Pirates of the Burning Sea- OPEN BETA!

[Abelian75]

One of the things that I find pretty encouraging about this game is how straightforward most of the dev communication has been.  They seem extremely BS-free.  I really liked how one of the patch notes during that last stress test thing was like, "Avatar combat sort of sucks right now."  That's awesome.  Definitely gives me a sense of optimism for the future of the game right off the bat, as bizarre as that might sound.

I'm pretty sure I'm gonna be playing this, at least for a little while.  I hope it does well, if only because it truly is something different (even if it does rubberband you! *grrr*).

Also, please say that slow-ass mouselook has been changed.  Please, god, please.  Just tweak the constant.  Tweak it!

[qedetc]

The auction houses need to display how many of an item are offered for what price.  Until this happens, I will detest them.  Also buy listings.  Bid/ask pls.


edit for abelian75, in your settings you can change how fast mouse camera movement things work, i think.

[tmp]

They seem extremely BS-free.  I really liked how one of the patch notes during that last stress test thing was like, "Avatar combat sort of sucks right now."  That's awesome.

It's not. They *know* the mechanics suck, but still put it in rather than prototype something that's actually fun in-house before developing it further. If they were misguided and honestly believed it's good enough to be part of the game perhaps it'd be better, different strokes and all that. Putting bullshit in your game when you're perfectly aware it's bullshit? There's nothing awesome about it.

[WayAbvPar]

Actually we're extending open beta until the 1st:

http://www.burningsea.com/page/news/article&article_id=10512

Dammit. Now I will have to play. I was taking a few days off since beta was ending...

[Abelian75]

It's not. They *know* the mechanics suck, but still put it in rather than prototype something that's actually fun in-house before developing it further. If they were misguided and honestly believed it's good enough to be part of the game perhaps it'd be better, different strokes and all that. Putting bullshit in your game when you're perfectly aware it's bullshit? There's nothing awesome about it.

What.  That was several months ago, and the note went on to say that they were revamping it but the changes weren't in yet.  I mean, yeah, ideally every game would be perfect without any failings, but if there is a failing, I'd rather they acknowledge that it is a failing rather than pretending everything is awesome.

I don't think they were like, "I know, let's make this boring mechanic."  More likely they thought it would be cool, and ended up realizing it wasn't all that cool yet and needed some work.  I don't see anything wrong with that.

[tmp]

I don't think they were like, "I know, let's make this boring mechanic."  More likely they thought it would be cool, and ended up realizing it wasn't all that cool yet and needed some work.  I don't see anything wrong with that.

I see it somewhat odd because it implies either the piece of mechanics was rolled into complete beta package without prior simpler prototype which should've been enough to tell them at in-house stage that yes, the gameplay for that particular aspect is shit and it should be fixed there and then before pushing it further... or that there was some prototyping, they did realize it's shit but decided to put it in the beta anyway. Neither strikes me as reasonable development path but then it can certainly be just me.

[Xanthippe]

I just figured out that I can get things called "pennants" off of ships that are "derelicts" - ships that I've either destroyed or boarded/killed the captain.  I also get dubloons and experience when I "capture" a ship in this fashion.  I just learned this at level 14.  Somehow I managed to miss learning it as soon as I could do it (level 5 or 10?).

I can turn in these pennants, 10 at a time, for experience or other rewards.  I think that Privateers can turn them in 5 at a time for the same stuff but I might not understand this correctly.  If I do, then wtf?  Why make it so much easier to level as a privateer?  Makes no sense to me.

I was just levelling via quests, many of which had stories to read and so on, but the experience just seemed so low.  I guess it wouldn't have been had I been correctly capturing ships and getting pennants.

I just hit level 16 on my freetrader and the quests went from me breezing through to very difficult, all of a sudden.  Too many ships, not enough allies, can't seem to board quick enough, can't seem to take out them ships quick enough, can't seem to escape from the mission without my ship sinking.  I don't know if I've just hit a string of bad quests or if my character is completely gimped, but 3 missions in a row, the lowest level ones I have, are just kicking my ass.  Maybe I've got 3 really really hard quests or maybe I really really suck.  There's no difficulty curve, it's a difficult cliff.

[taolurker]

I just figured out that I can get things called "pennants" off of ships that are "derelicts" - ships that I've either destroyed or boarded/killed the captain.  I also get dubloons and experience when I "capture" a ship in this fashion.  I just learned this at level 14.  Somehow I managed to miss learning it as soon as I could do it (level 5 or 10?).

I can turn in these pennants, 10 at a time, for experience or other rewards.  I think that Privateers can turn them in 5 at a time for the same stuff but I might not understand this correctly.  If I do, then wtf?  Why make it so much easier to level as a privateer?  Makes no sense to me.

This mechanic is actually something all the classes can do, except pirates who can claim the ship iteself to sail. The pennants quests don't have very good rewards, compared to the Navy commendations, but if you're a privateer you also can get these commendations by getting the grease the wheels skill. 25 of the lowest Commendations gets a decent ship deed you can sell or use, and only 5 commendations you can get the Tales of Adventure (experience book).

I was just levelling via quests, many of which had stories to read and so on, but the experience just seemed so low.  I guess it wouldn't have been had I been correctly capturing ships and getting pennants.

Doing quests certainly isn't the best way to level, and once you get a bigger, better ship closer to your level, many of the smaller quests aren't going to reward much experience. Lower level ships you fight will be best fought when piloting a lower level ship. I have been leveling mostly in the open seas, in a group starting Unrest around ports, and every time I go spend time doing that I can usually get a level without thinking about it.

I just hit level 16 on my freetrader and the quests went from me breezing through to very difficult, all of a sudden.  Too many ships, not enough allies, can't seem to board quick enough, can't seem to take out them ships quick enough, can't seem to escape from the mission without my ship sinking.  I don't know if I've just hit a string of bad quests or if my character is completely gimped, but 3 missions in a row, the lowest level ones I have, are just kicking my ass.  Maybe I've got 3 really really hard quests or maybe I really really suck.  There's no difficulty curve, it's a difficult cliff.

Well, it mostly depends on where the quests you're taking is, and as you move between each city the quests will get progressively higher level based. The last few quests in each city do get harder than most of the other ones in their city/level, but most of them really shouldn't be hard unless they are group quests or you are still using your lower level ship for level 16 based quests. As a level 16 freetrader you should be sailing a Lexington Brig for combating, and anything else will probably make missions harder for you.

[Xanthippe]

Thanks for the info.

I think I need to be 17 for the Lexington, so next level.

Now, I have some questions about port battles and so on.  As a free trader, I don't want to piss anyone off, right?  So how do I go about port contention battles and so on without losing rep?

I don't quite understand how free traders level efficiently - this is why I've been sticking to missions mostly.  I've battled pirates a little bit outside (the npc pirates).

I haven't done any pvp at all - I'm not even sure that I want to on a free trader, what with protecting my rep and all.

[taolurker]

Yah, it is 17 for the Lexington, but that's definitely one you should be looking into. I also forgot all about the Van Hoorn Snow, which is a 12 ship (with fore and aft cannons), which probably would've been one to use in that mid space (and I should remember that since I've sold those almost as fast as the Mediator Cutters when I made them). A large shipping vessel to look into is a Flute (I checked and they're 14).

As far as port battles, you can increase one faction by fighting the other, so if you attack a British trade convoy it'll raise your French trader faction... So basically in order to move into contention with a freetrader you basically should go from one faction to the other. I haven't done Freetrader, and right now am a Naval Officer who is manufacturing small/medium ships but mostly  ship upgrades, so I basically can't advise too much on how a freetrader works. I can tell you that working the economy is important and freetraders can sell in other nations auction houses, so keeping a close eye on faction is important but I wouldn't worry about it that much.

Getting in a group to battle NPCs or PvP are things a freetrader can be good at, and they do have decent buffing ability, but if you're mostly soloing you may do better with missions than going solo versus enemies. I think the grouping part is what I like most about this game, and I've done everything from 3-6 man group ganking trade ships, to 6 on 6 Pvp, even once getting in a port battle, so I can say Freetraders do fine combat wise.

Lots of info on the wiki that you might look at, and certainly if you aren't working the economy and are doing only missions what are you waiting for??

My naval officer wishes he could sell, or even visit enemy auction houses, and you also can look at the global auction house, pick a product that'll sell at profit, plus ship it anywhere in a huge cargo vessel... None of which I can do.

[Tmon]

Yah, it is 17 for the Lexington, but that's definitely one you should be looking into. I also forgot all about the Van Hoorn Snow, which is a 12 ship (with fore and aft cannons), which probably would've been one to use in that mid space (and I should remember that since I've sold those almost as fast as the Mediator Cutters when I made them). A large shipping vessel to look into is a Flute (I checked and they're 14).

I really liked the idea of this game but reading about ships and levels sucks away any will I have to actually buy it when it launches. Are trade skills limited by levels as well?

[taolurker]

There essentially are no trade skills, it's an "economy" and the deciding factors for crafting is setting up a warehouse and structures which can create things (from resources located in only certain ports). The economy tutorial actually gives you the first warehouse and 2 basic structures free, as well as a free ship deed and the next structure deed which you can choose.

There are recipe books, which are random drops (except for freetraders who can get them from some sort of turn in or quest, I'm not sure about) and then also recipes that come with structures when you build them. Structures create manufactured items by combining resources and labor, and the labor gathers over real time, but it also costs a set price to create something. Example Iron ingots are required to make cannons, and you make ingots in a Forge structure, you need iron ore (mined from an iron mine structure at money/labor cost) and Limestone (limestone quarry structure), along with 4 hours of labor, and 640 doubloons to craft 10 of them. 10 iron ingots makes 5 small cannons, via the weaponsmith structure, with similar different outlays of labor and money. Basically the only restriction is having the structures and money to craft (or accrue resources) along with the labor.

So crafting isn't level based, and I don't see level based ships being a problem as there's skill, bonuses (upgrades/outfitting), tactics, and teamwork involved in ship combat, as well as needing to actually buy or have a ship crafted, being the obstacles to level equaling uber.

late edit to correct a number I had wrong

[Tmon]

Thanks for the info, I don't care so much if level=uber what turns me off is having to level via combat so that I can play the economy game. 

[Xanthippe]

Yes, this doesn't make sense to me either. 

I just got the skill for being able to see all of the auction houses, and I've sailed around into other nationalities' ports to check them out.  The problem is that I've given up on battle skills to do that, but I wanted to check it out and see what it's like.

I really wish there were more Fed Ex quests for free traders, because really, that's why I want to play.  I enjoy going from place to place picking up and delivering goods.  I'm not so crazy about battling on my trader.  I have thought about making a battling character as well - a privateer or a naval officer - but that's a big maybe.  The levelling curve seems a little too level.

There's a plethora of quests, some very easy and some very difficult.  Getting blown up on a quest is a drag, especially when you can't run out of the quest before it's done.

This game has definitely captivated me.

[taolurker]

There are a couple of "Fed-ex" quests, at the auction house in your nation's Item shop, and Freetraders also get experience for some things they create in the economy by crafting. The devs even said that you can get about 20% of the experience total needed to reach level 50 by doing just the devlivery quests.

You still are a ship captain though, and probably should partake in some sort of combat, especially if you want to not be easy prey for someone who tries to target you as a Freetrader. I'm thinking it's better to encourage balance in doing both, than just focusing on not fighting and deliveries, but since naval combat is what the game is mostly about why would you want to not fight anyway?

[Tmon]

I don't want to not fight, I just don't want to have to fight simply to improve my ability to conduct trade.  It seems silly to me that my ability to sail a large cargo ship depends on my being able to sink or capture ships in numbers greater than the most bloodthirsty pirates who ever lived.

[Soln]

Someone want to scorecard PotBS?

1. Stability -- does it work?  really?

2. Design -- grindathon or gankathon?  no, really.  Anything to really bring you back?

3. Look -- polished or still rogue pixels, rough edges?

4. Community -- madness or just manic teenagers?  What's the temperature of the people?2

Thank you and good night!

[SnakeCharmer]

The last time I put some serious effort in beta, which admittedly was more than a few months ago, it was:
1.  Stable.  Did not have any CTDs, no BSOD, it ran very smoothly.  A few hiccups here and there, but nothing out of the ordinary.  This was on my old machine (AMD 2400+, 2 gb RAM, ATI V700 Pro video card). 
2.  A bit of both, actually.  The grind wasn't that bad.
3.  Pretty polished.  Nice style to it.
4.  General community attitude was pretty even keel (har...).  Temperature was normal, perhaps a bit cooler than most.  Seemed to be a fairly mature crowd. 

Jumped in fairly recently and thought it was even better than it was before.  I thought they'd optomized well, the graphics seemed to have been smoothed out even more - but this is probably more of a side effect of my new machine.  Leveled to 18-20 on two different characters and didn't have any gamebreaking bugs. 

[Tannhauser]

Someone want to scorecard PotBS?

1. Stability -- does it work?  really?
  I haven't had any issues, rock solid.

2. Design -- grindathon or gankathon?  no, really.  Anything to really bring you back?
  I'm 16 and a bit of a grind is starting to settle in.  It does keep my playing though.

3. Look -- polished or still rogue pixels, rough edges?
  No comment, my comp runs it at lowest settings because it's old.

4. Community -- madness or just manic teenagers?  What's the temperature of the people?2
  On Rackham/French it's a very mature community; almost everyone has 'authentic' French names, but the population is low.
 
  It's free, why not give it a whirl?

[KyanMehwulfe]

Great info, guys. It'll still come down to whether or not I'm in a lull with other games I think, but I'm definitely leaning toward playing it at release -- if only for the 1 month 'honeymoon' -- if I'm not too busy. I like what I've read here about the RvR (faction PvP, whatever; damn trademarks) and economy.

[Tmon]

Since the beta got extended I went ahead and did the download and have been playing for a couple days off and on.  I'm playing a free trader and can see that it isn't completely level bound, but there are some hard level limits that will limit what you can produce.  It looks like the advanced recipes require you to be level 30 to use them, which is a bit of a pain.  Also, the free trader class seems to get a lot of skills for avoiding combat and speeding up their movement on the world map but again those have level limits and of course ships are level limited so you have to level to get faster ships.  So to get better at avoiding combat you have to spend what looks like a lot of time fighting.  There is a ton of stuff to do as a trader and you could probably make a fair amount of money without having to grind levels but it would be a very slow process.  On the up side ship combat is fun and it looks like this is the kind of game that will reward my penchant for dinking around with no apparent purpose or goal so I'll probably end up buying it and playing it for a while.

[Aez]

Someone want to scorecard PotBS?

1. Stability -- does it work?  really?

2. Design -- grindathon or gankathon?  no, really.  Anything to really bring you back?

3. Look -- polished or still rogue pixels, rough edges?

4. Community -- madness or just manic teenagers?  What's the temperature of the people?2

Thank you and good night!

5. Leet - - Can I be Johnny Depp?

[Venkman]

End of beta event details

I haven't been back to the beta in quite awhile. Way too many distractions at the end of the year. So I'm surprised it's only now that the level cap is removed. Typical for the genre unfortunately, but given the endgame for PotBS, I don't know if it's going to be as much an issue as your run of the mill PvE grind. And focusing on polish for the early and mid game is very important for the first-impression crowd (though how many beyond those already in beta remains to be seen).

I love the surprise over the XP books and doubloons though. They did this back in September too. Fun having one of those big ships and fully fleshed out character. But that they just removed the cap now hints that there just aren't that many abilities at 50, or at least, not many working or balanced.

I won't be pre-ordering nor buying it anytime soon, but I am interested in checking back when I have more time and its more complete. I'm specifically interested to see whether this game appeals to a different Eve-like-but-not-playing-Eve crowd, or it grabs a new audience. I assume a good cross-section of folks will at least check it out, just have no idea who'll be staying and how the game will evolve to keep them.

[Tannhauser]

I won't be buying the game at release either.  It's just not polished enough.
-Ship combat is fun, but some missions are wildly hard, even on easiest setting
-Nothing to do on the Open Sea, I'd like to see wrecks or mysterious islands or fog banks (this IS the Bermuda Triangle)
-Melee combat has grown a bit on me, I like the basic idea, but it needs lots more polish.
-I haven't sold much at all in the AH, had to close down my winery :(.  But maybe thats because it's beta.
-I guess this game doesn't hold your hand as much as WoW, but finding new quests was frustrating until I stumbled into Pensacola on other business.  I do like how you can stand at the coxswain and knock several out in a row (well those that are somewhat balanced in difficulty).

I'll definitely keep an eye on it though, they have a real gem here, just need to polish it up so it shines.

[WayAbvPar]

Server list


Anyone playing at launch? Any preferences? I am thinking anything besides Blackbeard and Rackham should be ok.

[gimpyone]

I'll be playing at launch.  My society hasn't picked out a server yet though.

[sidereal]

I'll probably setup a Frenchy on Bonny

[taolurker]

Server list


Anyone playing at launch? Any preferences? I am thinking anything besides Blackbeard and Rackham should be ok.

I already have my pre-order box, so was planning on the head start pre-order (with launch/release as 80% likely), and the societies I was friendly with plus one I'm a member of, joining Rackham at launch. I might make an alt to join an F13 group, depending on how many people are actually involved with this game.

Is it going to release with some issues? Probably.. But overall I'm liking what I'm seeing and had plenty of fun, despite any issues I had.

[Merusk]

So I dicked around with the open beta New Year's weekend.  Fucker beat on my dual-core 2gig 12-month old machine something fierce.  To be sure, I do need to upgrade my vid card, but it's good enough to play TF2 and Hellgate without getting the lousy, lousy frame rate I got in Pirates.  The ships were beautifully detailed, but that's what killed everything. Tuurning things way down seemed to take away most of the game's appeal to me; The wonderful ships.  There's a catch-22 for ya. 

It was fun to dick-around with the level 50 variants for a bit, but without having played longer, I lacked the finer points of play and ship navigation.  Instead of wasting my time on high-level missions, I dicked around pwning the level 3-4 missions in my 2nd rate.  For those saying "it's not a Diku" it certainly felt like one as I was one-shotting sloops from close range.

Even in the 'elite - group mission only' mission when I was up against 11 other sloops they couldn't hurt me.   That's just wrong if it's not level-based mechanics. Am I missing something here, because it sure seems like it IS in fact another "hit max level to not be a noob" game.

Of course, that adds-in another problem.  At max level, exactly what do you do?  Perusing this thread it was seems there was a lack of anything to DO other than missions while leveling up and the pvp that would be pointless in anything but a level 50 ship.  It's not a real 'sandbox' (can't build forts/ expand the empire and lacks things to do outside of your instanced missions, right?) and it's not a 'cap out and do the endgame stuff' game.   So what is there to keep you around, besides "ok time to level up a freetrader!" ala CoX?

[Venkman]

That sure is a lot of dicking around 

Some could play SWG that way too. They didn't get the full experience, but that really doesn't matter if questing/adventuring was both what you were looking for and the weakest part. PotBS sorta suffers from this aspect as well. The "quests" are little more than advancement gates, though like WoW there are a few ongoing story-arcs that are interesting.

But what really is trying to set this one apart from the sorta-/almost-/couldabeen- like EQ1s out there is the virtual world/commerce/trade angle. Hard to experience that when a) ya get boosted to 50 (with those books); and, b) they just unlocked that level cap. This one is likely to launch with the same type of endgame that SWG had at launch: the one you create for yourself.

[Lantyssa]

There didn't feel like enough options to create content for yourself though.  Maybe I missed it by not making it far, but many of the economic goods seemed fairly pointless.  Who cares I can produce coco leaves?  Once you have plots set up, it's just about shifting resources to make the same few things repeatedly.  SWG had bits to keep one interested like planets so large one isn't likely to see it all, the shifting resource gathering, flexible professions (until CU and later), and JTL plus space loot.

It was a fun game, but there isn't enough that I found to keep the sandbox crowd interested.

[taolurker]

To Merusk:

I don't know why your souped up machine didn't run this fine, and my crappy just above minimum specs machine ran it and didn't have any issues or look that badly at all.

If you took your souped up level 50 ship into level 1-7 missions in the starting town, how could you actually expect that to represent anything you'd actually be doing with a level 50 ship?? You should've taken that ship out to look for high level quests or enemies, or PvP. I was out using the level 50 ships too, but was PvP'ing or doing things you'd normally do with them. Also, the high end Fourth through First rate ships are not going to be the norm, and those ships are actually going to be ultra expensive, rare, player craftables only, so maybe you'll see two of them per server.. I was in port battles and PvP'ing against other people in Invincibles, and no they aren't invincible.


To Darniaq:

SWG isn't anywhere comparible to this game, and if you just derailed this thread to an SWG bitchfest I will hunt you down and shoot cannons in your stern.


To Lantyssa:

There seemed like more than enough things to occupy players, especially in the economy, and I definitely don't think that you figured out all the recipes, resources or crafting options available, especially if you were growing cocoa (which is a commodity that is mostly usable for trade missions and not much else). I was making ships and ship upgrades (outfittings) and was not able to produce anywhere near enough of my own raw materials, and sold every single thing I put up for sale (within 24 hours). Before they started giving everyone a million doubloons, I was already on my way to having a half million without even trying.

The main draw of this game is PvP ship battles, or making an economic empire, and I agree neither of those seems like something that will keep most of the sandbox crowd interested, which is exactly why this will be a niche game.

I still think there was plenty of fun and interesting things available to do, and I for one don't expect the lack of high end "content" will be a drawback when Port battles are springing up all over the map.

[Venkman]

@Tao: The game is not like SWG. But it shares the same self-directed "endgame" that other virtual worldy like games do, in that it's not about the directed-content raids or contrived gladiatorial arenas. I reference SWG in particular here because at that launch people DID tey to play it as a straight EQ-with-Wookiees and were roundly disappointed by the many ways it was not. PotBS CAN be played as EQ-with-Peglegs, but I feel the results for players who tried that would be about the same. This is not a fantastic adventure PvE game imho.

[Lantyssa]

There seemed like more than enough things to occupy players, especially in the economy, and I definitely don't think that you figured out all the recipes, resources or crafting options available, especially if you were growing cocoa (which is a commodity that is mostly usable for trade missions and not much else). I was making ships and ship upgrades (outfittings) and was not able to produce anywhere near enough of my own raw materials, and sold every single thing I put up for sale (within 24 hours). Before they started giving everyone a million doubloons, I was already on my way to having a half million without even trying.

I saw all the recipies in the help files.  (That system was nice.)

Yes, there was a lot of stuff, but how useful was it?  Some was for trade missions like my cocoa example.  In theory I like limited production ability to encourage interaction, but how good an idea is it to swap out buildings versus making the same ten things?

Also, if you made half a million doubloons, in beta, I would argue the economy is going to melt down fast.  I don't see how that provides a sandbox experience, either.  It just means you're flithy rich.

[taolurker]

Yes, there was a lot of stuff, but how useful was it?  Some was for trade missions like my cocoa example.  In theory I like limited production ability to encourage interaction, but how good an idea is it to swap out buildings versus making the same ten things?

Also, if you made half a million doubloons, in beta, I would argue the economy is going to melt down fast.  I don't see how that provides a sandbox experience, either.  It just means you're flithy rich.

I made money because I was making numerous contacts, I joined a very economic slanted society, sold at reasonable prices compared to other people and also used the economy wisely. I don't think there will be a meltdown in the economy, but I do think that the economy is all about planning and knowing what to do with things... For instance, you can produce cocoa and trade it to the European Trade union for different things, that are useful, or might fill a gap in your production line (like say wine, cannons or other rare commodities). Someone in my society only grew cochineal (cactus beetles) but was able to turn that into wine, zinc or other things that were needed or sold better on the auction house.

I said above that this isn't a sandbox experience, and also said that the main draw is PvP. I will be playing to participate in 25 vs 25 port battles, PvP and the economy. I found more than enough of a fun and interesting play experiences, grouping with people, joining a society and making friends, that I'll enjoy going out using naval tactics, skills and economic know how to make my nation the most powerful (as well as to decimate people in PvP).

It's a niche game for sure, that's not a sandbox, but it has enough new and interesting things to do for the game to be worth playing for me... It's not for everyone, and if you're not into fighting other players or didn't enjoy the ship to ship combat, then it's probably not for you. I'm not looking for a sandbox "virtual world", just a fun MMO game that's playable, and IMO this game is those things. If you're looking for a sandbox, the only sand you'll find here is the beaches you sail past.


To Darniaq:

You mentioned SWG 2 more fucking times, you're an incredibly closed minded carebear, and SWG still continues to have an active PvP population of "end gamers" who don't play to do EQ with light sabers, but to show their superiority with that saber or weapon versus other saber peen wavers (PvP).

PotBS is plenty enough game for me to enjoy, and instead of peen waving a saber, I'll be peen waving a cannon.. Carebears won't like this game, hence why you won't enjoy it. Thanks for posting though, and attempting to derail the discussion some more.

PvP is the endgame, and maybe in a couple of months it''ll grow boring or will dilute some, but right now I'm looking at it like Shadowbane with ship combat, and I happened to enjoy it. They also are tuning high end content, and intend to add more after launch, so as it stands I'm setting sail.