Pirates of the Burning Sea- OPEN BETA!

[taolurker]

Wow, just wow (and not the damn MMO WoW)... Everyone just chill a bit and take a step back.

First, and foremost, the issue about the grinding to level 50, and them attempting to balance it slightly is not something that should be a concern. Just as many people are going to complain that leveling is too fast, as are going to claim it's too slow or not casual friendly, so I totally believe that the leveling curve will be done with both sets of people in mind. With the way that FLS has been responding to the players, I'm even more sure that this will be the case.

Even if there are people who are powergaming to level 50, one of the requirements of the high level game is getting better ships. With player built ships being the best ones in the game, and because they require significant resources and time to create on their own, even someone who powergames to 50 still might not be all that much more powerful than 2 level 25s who do have better "equipment" (let alone skill and tactics).

Where the casual gamer is concerned, and worried that leveling will become too slow, I totally don't see this being an issue, because they still can compete even without the level grind because of equipment + skill. A well organized society, or group of players, can definitely make as much of a difference toward eliminating grinds, and leveling slowdown, just by creating the better ships, upgrades and equipment.

The leveling right now is kind of easy if you're doing Open Sea combat, versus extremely higher level NPCs, but a big part of the "11 day grind" was the AI being kind of weak which has been getting tweaks. Also, note that some form of the level grind is going to exist whether or not anyone even feels it's too fast or too slow, because that's what makes it leveling.

I also fail to see a lack of a "high end game" because of the way port contention works, and PvP is actually designed to be the end game for high levels as well as low levels. Yes, right now having more levels or better equipment (or a combination of both) is going to make the high end game similar to other grindy games, but the port contention PvP is something that I believe will equal much of the level disparity out, and the realm vs realm aspect of this game is designed so even Carebears can help assist the "war effort" without ever doing PvP themselves.

In order to contest ports, and turn them into PvP zones, players need to kill NPC ships around ports, which you don't have to be uber level 50s to do. Players can enable their PvP flag, or leave it off, and are only subject to PvP if they enter into the contention area (red circle-BTW there's no crying in the red circle-) or are PvP enabled. This means players have to be willing to be open to attack, and the PvP aspect can be avoided for anyone who is just seeking to level . While I do see the port contention part being the ultimate goal for high levels until there is other "high end content", and do think many players will be racing to get there, I also don't feel that any of the rest of the game will become grindy because the PvP contention will keep the high levels occupied while casual gamers can sail around the big red PvP areas, and just have fun while achieving levels however they want.

I really don't see how making it take an extra days worth of "played" time is going to make or break this game (or why it would matter to any of you), and it wouldn't matter to me because a lot of the game is fun. If anything makes me not buy this game I think it will be lag & memory leaks, disappearing avatars, lack of immersiveness, and the delays on new contentbecause of the post release polishing left to do, that will.

edit to add  BTW the level cap is now 30, and I've been playing extremely casually and in the Closed Beta was able to reach 17. Since Open Beta started I've been approaching the level cap just as it was removed. If I join the same NPC hunting group I've been hanging with, I might make 30 this weekend, and I moved from 19-23 in about 3 hours (which to me as a casual player did seem slightly too fast).
second edit to fix some grammar

[Modern Angel]

That's why I'm asking how much slower is slower. I like the game *as is*, avatars, levels and all. Right now I'm going to buy it. If it's slowed down a bit I'm going to buy it. But if they look at eleven days played and crank that up to twenty or more heck no. And I agree with most everything you said there, taolurker. I can pvp off the bat, I can play the economy off the bat and I can sail around to my heart's content off the bat.

[Nevermore]

Just as many people are going to complain that leveling is too fast, as are going to claim it's too slow or not casual friendly,

Bullshit.  The people that complain about leveling too fast are a very small minority.  Some of them were very vocal in Vanguard and you can tell by the enormous popularity of that game how well the whole play2grind mechanic worked out. I guess Blizzard better be worried about WoW hemorrhaging accounts any day now since they made it so much easier to level recently.

How about FLS test this whole idea.  If just as many people are going to complain about leveling too fast as are going to claim leveling is too slow, then if two servers with different leveling speeds were set up they should have roughly equal populations, right?  They can make one server the catass2victoly cockblock server and the other the omgwtfeasy pussy server.  I bet you eleventy billion Internet Knowitall points that the pussy will be far, far more popular than the cock. 

[taolurker]

WTF is wrong with you? CONTEXT... Quote and respond to the whole sentence for chrissakes.. And maybe read the paragraph it's part of and the sentence after that?

because you didn't read them, I'll quote it for you..

First, and foremost, the issue about the grinding to level 50, and them attempting to balance it slightly is not something that should be a concern. Just as many people are going to complain that leveling is too fast, as are going to claim it's too slow or not casual friendly, so I totally believe that the leveling curve will be done with both sets of people in mind. With the way that FLS has been responding to the players, I'm even more sure that this will be the case.

I don't think any MMO in their right mind wants casual players and hardcore power gamers to both be un-happy, and the solution is obviously not the Pussy server you're proposing because then everyone would level to 50 (70, whatever) and then leave the game or demand new content every week. I never mentioned anywhere that leveling should be a chore, but you know if it is a chore, if you don't enjoy the game, or can't spend time to be uber just don't play the game.

As a casual player getting to max level/end game is NOT why I play these games, and people who are only in these games to max/end game seriously need more cockblocks IMO. If casual gamers suffer a little, to grief the people who are in it only to be uber faster than everyone, then I am totally alright with that.

[Nevermore]

WTF is wrong with you? CONTEXT... Quote and respond to the whole sentence for chrissakes.. And maybe read the paragraph it's part of and the sentence after that?

I read the whole post just fine, thanks.  I quoted that particular fragment because it was an especially asinine statement to make, and because it's the only part of the whole paragraph that's a very easily disproved assertion rather than just an optimistic opinion.  You're certainly entitled to your opinion no matter how foolish I think it might be.  Just don't pull wild, inaccurate claims out of your ass to support them.  If you're going to do that, you better back them up with some kind of proof.  If I wanted to argue opinion, I would have singled out the last part of your quote to remind you of other games with very cool, mostly responsive devs who still seem to have brain lock when it comes to grind (see: Mythic, Cryptic).  But I'm not going to argue opinion.

As a casual player getting to max level/end game is NOT why I play these games, and people who are only in these games to max/end game seriously need more cockblocks IMO. If casual gamers suffer a little, to grief the people who are in it only to be uber faster than everyone, then I am totally alright with that.

Still, I see you took my bait because there's the response I knew I'd get in some form or another.  Invariably, whenever someone says it's too easy to level in a game what they really mean is: 'You over there!  You're leveling too fast!'.  It's never really about their own experience; it's about telling someone else how they should be playing.  See, I'm probably even more of a casual player than you are (3 1/2 years in CoX and all of 2 level 50 characters) but I don't give a flying rat's ass how long it takes that other person to level.  I just like to feel like I'm making some kind of progress on my character when I'm playing.  Right now in PotBS beta it feels like I'm making progress.  A 'slight' adjustment would negatively impact my game play.

[lamaros]

It doesn't matter how fast anyone gets to the cap unless:

1. They got there completing all previous content and there is nothing to do once they got there.

Becasue this would imply that the game doesn't have enough fun. But then slowing down the speed it takes to level would just slow down the speed at which they can enjoy the game; lessenign the enjoyment per time spent in game but not increasing it overall. This is the definition of adding in a grind.

2. People at the cap adversely affect those not yet at the cap.

But then, at some point you'll have people at the cap anyway, and still have people new to the game. So you're just delaying the fundamental game problem, not removing it.

The ONLY reason to slow the leveling speed in my book is if people are outleveling content. That is to say, that they are levelign so fast that there are parts of the game they never enjoy because they got too high for it. This would require adjustment because you're basicly wasting content.

Of course it would add to replayability, but given that we're talking about release and not later on in the game (WoW's decrease of leveling suits this - replay the game and just do the stuff you havn't done yet, but still make it to the level cap) it doesn't make sense at that point.

Any other reasons just belie problem with the game.

[Hellinar]

 If 11 days is "too fast", then just soft cap the max experience you can make in a day/week/month to bring it to the timeframe you want.

Tune the experience gain per hour for the average player so the game is fun. This is the critical metric. Is the game fun for the great majority of your players? If there are a bunch of cattases it doesn't suit, they can just leave.

I'm really sorry to hear PotBS is tuning the experience gain per hour as an indirect way of tuning the min days played to 50. The two goals should be tuned directly to meet the goals you want. Linking the two of them is a really bad idea.

[Tige]

I wish the misnomer of "casual player" would be removed from all mmo discussion. 

There is only one difference between the so called casual player, the catass and everyone in between.  Their tolerance dealing with the nuisance of having to go from level 1 to where the fun starts or, how quickly I can grind to the unsubscribe button to start all over again in another game. 

[Venkman]

The difference I see is between "new" player and "experienced" player. To the former, level 1 is fun, by its nature of being a brand new experience to learn. Once you hit the cap though, hitting it again does not include loving level 1. This is because if you're motivated to roll an alt and bring that to the cap, it's almost solely because you want to experience that endgame from a new perspective, and not because you want to relive all of the intervening levels again.

The reason some people continue to grind straight up to the cap even in new games is, in my opinion, largely due to the similarity of the game and therefore the expectation for the endgame. Some didn't find the level 1-60 experience in WoW much fun because they already played that experience in EQ1, DAoC, CoH, and so on. This is all because it's cut from the same mold. DIKU with unlocking new abilities for a class that is pretty similar to what you played before except with some tweaks. There's only so many times you can approach each new iteration of the same concept with the bright-eyed love of a newb.

Meanwhile, blowing through to the level cap of PotBS is sorta silly. For one, it's beta so you're going to lose it anyway. For another, while you might think PotBS is ye olde standard DIKU, it isn't. So you have a good chance of missing the nuances that set you up for success later in the game.

[ajax34i]

I think that PvE end-game content would be ok, an option, in this game.  Might be cool to have to do organized fleet action, with big ships hanging back and pounding while the small darters dash in and do...  I don't know what, tackle?  Spot?  Boarding action?  Shrug.  Or a move-and-shoot type of encounter where your're trying to chase and split the enemy, or drive them towards an ambush, etc. 

So far the feedback has been about solo action, and not even EVE is about that.

[WayAbvPar]

FLS response to my post about the proposed nerf-

Guys, you really don't need to worry about this.

The leveling rate we have now is what we intend for launch.

Any changes we make will be to address specific situations like a mission that is way too farmable, or a region in the curve that needs adjustment.

There is NO GLOBAL XP NERF planned. What you're playing is fundamentally what we're launching. Don't worry.
__________________
John Scott Tynes
Producer
Flying Lab Software

Not ideal, but not as bad as I feared.

[HaemishM]

Even if there are people who are powergaming to level 50, one of the requirements of the high level game is getting better ships. With player built ships being the best ones in the game, and because they require significant resources and time to create on their own, even someone who powergames to 50 still might not be all that much more powerful than 2 level 25s who do have better "equipment" (let alone skill and tactics).

Where the casual gamer is concerned, and worried that leveling will become too slow, I totally don't see this being an issue, because they still can compete even without the level grind because of equipment + skill.

That's great, except that equipment IS GATED BY LEVEL. So that level 50 will always have a better advantage by being able to get better gear because of more time played. It's all well and good that a level 25 can take down a level 50 if properly skilled and lucky, but if the developers don't want people like me being bitchy about a slow leveling curve, one way to do it is remove the level restrictions on equipment.

In a game with levels, no matter how trivial the levels might be, LEVELS WILL MATTER, especially when PVP is involved. All players everywhere are Nigel Tufnel in Spinal Tap... THESE GO TO 11.

[Tige]

The difference I see is between "new" player and "experienced" player. To the former, level 1 is fun, by its nature of being a brand new experience to learn. Once you hit the cap though, hitting it again does not include loving level 1. This is because if you're motivated to roll an alt and bring that to the cap, it's almost solely because you want to experience that endgame from a new perspective, and not because you want to relive all of the intervening levels again.

As one who has never reached the endgame in any game since starting with AC1 I can't really speak to what would drive a person to grind away yet again for a different look at it.

The reason some people continue to grind straight up to the cap even in new games is, in my opinion, largely due to the similarity of the game and therefore the expectation for the endgame. Some didn't find the level 1-60 experience in WoW much fun because they already played that experience in EQ1, DAoC, CoH, and so on. This is all because it's cut from the same mold. DIKU with unlocking new abilities for a class that is pretty similar to what you played before except with some tweaks. There's only so many times you can approach each new iteration of the same concept with the bright-eyed love of a newb.

The stuff a million threads here and elsewhere are made of.  Whether within the same game or the same game with another name.

For another, while you might think PotBS is ye olde standard DIKU, it isn't. So you have a good chance of missing the nuances that set you up for success later in the game.

I saw/experienced no subtle game techniques in potbs after a handful of months of testing.  I went back when they added swordplay and still nothing.  I'm about a big of a sailing fanatic as you can get on any level and no matter how hard I tried the DIKU kept jumping up and stabbing me in my face.  First with a noob sword, then with a noob sword +1.

Two things pissed me off about my time spent with potbs.  The first was watching a bunch of clowns on the boards squawk about how casual they were and then tear down anything that stood in their way of reaching the endgame as quickly as possible.  The desire of becoming uber as quick as possible is not a casual trait.  The second was watching flying lab buckle.   

 

[Venkman]

Yea, I shoulda been clearer about what I meant.

PotBS does offer the same sort of quest-based-grind-to-cap as a standard DIKU. However, alongside that track is a very different experience of crafting, commerce, ships, and equipment for them. I view the avatar-ground game as something they needed to do to personalize the ships players have (to improve upon Eve, as it were). But it's not about gearing up your pirate to Raid the Spanish Dragon. It's more about building up your character and your holdings to achieve some commercial success in a semi-open PvP environment. Or, Eve but where you grow the character instead of clicking skills to learn over time.

The motivation to hit the cap is going to change over time I think. Right now people can approach it as a DIKU, but they'll realize the endgame isn't like WoW (Raid or Sport PvP) or EQ2 (Raid) or any of that ilk. That learning will result in a whole bunch of "what now" posts that may force FLS to retrofit a standard endgame. But I hope not, because they more they try to make this appeal to a DIKU seeker, the more it not being as attractive (graphics, bugs, etc) gets highlighted.

In theory anyway

[Der Helm]

Hm. Apparently my old beta-login does not work anymore. I can't even log into the forums because I would need a station account which I never created for this game. Did I miss an important email or something like that?

[Signe]

Probably.  Can't you just start up an SOE account and still merge the two?  I bet you can!  I'll PM you the email regarding the stuff about the thingy.

[Bokonon]

All their account stuff transferred over to SOE a couple months ago. If you go to the beta signup page on burningsea.com, there is a link to migrate your account over.

[SnakeCharmer]

How many / who are going to be playing at launch?

[Signe]

Not me.  I am crap at driving boats.  Anyway, I don't like it.

[Rasix]

I'm starting to feel like I just don't understand this game and I can't be bothered to care.  Ship upgrade, spiffy!  Ohh, that green quest (yes, despite the below, I'm sure) is kicking my ass still.  Am I not turning in circles enough?  What am I not getting?  Why are 3 ships kicking my ass when I used to be able to take this sort of odds before?  Why do I feel like I'm getting less powerful as I level as opposed to more?  Why does absolutely no one talk in this game outside of nation chat, which I promptly had to turn off due to rampant idiocy?

And yah, the red/green colors combined with the font they're using for a con system in the quests? I can barely see it at all.  This sort of crap is getting tiresome.  Don't UI programmers have any sort of accessibility/usability guidelines?

I'm beginning to think I just hate boats. Maybe I should try the economic game, but I have a feeling that's level limited somehow and somewhat of a waste of time in a beta.  Anyone got a group of non-pirates they play with?  Maybe this whole thing is more fun with others.

Aside: Why does every MMO I try nowadays lose my interest rather early on and only make me think about loading up WoW again?   

[KyanMehwulfe]

In order to contest ports, and turn them into PvP zones, players need to kill NPC ships around ports, which you don't have to be uber level 50s to do. Players can enable their PvP flag, or leave it off, and are only subject to PvP if they enter into the contention area (red circle-BTW there's no crying in the red circle-) or are PvP enabled. This means players have to be willing to be open to attack, and the PvP aspect can be avoided for anyone who is just seeking to level . While I do see the port contention part being the ultimate goal for high levels until there is other "high end content", and do think many players will be racing to get there, I also don't feel that any of the rest of the game will become grindy because the PvP contention will keep the high levels occupied while casual gamers can sail around the big red PvP areas, and just have fun while achieving levels however they want.

How much value is there in controlling ports or territory?

Are there unique elements to certain ports? I read about (though I haven't seen in-game yet in my limited played) mention of resource 'generators'... Mills, farms, etc. I saw that each port had a list of types of resource camps it has. Is that a big part of the value? Certain ports are very valuable to the economy? Is there any sort of network worth... like a chain of 3 ports with NPC (or PC) supply chains between them? I'm basically just looking for details on what purpose port ownership has over just for the sake of saying X owns Y. I've played EVE if making any comparisons or contrasts would help explain.

I'm sort of intrigued by some of the things I've seen listed for the game, and though I may still not play (busy with another beta), I'm still fairly curious and I may give the game a 1 month try when it realeases if I'm in a game-lull at the time.

[Trippy]

I'm starting to feel like I just don't understand this game and I can't be bothered to care.  Ship upgrade, spiffy!  Ohh, that green quest (yes, despite the below, I'm sure) is kicking my ass still.  Am I not turning in circles enough?  What am I not getting?  Why are 3 ships kicking my ass when I used to be able to take this sort of odds before?  Why do I feel like I'm getting less powerful as I level as opposed to more?

Sounds like they are following in the footsteps of Brad. That's the way EQ worked, you got weaker relative to "even" con mobs as you levelled.

[Prospero]

I'm starting to feel like I just don't understand this game and I can't be bothered to care.  Ship upgrade, spiffy!  Ohh, that green quest (yes, despite the below, I'm sure) is kicking my ass still.  Am I not turning in circles enough?  What am I not getting?  Why are 3 ships kicking my ass when I used to be able to take this sort of odds before?  Why do I feel like I'm getting less powerful as I level as opposed to more?  Why does absolutely no one talk in this game outside of nation chat, which I promptly had to turn off due to rampant idiocy?

I'm not sure what level you're at, but at some point it does feel like the training wheels come off, and you suddenly have to be _really_ good at sailing. It was about level 20 for me I think. Where I could take 3 ships easily before, suddenly 1 ship or 2 ships would really strain me. I don't have much advice except that sailing is in fact hard, and learning to maintain speed is the key.

The chat thing honestly is what drove me away. I never joined a society, so maybe they all were chatting in their own chat rooms. However the general populace wasn't nearly as friendly as the WoW players.

How much value is there in controlling ports or territory?

Are there unique elements to certain ports? I read about (though I haven't seen in-game yet in my limited played) mention of resource 'generators'... Mills, farms, etc. I saw that each port had a list of types of resource camps it has. Is that a big part of the value? Certain ports are very valuable to the economy? Is there any sort of network worth... like a chain of 3 ports with NPC (or PC) supply chains between them? I'm basically just looking for details on what purpose port ownership has over just for the sake of saying X owns Y. I've played EVE if making any comparisons or contrasts would help explain.

Each port has a unique set of resources, so you generally have to move goods around if you want to build things. Also when a faction owns a port people of the other factions are charged a higher tariff on all goods. It gives merchants an incentive to participate in the faction wars. I think it jumps from 10% to 25%, so it can put a serious crimp in your profits.

[KyanMehwulfe]

How about the safety of a network (or just local) ports?

You 'contend' a port by killing NPCs, correct? Would a port owned by XX right beside a port owned by YY (their enemy) be at greater threat to that? E.G. Perhaps YY being so close spawns more NPCs, or simply somehow makes it more efficent to contend (e.g. if they get quests from YY which spawn NPCs to contend at XX, obviously being close equals beter)?

Or is it basically every port has a static barrier to contend unchanged by what ports or port ownership is around it?

[tmp]

Why are 3 ships kicking my ass when I used to be able to take this sort of odds before?  Why do I feel like I'm getting less powerful as I level as opposed to more?

It's not very complicated. 3 ships get (combined) effectively 3x the firepower and survability bonus as they gain a level, while you get single upgrade to both. In order to maintain ability to kill 3 of them at the same level, your single upgrade would have to be 3x bigger than upgrade any single of them gets... and that in turn would make fights vs 1-2 opponents quickly turn completely trivial, while players would still bitch that groups of 4+ ships still grow harder to defeat at times goes.

[WayAbvPar]

I dearly wish they would release the UI code to modders. If ever a game screamed for mod help, PotBS is it. The UI is DREADFUL. Not enough info, or info in the wrong spots, fonts too small, too many chat channels/colors to track, etc. Even some mouseover tooltips would be a boon.


I have preordered, and will be playing at (pre)launch. 90% sure I will be playing Spanish. Having leveled a pirate to 15 or so, I am starting to see that PvP as a pirate has no 'goal' other than gankage most of the time; Pirates can't capture ports. The economy is a mess too- very few player-built ships. Plus it will be fun blowing all the fucktards I see in Nation chat on the Pirate side out of the water.

Ideally we could get 10-20 players/friends from here and get a little guild together. I will run it if we get enough people to make it worthwhile.

[ajax34i]

If you're talking improvement per level compared to just a level ago, if we pull a number out of thin air and say that each ship gets a 10% buff per level, the fight is still 3 to 1 odds, but it should only "feel" 21% more difficult than a level ago.

Re: atmosphere and people talking, why are you guys expecting the playerbase to be WoW-like?  It's a PvP game; it'll be like EVE's atmosphere, where everyone will shoot you, scam you, or otherwise take advantage of you, rather than be all bunnies and fluffy and friends forever.

[Modern Angel]

I'll be on there and had basically decided on Spanish anyway. Not preordered yet but probably will shortly.

[HaemishM]

I'm not sure yet about release. I love the sailing game, but I'm just not sure if I'll want to spend the money.

[WayAbvPar]

Sell a kidney! Preferably not your own....

[taolurker]

I am still not totally decided on giving this a couple of months after release, or attempting to be one of the first people on board and getting the pre-order.

The latest update did improve many of the avatar issues, but it's been replaced by numerous different issues with the Open Sea sailing, and lag in general has only gotten worse. I still really like the ship combat, and right now am still playing a Spanish Navy officer who continually has either bad luck, or picks the exact wrong time to do things. I was doing some PvP yesterday, and even nearly sunk one ship in a 3 vs 1 ship gank instance, but even that hasn't lessened the fun to be had.

Why are 3 ships kicking my ass when I used to be able to take this sort of odds before?  Why do I feel like I'm getting less powerful as I level as opposed to more?

It's not very complicated. 3 ships get (combined) effectively 3x the firepower and survability bonus as they gain a level, while you get single upgrade to both. In order to maintain ability to kill 3 of them at the same level, your single upgrade would have to be 3x bigger than upgrade any single of them gets... and that in turn would make fights vs 1-2 opponents quickly turn completely trivial, while players would still bitch that groups of 4+ ships still grow harder to defeat at times goes.

As you progress in levels, and the ships you combat do as well, they won't take anyplace near the damage they did when they were level 1 or 2, minor ships. Some good advice was already given about keeping speed, but one thing that definitely helps is  keeping out of their firing arcs, or using the other ships as blockers to keep all three from firing on you at once. Sailing them into the wind originally is a good tactic, and then if you use their weaker points (bow and stern have less armor) you can usually reduce them without any problems. Always use comsumable items to repair your armor (hull patches) versus NPCs, and normally there won't be any chance you can lose (because NPCs can't repair themselves).

I took on a single level 45 NPC ship solo last night, and he only was able to fire two broadside shots on me, and for most of the combat I was running ahead of him alternately turning from one side to the other, firing on his bow.

[Lantyssa]

Shred their sails with starshot and board them.  It takes them down more quickly than sinking or getting them to abandon ship.  Also I love the privateer's repair and defensive abilities.

[Venkman]

That's the way I had been doing it. Boarding is just quicker. Sea battles were fun for the first few weeks, but eventually they just got in the way.

PvP is different of course.

[WayAbvPar]

That's the way I had been doing it. Boarding is just quicker. Sea battles were fun for the first few weeks, but eventually they just got in the way.

PvP is different of course.

I like to board because it saves me money. Cannon ammo and consumables cost money. Armor/structure and crew all regen for free. 

[Mrbloodworth]

That's the way I had been doing it. Boarding is just quicker. Sea battles were fun for the first few weeks, but eventually they just got in the way.

PvP is different of course.

I like to board because it saves me money. Cannon ammo and consumables cost money. Armor/structure and crew all regen for free. 

you also get more loot.