Wrath of the Lich King expansion

[caladein]

Death Knight: The Jedi comparisons are just knee-jerk, as Jedi was an alpha class from the get-go. Even in the Arena DK doesn't sound that awesome: fixed DPS over the long term (runes have relatively constant regen timers so it's a customizable energy mechanic), summonable pets that probably won't be any stronger then the Water Elemental, and a dispelable 6s healing lockout on a 5 minute cooldown, sign me the fuck up. It might make melee-based matrices a bit more attractive though at the least. On it being unlockable, that's really just a cop-out for not having to balance it against pre-BC/-WotLK content, I'll give you that. That said, how else do you give someone an instant Level N character besides making them play up to Level N+10 or 20? It's a case of "not a good solution, but there isn't really a better one" and people proceeding to bitch. (At least it's better then the Kheldians...)

On the whole, Death Knight sounds cool, but about the only person that was really excited about it in my guild could easily be described as "distracted by shiny objects".

Gear: Again, I don't think anyone has a decent solution assume you keep up "you = your gear". The same sorts of complaints were made around the release of BC (or even when the AQ20 books were added to trainers) and guess what: the hardcore kept raiding and everyone else got some shiny loot.

It's more of the same... that has given them subscription numbers equivalent to the population of Sweden and you expect them to fuck with it why?

[Ironwood]

Obviously, we'll hear more as it becomes available, but Inscription pretty much HAS to be 'You can write scrolls until you hit 450 skill at which point you get the ability to change one of your spellbook skills.  Oh, and it's a drop.  A Legendary One.  From Arthas'.

Otherwise, as someone else pointed out, WHY WOULDN'T YOU WANT THIS SKILL ?

It'd be a must have.

[Ratama]

Meh, it'll probably be like the other tradeskills; you'll be able to add runes/inscriptions to other folk's abilities.  Actual Runesmiths/Inscribers will probably just get a couple token 'uber' inscriptions for their personal use.

But yeah, most of these expansion details so far reek of ass (of cat).  Tom Chilton and Jeff Kaplan must be the dumbest motherfuckers in the whole goddamn MMOG industry; they're *giving* WAR and AoC the openings needed to become the Next Big Thing, all for the sake of subsidizing the raiding lifestyle of their old gaming buddies.

[CassandraR]

I think you people are mildly insane. They said the content spread of the new expansion would be similar to BC and it was 80% solo and small group content or more. How in the world is that catering to raiders?

[Jayce]

Tom Chilton and Jeff Kaplan must be the dumbest motherfuckers in the whole goddamn MMOG industry; they're *giving* WAR and AoC the openings needed to become the Next Big Thing, all for the sake of subsidizing the raiding lifestyle of their old gaming buddies.

Yep, their decisions so far have cost untold millions of subscribers.  It's only up to 9 million now instead of the ONE THOUSAND MILLION it could have been.

I think that gives them the, how do you call it, benefit of the doubt.

Once WAR and AoC  hit 9 million subscribers, I'll fly over and buy drinks for Ironwood.   :-D

[Merusk]

Blizz did say that all future games would be MMORPGS and so we are likely seeing the last table scraps of pre-MMORPG thinking at this company with SC2. 

Vivendi said that, actually.  It's a question of how much "do this, or else!" pull VU has on their golden goose.

[Azazel]

I think Blizz are aware that if everything is a MMO, they'll be cannibalising their playerbase big time. Considering things like D2, or SC1 are still selling boxes quite happily, there may be a difference of opinion between Blizz and their ant overlords...

[Oban]

Why am I unable to pre-order the collector's edition from EB Games?

[Typhon]

Considering things like D2, or SC1 are still selling boxes quite happily, there may be a difference of opinion between Blizz and their ant overlords...

But why are D2 and SC1 still selling boxes?  I'd argue largely because each game has social components.  How many SC1 boxes are selling because of the single player game, versus the multiplayer game: I have no numbers, but my guess is the vast majority of boxes are sold because Korea is krazy for SC1 multiplayer.

D2 still sells because you can trade items online.  You can play online.  It's already an MMO game.

Saying "all games will be MMO game", isn't the same as saying, "all games will be MMORPG games in the style of WoW".  I haven't seen the exact quote, but my guess is that they intended to say the former.  It's pretty clear that they have had this thinking for a long time - War2, SC1, D2 and now WoW is the continuation of a trend toward games that have an increasing mulitiplayer component.  My guess is that SC2 will have much more multiplayer baked-in then any of the other RTS offering to date (ladder, player ranking, additional multiplayer-game types, etc).  I wouldn't be surprised to see co-op play available throughout the campaign.

[jpark]

I got to 70 in BC and saw no reason to play until levels 71-80 are available, if I can catch up to the raiders that easily.

When you think about it - in aggregate - arena pvp gear is easily on par with T5 gear even though some attributes do not directly compare.  For all intents and purposes - not sure about you guys - but as I knew no one who made it into Naxx at 60, I don't expect anyone I know to make it into black temple at 70.  That is likely true for most players making raiding a waste of time compared to arena rewards.

[Oban]

But why are D2 and SC1 still selling boxes?  I'd argue largely because each game has social components.  How many SC1 boxes are selling because of the single player game, versus the multiplayer game: I have no numbers, but my guess is the vast majority of boxes are sold because Korea is krazy for SC1 multiplayer.

I bought a copy of D2 because it was the only game I could find that would work on my Mac while traveling in an area without broadband.

[ajax34i]

My wild unfounded theory about DK's is that the Lich King is corrupting willing Alliance and Horde characters to become Scourge, more or less.  I would find it hilarious if part of the DK deal is Hated rep with all of Azeroth (and maybe Outlands too), so that you can't even set foot as a DK in those old zones.  Or, if you do, you'll be flagged by the first random guard and open to PVP by both sides.

Also, some sort of plot twist when the next next expansion hits, whereby if the Lich King still lives, all DK's fall fully under his mind control (you lose your character), and if he is killed on the server, the DK's lose all their powers (your character becomes worthless).

[Threash]

My wild unfounded theory about DK's is that the Lich King is corrupting willing Alliance and Horde characters to become Scourge, more or less.

Well they did mention the quest would have you interacting with Arthas.

[sinij]

I think WoW can get away with massive amount of fuck-ups due to sheer size. Additionally WoW is first mmorpg for A LOT of people, and in your first game you will put up with LOTS of crap and not quit... That is why Bliz can get away with crap like reputation grind, attunements and other vestigial leftovers of EQ age while other companies forced to evolve less annoying DIKU cloning techniques.

WoW served its purpose, just like UO demonstrated that mmorpg can be commercially successful, WoW took that to whole new level and in process introduced masses to mmorpgs. From there on its just circling the drain, and as UO showed us it can take VERY long time.

I imagine WoW will be out there in 10 years and some people will be still griding rep to get into their level 150 epic 40 people marathon dungeon, but all of it is irrelevant today since industry moved on.

[Jayce]

I got to 70 in BC and saw no reason to play until levels 71-80 are available, if I can catch up to the raiders that easily.

When you think about it - in aggregate - arena pvp gear is easily on par with T5 gear even though some attributes do not directly compare.  For all intents and purposes - not sure about you guys - but as I knew no one who made it into Naxx at 60, I don't expect anyone I know to make it into black temple at 70.  That is likely true for most players making raiding a waste of time compared to arena rewards.

I still don't get how gear you raid for/quest for/whatever is a waste of time if invalidated by the next expansion.  Are you trying to get your final set of armor and weapon and then just login to look at yourself ever day?

If you're not having fun obtaining it, then you need help.

[WindupAtheist]

He just wants to achieve Final Uberness, beat the game, and quit, but those bastards at Blizzard just keep adding more crap.  It's like they don't want him to quit or something.

[Paelos]

I still don't get how gear you raid for/quest for/whatever is a waste of time if invalidated by the next expansion.  Are you trying to get your final set of armor and weapon and then just login to look at yourself ever day?

If you're not having fun obtaining it, then you need help.

Yeah I don't get this mentality either. It's like people I knew that left our alliance when we were raiding MC to go get BWL gear with a group that had it on farm. Then, they got all their gear, and I never saw them again. Raiding isn't about the gear, because once you actually have it, the game becomes really really stupid. You have literally nothing to do at that point. The only reason I raid is because I like the new challenges, I like hanging out with ~20 of the 25 people I raid with, and I enjoy having a schedule so that I know I'm going to be doing something fun immediately when I log on. The gear is just really a side-effect of success, and nothing more than a stepping stone to the next wave of raiding content. That's why I don't give a shit if it's replaced in the expansion or not. I wasn't using it to become awesome forever, I was using it to beat the next guy in the line.

[Fabricated]

I still don't get how gear you raid for/quest for/whatever is a waste of time if invalidated by the next expansion.  Are you trying to get your final set of armor and weapon and then just login to look at yourself ever day?

If you're not having fun obtaining it, then you need help.

Yeah I don't get this mentality either. It's like people I knew that left our alliance when we were raiding MC to go get BWL gear with a group that had it on farm. Then, they got all their gear, and I never saw them again. Raiding isn't about the gear, because once you actually have it, the game becomes really really stupid. You have literally nothing to do at that point. The only reason I raid is because I like the new challenges, I like hanging out with ~20 of the 25 people I raid with, and I enjoy having a schedule so that I know I'm going to be doing something fun immediately when I log on. The gear is just really a side-effect of success, and nothing more than a stepping stone to the next wave of raiding content. That's why I don't give a shit if it's replaced in the expansion or not. I wasn't using it to become awesome forever, I was using it to beat the next guy in the line.

Ditto here. I transferred some Pre-Made toons to the PTR, and I spent very little time staring at my gear after I got everything socketed and equipped the way I wanted it. And this was with toons in Tier 6 sporting top-end Arena gear and other raiding epics. I just wanted to get my stuff together and go check some content out since the gear cockblock was handily smashed for me.

I did a pug ZG "Fun Run" where we attempted to kill Hakkar without killing any of his aspects. We almost did it, but after 2 more wipes we decided to just stomp the rest of the instance flat. It was a lot of fun doing all the fights and seeing if we could break boss encounters or kill bosses before they enter X phase for the first time.

Getting gear upgrades in regular play is always nice though. You look different and kick a bit more ass. At least Blizzard is doing one thing right that even the 5-man encounters with their largely no-name throwaway lore bosses make you feel badass. Sure some sexless children in <UBER RAID GUILD> are killing all the important lore characters in BT, but I have to say Murmur's Hall in the Shadow Labs feels pretty fucking epic.

[Trippy]

But why are D2 and SC1 still selling boxes?  I'd argue largely because each game has social components.  How many SC1 boxes are selling because of the single player game, versus the multiplayer game: I have no numbers, but my guess is the vast majority of boxes are sold because Korea is krazy for SC1 multiplayer.

Koreans don't buy boxes -- they download everything.

[Tale]

I still don't get how gear you raid for/quest for/whatever is a waste of time if invalidated by the next expansion.  Are you trying to get your final set of armor and weapon and then just login to look at yourself ever day?

If you're not having fun obtaining it, then you need help.

The problem is not lack of fun, the problem is amount of time spent on one source of fun. And I don't buy the "why raid when you can get the stuff as arena rewards" thing as an alternative - it means the same or more time spent.

I would have fun playing WoW as a raider/PvPer. But it would be a lifestyle choice, committing a lot of time to one thing. It's not a matter of lacking that time - I could arrange my life to spend that time in WoW if I wanted to - but frankly I consider it too much time on one source of fun if there's no reward for loyalty.

I can for example play LoTRO instead (which all my WoW friends are doing) or use my free time for a variety of other activities. And having had fun doing that, I can come back to WoW for levels 71-80 and have a burst of fun doing that, and my character will still have kept up with people who spent all that time in WoW.

Because no matter what you say, it's not all about the fun aspect. It's about a sense of progress and achievement gained from success in chasing raid/PvP rewards. You gain visible markers and gameplay advantages from team or individual success. You had the team co-ordination for Blackwing Lair raids and/or the discipline for PvP victories, while others failed, so you are rewarded by becoming more powerful. And as you add more power, you become able to attempt even bigger things.

My past diku gaming experience says if you haven't managed those achievements in one expansion, you will not be able to tackle the high-end challenges in the next expansion. It was all one big journey along a path of perceived progress. Therefore in past games, the reward for sticking with one game was significantly greater. But in WoW, it seems there is no need to prepare for the next expansion. All the old raid dungeons became pointless on the launch of BC. There was no need to have made any progress between dinging 60 and entering the gate to Outland.

I found that bizarre. I enjoyed playing BC to 70, but in the knowledge that skipping the WoW raid/PvP game won't change anything, a variety of fun is the spice of life. My character will apparently be equal to yours with no effort on my part, so any progress you make in the meantime will be meaningless. It would be wonderfully ironic if we discover that is not the case on the launch of WotLK and you all laugh at me for not having played through BC.

[Trippy]

My past diku gaming experience says if you haven't managed those achievements in one expansion, you will not be able to tackle the high-end challenges in the next expansion. It was all one big journey along a path of perceived progress. Therefore in past games, the reward for sticking with one game was significantly greater. But in WoW, it seems there is no need to prepare for the next expansion. All the old raid dungeons became pointless on the launch of BC. There was no need to have made any progress between dinging 60 and entering the gate to Outland.

I found that bizarre. I enjoyed playing BC, but in the knowledge that skipping the WoW raid/PvP game won't change anything, a variety of fun is the spice of life. My character will apparently be equal to yours with no effort on my part, so any progress you make in the meantime will be meaningless. It would be wonderfully ironic if we discover that is not the case on the launch of WotLK and you all laugh at me for not having played through BC.

They do that to make it easier for raiders who stopped playing to play again.

[Sogrinaugh]

He just wants to achieve Final Uberness, beat the game, and quit, but those bastards at Blizzard just keep adding more crap.  It's like they don't want him to quit or something.

I'd type LoL but thats internet bullshit.  Real Laugh came from that one.

Blizzard has effectively put human effort itself on deminishing returns.  The harder you grind to achieve any given thing, the more intensely and completly wasted your efforts will be if the process itself was not enjoyable.

Their is something both enlightening and scary about that.  The human condition, etc etc.

The death knight thing.  Having read a chat transcript about this from blizzard, it basically sounds like a solution to The Tank Problem.  DK's apparently tank with 2 handed swords/axes or dual-wielding.  Its a way to get all the arms/fury monkies to enjoy doing something useful. 

[Paelos]

I found that bizarre. I enjoyed playing BC to 70, but in the knowledge that skipping the WoW raid/PvP game won't change anything, a variety of fun is the spice of life. My character will apparently be equal to yours with no effort on my part, so any progress you make in the meantime will be meaningless. It would be wonderfully ironic if we discover that is not the case on the launch of WotLK and you all laugh at me for not having played through BC.

You are saying the effort is meaningless like people only raid to become powerful forever. They don't, we just explained that. They raid because they want to be the best they can be during the current time period. Then, they shed those trappings at the expansion reset and sort of start over, except now they are a coordinated unit with gear advantages in the early leveling pool, and they know how to work together in raids for the next set of instances.

Besides, Why the hell would you want to play a game where a set of gear you got in the last expansion would never be upgraded in the next one by the first raid? Why would you want to bypass all that new content? There'd be no point in grabbing new gear at all or trying new challenges.

[Ratama]

Yep, their decisions so far have cost untold millions of subscribers.  It's only up to 9 million now instead of the ONE THOUSAND MILLION it could have been.

Their decisions have cost Blizzard millions of customers, yes.  If they'd realized WoW's real potential as the Waremart of MMO's, their domestic subscriber be higher than it is now.  How much higher doesn't really matter; the point is they've cost their company $$$.

But instead they've decided to make the premium content of WoW available only to the elite handful (you know, like the encounter with the NPC *on the fucking BC box*); and yes, that's fucking stupid, and so are you if you can't see how vulnerable that leaves WoW.

I think you people are mildly insane. They said the content spread of the new expansion would be similar to BC and it was 80% solo and small group content or more. How in the world is that catering to raiders?

Because that 80% isn't the Good Shit.

The best rewards, best boss encounters, and majority of the development dollars are strictly reserved for the Catassing Few.

[Tale]

You are saying the effort is meaningless like people only raid to become powerful forever. They don't, we just explained that.

I don't think I said that. I said that in my experience of other dikus, you needed to have gone through some past content in order to have the stuff required to tackle the newest raid content. Otherwise you wipe. That doesn't mean people raid to become powerful forever, it means there's a longer journey to the high end of raiding that doesn't begin with the latest content.

There's nothing wrong with that. Older raid content is just as much of an adventure for guilds who start the raiding progression years later. Being at the high end of new raid content is for FoH catasses. Being an expansion or two behind FoH in raiding is fine - the rest of the new expansion is just as much available to you as everyone else, it's just the raiding content that you can't reach, but you're on your way.

They raid because they want to be the best they can be during the current time period. Then, they shed those trappings at the expansion reset and sort of start over, except now they are a coordinated unit with gear advantages in the early leveling pool, and they know how to work together in raids for the next set of instances.

Yes. And that's the concept that sucks. Because "at least you know how to work as a team" is not enough reward for past efforts. Putting everyone back on level footing with each expansion is plain rude to the people who had progressed further.

Besides, Why the hell would you want to play a game where a set of gear you got in the last expansion would never be upgraded in the next one by the first raid?

The missing link in your question is my point above - a first raid in the new expansion would only be feasible for people who have already geared up in the old raid content (if you don't have good enough gear, you can't win), so yes there are upgrades on the first raid.

The gap between a non-raider's gear and a raider's gear was very large at the end of original WoW. There was plenty of room to keep new non-raid gear weaker than old world raid gear, but stronger than old world non-raid gear, while offering upgrades to raiders from new raid zones.

Instead, they obliterated most of the existing raiders' achievements by making giant upgrades easily available from levelling quests, allowing new raiders to step right into the new raiding content, starting a whole new progression line and abandoning past raid content.

[Paelos]

The missing link in your question is my point above - a first raid in the new expansion would only be feasible for people who have already geared up in the old raid content (if you don't have good enough gear, you can't win), so yes there are upgrades on the first raid.

The gap between a non-raider's gear and a raider's gear was very large at the end of original WoW. There was plenty of room to keep new non-raid gear weaker than old world raid gear, but stronger than old world non-raid gear, while offering upgrades to raiders from new raid zones.

Instead, they obliterated most of the existing raiders' achievements by making giant upgrades easily available from levelling quests, allowing new raiders to step right into the new raiding content, starting a whole new progression line and abandoning past raid content.

Yeah, of course they did. Why in the hell would you ever hand out dozens and dozens of new quests, instances, and levels, and then go "Oh yeah, but if you want to raid the good stuff you just bought in the expansion, you still have to slog through all of MC, BWL, and Naxx, and get all the gear." What you are suggesting isn't feasible unless they decided not to raise the level cap. Then, it just becomes about rolling out new instances to tack on for the new raiding line, and you never get beyond level 60. Then, if they do that, what is the point of using the new zones? Questing for cash in 10 different areas? The only reason those zones hold up in Outland is because they are level-based for progression. If you object to the fact that they raised the level cap at all, I suppose I can see your point, but once they made that call, it was inevitable that giant upgrades were going to happen. The only solution would be to keep upgrades at level 70 worse than Tier 1 stuff, thus forcing everyone to keep running MC (which makes no sense), or to have some sort of quest that auto-upgrades all the Tier 1 to "Level 70 Tier 1" and then subsequently retool all the old content to appropriate levels.

Again, why bother with any of that? Did they lose raiders because they were pissed off about their work getting "wiped out?" I think deep down this doesn't even bother raiders at all, because the alternative is after two expansions, you'd effectively cut the throat on new players or alts, and you've got a raiding backlog with other players who can't possibly get to even the next expansion's raids. As a company, you'd be psychotic to release a bunch of great new stuff in an expansion and not let your playerbase touch it until they completed the hardest of the hardcore in the last one.

[Phred]

Then of course, there's also the "new shiny" factor.  Much like the hopes for AoC, despite it being run by what used to be seen as the largest bunch of inept twits ever to launch an MMO.

Which of course it still is. Just covered up a little better now.

[WindupAtheist]

I subbed to WoW for three months, had fun, and quit when I was done.  I beat the game.  The catass who grinds his soul to dust so he can be the ultimate in uberness for a little while until the expansion is beaten by the game.

[Paelos]

I subbed to WoW for three months, had fun, and quit when I was done.  I beat the game.  The catass who grinds his soul to dust so he can be the ultimate in uberness for a little while until the expansion is beaten by the game.

Well, yeah. The uberest of the uber will always be dominated by their obsessions. I was referring to the other 80% of raiders who just like to kill new bosses for kicks and the "Wheeee, it's finally dead" factor.

[Tale]

Yeah ...
... one.

I hereby agree to disagree. I want the worth of WoW raiders' successes to carry over into an expansion more like they did in EverQuest, and you don't.

[Ironwood]

That's not a disagreement over the facts tho;  that's merely you expressing a lunatic preference.

 

[Tale]

I agree to disagree with you, too!

[Jayce]

I think you people are mildly insane. They said the content spread of the new expansion would be similar to BC and it was 80% solo and small group content or more. How in the world is that catering to raiders?

Because that 80% isn't the Good Shit.

The best rewards, best boss encounters, and majority of the development dollars are strictly reserved for the Catassing Few.

Majority of the development dollars?  So you're saying that it costs more money and development dollars to come up with a harder boss?  I think you don't understand game design very well. The developers don't have to beat the boss themselves to convince it to sit still for players. They just script it like any other boss.

On your other point, I think you just entered circular-argument-land.  The stuff you can't get will always be the Good Shit.  This follows from a saying about grass being greener somewhere.  Personally, I don't consider something you have to spend 10 hours a day, 7 days a week to get to, which is no more purple than my Kara and heroic purples, to be the Good Shit.

[Ironwood]

You wanna see my Heroic Purple ?

[Oban]