KOTNR - The Perfect SW MMO, An Examination

[Reign]

The Perfect SW MMO, An Examination by Reign

So I started thinking of what the ‘Perfect’ Star Wars MMO would be like in the future...You know, if LucasArts collaborated with a great MMO making company and decided on an $120-150 million budget, and basically said ‘screw it, the sky is the limit on technology, development staff, features, whatever- anything that sounds fun will be implemented carefully and methodically….

Now, it’s pretty much a known that fact that Bioware is mysteriously making a new MMO- some hope that it is Mass Effect, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, etc.- but I would like to open a new discussion concerning KOTOR/or the ’Knights Of’ Universe by saying that I would much rather see a KOTNR (Knights of the New Republic) game, or something like 'New Jedi Order Online' instead of any version of KOTOR. I don’t believe KOTOR has the potential to be the perfect Star Wars MMO-even though it would still eb a great game….

However, love or hate the Expanded Star Wars Universe (EU) - and most I have spoken with love it 5x better than the new trilogy- here’s the reasons why I believe it doesn’t have quite the potential:

Maybe its only me, but playing a game in a current expanded universe setting where my character could actually exist amid all the things that are actively taking place in the SW universe, and actually making an impact- including the new plots, characters, etc.- is something much more exciting and intriguing than playing an avatar, who, when reading the new stories that come out in the Star Wars EU, you know he's probably been dead for thousands of years and had very little meaning on the universe as a whole. I also see many things, story-line and lore wise, that they can do with a KOTNR or NJOO that they may not be able to do with a KOTOR-like game.

Just think of the possibilities or feature list of an open future, next-gen Star Wars game with a large budget, where player actions truly control the fate of the galaxy (instead of giving the illusion of control like in Star Wars Galaxies) amidst new threats of galactic conquest. Some of these next-gen, innovative features could include the following:

· Choose your faction – Required to play as one of four factions:  The valiant Jedi-New Republic Alliance, the dark and brooding Sith, the vigilant Imperial Remnant, or as the deadly Yuuzhan Vong invaders in the war torn galaxy.

· Choose a species – Choose from over 16 species and races including Humans, Zabraks, Twi’leks, Rodians, Noghri, Chiss, Wookies, Keldorians, Bothans, Falleen, Yuuzhan Vong, Ithorians, Quarrens, and more…

· Create a unique character – With countless facial, body, age, and skin color sliders, your character will have a personal touch of character. Combined with the ability to create complex and colorful clothing outfits, custom Jedi Robes, and intimidating Bounty Hunter armor right from the beginning with our outfitter system, your avatar will truly be unique in this online universe.

· Class diversity - Choose one of many exciting classes like the ‘Jedi Guardian’ for defensive specialization, or the Sith Reapers for stealthy offensive prowess. For non-Force users, class options include cunning Bounty Hunters, Assassins, or even peaceful and profitable industrialists.

· Build Faction and Earn Rank – Accrue faction points for special quests and missions and receive rewards that will bolster your abilities, equipment, and Force powers in your faction controlled territory. Top faction point earners will quickly move up the ranks in their faction, eventually becoming Jedi Masters, Dark Lords, Generals, or War Masters that can use large-scale assault equipment or attacks on the battlefield and in orbital battle zones.

· Points of interest - Visit the new Jedi Academy established by Luke Skywalker, and meet legendary characters like the beautiful Mara Jade, a conflicted Jacen Solo, and the youthful Ben Skywalker

· Hybrid Skill system - Mix and match supplemental Force and martial skills to your character to assist in battling your enemies and other players

· Individual light-saber customization - Design your own hilt, choose the color, as well as the material makeup of your weapon- will you build a traditional blade, dual wield twin sabers, or utilize a saber staff like the mythic Darth Maul?

· Galactic Travel - Travel over 12 controllable planets including a battered and rebuilding Coruscant, the tropical Mon Calamari, Yavin IV, Bothuwai, the Sith capital of Korriban, Ord Mantell, and the rogue planet Zonama Sekot

· Influence the Galaxy – Make a personal impact on the destiny of the galaxy by helping your faction capture, defend, or compete for control of each planet against the other factions. You can play a key role in shaping the galaxy after the conclusion of the Vong war.

· Build persistent player structures - Whether it’s building defensive fortresses on the surface to defend key strategic planetary control points, or banding together with a guild to construct a menacing space station to defend the orbit of your faction’s planet, you can choose to purchase hundreds of customizable buildings or facilities that all serve a purpose.

· Custom Ships & Orbital Assault– Use your hard-earned revenue or crafting skills to acquire custom built star-fighters or gigantic capital ships to defend or attack the orbital defenses of the planets.

· High Octane Space Battles – Enjoy the first person, fast-paced twitch combat in space through the cockpit of your personal Starfighter or Capital Ship. Use cunning strategies and a bit of luck to board enemy Capital ships and assault other players and NPC’s within the hangar, corridors, or bridge to destroy the ships controls.

· Next-Gen Rendering Technology – Loading screens are a thing of the past with our rendering engine that allows for direct and seamless, real-time transition from space to planetary atmosphere to planet surfaces.

· Revolutionary Server Technology – Why have over 8-10 servers when most of the games population can fit one 1-3 with our new server and bandwidth technology! Gather with hundreds of thousands of players in the same galaxy and planets without the lag or delays that plague MMO servers.

Could we possibly see some of these features in the future with Bioware or another project? Why did I make some of these features on my wish list? Lets take a closer look….

[Reign]

Thoughts behind the features:

Character Creation and Customization – Ok, we all know that most next gen games will have some pretty sweet character customization tools for facial, body, tone, color, and hair options, but Id like to propose a new perspective and way of thinking into the equation of character creation.

Well, I shouldn’t say new, because its not entirely new to the genre. Sure, while next-gen features are nice, WoW proved that games don’t have to re-invent the wheel to create something special. So, with that said, let’s take a look at one of the most successful MMO’s in today’s market for a moment- City of Heroes/City of Villains- and apply one of their great features to this perfect MMO.

Now, like it or not, one thing that ALL gamers must admit is that CoH has one of, if not THE best character creation tool in this genre. It has completely revolutionized the task of creating a character, and has almost made a virtual mini-game out of it. Sure, we see all these developers touting that you can spend hours in their respective character creation screens, but I’ll openly admit- Ive been playing MMO’s for 9 years and I’ve rarely spent more than 5-10 minutes creating my toon before I get in-game. Hell, that’s all I’ve needed with some of these crappy customization options and so-called ‘great’ character creation tools.

But with CoX, however, I have indeed spent hours messing with the character creation tool. It’s an integral part of the game at all levels (because you can have multiple outfits and change them as long as you have money), and it makes the beginning of the game more bearable, fun, and immersive. From the minute you step into the environment, you have the outfit/costume that you want, completely customized to your taste.- It identifies your character and makes him unique, and in some cases makes him stand out. Some costumes themselves make others players drool with envy, or jealous that they didn’t think up such a cool color, tights, or armor combo or collaboration.

So I started thinking, if I had the perfect Star Wars MMO, I would want the ability to choose the robe/clothing/outfit combination for my Jedi/Sith/Vong warrior, pilot, merchant, etc. right from the beginning, and, like CoH, be able to modify or enhance the color combination or certain pieces of that outfit throughout the game to my liking. Perhaps you’d like a leather tunic like Anankin in Episode 3, but a flowing bottom and baggy pants like Darth Maul? No problem, queue both of those options up on your toon after creating his body type, and choose the color of your choice (although neon colors should be taken out for some items and pastels need to be carefully voided out). Boom, you have a custom outfit for your unique Jedi/Sith right from the onset of your online avatar’s creation.

The same thing should go with their hair and tattoos – choose the color, template, location, etc. I believe this would be the first step to making the perfect MMO- take what is perhaps the best character creation option we’ve seen and start your game with a bang amongst the players.

Cons w/ Character/Outfit Generator: As long as the devs do their diligence like Cryptic Studios-and make sure there are literally thousands of costume pieces you can place together to literally make millions of combinations like CoH can, then I cannot think of any cons in regard to the ability to visually customize the multiple outfits of your character constantly.

With that in mind, I see some players asking the question about items like armor or helmets, etc., and how they would affect the look of your character. My first inclination is to tell folks that item centric games are overrated and involve too much micro-management (CoH also proves you don’t have to have 10 different pieces of body armor and jewelry you have to throw on your character to make the game a quality product) - but some people like that crap.

To them I say perhaps it could still be possible to have an item centric game, and perhaps have the option to either turn the item graphics on so you can physically see what you have equipped, or to just keep the statistical effect on while you hide the items you’re wearing, that way you can still show off your uber custom robes or design talents.

That’s kind of a grey area, but I believe, especially in Star Wars where the only people to wear armor are the Storm Troopers and Mandalorians- item centric armor just doesn’t go. I thought it was dumb as hell in SWG, but then again they didn’t have an outfit/costume/robe generator for the characters, so I went ahead and accepted the fact. I would much rather have many different flavors of personal deflector shields that act as the ‘armor’ of the game if you will, that each player can tune or enhance or upgrade, and really keep the cosmetic look of the characters based around the costume/outfit/character creation editor, where true customization and visual avatar style is in the hands of the player- not the dev created armor sets (how boring, yuck)

The only exception to the rule under this issue would be players who select Yuuzhan Vong as a character race, who utilize organic clothing and armor. But- like I said above- if the devs can make tons of options for their race specific needs, I don’t see a problem with this either.

 

Storyline & Scope – Even in KOTOR, you are somewhat limited in scope. The Old Republic cannot fall, so there’s no surprise there in any Knights of the Old Republic Setting.  If you go any further back, you start running into the rehashed stories of Exar Kun and the Sith War, etc. And while it would be cool to experience the timeframe of that Jedi vs. Sith epic war- it’s not anything new…its old material by years….

I just think the potential for this game is much more solid than a game based thousands of years ago in a universe that’s been pretty plodded over in that regard. I think that the ongoing story and plot of the expanded universe could be intertwined with this game via the books, or maybe let a game of this magnitude really be the outlet for the players and fans of the genre to continue living out the Star Wars universe. Think about that for a sec…What a dream it would be for the true fans of the genre to actually progress the Star Wars storyline themselves…Interact with an aging and wise Luke Skywalker, receive dangerous wisdom and advice of the Force from Jacen Solo, play cards and have a beer with the old scoundrel, Han Solo, on Ord Mantell.

It’s just so much more ‘Epic’ when the future is not known, and in terms of MMO gameplay, players have always chosen and favored games where, through PvP as well as PvE, they can determine the reality of the universe they live in and make a ‘visual’ and ‘tangible’ impact they can see, feel, and experience.

Cons w/ the Storyline & Scope: In regards to the storyline, the only con is the best pro - unpredictability. If one faction becomes strong enough and successfully recruits thousands of players- lets say the Sith for instance, they could essentially take over the galaxy if they are well organized enough, and maintain control until players finally get sick of it. Some players would hate this, because they would miss out on content available in the other worlds where the enemy controls the entry to the planet, and most key points of interest on the planet.

Me? I would actually love this, as it makes players work together, organize, and use intelligent strategy and public war campaigns to establish a united balance in the galaxy. I also feel that, if the Sith controlled most of the planets in the galaxy, it would be a great opportunity for the development support staff to really relish in that fact, and create quests and on-the fly missions for the other factions to deepen the anguish and dark feel of the galaxy as its being ruled by the Sith…what a great way to have a dynamic, on-going storyline.

But overall, in the grand scheme of things, one of my main beliefs behind this universe and cannon is that we need to separate from the predictability. I know I hated the fact that in SWG, there was really no grand storyline that the players could advance- just like LOTR. They might give you the ‘illusion’ that you are, in some way, impacting the setting of your game, but in reality, you aren’t doing anything to influence the storyline, feel, or experience of your environment. The Rebels would always end up winning the ‘larger’ war, regardless of if the in-game Imperials took over every star port on the planets.

Id like to be part of changing the results of the ‘larger’ war, if you know what I mean, and I feel that’s really the key to the longevity of most next-gen games…

 

Factions & Technology: A good example of the impact players can see and feel in this ‘Perfect’ SW MMO could be the ability of each faction to have complete and ‘tangible’ control of each planet (perhaps save for one home planet for each faction) and certain territories of the galaxy if they recruit enough troops to join the cause, and take those locations by force via strategic control points. ( I believe that this could be a polished version of what AoC is doing in their PvP zones with Siege Towers & Fortresses)

Almost like ‘Capture the Flag’ checkpoints, these key control areas could be clustered in locations within the Capital cities, star ports, or certain military structures on the planet that opposing factions would have to gather near and spend time ‘Capturing’ that checkpoint, much like some first person shooters, only a bit longer). Players from each faction could build housing, guild fortresses, and military defense structures near the static surface control points to ensure stiff resistance when an invading force comes knocking and attempts a hostie takeover.

The more planets a certain faction holds, perhaps their players could earn a small amount of xp, money, and faction perks- more so than the factions that hold very few planets.

To further the depth of this kind of gameplay and make sure it stays realistic, epic, and hard enough to gain control of an entire planet, perhaps there would need to be a space battle to destroy certain orbital shield platforms or defense structures around each planet before the enemy factions could gain entrance to the planet surface.

Also, if conquering a player controlled planet proves to be too difficult, or if non-PvP players want a shot at planetary control, perhaps there could also be 2-4 planets that are PvE battles only. That way the PvE careb—errr, the PvE loyalists would also have the opportunity to win over planetary control without having to face player-character resistance. On these PvE battle planets, perhaps they could be very similar to the ‘Hiving’ system AoC will have in its PvE border kingdoms where the controlling faction can build houses, trade, set up player shops and cantinas, etc.- but the enemy NPC factions, when left unchecked, will construct fortresses, siege weapons, and ground forces of their own to root you out. This would give the PvE players non-stop, immersive action that would support grouping for a common cause against the local forces, keeping their population and military forces in check- or having to pay the consequences by being forced from the planet, and having to conquer it all over again from the beginning, starting with orbital control.

 

Cons w/ Factions & Technology: At first glance, we’re all thinking to ourselves that the grand scale of things is unrealistic… Yeah, I realize it’s a bit of a stretch you goofballs, but think for a minute about a Star Wars Universe populated by hundreds of thousands- possibly millions- of gamers of all 4 factions each plotting and vying for control of the universe. Planetary conquests would need strategic planning and massive amounts of coordination- individual players and guilds would emerge as battlefield and orbital commanders, dishing out orders to the thousands of troops and coordinating assaults that may have taken weeks to prepare for.

Yes, for an MMO today, this would be unrealistic indeed. But who knows - here in 7-12 years, we might have server technology that enables hundreds of thousands of players to play on one server or a persistent server cluster rendering one galaxy together without any lag involved whatsoever. We have to dream right?

So in essence, having these 4 gigantic factions- which should each have a consistent fan base and following of players- could possibly work- if you can get that many players on one server. I mean, theoretically, it could work on a server that holds 8-10,000 players without lag, and we’re not that far away from that – but even then, with a universe that has over 10+ planets, some might be under-populated or easily conquered because they are off the beaten path or there’s just not enough of the population to cover them.

Some might be saying (oh my gosh the devs will have to spend 10+ years creating content for all these huge planets and for such a large galaxy, etc.) Well, yes, the devs will have to spend 2 years of content development at least, but let us not forget that linear games where the devs have put content as their top priority have not necessarily done so well (let’s not forget the example of Vanguard).

Lets take the pre-CU SWG as an example for a moment - a game with hundreds of thousands of players that was in its prime – there was crap for content at the highest levels of gameplay, yet it was a classic game everyone enjoyed…why?

Because once the players maxed out their skill trees and professions, player cities took on a life of their own, and faction battles, organized raids, and player conflict evolved to the point where SWG didn’t really need any content at the higher levels for the most part, because on high population servers, there was always drama on every planet, whether it was Imperials chasing Rebels through Naboo, both factions fighting over Krayt Dragons and resources on Tatooine, Rebel groups running assaults on Imperial player cities and guilds, players developing an identity for their player city with bustling cantinas and active entertainment from player dancers and musicians, etc, etc.- the list goes on folks. None of that was the devs adding any ‘content’ into the game..

Just think if we had the amount of planets, resources, and the game mechanics I speak about concerning this game- how fun it would be to take over these planets with our factions first, then once again establish player towns and outposts that each develop their own identity and fame for one reason or another. Perhaps the Vong take over Yavin IV, and a certain player-made city (organically grown in the Vong sense) becomes famous for always routing any invading forces around their control point…the city becomes notorious for its warriors and defenders to the point where a faction has to gather an army just to try and overcome this particular outpost….players and warriors become famous within the communities, cities and battles gain notoriety, and all of this contributes to the immersive feel of the game.

So- with these type of game mechanics involved, the devs wouldn’t have to spend years just to develop ‘high level content’ as we’ve all dubbed it – the content – at least the very high level stuff- would be up to the factions, and I doubt with so many diverse players from across the world on such few servers would disappoint in terms of bringing dynamic events to the table that stir the galaxy every week.

 

[Reign]

Classes – The perfect class system for me would be tied in directly to the factions, almost like a Real vs. Realm game similar to the upcoming Warhammer Online. It would be the first option you choose at character creation before you even get to the character creation screen. You’re virtually encouraging your player-base away from the anti-social, neutral type characters and urging them to get involved in the fun events and core gameplay elements the game is designed for. (although players could still solo and stay out of the conflict in certain areas if that is their priority)

Although the game, in essence, would likely be centered around Jedi, Sith, and the physics of saber and Force combat, I wouldn’t want to limit the game by focusing it around those two factions and their abilities as lightsaber wielding Force users. The Yuuzhan Vong would be a nice counterbalance to the lightsaber and blaster repetitiveness, as they use organically grown weapons, vehicles, ships, etc. You could also include Soldier, Bounty Hunter, and Assassin classes into the Imperial Remnant faction, as well as Commando and Smuggler classes into the Jedi-Republic Alliance faction to mix things up and provide ranged combat specialist for folks who do not wish to clash lightsabers or amphistaffs.

The Jedi classes could represent balanced offensive and defense capabilities, the Sith classes stealth, damage, and power, the Yuuzhan Vong high vitality and constitution and debuffing, and the Imperial Remnant could represent powerful ranged classes combined with stealth-like aspects. Theres a million different directions you could go- but having these particular 4 factions and their classes could give just about any kind of star wars fan an avatar role they are comfortable in fulfilling.

 

Ability System – I’ll stick by my belief that the best ability system for MMO’s is a combination of class direction and interchangeable skills you can level up and slot into your character. Flexibility is key, and I love the idea of pool skills that every class can use…Let me give you an example:

Let’s say you choose to play the offensive Jedi class. Even though your character has many deadly saber combinations and acrobatic moves in combat, you have a limited amount of defensive skills you can slot, and because of that you have a limited amount of defensive skills you take advantage of in combat. So you go to the defensive skill pool list, and have to make some tough decisions- do you go for the blaster bolt deflection skill, or the advanced saber blocking skill which makes you tougher to harm in melee combat?

Well, depending on the player, you can go many different ways when there are multiple defensive options. This promotes flexibility and diversity in each persons character, as some might play in Imperial Remnant areas that are populated with blaster and rifle users…Others may do some hunting or PvP in Sith zones, where Saber battles are constant, and therefore you may elect the upgraded saber blocking ability in your defensive slot over bolt deflection…I just love any type of system that lets the player choose some of his strengths and weakness, and allows you to change those depending on the situation later in your character’s development. Nothing pisses me off more than to be pigeon-holed into something for the lifespan of my toon.



Reality Check- Save the speeches on how this game will never be made…I know it wont..at least in my unlucky gaming lifespan…But we all can dream, and I figured I could infuse a little creative discussion on what everyone thinks would be their perfect Star Wars MMO. What it be in a KOTOR setting, or perhaps an expanded universe current setting where we can see and feel the aftermath of the Vong war, etc….


What gameplay elements or features of mine do you agree with, which would you change, why would you change them, what could be added to the feature list to make it even more awe inspiring for the generations of future gamers, etc..?

Again, just for some healthy discussion…. ; )

[Kail]

A few things that strike me:

Number one, I really dislike the EU setting.  How many people do you think seriously know or care what the Yuuzhan Vong are?  If you're going to say "screw continuity, I'm going to let the Imperial Remnant (or whoever) conquer the galaxy no matter what happens in the EU," why not just set it at some undefined point during the original trilogy, or during the Clone Wars, and let things unfold however they happen?  At least that way, you'd start with the iconic Star Wars setting (Vader, Death Star, et al.), rather than this kind of semi-related setting that relatively few people outside the very hardcore know or care about.

Two: Another Class/Level based PvP system?  Can we pleeeeeease move away from that?  I hate, hate, hate level based PvP.  And why have classes in a Star Wars game?  It seems to me you'd have maybe three, total:  "guy with Lightsaber", "guy with blaster", and "guy who flies ship".  Maybe some kind of "guy who doesn't get to do anything interesting but is vitally important to the economy" class, for all the people who want to live the dream of being C-3PO.  But trying to come up with a dozen different classes that all do basically the same thing is how SWG ended up with people running around with pikes and tamed wampas and wierd stuff like that.  Something skill based (like EVE), in my opinion, would be vastly preferable, and not so vulnerable to clutter.

Three: It seems like there's a bit of bias here towards Jedi or other force users.  You've got all kinds of options (Customizable lightsabers?  "Supplimental force skills"?) which are only applicable to them.  And if you're going to stay in line with the lore, your average Jedi should be able to kick the shit out of a number of Imperial Remnant players that approaches infinity.

And you've got four factions there: the good guys (OMG T3H J3D1! WITH LUK3 4ND H4N 4ND LIEA!!!!!) and a handful of bad guys that nobody's heard of (the Imperial Remnant?  That's like the Empire, except minus all the cool characters, and they always get their asses kicked, right?  SIGN ME UP!).  These four factions are going to battle over major PvP objectives in a non-instanced universe?  And holding these planets would give significant bonuses to the victor?  I can't see this staying numerically balanced for long.  How many people are seriously going to play as Yuuzhan Vong, versus how many people are going to just instantly click on "Jedi"?

Also, this kind of jumped out at me:

Maybe its only me, but playing a game in a current expanded universe setting where my character could actually exist amid all the things that are actively taking place in the SW universe, and actually making an impact- including the new plots, characters, etc.- is something much more exciting and intriguing than playing an avatar, who, when reading the new stories that come out in the Star Wars EU, you know he's probably been dead for thousands of years and had very little meaning on the universe as a whole. I also see many things, story-line and lore wise, that they can do with a KOTNR or NJOO that they may not be able to do with a KOTOR-like game.

You really think that the "Star Wars Universe" means something?  Like there's some "Official Lucas Stamp of Approval" or something which means that the things taking place in this game are going to be the really real version of Star Wars?  The idea that your character "could actually exist amid all the things that are actively taking place in the SW universe" seems bizarre, since that is exactly what they are already doing in KOTOR or SWG.  Even though KOTOR takes place umpty bazillion years before A New Hope, it was written relatively recently; if you wrote a new novel in KOTOR and another in NJO, they would both be "actively taking place" in the Star Wars universe.  You say about KOTOR (I presume): "when reading the new stories that come out in the Star Wars EU, you know he's probably been dead for thousands of years and had very little meaning on the universe as a whole", like it's supposed to mean something.  First of all, any character in any MMO is going to have very little effect on the universe as a whole; that's how MMOs work.  Second of all, why would I care what some author has to say about stuff that happened in another story only tangentially related to the one I'm currently reading/playing?  And third, you really think that Michael Stackpole is going to write his next novel about how -D4RtH_P3N1sL0L- and his evil band of marauders camped the Jedi spawning point for three weeks before getting bored and wandering off to kill some mynocks for their fangs, or what? How is Star Wars Galaxies any less in the Star Wars Universe than this game?  I don't get it.

[Reign]

Number one, I really dislike the EU setting.  How many people do you think seriously know or care what the Yuuzhan Vong are?

 

Looks like you're in the minority there bud....I think a lot of people care-and know- about the Yuuzhan Vong- evidenced by every NJO novel shooting up the Best Seller list as soon as its released. 

Or I should, in a politically correct way, state that anyone who cares to play a SW MMO in the first place would likely know, and if they dont, they would quickly come to like/respect the Vong after fighting one. Their philosophy and cultural practices are fascinating to say the least, and it was a pleasure reading and experiencing their ideology.

If you're going to say "screw continuity, I'm going to let the Imperial Remnant (or whoever) conquer the galaxy no matter what happens in the EU," why not just set it at some undefined point during the original trilogy, or during the Clone Wars, and let things unfold however they happen?

 

First of all, Im not saying screw continuity, Im saying let players mold the continuity without having to go by any pre-determined conditions or some knowledge about how things are going to end up..leave it open-ended...Also- why not do it in the Clone wars or the original Trilogy? Uumm, because we've played that song and dance about a thousand times already, which was one of my largest points.

At least that way, you'd start with the iconic Star Wars setting (Vader, Death Star, et al.), rather than this kind of semi-related setting that relatively few people outside the very hardcore know or care about.

So your glorious idea is to put 'Vader' back in the fold of another game? Lord....You certainly have put up your anti-EU flag..lol

And do you mean the same few people that put dozens of EU books on the nationwide best seller lists constantly? Ahhh....that few million...whoops, my bad... 

Another Class/Level based PvP system?  Can we pleeeeeease move away from that?  I hate, hate, hate level based PvP.

 

Hmm...I seem to remember writing about a Class/Skill system, and briefly mentioned leveling up skills much like SWG-which was a great UO 'use and gain' system that seemed to be perfectly fine with thousands of players. I'm also against traditional character leveling systems myself, so we share that view.

It seems like there's a bit of bias here towards Jedi or other force users.

Well, Star Wars without Jedi would be, well, Star Trek, and we're not even going to go there....Jedi/Sith are the foundation of the Star Wars story, and their lore/aura/essence/whatever you want to call it is key reason why Star Wars is the genre that it is....and let me also state for the record that, if Bioware is indeed making a KOTOR game, they will realize this fact as well and focus many development points on the Jedi/Sith conflict. I was assuming that any casual fan would know and realize this, but I guess I was wrong...unless you're not a fan- and that wouldnt suprise me given your views of the EU.

Your average Jedi should be able to kick the shit out of a number of Imperial Remnant players that approaches infinity.

Dont know about inifinity, I think you're going a bit extreme with the sarcasm, but there is a disparity of skill there...Bioware is going to ahve to face this same issue unless they limit their game to Force using classes, which I dont think they will do. perhaps the key phrase is 'Balance over Cannon' when it comes to this point, just like it was in SWG eventually...I honestly havet come up with a good counter to this fact yet that works....

These four factions are going to battle over major PvP objectives in a non-instanced universe?  And holding these planets would give significant bonuses to the victor?  I can't see this staying numerically balanced for long.  How many people are seriously going to play as Yuuzhan Vong, versus how many people are going to just instantly click on "Jedi"?

I see Jedi and Sith being the heavy favorites, and balancing each other out...With Vong and Remnant having smaller main populations (which would actually follow continuity-although I thinkt he Remnant would have a suprising following), but having heavy alt populations. The Jedi-Republic Alliance should be the dog on top anyways because of the millions of systems within the Republic's domain. I wouldnt have a terrible problem of being an underdog if I chose the Sith, Vong, or Remnant. And the way you state this makes me think you didnt play SWG much and see that the Imperial friendly players heavily outnumbered the rebels on many servers.

You really think that the "Star Wars Universe" means something?  Like there's some "Official Lucas Stamp of Approval" or something which means that the things taking place in this game are going to be the really real version of Star Wars?  The idea that your character "could actually exist amid all the things that are actively taking place in the SW universe" seems bizarre, since that is exactly what they are already doing in KOTOR or SWG.

 

Us humans have a funny way of looking at timelines, and thinking on a 'time' basis. KOTOR is supposed to be thousands of years ago, and in the game that time is 'revisited' if you will, just like the pre-quel movies. Im just speaking in Star Wars terms for the 'current' hapennings and events in the EU as the 'modern' SW universe, and just wishing for a change of scenery. You take things a bit too deep with your drawn out statement, and put up your anti-EU flag even further..Im starting to wonder- did you read any of the NJO series at all?

First of all, any character in any MMO is going to have very little effect on the universe as a whole; that's how MMOs work.

Man, if developers had your mentality 10 years ago MMO's would have never happened...Plenty of single characters/players impacted my server, setting, politics, and game events in UO, EQ, EQ2, SWG, CoX, etc....thats the beauty of having different personalities, skill levels, and political mindsets from across the world on one server- one player can make an impact, especially if the game is a PvP game- all Im wishing for is more gameplay mechanics that support individuals making an impact. So sorry, I whole-heartedly disagree with you there.

And third, you really think that Michael Stackpole is going to write his next novel about how -D4RtH_P3N1sL0L- and his evil band of marauders camped the Jedi spawning point for three weeks before getting bored and wandering off to kill some mynocks for their fangs, or what?

Nice attempt at being 'witty', but you come off sounding grumpy....No, I dont expect for Stackpole to write about an individual necessarily, but moreso about the grand scheme of things happening...perhaps that could be a big bonus to the game- if the feats you pull off catch the attention of the devs- if you beat the odds in some ridiculous way and basically make legendary accomplishments in-game- perhaps it could, in some way, be mentioned in a novel or future single player RPG, etc. I guess Im just not a person who likes to say 'this is impossible, that would never happen!!! lolzzz!'.... I figured since we're talking about the perfect MMO, why not have the fluff that goes with it? A chance for an author to write on some major battle that happened in-game between a couple of forces in a later novel - its really not something as far off and as 'audaciously ridiculous dude!' as you would make it.

Hell if Bioware makes KOTOR, expect some novels out about that setting as well, possibly on the subject of a major player event/war/whatever, just emphasized on and dressed up for reading pleasure..the sky's the limit when we're dreaming right? 


But one thing is clear- if it was up to you, we would have another game with the same Darth Vader in the same original trilogy with the same stormtroopers, characters, ships, and settings we've seen over a million times by now...Blame me for thinking a bit more 'out of the box' I guess, and wanting something intriguing and a different for a change in this rehashed genre.

[WindupAtheist]

Hi.  I'm the f13 resident Star Wars fanboy.  I know exactly what a Yuuzhan Vong is.  It's a fucking retarded plot device used to sell reams of shitty books to the "as bad as Trekkies" segment of Star Wars fandom.   Fuck them, and fuck the EU.

[Kail]

You certainly have put up your anti-EU flag..lol

I sense... much anger in this one...

First, I don't care about the EU that much.  I don't like it, but I also don't hate it.  They're just some books; I just don't have any kind of emotional connection to them one way or the other.  But Star Wars is iconic.  Even people who know almost nothing about sci-fi know about Darth Vader and can quote Yoda, but they don't know who the Yuuzhan Vong are.  I'm aware that the books sell fairly well for books.  They are nowhere near as popular as the movies.  The movies are popular enough that Jay Leno or Jon Stewart can make a reference and be confident that people will get it; the NJO has nowhere near that kind of universality.  So why focus a game around them?  If you want your game to be popular, you don't want to exclude the people who haven't read NJO.  And if you don't care about popularity, why not just write your own MMO setting where you don't have to worry about all this licensing and continuity baggage, and you can set it without having all these built-in problems (like Jedi unbalancing combat)?

Number two:  The Yuuzhan "philosophy and cultural practices" are going to be a bunch of guys standing around going "ROFL, chuk noris could kick darth vaders ass with 1 kick lol"  You know this; you've played enough games to have seen it.  I'm sure their ideology was interesting in the books, but how well is it going to carry in to an MMO?  Outside of a few bits of lore and some NPC text, you have no control over what your player is going to say or hear from other players.  That's why I'd advocate using Vader and the other icons of the series.  People already know what they are, so you won't have to explain it, the way you would with the Yuuzhan Vong.  I'm not saying that the EU sucks or anything, but it's not as recognizable as the movies are.  I mean, unless I'm mistaken, we haven't even seen a lot of the characters in NJO.  We don't have their pictures, just their descriptions.  So when someone logs on and sees Overlord Shimrra, they're not going to know who he is, even if they have read the novels.  But if they log on and see Vader, everyone knows who they're dealing with.  This isn't some slam against the series or anything, it's just not as recognizable, and we're dealing with MMO players, who click past everything that can possibly be clicked past, so any chance we have to inject atmosphere to the game that doesn't require them to read something, I suggest we take.

Nice attempt at being 'witty', but you come off sounding grumpy....No, I dont expect for Stackpole to write about an individual necessarily, but moreso about the grand scheme of things happening...perhaps that could be a big bonus to the game- if the feats you pull off catch the attention of the devs- if you beat the odds in some ridiculous way and basically make legendary accomplishments in-game- perhaps it could, in some way, be mentioned in a novel or future single player RPG, etc. I guess Im just not a person who likes to say 'this is impossible, that would never happen!!! lolzzz!'.... I figured since we're talking about the perfect MMO, why not have the fluff that goes with it? A chance for an author to write on some major battle that happened in-game between a couple of forces in a later novel - its really not something as far off and as 'audaciously ridiculous dude!' as you would make it.

Well, sorry to sound grumpy.  I apologize for crushing your dreams.  But if you want to write a story about your character from Star Wars Galaxies or KOTOR, nobody is stopping you.  Many people have already done that.  I just don't get the importance you put on it being "official."  This dramatic, defying the odds stuff happens every day in every MMO, and it's interesting to the people playing.  That's enough for them, and it's enough for me.  It does sound a bit pie-eyed to believe that one day, I could be the next Luke Skywalker, because I really rocked in an MMO or something.  If you're having fun playing the game, I'd say that's enough.  That's the point of the game.  I don't need George Lucas to come down and tell me I'm a credit to the license or anything; that seems completely outside the scope of the design, like it's not even something that should be considered.  It's like desigining a restaurant with the express purpose of introducing aspiring actors and actresses to movie producers.  Maybe it would happen, but it's not something you'd work around as a goal.

And yes, if I was designing a Star Wars MMO, it would probably not be set in the EU.  But I happen to like Star Wars.  I liked the characters, I liked the ships, I liked the setting, and I'd like to see a good MMO of it.  Maybe that would happen in the EU, I'm not saying it wouldn't, but I don't think that we should just trash the original trilogy because it's been done.  Yes, it has been done.  It was called Star Wars, and I liked it.  That's why I want to see more of it.

[eldaec]

The EU is a cancer on the SW canon, which ensures that 95% of products based outside of the film periods will be shit. It contains too many lame plot devices, too many excuses to just say 'hey lets make jedi even more powerful, but inexplicably just for this moment in the plot', and far too many Solo-babies.

[SnakeCharmer]

Oh good Gawd...

Shouldn't this have been posted at mmmorpg.com or bioware.com?

[Reign]

So I guess that, if Bioware makes a SW MMO, I shouldnt expect to see you guys playing it since you hate the EU so much, eh? 


You guys are laughable..you talk big, but you'll be salivating the first time a new and fresh SW MMO is released....thats just plain obvious...I'll see you on the Bioware forums guys.... ; )

Sales figures for games like KOTOR and Jedi Academy prove that SW fans-as a whole- are about sick fo this original trilogy bullshit.

[Reign]

And just to further that though, a couple of you are sounding like tweakers in a rehab facility that cant get off the same shit you've been fed by dealers for the last 30 years....think about how that relates to the original trilogy...


Anyways- get off the EU aspect for a moment, and dive into what you think would be the perfect MMO and how these features correlate- what features would you take out (besides the gd EU, what would you leave in, why, etc.)

[Strazos]

I think you're missing the point that most of the people here are only concerned with how fun the GAME actually is; no one gives half a rat's ass about the SW EU or whatthefuckever.

And if Bioware's MMO is placed in said EU (which I doubt), a fair number of people here will at least give it a shot, because we're interested in Good Games. The EU is irrelevant.

[SnakeCharmer]

So I guess that, if Bioware makes a SW MMO, I shouldnt expect to see you guys playing it since you hate the EU so much, eh? 


You guys are laughable..you talk big, but you'll be salivating the first time a new and fresh SW MMO is released....thats just plain obvious...I'll see you on the Bioware forums guys.... ; )

Sales figures for games like KOTOR and Jedi Academy prove that SW fans-as a whole- are about sick fo this original trilogy bullshit.

See below for answer.

I think you're missing the point that most of the people here are only concerned with how fun the GAME actually is; no one gives half a rat's ass about the SW EU or whatthefuckever.

DING DING DING DING!!!

[Reign]

Hmm..so THATS the reason all the features and gameplay elements I went into detail about were ignored, and the arguments went straight to the EU factor?

You guys are absolute retards...get your statements straight before trying to bark at someone...seems like you're actually the ones missing the point of the thread...

[SnakeCharmer]

Hmm..so THATS the reason all the features and gameplay elements I went into detail about were ignored, and the arguments went straight to the EU factor?

You guys are absolute retards...get your statements straight before trying to bark at someone...seems like you're actually the ones missing the point of the thread...

No.

You're not saying anything that hasn't been said here, bioware.com, the official swg forums, mmorpg.com, or any other gaming site.

You're not saying anything new.

Try not to cry anymore, ok?  It's unbecoming.   Just take your ball and go home.  It's a tired franchise that they're trying to milk every last penny out of it.  SWG/SOE and to a large degree LA have pretty much ruined any new SW MMO for the next 5-10 years which pretty much means you'll never see one again.

[CmdrSlack]

Hmm..so THATS the reason all the features and gameplay elements I went into detail about were ignored, and the arguments went straight to the EU factor?

You guys are absolute retards...get your statements straight before trying to bark at someone...seems like you're actually the ones missing the point of the thread...

Wow, way to make friends and influence people, hoss.  None of your gameplay elements are innovative.  Moreover, you spent so much time going on and on that most people likely only read your "back of the box marketing speak" summaries.  Why?  Because it was a tedious read.  This doesn't even come close to being an adequate design document and so what are they supposed to say?  You have a class based system with swappable bonus skills.  So yeah, that's about half the diku market right now.  You have levels.  Your most innovative and interesting ideas are related to character creation and clothing and item customization.  Those are actually rather nifty.

What would have been a better approach, IMO, would have been focusing on things like ship boarding, the customizing, etc.  And only that.  Seriously.  Sixteen races?  Whoop-de-freakin-shit.  You spent so much time sucking the EU's cock that you forgot to parse your mega post down to the most important, salient points.

And now, when people latch onto your EU-fellating post, you call them retards.  WTG, Einstein!  Maybe we can make a page for you on Wookieepedia as the biggest asshat to ever post a game idea, then flame those who respond to what seems to be the main theme of your post.  We could call you Darth Clownshoes.  It'd be fucking epic.  At any rate, when you main thesis is "ZOMG AN EU GAME WOULD ROX," and you develop all of your ideas from there, expect people to address your main thesis.  I know it's a shocker.  But, ironically enough, that's how writing works.  You see, you posit a main thesis, then support that with other detail.  People then address the main thesis first, because, you know that's why it's called a MAIN thesis.

If you expected constructive-criticism mollycoddling, maybe you should have presented your idea to your game design class at fucking DeVry.  For fuck's sake, even in my advanced poetics workshops in college, people's work took infinitely more flak than your game design screed.  Nobody went home and cried, or called people retards.

In summation, grow a pair, de-sand your vagina, and learn to present your ideas in a format that gets people to address the ideas you want addressed.  If you want them to focus on your game design ideas, then WRITE ABOUT THOSE FIRST.

Either that or go fap it to a picture of Leia in the gold bikini. 

[Strazos]

You guys are absolute retards...get your statements straight before trying to bark at someone...seems like you're actually the ones missing the point of the thread...

Don't be an asshat.

I'm trying to play some Odin Sphere, so don't make me come back here and SirBruce your post. Just move on.

[WindupAtheist]

I'll just paste something I said in another thread.

They should have just set the game in the immediate aftermath of the movies, with a disclaimer that the story wasn't going to be bound by the post-movie EU.  Spin it in a positive way.  "It's an alternate timeline because we don't control it, YOU PLAYERS DO!"  Of course they don't, but it's a routine likely to satisfy even the canon-mongering EU fanboys.

This way, you can do whatever the fuck you want.  Want some Jedi?  Sure, Luke is rebuilding the order and is taking applications from newbs.  Sith too?  Okay, (new villain here) has claimed the vacant title of Sith Lord and wants newbs to be his minions.  Neither one?  Fine, Luke isn't hiring right now and the Sith are all dead.

You want a faction-based PVP war with roughly-equivalent sides?  Okay, hit the "START MMO" button just as Admiral (new villain) has taken control of the failing, decapitated Empire and somewhat stabilized it at a point where it's roughly equal in size to the good guy's republic.  You want three or more sides?  Invent something.  A bunch of competing successor states splintering off of a dying empire is perfectly believable.

It's not quite as "iconic" as the original trilogy era, but it's a hell of a lot easier to manage.  Besides which "It starts right after the movies end!" seems like a pretty simple, marketable concept.  You still have Han, and Luke, and Chewie and all them around, and you're not bound by a bunch of faggoty EU Yuuzhan Vong shit.

[damijin]

-snipped to help fight the huge amount of text on this page-

There were a vast quantity of SW MUDs that existed in that exact setting and were quite successful at doing it. I thought that's what they'd do with SWG, but by the time it was going into development I was just happy that it wasn't going to be during the prequels.

In a related matter, those Star Wars muds are probably still a hell of a lot more fun than SWG, at least for Wars fans.

[eldaec]

Hmm..so THATS the reason all the features and gameplay elements I went into detail about were ignored, and the arguments went straight to the EU factor?

The reason the rest of that masturbatory claptrap was ignored, was that it's all been covered before enormous detail, in threads that don't have an opening post that is far too long, meandering, and random.

Take a look at the other threads on this subforum that got going properly, most of them try to cover some specific aspect of gameplay or some specfic system and discuss it properly. If you want to talk about something as general as this, you still need to cut the waffle; and if you really must rehash old discussions like 'everyone on a single shard plz!' at least make they effort to understand the counterargument which has been made about a gazillion times and say why you disagree.

[Trippy]

Hmm..so THATS the reason all the features and gameplay elements I went into detail about were ignored, and the arguments went straight to the EU factor?

You guys are absolute retards...get your statements straight before trying to bark at someone...seems like you're actually the ones missing the point of the thread...

Somebody forgot to put on his Nomex suit after titling his post "The Perfect SW MMO".

Putting together these sorts of wild-eye feature lists is a trivial exercise that has nothing to do with how fun the game will be. It's also the path that leads to games like Vanguard, which on paper, looked to be the greatest fantasy MMO that would ever be created in our lifetimes.

[damijin]

Vanguard, which on paper, looked to be the greatest fantasy MMO that would ever be created in our lifetimes.

Must have been some very impressive looking paper.

[eldaec]

It's also the path that leads to games like Vanguard, which on paper, looked to be the greatest fantasy MMO that would ever be created in our lifetimes.

That's a negative, even on paper Vanguard had both Brad, and corpse runs ;) .

[Trippy]

It's also the path that leads to games like Vanguard, which on paper, looked to be the greatest fantasy MMO that would ever be created in our lifetimes.

That's a negative, even on paper Vanguard had both Brad, and corpse runs ;) .

But but it had hit locations (anybody remember that feature?) and trees you could debuff! If only they had the time and money to put it all into the game -- it would've been awesome!

[Samwise]

If you expected constructive-criticism mollycoddling, maybe you should have presented your idea to your game design class at fucking DeVry.

GOLD.

[schild]

Does it matter what it says when it makes me feel like this?

[Wolf]

I spent half of this thread wondering why are people bashing the European Union and what does it have to do with Star Wars.

[eldaec]

I spent half of this thread wondering why are people bashing the European Union and what does it have to do with Star Wars.

Happily, my posts apply to both  :-D

[DraconianOne]

Sales figures for games like KOTOR and Jedi Academy prove that SW fans-as a whole- are about sick fo this original trilogy bullshit.

Do the Sales Figures for these games reflect the fact that the EU is what "SW fans" want or the fact that these were good games?  The last "good" OT game to be released was X-Wing Alliance.  There have been no good prequel games (except for possible Racer and perhaps Republic Commando) and the EU has not been a golden touch by any stretch of the imagination: Obi-Wan, Shadows of the Empire, Bounty Hunter to name but a few.

[eldaec]

Sales figures for games like KOTOR and Jedi Academy prove that SW fans-as a whole- are about sick fo this original trilogy bullshit.

Do the Sales Figures for these games reflect the fact that the EU is what "SW fans" want or the fact that these were good games?  The last "good" OT game to be released was X-Wing Alliance. 

Sadly what it reflects is that these games were released with 'star wars' written on the box.

And have any OT games at all been released since XWA?

(JK2 was post-OT EU bollocks)

AFAIK The only good Star Wars computer games ever are the XWing / TIE Fighter series, Dark Forces, Dark Forces 2 (Jedi Knight 1), and Kotor1.

But I don't think anyone is denying that people will buy shit with EU crap in it. However, since we're a bunch of elitist pricks, we still get to turn our collective nose up at anything we damn well like. This is not IGN.

[Cyndre]

Maybe we can make a page for you on Wookieepedia as the biggest asshat to ever post a game idea, then flame those who respond to what seems to be the main theme of your post.  We could call you Darth Clownshoes.  It'd be fucking epic.

I lol'd.

[DraconianOne]

And have any OT games at all been released since XWA?

Empire At War (didn't play it - crap by all accounts)
Force Commander (had potential but was buggy and had an awful interface)
Galactic Battlegrounds (OT and Ep. 1. I found it a little dull but should probably revisit it.)
Battlefront/Battlefront 2 (both OT and prequels - enjoyable but not great)
Rogue Squadron 2 and 3 don't count because they were only released for Gamecube.
Lego Star Wars 2 (Striving for one of the best Star Wars games evah! Fact.)

(JK2 was post-OT EU bollocks)

JK1 was post-OT too (the expansion for JK (Mysteries of the Sith) definitely was - it had Mara Jade and a load of EU related stuff from the first Zahn trilogy) - "no lightsabre wielding dudes in OT timeline at any point, thank you very much" was Lucasarts' official stance which is why Dark Forces was OT but sequels weren't.  Why this went out of the window with SWG is simply pandering to the drooling masses who wanted to have a lightsabre.  And to cash tie in on the prequels.  
I was thinking about it earlier and to date I don't think there has been a decent strategy game based in the OT timeline.  Attempts, yes, but most of it has been unplayable.  Rebellion/Supremacy anyone?

On topic - one of the problems I have with this "design" is that it still permits player jedi.  The only way they can be implemented is as an 'alpha' class which would defeat the purpose of any meaningful pvp with anybody who wasn't a Jedi or Vong.  So all those who wanted to be smugglers or bounty hunters or regular troops would still be second class citizens.  

[eldaec]

"no lightsabre wielding dudes in OT timeline at any point, thank you very much" was Lucasarts' official stance which is why Dark Forces was OT but sequels weren't. Why this went out of the window with SWG is simply pandering to the drooling masses who wanted to have a lightsabre.  And to cash tie in on the prequels. 

The genuine honest to goodness answer to that is that lucasarts licensing people had an established policy that canon is interpreted strictly for single player games, but doesn't matter a damn for multiplayer games.

This is also the publically stated reason why Kyle Katarn's lightsaber changed colour for single player JK2, but also why in multiplayer you can have any damn colour you like.

It might sound comical, and I don't know if it still applies today, but at the time of SWG and JK2 design - those were the rules.

EDIT
And now you mention it DF2/JK1 was post-OT you're right. It opened with a discussion between KK and Mon Mothma, who had apparently been promoted to president on the grounds that there are no other politicians with speaking parts in RotJ. Or something. Also, the multiplayer game had yasalami...yamatahari...yasamarafati....yamaharty.... stupid EU bollocks lizards that stopped jedi spells working.

[WindupAtheist]

On topic - one of the problems I have with this "design" is that it still permits player jedi.  The only way they can be implemented is as an 'alpha' class...

Why, because they looked uber while tearing up piles of "Roger-roger, derpty derp!" battle droids?  In game terms those things are just newbie mobs.  Jango Fett, on the other hand, is a well-equipped PC in game terms, and he held his own just fine when Obi-Wan tried to gank him on the landing platform in Episode 2.

We saw plenty of Jedi killed by regular people in the prequels.  Balancing them for PVP wouldn't be that hard.

EDIT:  Just wanted to add, they're a melee class for chrissakes.  Give the non-Jedi classes a couple of good root/snare effects and you're halfway there.

[eldaec]

It's also true to say that nothing in the OT insists that Jedi can, for example, throw super star destroyers out of orbit by concentrating really hard. Or travel through time.

However, that's the power level people expect because of shitty EU bollocks.

Obi-wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker stand back-to-back fending off an army of droids and bounty hunters.

A ship drops out of the sky and lands on the battlefield, squashing the bad guys. Out step Grand Admiral Thrawn, Jorus C'boath, Prince Xizor, Dash Rendar, Garm Bel Iblis, Kyle Katarn, Mara Jade, a dozen cloned Emperors, a gaggle of Solo-babies, hundreds of Noghri, and a ysalamiri in a pear tree.

Obi-wan: Who are you people?

Thrawn: Well...that's a very long, boring, convoluted......

Xizor: ...and crappy, don't forget crappy!

Thrawn: ...yes, and crappy, story.

Anakin: Why are you here?

Thrawn: Because fanboys wanna see us. Aren't we cool?

Obi-wan: Umm.......no.

Xizor: Not even a little bit?

Obi-wan: Not even a little bit.

Thrawn: But, but, but........ZAHN RULES!!!! Besides, we brought you a delivery: some spaarti cylinders.

Anakin: Some what?

Thrawn: You know, spaarti cylinders. They're used to make clones.

Anakin: No they're not.

Jorus C'Boath: But you can imagine what it would be like if they were. Right?

Anakin: No. This is the Clone Wars. Don't you think we'd know about these things?

Thrawn: The CLONE WARS!? But, that's supposed to happen when you're four years old. You don't look four to me.

Anakin: Good point. Why don't you guys go back to Bpfassh, Myrkyr, Bakura, Shaba-daba-doobie, or whatever crappy planet you come from?

Thrawn: How dare you! Feel the wrath of my ysalamiri! It blocks out Force powers, you know.

Anakin: I feel fine. How 'bout you Obi-wan?

Obi-wan: I feel fine, too. Whoever told you guys that a lizard could block out the Force?

Thrawn: Well....

Mara Jade: Don't you at least like our ship? It's a Dreadnaught, you know.

Obi-wan: Looks like a real POS to me. You sure that's a real starship?

Thrawn: Not really, no. But I'm told they used to be all the rage in the galaxy during the Clone Wars.

Obi-wan: Do you see any 'Dreadnaughts' around here?

Thrawn: No....Come to think of it, I don't see any Z-95 Headhunters either.

Anakin: Thank the Force I don't have to pilot something called a 'Z-95 Headhunter'.

Xizor: Come on, give us a chance. Trust me, it all 'fits together' somehow. You just have to use a little 'imagination'.

Obi-wan: I sense a disturbance in the Force.

Anakin: I have a bad feeling about this.....

With apologies to whoever posted that long ago and far far away.