My Xbox red ringed... Has yours?

[Sairon]

I wouldn't go so far as to say that 360s are flawed for overheating when placed in a spot that denies them fresh air, but the engineers were certainly short-sighted for not taking less than optimum environments into consideration when designing the heat systems.  They should've had massively excessive cooling systems to compensate for the average living room.

You're saying a console who's having a ~30% failure rate for overheating isn't flawed because of it? It should be pretty obvious when dealing with the targeted customer group that the majority of them won't know shit about issues like these.

[Big Gulp]

I wouldn't go so far as to say that 360s are flawed for overheating when placed in a spot that denies them fresh air, but the engineers were certainly short-sighted for not taking less than optimum environments into consideration when designing the heat systems.  They should've had massively excessive cooling systems to compensate for the average living room.

You're saying a console who's having a ~30% failure rate for overheating isn't flawed because of it? It should be pretty obvious when dealing with the targeted customer group that the majority of them won't know shit about issues like these.

And then there's people like me.  Mine's on the top of my non-enclosed entertainment center, and it never moves, gets kicked, etc.  Red ringed after 6 months, had a DVD drive that's been getting progressively worse since I bought it.  I can only assume that I'm not alone.

This isn't just a case of the consumer fucking up their systems.  It's substandard quality control, period.

[Hayduke]

Voila, overheat.  It's like the people who put their laptops on their beds.  Surprise, fuckers, those puffy blankets covered up the area under the computer that was supposed to give it airflow, and lo and behold it caught on fire.

In general I'd agree.  But it depends on the laptop.  I wouldn't put a shitty HP, Alienware or Sony Vaio on a blanket in bed, but a high-quality laptop like a Thinkpad, Toshiba or Mac are well-designed for those situations.

[Hayduke]

Maybe I have a different definition, but I don't consider audiophile to be consumer level.  But professional level.  I don't know, my dad is an audio engineer with a studio who's been in the music business for forty years and it's worlds apart from what you can shop for down at Best Buy.  He pretty much got started with things by making his own equipment though.  Maybe audiophile represents a more enthusiast than professional level though, which may be accurate for PS3.

[LanTheWarder]

I wouldn't go so far as to say that 360s are flawed for overheating when placed in a spot that denies them fresh air, but the engineers were certainly short-sighted for not taking less than optimum environments into consideration when designing the heat systems.  They should've had massively excessive cooling systems to compensate for the average living room.

You're saying a console who's having a ~30% failure rate for overheating isn't flawed because of it? It should be pretty obvious when dealing with the targeted customer group that the majority of them won't know shit about issues like these.

And then there's people like me.  Mine's on the top of my non-enclosed entertainment center, and it never moves, gets kicked, etc.  Red ringed after 6 months, had a DVD drive that's been getting progressively worse since I bought it.  I can only assume that I'm not alone.

This isn't just a case of the consumer fucking up their systems.  It's substandard quality control, period.

Same with me. Mine was on top of my TV vertical with plenty of airflow.

[Strazos]

You're saying a console who's having a ~30% failure rate for overheating isn't flawed because of it?

It's probably fair to knock the failure rate down a few notches, due to plain buyer stupidity. Also, kids.

That being said, there are far too many problems with the system.

[LanTheWarder]

No one can prove that it has a 30% failure rate, but it is obviously well above the standard acceptable 3-5%. Which would include buyer stupidity.

[Kitsune]

I wouldn't go so far as to say that 360s are flawed for overheating when placed in a spot that denies them fresh air, but the engineers were certainly short-sighted for not taking less than optimum environments into consideration when designing the heat systems.  They should've had massively excessive cooling systems to compensate for the average living room.

You're saying a console who's having a ~30% failure rate for overheating isn't flawed because of it? It should be pretty obvious when dealing with the targeted customer group that the majority of them won't know shit about issues like these.

Put a computer in an enclosed box and run it for hours and it'll melt down too, do you blame the computer?  I've seen pictures of macbooks with their keyboards melted from overheating when their owners put them on a soft surface that clogged their intakes.  When you have a lot of juice running through electronics to power the various processors and video chips, you get a lot of heat.  I haven't put my PS3 in a spot with bad ventilation (and I'm not gonna, given its price tag), but I'm pretty sure it'd break too.  Electronics that are treated unkindly are gonna break.  These new consoles with all of their processors are heat monsters, you can't just kick the thing around like a Super NES and expect everything to be okay.  Old consoles were pillars of sturdiness on account of no moving parts and not a lot of power, the new breed are as powerful as desktops and need to be treated as such.

[Edit: And to not ignore people like Big Gulp, 360s that've died despite being well-ventilated do point to the console having inadequate cooling.  My point's just that the failure rate is likely being exacerbated by far less than ideal setups in various living rooms.]

[schild]

I've had my PS3 running for 12+ hours before with only 3 inches on each side, 7 inches on the back, and an open front. Didn't even hiccup. Once again, the thing is a beast.

[Sairon]

Put a computer in an enclosed box and run it for hours and it'll melt down too, do you blame the computer?  I've seen pictures of macbooks with their keyboards melted from overheating when their owners put them on a soft surface that clogged their intakes.  When you have a lot of juice running through electronics to power the various processors and video chips, you get a lot of heat.  I haven't put my PS3 in a spot with bad ventilation (and I'm not gonna, given its price tag), but I'm pretty sure it'd break too.  Electronics that are treated unkindly are gonna break.  These new consoles with all of their processors are heat monsters, you can't just kick the thing around like a Super NES and expect everything to be okay.  Old consoles were pillars of sturdiness on account of no moving parts and not a lot of power, the new breed are as powerful as desktops and need to be treated as such.

[Edit: And to not ignore people like Big Gulp, 360s that've died despite being well-ventilated do point to the console having inadequate cooling.  My point's just that the failure rate is likely being exacerbated by far less than ideal setups in various living rooms.]

If the consumer actively tries to enclose the box and block the ventilation it's understandable that it breaks but that's surely not the case, a console should manage poor TV stands etc though since that's where a lot of people will put them.

[Murgos]

Maybe I have a different definition, but I don't consider audiophile to be consumer level.  But professional level. 

Audiophile is certainly enthusiast rather than professional.  Professional setups have to be cost aware, you cannot spend so much on the equipment that you can't turn a profit on your product.  Professional anything tends to be few frills, does what it does extremely well (but generally only does that one thing) and designed for heavy, day in, day out, continuous use.  I can see where audiophile stuff seems to cross the border because they tend to follow the simplicity of purpose paradigm but I think that's where the similarity ends.

[Sairon]

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?p=123215 apparently PS3s actually do break too :P

[Tannhauser]

I stood my 360 up and put in my new game ST Legacy (fuck you for mocking me, I like Star Trek :)).  I did the tutorial mission and
it crashed.  The drive or something put a mark on my disk where the 360 wouldn't read it.  I managed to reboot the 360 and wipe the mark off and it's working again.  So I'm NEVER standing it up again.

[Jain Zar]

Bought April 06.  Hasn't broken yet, but I have had the random lock up (mostly in Chromehounds), and the odd dirty disk error.  System sits on a big Games Workshop box on the floor, with over 2 feet of rear airflow, up to the ceiling for top flow, and 6-12 inches on each side.

My NES, SNES,  X Box, Genesis, N64, Gamecube, Nomad, Sega CD, Saturn, Game Boy, Game Boy Color, GB Advance (outside of a shoulder button I needed to fix), DS, Atari 2600, 7800, Intellivision, Neo Geo Pocket Color, N Gage QD, and PSP all have worked pretty much spiffy.

Only the PS1 (was a floor model), which required upside down play, PS2 which had randomly closing disk tray issues and a static electricity LED issue and now hates running Wizardry, the Dreamcast (random reboot issue that is apparently rather common) have given me any trouble.

I shouldn't be AFRAID to play my 360.  But I am.  And I treat my systems like GOLD.  Its bad build quality, not anything I have done to em that give me any troubles.

[Riggswolfe]

I stood my 360 up and put in my new game ST Legacy (fuck you for mocking me, I like Star Trek :)).  I did the tutorial mission and
it crashed.  The drive or something put a mark on my disk where the 360 wouldn't read it.  I managed to reboot the 360 and wipe the mark off and it's working again.  So I'm NEVER standing it up again.

How is Star Trek legacy? I've been kind of hoping it's basically Starfleet Command, I used to  that particular series on PC. Only two things have kept me from buying it 1) The reviews and 2) It covers all eras and I only care about Original Series and Next Gen, all the rest of it can disappear IMO.

[Joey]

I've had my 360 for nearly 3 months, and as of a week ago, it has started with the disc error messages.

There's nothing quite like defeating that difficult boss in Dead Rising, only to have a random disc-read error on the post-battle cutscene.   

I dreadfully await the red ring o' death...

[Sky]

Also, kids.

It's a GAME CONSOLE. You can't dismiss the kid abuse factor in a product for kids. It's great adults enjoy games, too. But you have to design for your lowest common denominator.

[Yegolev]

Last night the 360 hung two times after snapping a picture and accepting it, required a powercycle both times.  Da da duuuum!

[schild]

Also, kids.

It's a GAME CONSOLE. You can't dismiss the kid abuse factor in a product for kids. It's great adults enjoy games, too. But you have to design for your lowest common denominator.

Ahem.

Anyone who would buy their KID a $400+ game system deserves anything they get.

Some systems aren't for kids. How many E10/G rated games are there? Oh, only racing games? Surely a 6 year old can tear some ass in Forza.

Go get a Wii.

[Yegolev]

Live Arcade.

[schild]

Live Arcade.

Is there any situation where you would let your "kid" remember, I'm not saying tween or some shit here, but KID go unattended onto the marketplace?

Even then, something about new gaming hardware just doesn't say "Kid" to me.

If any kid - let's say - under 10 - is playing on anything more than a SNES, they're 1. Not getting the gaming education they need, and 2. Are likely overpampered. But then, I think gaming should have a curriculum.

[Yegolev]

You do have a valid point in there and I'm just playing devil's advocate for the most part, but loosely speaking I don't think there's anything wrong with letting someone under ten play Aegis Wing, for example.  Should he play R-Type first?  Sure, but that's not always viable.  I would be faced with letting my son play Live Arcade or my SNES, and I have to say that I'm far more inclined to let him use the one that I can easily replace.  Also, I have long since decided that everything I own will be destroyed by the boy and I find quite a bit of serenity in acceptance.  And service plans.  This is not applicable to everyone, of course, and I was once like you.  Now, however, I'm a father and it's like a different universe.

Now, if I bought my son a $400 toy and he abused it in some way (taping the vents, etc), there would be some life lesson handed out to educate him on respect for property just as if he wrecked his bike being a dumbass.  I'm not sure most parents would do that, but I would.  He already says things like "Just buy another one" and he's only three, so I have my work cut out for me.  Also, boys will be boys, etc.  Parenting is hard.

I have not bothered to look, but doesn't the 360 have parental controls?  If not, then yes: get a Wii.

[schild]

Gradius or R-Type are good choices. I think it would be interesting to train a kid on shooters and move him up to danmaku/bullet hell shooters. I be he'd have a hella twitch abilities by age 8. SNES systems are easy and cheap to replace. And the games are plentiful and really, while many of the games are theoretically harder, the learning curve isn't. And there's a kinda of beauty to letting kids experience certain games at certain times (like FF4/6 when they're young).

My opinion? Buy a few original xboxes, soft mod them, and load them up with ROMs.

Yes, the 360 has parental controls.

[Yegolev]

I have two broken SNES, what is your suggestion there?  If that is sound, I might ask you about my broken NES.

[schild]

Throw away the broken ones and buy one from a mother on craigslist for a few bucks.

[Sky]

If any kid - let's say - under 10 - is playing on anything more than a SNES, they're 1. Not getting the gaming education they need, and 2. Are likely overpampered.

Hey look. Our lil schildy's gettin' all old. How cuuute!

I started gaming on a text-only terminal running off a mainframe. I disagree with what you said, oh crotchety one.

Naked

[CmdrSlack]

Kids are going to play games. Hell, my idiot cousin lets my cool younger cousin (we're talking 7) play GTA when she's over at his house. I fear this, but she's also really awesome at some Mario game for the DS, so maybe she's just that rad. 

At least she still has empathy.  She doesn't mind shooting cops or random passerby, but she thinks killing the hooker to get your money back is crass and uncool because "she earned it."

Ok, that part is made up, but my 7 year old cousin rules.  If I had a 360, I'd let her play Dead Rising because she's into zombies. When my daughter is old enough to appreciate the "don't harm dad's electronics lest ye lose an arm" thing, I'll likely let her play Viva Pinata or whatever similar game is out for whatever console I own at that point. Heck, I'd let her play Katamari too. There's plenty of games that kids can play.  I know plenty of parents who bought expensive consoles for their kids -- heck, when I was a kid, I knew kids who had an NES or a SNES, adn those things weren't cheap at that point. Heck, maybe they were, but my mom and dad avoided buying me one by playing the cost card. 

[Riggswolfe]

/slightderail

I was browsing in gamestop yesterday and was there for maybe 10 minutes. In that time two kids, youunger than 10  went to the counter while I was checking out. One asked for GTA and the other asked about Rainbow Six Vegas. I said "umm..aren't they too young to be asking about M-rated games?" The clerk shrugged and said "yeah, but it happens all the time. You'd be surprised."

/derailoff

I kind of made me mad, both from the standpoint they shouldn't have these games and from the standpoint that that kind of shit gives ammo to the anti-game zealots.

[schild]

Gamestop doesn't pay it's regular clerks enough to give a shit.

See, the problem is, people have to "care."

[Yoru]

Funny... I get carded at EB whenever there's a clerk that doesn't recognize me. I asked the manager about it at one point when she was out at the front desk, and she told me it was company policy - both the clerk and manager could get sacked if someone rightfully reported them for selling M-rated games to people who look "under 30" without checking ID.

[Sky]

Anyone who would buy their KID a $400+ game system deserves anything they get.

The Atari 2600 was $200 in 1977 dollars. That's about $686 in modern dollars.

Git off mah lawn.

[Sky]

Gamestop doesn't pay it's regular clerks enough to give a shit.

See, the problem is, people have to "care."

The problem is people need to "make enough money" to care.

[schild]

Funny... I get carded at EB whenever there's a clerk that doesn't recognize me. I asked the manager about it at one point when she was out at the front desk, and she told me it was company policy - both the clerk and manager could get sacked if someone rightfully reported them for selling M-rated games to people who look "under 30" without checking ID.

Har. That Manager cares.

Gamestop doesn't pay it's regular clerks enough to give a shit.

See, the problem is, people have to "care."

The problem is people need to "make enough money" to care.

That's not a problem. That's reality. If a company wants me to give a shit, they need to pay me enough to give a shit. Unless I have a stake in something, it comes down to the bennies. As it should. Now, that stake doesn't have to be monetary. When I had kids bring M-Rated games up to the counter, I told them to get the hell out. I wouldn't even let the mom make the decision. Honestly though, at that age, I did it for sadistic glee more than SAVING THE CHILDREN.

[HaemishM]

I was in EB the other day trading in a bunch of X-Box games and this kid was beside me with his mom, trading in games and pre-ordering others. This fucker was probably 16. He had floppy hair across his vacant eyes, and one of those shitty I've-never-shaved-so-it-looks-like-I-have-a-dirty-upper-lip "moustaches" and he and the mother were being busily worked over by the female manager (I think she's the manager) to spend some of that trade-in money on pre-orders. The idiot failing to ring my trade-ins out because he was too fucking busy trying to whore me and this dumbass kid up on pre-orders like some douchetard used car salesman starts naming off games besides Halo 3 he should preorder for his 360. He mentions Bioshock and the kid asks if that's a shooter or an RPG. I tell him kindly that it's a hybrid shooter like the original Deus Ex. He gives me the blankest, most vacuuous stare imaginable and says, "I don't know what that is." I explained it was a shooter with RPG elements.

And I wept a lot on the inside.

[schild]

If he was with his mom, he probably wasn't 16. So let's assume he was 8 when Deus Ex came out. You live in Mississippi, I'd imagine the number of people who own PCs is lower than... anywhere. Mars, even. Now let's crank that back to 2000. This is roughly when fire was discovered, rite? I know running water showed up in June of 2002. So, we can assume that a grand total of 3 people in glorious Mississippi had computers. They were Japanese ex-pats. So, I have to ask, how the hell did you play it back then. Also, that kids mom - really his sister.

Oh yea. Wicked Burn.

ZING.