KOTNR - The Perfect SW MMO, An Examination

[DraconianOne]

Why, because they looked uber while tearing up piles of "Roger-roger, derpty derp!" battle droids?  In game terms those things are just newbie mobs.  Jango Fett, on the other hand, is a well-equipped PC in game terms, and he held his own just fine when Obi-Wan tried to gank him on the landing platform in Episode 2.

What? Jango Fett held his own against Obi Wan because baby Boba was firing at Obi-Wan with Slave One's cannons.   Highly equipped bounty hunter plus spaceship cannot defeat Jedi.  Highly equipped bounty hunter fires a fucking missile at Jedi without killing him.  (In Lego Star Wars, you get to force push the missiles back at Jango Fett because, you know, you're a Jedi and can do that)  Eventually, highly equipped bounty hunter gets wtfpwned by single Jedi in one stroke.  As does Zam Wessel at the beginning of the film.  Highly equipped Boba Fett also gets his gear destroyed by noob Jedi in ROTJ.

We saw plenty of Jedi killed by regular people in the prequels.  Balancing them for PVP wouldn't be that hard.

Examples?  The Jedi in the arena at the end of AOTC are ganked by hundreds of droids.  The Jedi who are purged by Order 66 in ROTS are shot in the back (i.e. ganked) by groups of clones.  I can't recall a single example of a Jedi being killed by a regular person, one on one, in any of the prequels.

EDIT:  Just wanted to add, they're a melee class for chrissakes.  Give the non-Jedi classes a couple of good root/snare effects and you're halfway there.

Melee with ranged saber throw, ranged force throw, ranged force choke, ranged force lightning...  root/snare = ability to bring down a walkway/column on your enemies.  They're also melee with close to 100% ranged mitigation.  (IIRC - didn't they actually have 100% ranged mitigation in SWG at one point?  I also seem to remember that got nerfed pretty damn quickly!)

We haven't even discussed the aspect of "Master" Jedi/Sith yet.  Sidious killed what? three or four "master" Jedi in a single AOE attack.  

The whole point of Jedi is that they're an alpha class.  Nerfing their abilities to make them balanced one on one with "regular" classes defeats the point of them being Jedi, of having attunement with the Force (or being infested with midifoozles depending on your preference).  

EDIT - because Eldaec posted first.

I nearly mentioned something about the fact that in the EU Luke used the force to bring an AT-AT to it's knees (Dark Empire?) but decided not to.  But Yoda could lift an X-Wing and The Emperor could hurl those Senate platform things around quite easily so that's probably not so far fetched. 

Also, to confuse matters, it was Zahn who created the planet Coruscant as being the capital of the Republic and Dash Rendar's ship did feature in the Special Edition bollocksy version of Ep IV. 

[Daztur]

Well what you could do is make every non-Jedi combat class a pet class, that way to beat a Jedi you would need your own character an a couple pets. But then that much pet-herding would get annoying after a while...

What would probably be better is to have basically everyone be a Jedi since that would probably make a lot more people happy than having no-one be a Jedi or only letting a small slice of your playerbase be Jedi.

[Cyndre]

A simple solution would be to make Jedi/ Sith a non-playable class, and automate their involement in a handful of quests/ encounters.  Then make each GM either a Jedi or a Sith, and allow them to become involved in the sphere/ shard/ server game through in-game events.

Example: GM Cyndre is instead Jedi Cyndre or Darth Cyndre.  If you see me, you know I am a GM.   If you violate the TOS I come in and fuck you up, followed by a ban.   Occasionally, I join a player event as the one jedi amidst a few hundred players battling [insert nerdy reference here]

As far as demographics and power distribution, the gm to player population would about equal what one would expect from Jedi/Sith to 'normal hero' in the books/ movies.

[CaptBewil]

Here it is, MY WIP STAR WARS MMOG design document.  Please keep an open mind and realize that this is incomplete and suggestions ARE welcomed!  Thanks!

PS, Humor me on the Prestige System. ;)

http://www.geocities.com/enhxko/mmo_idea.html

STAR WARS™ FPSMMORPG

Overview and General Outline

OBJECTIVE

The objective of this outline is to present an idea for a First Person Shooter Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game.  Even though this outline is tailored for a Star Wars Theme, it could easily be modified to work for any other theme.

 GENERAL OVERVIEW

The principles behind this idea were to find ways to reduce development coding time so that more time could be spent on artwork driven content.  Additionally, great care has been taken to establish a new system of character development and professions that are always balanced with respect to the choices a player makes.  It is beyond the scope of this text to establish the intricate relationships between every one of the various systems in place in the game.  One must take a step back and try to visualize the evolution of a character given the current restrictions.  It is also improper for one to assume a restriction exists without an explicit statement of such restriction being listed.

My thoughts is that if you can provide an MMO community with the tools to drive their own content for the game, then there would be no need to spend valuable development time on quest and mission driven content (which is both costly and time consuming).  This enables developers to focus more on the “Look and Feel” of the game so that players are more deeply immersed in their game and have more content to explore and/or utilize for strategic purposes.

Consequently as a result of this idea, players learn to work together as a team to accomplish goals.  This is something that has, to a great degree, been lost in modern RPG games.  Give players the tools and let them decide what happens in the story next.  Too often, developers attempt to control the game they have created.  This takes a great deal of enjoyment from the player experience.  Generally things are then made worse when developers attempt to change the game to better cater to the complainers.  This takes away game stability.  Develop a game, stick to the system, and let the player community deal with the complainers using the tools you’ve provided them with.

Note - A reference to ‘Character’ that is not specified means any Player Character or NPC.

 CHARACTER PLAN

There are two Primary Pools utilized in this FPS system.

1.      Health - The health of a player is represented by aa value between 0 and 1000 that is the same for all characters of that same race.  This number is recorded internally and is represented to the player in a bar of 0% to 100%.

2.      Stamina - The stamina of a player is represented by a value between 0 and 1100 that is the same for all characters of that same race.  This value caps for most players at 500.  Players start with 100 Stamina and it is increased by 100 for each Agility Level they gain up to Agility Level 4.  From there, this value is increased by 100 for each Jedi Rank level achieved.  This number is recorded internally and is represented to the player in a bar of 0% to 100%.

 *The exception to the values above are situations in which the number is modified by a race or profession driven modifier.  The percentage presented to the player is scaled appropriately.

 There are two Primary Stats utilized.

Strength - This stat controls the physical strength of a player which determines whether their commutative strength, together with any other players, is/are capable of moving a movable object.  This stat also determines a Character Players Aim Steadiness with ranged weapons and is the value that increases their chance of scoring a “Critical Hit” on another Character.
Agility - This stat accounts for the defensive value for a character when it is not overridden by another value (such as an Armor rating).  This stat also directly affects a characters ability to change direction, jump height, running speed, and damage mitigation (how likely they are to receive a “Glancing Blow” from an attack).
 
*The Max Primary Stat Values are (not including innate and modifiers):

Strength = 6
Agility = 4
 
*Every 3 months a player is given 1 point that they can either apply to their Strength or Agility stat value.

 There are two Secondary Stats utilized.

Armor - This is simply the armor rating value of the armor a character is wearing on a scale of 3-5.  The defensive value of a character is the higher of the Armor or the Agility numbers.
Force-Sensitivity - This is a series of rating starting at Agility Level 3.  This value controls what Force abilities are associated with a character at that level.
 
*All Characters enter the world with the following Secondary Stats (innate and modifier bonuses not withstanding):

Strength = 0
Agility = 0
Armor = 0
Force = 0

[CaptBewil]

CLASS SYSTEM

            Here’s another first for an RPG (I think).  It’s based off of similar systems which decide how other NPC’s treat you (often referred to as a Reputation System).  The “Reputation” system for determining friendly/enemy alignment is contained within the Faction system.  However, it is more fundamental then most because it’s done as Boolean Yes or No (of whether a player is a friendly or not).  The class system, however, uses a Prestige System.  The system uses the following 100 point scale:

0-49 = Third Class
50-79 = Second Class
80-100 = First Class
 
Class will determine what kind of access you have to prestigious areas of the game world.  So, in a way, it affects what kind of game content you can access.  In this way, it encourages players to work towards achieving First Class so they can have full access.  In some cases it may affect more of how you access content whether then if.  For instance, a First Class citizen may be able to land in a good part of town while a second class citizen is forced to land in a scummier part of town and a third class citizen may be barred from landing altogether.  At first glance, this seems a bit steep, but its purpose will be revealed through the rest of this outline.

 Prestige Points are given and taken away in the following manner:

10 Prestige Points will be granted to each player per month.
1 Prestige Point is deducted for each word of profanity a player uses.
1 Prestige Point is deducted for slaying an unarmed civilian (NPC).
5 Prestige Points are deducted for slaying an unarmed Player.
 
*Players are not allowed to unequip weapons while in combat.  Upon death, if unarmed, a player gets an option to Report the crime to the authorities.  If the player chooses ‘NO’ then nothing happens other then them waking up in the nearest cloning facility.  If the player chooses ‘YES’ then the player who slayed them will receive a 5pt deduction.  Five of these types of crimes reported in this manner will result in a Bounty being placed on the offending player.  In this manner, the system allows the players to handle grievers.  If players want to bully unarmed players, then they’ll have to deal with the Bounty Hunters that come after them.

 RACES

I’m approaching Races a bit out of the norm.  The reason I chose the following races and statistic bonuses was to develop a way to ‘coach’ the player base into a racial depiction that is similar to that of the Star Wars universe.  One could call it racial discrimination (and, indeed, that would be the first complaint given from a player base on the system), but the focus of the game is more on the game itself and not the players appearance.  Bare in mind that players love to differentiate themselves from other players and this system will allow them to do just that without throwing the combat system out of balance.

 HUMANS

·        Alderaanian (Leia) - 1st Class Citizen (80) - Stamina Stat Bonus

·        Eriaduian (Tarkin) - 1st Class Citizen (85)- Stamina Stat Bonus

·        Nabooian (Padame) - 1st Class Citizen (90)- Stamina Stat Bonus

·        Corellian (Han) - 2nd Class Citizen (70)- Health Stat Bonus

 WOOKIEES

·        Chewbacca - 3rd Class Citizen (20)- Strength +2 and Health Regeneration Bonus

 MON CALAMARI

·        Ackbar - 3rd Class Citizen (45)- Innate Engineering Repair Ability

 TWI’LEK

·        Oola - 2nd Class Citizen (60) - Stamina Regeneration Bonus

 RODIAN

·        Greedo - 3rd Class Citizen (40) - Innate Greater Field of View

 BOTHAN

·        Borsk - 3rd Class Citizen (35) - If a Spy, does not have to be “Introduced”

 TRANDOSHAN

·        Bossk - 3rd Class Citizen (25) - Strength +1, Innate Armor =1, & Health Regen Bonus

 GRAN

·        Ree-Yees - 3rd Class Citizen (30) - Innate Greater Max View Distance

 The following Races cannot be members of the Imperial Faction:

·        Wookiee
·        Mon Calamari
·        Rodian
·        Trandoshan
·        Gran

 The following Races cannot be members of the Rebel Faction (and thus also cannot become Jedi):

·        Rodian
·        Trandoshan
·        Gran

 *NOTE - Other then the Prestige system, race benefits are not incredibly beneficial.  They are there to help balance out the system from an “on paper” perspective to head off complaints of imbalance (when there are none).  Yes, to a degree, people will feel like their race of choice is being penalized in some form or another.  Customer Relation Devs should remain cool and reinforce that we are attempting to keep the Star Wars feel of a mostly human population (from the prospective of the GCW).  However, they should tell them that they should pick the race that they like and/or believe would be the most fun to play, regardless of any penalties.  The same should apply to their choice of professions.

[CaptBewil]

EXPERIENCE

            There are no experience points (XP) or levels in this setup.  This idea is moving away from that style of game play which only serves to promote “grinding”.   Player Characters instead advance through the age of their character and through ranks in factions.  Once Player Characters “Grind” their way to the top level in the traditional play style, there isn’t anything left for them (no “end game”).  In this play style the game is centered more on community and relationships then it is in becoming the most “uber leet” player.  This idea of “community play” comes from the relationships seen in Star Craft, Battlefield 1942, and other similar clans where there is an even playing field and a person’s “fame” comes from their own personal skill and what they contribute to their clan.  This is distinctively different from traditional mmo systems where it comes down to who can get to the highest level first and/or manipulate the best skill template.  This creates a huge void between veteran players and new players that will never stand a chance to challenge them.  In this system, even a new player can potentially become famous overnight by putting a veteran player in his/her place.  But don’t worry, even veteran players receive a bonus for their investment & loyalty to the game without creating the huge gaps that exists in today’s mmo’s.

 PROFESSIONS

            Like experience, this system also does away with skills and skill trees, etc.  Instead, each profession gives a player character bonuses to be more effective in the profession they have chosen.  Everyone enters the world as a Civilian (with no profession).  You can acquire a profession by speaking with the appropriate Profession Trainer who will make you perform a quest series that will teach you how to hone your skills.  You must complete this series each time you attempt to acquire the profession.  Primarily, this is to prevent players from dropping and reacquiring professions out of convenience.  This is similar to a “Timer” system that some game styles utilize.  However, in this way, the time it takes to reacquire the profession will depend largely on the Player and not a set timer.  Yes, they will still complain, but if Devs take the time to explain the mechanics and insist that they favored that over a timer system, players will tend to understand and go along with it (even if they don’t like it).  They must know that it is out of fairness that the system is designed that way.  You are not required to be in a profession to perform actions associated with the profession.

Every Player is capable of performing any action associated with any one profession without explicitly training in that Profession.  However, training in a specific profession makes a Player Character more proficient and likely to succeed in a task if he or she is properly trained in it.  Again, this is representative of a real world simulated situation.

 The following two rules also apply:

1.      Everyone can acquire up to two Professions.
2.      Faction Alignment is counted as a Profession.

 Since faction allow advancement and other benefits, it is only fair for it to be designed in this way.  There are a couple instances where these rules are circumvented, but the reasons for this were necessary and do not interfere with balance.

          SPY

·        Spies have a Strength Modifier of -1 but their Strength cannot fall below 0.
·        A spy can “pose” as any member of a faction without actually joining said faction.
o       To gain “credentials” for any faction, the spy must first be “introduced” to a prospective faction recruiter by a Player Character of that faction.
§         The Factional Player must be within x distance of the recruiter when the spy attempt to ‘gain credentials’.
§         ‘Gain Credentials’ has a 10% chance to fail for each player character of that faction within x distance of the recruiter up to 55%.
·        10% for the first player and then +10%-n for each additional player.
§         If ‘Gain Credentials’ fails, the spy receives an enemy flag from that faction.
o       Spies may rise in rank like any other player member of that faction provided that they fulfill the appropriate profession requirements.
·        COMBO PROFESSIONS
o       Spy + Commando = Assassin
o       Spy + Smuggler = Information Broker
o       Spy + Leader = Infiltrator

 * Spies should exercise extreme caution when attempting to ‘gain credentials’.  Nearby faction members may decide to place a bounty on the head of a would-be infiltrator if caught.

 SMUGGLER

·        A smuggler can conceal contraband and slice various types of terminals.
o       Smugglers may develop ‘contacts’ (such as Player Information Brokers) that can provide them with fake manifest or ship registry transponder signals.
o       Smugglers receive an 80% reduction in the time required to temporarily change (‘mask’) a ships registry and electronic cargo manifest transponder signal.
o       Smuggler receive a +25% bonus to being ‘clean’ when their cargo is scanned for contraband.
·        COMBO PROFESSIONS
o       Smuggler + Commando = Gunslinger
o       Smuggler + Pilot = Runner
o       Smuggler + Spy = Information Broker

 * Smugglers should use extreme caution when purchasing information from any Player in regards to Manifests and Ship Registries.  You never know when they may sell you out.  Of course, that reduces their chances of repeat business. ::smuggler grin::

PILOT

·        Pilots are certified to fly any Ship or Combat Vehicle.
o       Operates Ship and Combat Vehicle maneuverability at 100% effectiveness.
·        COMBO PROFESSIONS
o       Pilot + Engineer = Flight Tech
o       Pilot + Smuggler = Runner
o       Pilot + Bounty Hunter = Tracker

 * Non-Pilots can not own their own ship.  Non-Pilots operate Ship and Combat Vehicle maneuverability at 80% effectiveness.

 DOCTOR

·        Doctors have a Strength Modifier of -1 but their Strength cannot fall below 0.
·        Doctors heal wounds and help return players to their otherwise normal self.
o       Doctors may resuscitate those that have not been dead longer then 10 minutes.
§         Doctors are limited to carrying no more then 5 resuscitation kits at a time.
o       Doctors must be very close to a Character to heal their wounds.
§         Self-Recharging medical kits are used.
§         The heal rate is cumulative.
o       Doctors provide a cumulative +5% decrease to the time required to research “Medical Breakthroughs”.
·        COMBO PROFESSIONS
o       Doctor + Commando = Combat Surgeon
o       Doctor + Engineer = Bioengineer
o       Doctor + Bounty Hunter = Mad Scientist
* As a support role profession, resuscitation and medical kits require certification which can only be obtained by adopting Doctor as a profession.

LEADER

·        Leaders provide additional strength and increases confidence to their subordinates.
o       While at a base or ship Command Room, Leaders provide a +1 Strength modifier for all Commando Characters of the same faction present at the same base or ship (non-cumulative).
o       While not at a base or ship Command Room, Leaders provide a +1 Strength modifier for all Commando Characters of the same faction that are within 10m of the leader (non-cumulative).
·        COMBO PROFESSIONS
o       Leader + Spy = Infiltrator
o       Leader + Commando = Squad Leader
o       Leader + Faction = Officer

 * Leaders play an important role in factions as they are they primary Strategist and mission givers.  Leaders should be careful when entering combat as they may quickly become a target to eliminate their modifier to their Commando ranks.  If you want to join the officer ranks of a faction, then choosing Leader as a profession is the right choice.

 ENGINEER

·        Engineers have a Strength Modifier of -1 but their Strength cannot fall below 0.
·        Engineers build, repair, research, & dismantle.
o       Engineers may build prototypes, terraform, & place structures.
o       Engineers may repair any equipment, weapon, component, ship, structure, or vehicle at a corresponding rate.
§         The repair rate is cumulative.
§         Self-Recharging kit required.
o       Engineers may dismantle any equipment, weapon, component, ship, structure, or vehicle at a corresponding rate.
§         The dismantle rate is cumulative.
§         Self-Recharging kit required (same as repair kit).
o       Engineers provide a cumulative +5% decrease to the time required to research “Engineering Breakthroughs”.
·        COMBO PROFESSIONS
o       Engineer + Spy = Saboteur
o       Engineer + Doctor = Bioengineer
o       Engineer + Commando = Field Engineer

 * As a support role profession, repair kits require certification which can only be obtained by adopting Engineer as a profession.

 COMMANDO

·        Commandos have a Strength Modifier of +1.
·        Commandos are the backbone of any faction and are highly proficient with weapons.
·        COMBO PROFESSIONS
o       Commando + Spy = Assassin
o       Commando + Smuggler = Gunslinger
o       Commando + Faction = ‘Elite’ Soldier

 * Commando’s do not receive the -1 Strength Modifier other character receive when wearing armor.  Commando military training gives them a strong edge in combat situations.  If you plan to join the enlisted ranks of a faction, then choosing Commando as a profession is the right choice.

 ENTERTAINER

·        Entertainers have a Strength Modifier of -1 but their strength cannot fall below 0.
·        Entertainers play Music or Dance to engage the mind of other players on a personal level.
o       Entertainers learn their choice of a new Song or Dance once every three months by returning to their mentor (trainer).
o       All Characters within 10m of a performing entertainer has their total defense value reduced by -1.  However, they receive a slight Stamina rate increase.
·        COMBO PROFESSIONS
o       Entertainer + Spy = Undercover Agent
o       Entertainer + Faction = Contract Artist
o       Entertainer + Commando = Morale Officer

 * Entertainers are a social profession.  The wealthy will often sport one or more entertainers as a sign of their wealth and class.

 BOUNTY HUNTER

·        Bounty Hunters have a Strength Modifier of +1.
·        Bounty Hunters are the field experienced crime controllers of the galaxy.
o       Bounty Hunters may accept contracts to capture and/or transport OR kill ‘Marks’.
o       Bounty Hunters may use Seeker and Probe Droids to locate ‘Marks’.
·        COMBO PROFESSIONS
o       Bounty Hunter + Pilot = Tracker
o       Bounty Hunter + Commando = Terminator

 ·        Bounty Hunters must be registered with the Bounty Hunter Guild to gain access to Bounty files.  Bounty Hunters help to keep crime low while earning a substantial living.  However, Bounty Hunters are highly competitive and it’s not uncommon for multiple Bounty Hunters to fight over the same ‘Mark’.

 JEDI

·        Jedi are at the highest level of force awareness and must unlearn what they have learned.
·        Force-Sensitive Adapts receives pilot training.
·        Force Awareness is based on the Agility value of a player.
o       0 = No Awareness
o       1 = Faint Awareness
o       2 = Obvious Awareness
o       3 = Force-Attuned
o       4 = Force-Sensitive
o       5 = Force-Sensitive Adapt
o       6 = Jedi
o       7 = Jedi Master
·        To progress in agility past Agility 4, a Player Character must make a conscious choice to pursue the Jedi Profession by giving up their other two professions.
·        Agility 3 & 4 provide no Jedi abilities other then an increase to their “Luck” value (which only helps in mini-games such as gambling tables).
·        Force-Sensitive Adapts must complete specific quests to advance to Jedi.
o       There are five quests to be completed and upon completion, grant the following rank:
1.      Jedi Initiate
2.      Jedi Learner
3.      Jedi Apprentice
4.      Jedi Padawan
5.      Jedi Knight
·        Jedi must advance two Player Characters through the Jedi Tests to the rank of Jedi Knight.
·        Jedi may “fall” to the Dark Side by attacking and slaying another Jedi Guardian (Knight/Master) of the same rank or higher.
o       A Jedi that “Falls” before becoming a Master may become a Master by slaying 2 additional Jedi Masters (must be different Player Characters).
·        Jedi Guardians may not join the Imperial faction and Dark Jedi may not join the Rebel faction.
·        Any Jedi that performs a Jedi move or ignites their lightsaber within 30m of a 2nd class NPC will receive a permanent (reissuing) Jedi Bounty.
o       Jedi Bounties can only be removed by retiring from the Jedi profession.
§         Jedi may “retire” at any time.
·        Jedi who retire return to Agility = 4.
·        Retirement prevents a Jedi Bounty from being reissued.
·        A retired Jedi may become a Jedi again but must re-complete the ‘Trials’.

[CaptBewil]

FACTIONS

            Factions serve as an additional profession in the game system.  It also serves to supplement the guild system used in most MMO’s.  The guild system has been abandoned for several reasons, some of which will be covered later on in this text.  One of the primary reasons is, however, that most guilds automatically align themselves with a particular faction.  So by combining theses ‘like fractioned’ guilds, you’ve eliminated a middle step in coding.  You also unify those guilds to make them more efficient.  It is noted that faction based professions in the past have been rejected in mmo’s because of their rigid system (especially those which are based around military systems).  There is also the idea that different players play-styles would not fit into a single faction which has been largely unified into a ‘guild-like’ substructure.  These issues have been addressed in the following system:

 Current factions are Rebel, Imperial, & Hutt (other neutral factions should be considered and added based on the need for economic longevity).
-Advancement
--The highest rank of any faction is held by a Live Event Dev until rank positions are filled throughout the faction.
--Promotions are given by superiors on a “Need-To-Fill” basis.
--Demotions are also given when needed.
--Non-Leaders Advance through Enlisted Ranks
--Leaders Advance through Officer Ranks.
--Pay-Grades (salary)
---Rank determines the weekly Salary a faction member receives which (like everything else) is deducted from the total funds of the faction.
-Faction Command Terminals
--Only Officers can access these terminals.
--The amount of access allowed is directly determined by the Rank of the Player Character.
--Unit Management
---Officers of an applicable rank can assign (reassign) members to unit forces.
----These forces can then be given applicable missions.
---Officers may grant applicable Salary Bonuses for completing special missions (or tours).
---An officer of a higher rank may change mission orders assigned by a lower ranking officer
-Purchase Requisition
--Any Officer may place a request for Purchase Requisition (PR) to acquire needed supplies, equipment, etc.  It is then sent to applicable superior officer who must approve it before it is sent off.
-Faction Units
--Faction units can be Army Regiments or Navy Fleets.
---Faction units act as spawn locations for those assigned to it.
---Faction units travel in Real-Time.
-Court-Marshal
--Player Characters may be Court-Marshaled for breaking Faction Rules of Conduct (which includes committing crimes).
--Player Characters go before the Faction Leader (or appointee) and their decision is final.
--Player Characters that are found Guilty are given the appropriate punishment which could mean demotion, expulsion, or both.
-Defecting
--Any Player Character may defect from their current faction by visiting their Faction Recruiter and selecting the appropriate option.
--Player Characters maintain their Rank.
--Player Character may join another faction at the same Rank they held with their previous Faction provided that there is an opening available.
---Requires the approval of a Superior Officer of that Faction.
 
*There are a lot of inner workings and game-play possibilities not discussed.  Factions will be able to adjust salaries to stretch budgets or grant bonuses to encourage good work.  Player Characters that have similar play-styles can request to be assigned to units with other players that play the same way.  Factions also have to worry about spies infiltrating their ranks.  The game style allows for real-world ways of discovering spies and getting rid of them.  The Real-Time movements of Faction Units facilitate Ambushes as well as opportunities for players to take some ‘leave’ time and explore their personal life-style (whether it’s a life-style of luxury, adventure, or an altogether alter ego).

 PARTY

            The part system replaces the traditional guild system.  It has been noted that in guilds, there are ‘click’ of roughly 6-8 players that commonly play together.  The others may associate, but the common problem in large guilds is that many players become inactive, play solo (even though they are in a guild), or play with their own ‘click’ of guilders.  So, in this game-system, players that frequently play together may form a ‘Party’ under the following rules:

A Party consists of a minimum of four players and a maximum of eight.
A Party acts as a Faction Unit would.  When players of a Party login, they login at the same location as the rest of the Party (the Party itself is a spawn point, but doesn’t facilitate cloning).
 
ECONOMICS

            There is a serious problem with the economics in MMO’s.  The problem exists in such that currency is generated by the system into the economy but is never effectively taken away.  Over time, this leads to inflation.  A weapon selling for 100 one day may be listed for 1000 the next month.  As inflation continues, casual players tend to get left in the dust and what meager amount of money they have continually diminishes in value (something which should never happen).  From a technical side, as the economy inflates and the cost of items increase, the calculations involved in making a transaction increases and the size of the returned values take up consistently larger memory allocations.  This isn’t healthy for a gaming server either.  To solve these problems requires a closed economic system utilizing the following rules:

 Fixed Economic System
Each faction is granted a specific amount of credits from the beginning of the game.
These credits are used for everything in the game from purchase requisition to paying salaries.
No form of credit generation is used.
 
* Please note that this adds an additional over-arching strategy to the game.  Not only can you join a faction and defeat other factions by eliminating their units, but ultimately it boils down to a premise similar to Monopoly where you eliminate an opposing faction’s financial ability to fight.

 FINAL REMARKS

            Unfortunately it is impossible to get absolutely every aspect and idea of the game design into a nifty little outline.  However, one of the most wonderful aspects of this design is that in many ways, it forces players to role play without really know that that’s what they are doing which only adds to the “feel” (and appeal) of the game.

Design by:  Alan Samuel

[eldaec]

As the saying goes, this thread delivers.

[pxib]

As the acronym goes: tl;dr

Give us the one-page pitch, then if we look excited you can start coughing the vomit out in manageable chunks. Go full-on projectile like this and folks just run.

[bhodi]

Nailing down specific aspects of gameplay and characters in a two page sell? Devoting more time to class descriptions than the online economy? You sir are a Visionary. You forgot to title it -- may I suggest The Vision -- for I feel that would be suitably epic. Geocities, indeed.

[CaptBewil]

That's actually not a bad title. ;)

[Strazos]

Oh for the love of god.....


/SKIP

[CaptBewil]

As the acronym goes: tl;dr

Give us the one-page pitch, then if we look excited you can start coughing the vomit out in manageable chunks. Go full-on projectile like this and folks just run.

If you're not interested in reading the whole thing (which isn't really that long since it's in Outline form), then you probably wouldn't have been interested in it after reading a 1 paragraph summary.  But, good advice none-the-less.  The basic gist (if you insist):

-Balanced Character system with the Illusion of Inbalance (inverse of most mmo's)
-No XP required.
-FPS Combat system.  <--that's a period in case you missed it.
--one key touch weapon change in mid-fight...like a normal FPS, with typical FPS HUD for simplicity.
-Engaging Player driven FIXED economy (zero to limited inflation in some markets).
-Prestige System
--Compliments Personal Character Development
--Helps restrict Jedi visibility in the Game World through natural means (player control)
--Attributing Social system aspect.
-Profession system optional (grants skill bonuses, but not required.  IE what you can do isn't restricted by your profession).
-Bounty Hunter system handles grievers, gankers, and complainers.
-Smuggler System helps to actually smuggle and smuggling has an impact on the economy and GCW.
--Also helps drive the Underworld economy.
-Intergrated military factions with paygrades and player controled RTS (Real Time Strategy).
-EVERY PLAYER gains in force the longer they play up until a certain point where they must make a conscious decision to follow the path of a Jedi.
--System naturally controled by bounty hunters and general Jedi haters.  
-Spies can do TRUE undercover work.
+Many unlisted possibilities that players will figure out as they play.

[DraconianOne]

1 Prestige Point is deducted for each word of profanity a player uses.

For some reason, this is the only thing I ended up focussing on. 

Your prestige system needs more work.  If there is content that is only accessible to first class citizens, why would anyone ever want to select a third class race?  The only reason to choose a Gran would be if you're a hardcore roleplayer.  Otherwise, with your outline, it would take a player 5 months to get to be first class. 

Also what is this first class "prestigious" content you speak of?

The other thing I don't like about the prestige class is the losing prestige for killing unarmed opponents.  Tarkin destroyed a whole planet which would definitely put him into a 3rd class category but I bet he could get into any prestigious place in the galaxy.  Stormtroopers kill unarmed Jawas and moisture farmers (and, it could be inferred, suspected Rebels or Rebel sympathisers).

It's not that I think your prestige system is poor, per se, but I don't think it adds a level of Star wars-iness (?)

I do like that you've excluded alien races from being Imperials.  I'd go a step further and exclude twi'leks too.  But I would remove species restriction from the Rebels.  Adding another race like Zabraks that are humanoid enough to join the Imps might also be an option. 

Your profession system is too limiting aswell.  Han Solo was a Smuggler, an Engineer, a Pilot and, ultimately, factioned too.  How does your system account for that?

Bounty Hunter system handles grievers, gankers, and complainers.

Who watches the watchmen?  Plus, earlier you said that "Bounty Hunters are the field experienced crime controllers of the galaxy."  Surely, in an Imperial ruled Galaxy, all Rebels are considered criminals and traitors.  Plus how does this go hand in hand with the fact that Jabba the Hutt, a crime boss, had lots of BHs in his entourage? 

Dammit, I'm a noob here too - maybe I should expound on my "idea" of a good SW MMO as well!

[CaptBewil]

For some reason, this is the only thing I ended up focussing on. 

Almost everyone I've showed it to has pointed that one out...as I expected.

The idea is that the internal design of the game will influence role play and this is one of the ways it does it.  You wouldn't expect a first class citizen to do a lot of swearing.  Where as, you'd expect every other word from a 3rd class citizen to be a swear.[/quote]

Your prestige system needs more work.  If there is content that is only accessible to first class citizens, why would anyone ever want to select a third class race?  The only reason to choose a Gran would be if you're a hardcore roleplayer.  Otherwise, with your outline, it would take a player 5 months to get to be first class. 

There's advanatages and disadvantages to each class level.  Keep in mind that in this game, you can pull a weapon on anyone at any time.  A first class citizen would probably never be allowed into Jabba's Palace, because who's gonna trust one of those panzy ass prep boys anyhow, right?  Also, with Jedi, it's a lot easier to stay hidden in the underworld then in the more prestigeous areas.

Also what is this first class "prestigious" content you speak of?

In a nut shell, how you see the universe.  Will you see it as a clean formal place or an ugly smelly place?  It doesn't mean you can't acces those areas at all...it might just take a little more work and, do I dare to say, cunningness?  Again, it has largely role play value and little game play value in most cases, it's not something to stress over.

The other thing I don't like about the prestige class is the losing prestige for killing unarmed opponents.  Tarkin destroyed a whole planet which would definitely put him into a 3rd class category but I bet he could get into any prestigious place in the galaxy.  Stormtroopers kill unarmed Jawas and moisture farmers (and, it could be inferred, suspected Rebels or Rebel sympathisers).

That's an excellent point.  There needs to be bonuses for officers per month and fraction of points taken away.

It's not that I think your prestige system is poor, per se, but I don't think it adds a level of Star wars-iness (?)

It needs revisiting, I'll agree there.  Largely, it was a way of limiting Jedi visibility to the rest of the players in the game for one.  For two, I wanted a way for socializers, such as entertainers, to have areas of the universe where they were less likely to get grieved.

I do like that you've excluded alien races from being Imperials.  I'd go a step further and exclude twi'leks too.  But I would remove species restriction from the Rebels.  Adding another race like Zabraks that are humanoid enough to join the Imps might also be an option. 

Your profession system is too limiting aswell.  Han Solo was a Smuggler, an Engineer, a Pilot and, ultimately, factioned too.  How does your system account for that?

Every Player is capable of performing any action associated with any one profession without explicitly training in that Profession.

Bounty Hunter system handles grievers, gankers, and complainers.

Who watches the watchmen?  Plus, earlier you said that "Bounty Hunters are the field experienced crime controllers of the galaxy."  Surely, in an Imperial ruled Galaxy, all Rebels are considered criminals and traitors.  Plus how does this go hand in hand with the fact that Jabba the Hutt, a crime boss, had lots of BHs in his entourage? 

The other Bounty Hunters.  The bounty hunters will MAINLY handle non-faction aligned players OR faction players in civilian clothes.  All Factions (rebels, Imps, Hutt) will be able to put bounties on players of the other faction.  All they need is a name.  BTW, surviving a Bounty Hunter attack will reveal the name of the person who placed the Bounty on you... :)

Hope that helped.  Thank you for your input!

[CmdrSlack]

The problem with a prestige system is that players will either a) consider it a major cockblock to their chosen playstyle, etc. or b) find a way to game it for max benefit.

ETA -- Also, the swearing thing is a bit silly, for lack of a better descriptor.  I get the overall point, but losing points for your speech just seems to be too much like Demolition Man and not enough like fun.

[CaptBewil]

I agree and it may be something that ultamately gets taken out.  I'm still toying with it.  However, in saying that, I'm also playing with the idea of Prestige Sponsorship.  This would be where someone who is already First Class can sponsor someone who isn't and they receive like a 5-10 bonus per month to help them get up to First Class faster.  This would still not have much effect on the Jedi whom will still want to stay in mostly underworld areas.  Keep in mind also that this primarily only effects a handful of specific places within only a handful of cities and other places in the whole galaxy...

This is, after all, why I said to "humor" me on the Prestige system.  Most people will enjoy the underworld environments more, I think because that's mostly what you saw in Star Wars.  But, your right, I might take it out for players and just leave it in there for NPCs, which is really the primary trigger for Jedi visibility anyhow at this point...

Good feedback.  Keep it coming!

[Alkiera]

cunningness?

Did anyone else have to read that twice?

The profession system is kinda interesting... I'm curious about skill advancement; is it like WHFRP, where you need a profession to advance the skills in it, but afterward can change profession and keep the skills you raised?  Or is it just a bonus/flag especially for support classes who need the profession to use their skills?

--
Alkiera

[CaptBewil]

cunningness?

Did anyone else have to read that twice?

The profession system is kinda interesting... I'm curious about skill advancement; is it like WHFRP, where you need a profession to advance the skills in it, but afterward can change profession and keep the skills you raised?  Or is it just a bonus/flag especially for support classes who need the profession to use their skills?

--
Alkiera

It's a word, I swear! ;)

No XP.  No Skill Advancement.  Bonuses are only awarded by adopting the appropriate profession.  The Support classes, such as Engineer and Doctor, only require the profession for using repair kits and resuscitation kits AND for contributing to "Researching Breakthroughs".  Repair kits have specialized tools that allow you to repair faster (it's an All-In-One tool).  Otherwise, you have to switch between the correct tools to repair, create, and destroy stuff.  As for Doctors, the resuscitation kits are a "I-Click-On-You-And-You-Come-Back-To-Life" kit.  Anyone will be able to "Attempt" CPR on a fallen friend.  Otherwise, you don't need a "Profession" to pretty much do anything in the game.  You can even wield a lightsaber (if you find one) without being a Jedi...it just might not be of much use to you (no "Force Block" skill) as anything else but a huge cutting knife (which could actually come in handy). 

I'm essentially removeing the "Profession X Required to do thing Y" aspect from the game.  So if you want to be Han Solo and fly a ship, slip cargo past a blockade, fight for the alliance, fix your ships, and stand toe-to-toe with a Bounty Hunter, you can!  The other important thing is, no more logging in for the first time and being surrounded by lvl 90 players that could kick your ass in just a couple of hits.  Now you can sign up for the game and instantly be capable of standing at least a fighting chance against veteran players.  Veteran players are rewarded with modifiers to their strength and agility skills (which help in accuracy and dodging).  It is also important to note that it would take someon exactly 1 year of committed play to be able to even think of becoming a Jedi (and that's if they commit every modifier bonus to agility), though they might find the trials very difficult to complete at even that point (which, they are not meant to be easy, anyhow...after all, the game isn't about Jedi's and only those with the appropriate Real-Life skills in using a mouse and keyboard will be able to make it to Knighthood, not that a player has to make it to Knighthood to reap the benifits of the lower Jedi "basic" force powers).

[WindupAtheist]

What? Jango Fett held his own against Obi Wan because baby Boba was firing at Obi-Wan with Slave One's cannons.

Oh please.  Boba fired those guns exactly once, early in the fight, scoring a near miss that sent Obi-Wan flying a few feet but otherwise did no damage at all.

Highly equipped bounty hunter plus spaceship cannot defeat Jedi.  Highly equipped bounty hunter fires a fucking missile at Jedi without killing him.  (In Lego Star Wars, you get to force push the missiles back at Jango Fett because, you know, you're a Jedi and can do that)

The missile did manage to disarm Obi, who certainly didn't seem capable of reflecting it, regardless of what Lego has to say on the matter.  After that he was reduced to futilely trying to kung-fu Jango to death through his armor, while being towed around by that cable, decked at least once during the fisticuffs, dropped over a cliff, and so forth.

Eventually, highly equipped bounty hunter gets wtfpwned by single Jedi in one stroke.

In a contrived situation that involved his jetpack being broken by a trampling rhino immediately beforehand.  Under normal circumstances (see the Obi fight) his reaction to a charging Jedi is to go "lol melee" and fly away, while continuing to shoot.

Examples?  The Jedi in the arena at the end of AOTC are ganked by hundreds of droids.  The Jedi who are purged by Order 66 in ROTS are shot in the back (i.e. ganked) by groups of clones.  I can't recall a single example of a Jedi being killed by a regular person, one on one, in any of the prequels.

Jedi vs uber bounty hunter = tough, bruising fight
Jedi vs gank squad of clones = swift, ignominous death for Jedi

Sounds pretty balanced to me.  If Obi-Wan bitchslapped Jango in two seconds, or if we saw a bunch of Jedi actually suriviving those ganks, then maybe you'd have an argument.

Melee with ranged saber throw, ranged force throw, ranged force choke, ranged force lightning...

All of which presumably cost mana (or whatever) in our game, and preserve balance by keeping them from being effortlessly kited to death in every PVP battle.

root/snare = ability to bring down a walkway/column on your enemies.

No MMO is going to let you pull walkways down on people anyway.

They're also melee with close to 100% ranged mitigation.  (IIRC - didn't they actually have 100% ranged mitigation in SWG at one point?  I also seem to remember that got nerfed pretty damn quickly!)

Unless they're hit with a disarm effect, like say a missile that has a chance to make them drop their saber.  And while they can mitigate, they can't use their other tricks while doing it.  Go watch the first fight in Phantom Menace.  You see Obi-Wan using some force pushes, but only when he's not being shot at and can get a hand free for the gesture.  When those roller-droids pin them down with constant fire, the Jedi don't own them with telekinesis, they run away.

So now our PVP Jedi has to drop mitigation to use any of the tricks that keep him from being kited endlessly.  And if he doesn't do something, eventually his opponent might crack his mitigation with a disarm.  Balance.

We haven't even discussed the aspect of "Master" Jedi/Sith yet.  Sidious killed what? three or four "master" Jedi in a single AOE attack.

Mace was good at PVP, the other masters who died weren't.  Some of this shit has to be left up to player skill in the end.

The whole point of Jedi is that they're an alpha class.  Nerfing their abilities to make them balanced one on one with "regular" classes defeats the point of them being Jedi, of having attunement with the Force (or being infested with midifoozles depending on your preference).

Only if you think the purpose of Jedi characters is to enlarge the player's e-peen.

[eldaec]

The real problem with having Jedi in SWG was that their were no generic jedi in the OT setting, Luke, Vader, and Palpatine are special cases and irrelevant for the purposes of building a satisfying game experience. The only other SW source material available to draw comparisons from (the prequels) is set in a time where there were almost no skilled non-jedi combatants (I'm ignoring EU for obvious reasons).

This is a big part of why nobody can convicingly explain how balance should work for them.

It's like making a WWII mmog asking how Jedi should work.

[WindupAtheist]

Here's the bottom line in three easy steps:

1 - You have Jedi in the game because people are going to want them.

2 - You balance Jedi against other classes because to do otherwise is fucking stupid in terms of game design.

3 -  You tell DraconianOne to STFU when he starts rubbing himself and bitching that Jedi need to be more uber.  People like that may fag up your game's official forums complaining about how they should be able to pwn, but they'll be the last to ever quit playing.

[DraconianOne]

1 - You have Jedi in the game because people are going to want them.

If your Star Wars MMO is set in the GCW and if you've got balls, you won't.  A KOTOR/KOTNR setting is better for that.

2 - You balance Jedi against other classes because to do otherwise is fucking stupid in terms of game design.

If you're going to have them in the game then from a game design point of view, yes, absolutely.  I totally agree with you.  Which is a shame because you followed it with

3 -  You tell DraconianOne to STFU when he starts rubbing himself and bitching that Jedi need to be more uber.  People like that may fag up your game's official forums complaining about how they should be able to pwn, but they'll be the last to ever quit playing.

Did that make you feel big and clever?

Bite me!  You have absolutely no fucking idea!

[SnakeCharmer]

To noone in particular:

Star Wars' greatest BH got wtfpwnt by a blind man with a glorified stick.

Case closed.

You can't have a Star Wars game then tell people they can't be Jedi.  No way around it.

And you're trying to tell me I can't be a first class citizen because I curse?  Two words:  Fuck that.  Solo was less than a first class citizen 90 percent of the time.

All of the above is too goddamned touchy feely reward to do gooders crap.  It's so open ended most players would get lost on their way.  Players need direction, they need to feel an entitlement in a sense of role in what they do.  The best thing you can hope to do is clone SWG's old 32+ profession system and give an allotment of points to spend with better balancing techniques.

[eldaec]

You can't have a Star Wars game then tell people they can't be Jedi.  No way around it.

Unless you make XvT, the MMOG. See, I'm a fucking genius.


Someone should make XvT Planetside. Based on a Freespace2 mod.

Now you see, I just designed a better MMOG than any of you, and using just 10 words. That's how fucking awesome I am.

Here's a picture of Darth Vader telling some Japanese schoolgirls how splenda my design is...

[DraconianOne]

The real problem with having Jedi in SWG was that their were no generic jedi in the OT setting...

Yes. You've hit the nail on the head.  There were, in all likelihood, no Jedi.

The only other SW source material available to draw comparisons from (the prequels) is set in a time where there were almost no skilled non-jedi combatants (I'm ignoring EU for obvious reasons).

Ignoring the EU is slightly hazy here because the end of the Clone Wars cartoons segues straight into the beginning of the ROTS (explaining both how Grievous got that 60-a-day cough and how Anakin ended up with a scar down his face) but yeah, let's ignore them anyway.  

Here's the thing - if you take Jango Fett as being representative of the Bounty Hunter class then he didn't defeat Obi-Wan but did hold his own.  But Obi-Wan in AOTC was not a master jedi.  Both he and Anakin got pwned by Dooku with little effort and then Dooku got pwned to all extensive purposes by Yoda.  There's a definite hierarchy of Jedi abilities.  Bearing in mind his fight against Obi-Wan, what chance do you seriously think Jango Fett would have had against either Yoda or Dooku?  Or against Obi-Wan and Anakin together?  Mace Windu one-shot killed Jango in the arena after, as WUA rightly pointed out, he lost his jetpack.  He also lost his jetpack in the fight against Obi-Wan but still carried on fighting.  (An aside - you'd have thought Boba Fett would have learnt about this and invested in a better piece of kit - i.e. not one that would get set off by a stick wielding blindman!)

In terms of class design, I'd have to guess that we'd say that Jango Fett was a top level, Master Bounty Hunter with full Tier 5 raid bounty hunter armour or whatever bollocks.  Granted, he may have been a crap bounty hunter in SW terms but I reckon he was pretty shit hot and that was the point of him.  Obi-Wan, at best, was Jedi Knight level - not a Jedi Master.  So by my reckoning, in terms of game design, the level cap for a Jedi class would have to be equivalent of Jedi Knight to keep both game balance AND some adherence to Star Wars as we saw in the films.  

But we still have the problem of non BH/Jedi classes.  What about the clone soldiers who we can take to be master soldiers (being clones of the uber master BH Jango Fett because, you know, they were meant to inherit his combat aptitude and all) or commandoes or whatever the fuck you call the class?  Can one of these go toe to toe with a Jedi Knight?  I'll bet it's a case of "Computer says no!"  

You can't have a Star Wars game then tell people they can't be Jedi.  No way around it.

This, unfortunately, is always going to be the case.  And it's this type of pandering to the player design thinking which will end up getting us a Balrog as a mob in LOTRO.  

Unless you make XvT, the MMOG. See, I'm a fucking genius.

I'd fucking play that and no two ways about it.

Except there'd always be people whining about how they should be allowed to be a Jedi and have extra skills in space...  :-(

[SnakeCharmer]

There's nothing wrong with player Jedi.  Anyone that says different just likes to have their nuts smashed with a hammer.

However, said people that enjoy having said nuts smashed with said hammer that dislike player Jedi, but will 'allow' them want them on the premise they are difficult to play and even harder to get.  So, you know, basically it becomes an alpha profession, that is pretty much eventually required to have/be in order to compete.  The purist want powerful and hard and difficult, gamers want to be bad ass and l33t and ub3r, and never shall the two meet in a happy middle ground.

And we all know how that works out.








First class citizen....gimme a fuckin' break.  That's still chapping my ass...

[CaptBewil]

And you're trying to tell me I can't be a first class citizen because I curse?  Two words:  Fuck that.  Solo was less than a first class citizen 90 percent of the time.

Yes, that's exactly what I would tell you.  It's called GAME DESIGNED ROLE PLAY.  WHICH MEANS IT'S OPTIONAL!.  Damn straight Solo was less than a frist class citizen 90 percent of the time.  That's kind of the point...

BTW, first class is 80-100 points.   If you can't control your language usage to under 20 swear words a month OVER A VIDEO GAME in order to access some of the more prestigeous area (by access, I mean walk through the front door), then you've got some other serious issues you need to deal with...

All of the above is too goddamned touchy feely reward to do gooders crap.  It's so open ended most players would get lost on their way.  Players need direction, they need to feel an entitlement in a sense of role in what they do.  The best thing you can hope to do is clone SWG's old 32+ profession system and give an allotment of points to spend with better balancing techniques.

SWG old 32+ prof system DID NOT WORK.  That's why they HAD to replace it.  It was a new professions flavor every month.  Everytime they "BALANCED" the professions, they just shifted it to a new template.  It was impossible to balance that system.  It was TOO complex.  We knew that was going to be a problem back in Beta.  They were using the "Illusion" of a well thought profession system to cover-up for their "Make-a-game-in-less-then-a-year-because-when-we-bought-out-Verant-and-fired-all-of-the-employees-they-deleted-all-of-their-work-they-had-done-over-the-previous-two-years."  There was nothing "Special" about that sytem other then the variety of choices and professions you could be.  Hell, guess what?  They've brought that aspect back.  However, that's not the point of this discussion...

[SnakeCharmer]

And you're trying to tell me I can't be a first class citizen because I curse?  Two words:  Fuck that.  Solo was less than a first class citizen 90 percent of the time.

Yes, that's exactly what I would tell you.  It's called GAME DESIGNED ROLE PLAY.  WHICH MEANS IT'S OPTIONAL!.  Damn straight Solo was less than a frist class citizen 90 percent of the time.  That's kind of the point...

BTW, first class is 80-100 points.   If you can't control your language usage to under 20 swear words a month OVER A VIDEO GAME in order to access some of the more prestigeous area (by access, I mean walk through the front door), then you've got some other serious issues you need to deal with...

So, all RPers are goodie goodies that have exquisite manners and impeccable linguistic skills?

Um.  Yeah.

I got no problem with RPers.  I'm an RPer.  More often than not, I'm a bad guy.  I trick noobs into coming up in space in my YT and then blow them out the airlock.   I'll triple incap you just to make you squirm.  I'm the bounty hunter that watches you duel then deathblows you without breaking a sweat to collect your bounty.  I'm the smuggler that steals your stuff and sells it elsewhere for more money.  I'll shoot your engines out to disable your ship and leave you stranded like a deer that just got hit by a truck.

First class citizenshit (not a typo) is stupid.  450 degrees on broil clownshoes stupid.  It's kind of like...No, it's exactly like the dark fucking wood elves or whatever that ramble on about the moon and it's mystical properties.  99 percent of RPers are BAD at it.  Or just toss around sexual innuendos and thinly vieled jokes at the nearest twi'lek dancer, who just so happens to be a slave who hates the Empire because they killed her parents, and she's getting revenge one cybersession at a time to pay for her way through "jedi school for twi'lek dancers who wear Leia's slave outfit from Ep VI".

All of the above is too goddamned touchy feely reward to do gooders crap.  It's so open ended most players would get lost on their way.  Players need direction, they need to feel an entitlement in a sense of role in what they do.  The best thing you can hope to do is clone SWG's old 32+ profession system and give an allotment of points to spend with better balancing techniques.

SWG old 32+ prof system DID NOT WORK.

Wrong.

It *could* work, if 90 percent of the rest of the game wasn't so fucked beyond repair (see Kosters mythical working HAM system).

That's why they HAD to replace it.  It was a new professions flavor every month.  Everytime they "BALANCED" the professions, they just shifted it to a new template.

Welcome to every fucking MMO ever made.  EQ?  Never was balanced.  EQ2?  Not balanced.  WoW?  Not balanced.  AO?  Not balanced.  L2?  Not balanced.  LOTRO?  Guess what?

Not balanced.

I'm going to clue you in on a myth that nearly everyone knows:  Balance in MMO's is a MYTH.  It never has happened, it never will happened.

It was impossible to balance that system.  It was TOO complex.

We'll never know because all the underlying systems were broken (buffs, armor, weapons, HAM).  And you want to make it even more open ended?  What are you smoking, brotha?  People that get paid good money to figure this shit out - and haven't.  Noone has figured out how to make a balanced MMO.  Noone will.  Inherently, players are (collectively) smarter than the devs ever hope to be.  You can mask it as best as you can, but there_will_never_ever__ever__ever__ever__ever__ever__ever__ever__ever__ever__ever be a balanced MMO.  If it's FPS, the l33t kids trump the casuals/adults.  If it's traditional tab/autoaim/autofire combat, the skill is OUT of the players hands and in the devs. 

Min/maxers will ALWAYS beat the system. 

We knew that was going to be a problem back in Beta.  They were using the "Illusion" of a well thought profession system to cover-up for their "Make-a-game-in-less-then-a-year-because-when-we-bought-out-Verant-and-fired-all-of-the-employees-they-deleted-all-of-their-work-they-had-done-over-the-previous-two-years."  There was nothing "Special" about that sytem other then the variety of choices and professions you could be.  Hell, guess what?  They've brought that aspect back.  However, that's not the point of this discussion...

And your SW design document posted on a website that you've been working on for the last 10 years has all the answers? 

Not hardly.

[SnakeCharmer]

This, unfortunately, is always going to be the case.  And it's this type of pandering to the player design thinking which will end up getting us a Balrog as a mob in LOTRO. 

Guess who pays the majority of the bills?

Players that want to be Vader, Luke, Mace, or Kenobi.

Anything else narrows your market too much and makes it niche.

[WindupAtheist]

Both he and Anakin got pwned by Dooku with little effort and then Dooku got pwned to all extensive purposes by Yoda.

Dooku easily incapacitated Obi-Wan both times they met.  Anakin, on the other hand, ripped Dooku a new asshole in Episode 3.  And yet, when Anakin and Obi-Wan had their fight later in the same movie, who ended up as a smoldering torso?  Winning a swordfight does not mean one is automatically an order of magnitude more powerful than their opponent.

Hell, Darth Maul owned the shit out of Qui-Gon, a Jedi Master, then got chopped in half like a dumbass by a padawan.

Gamewise, I wouldn't even make "Jedi Master" a strict matter of level.  I'd put a minimum level requirement on it, sure, but actually getting it would be based on some sort of feat.  Maybe PVP, maybe some sort of quest, maybe something else, who knows?  Maybe any of those things, and let the player choose.

[CaptBewil]

And you're trying to tell me I can't be a first class citizen because I curse?  Two words:  Fuck that.  Solo was less than a first class citizen 90 percent of the time.

Yes, that's exactly what I would tell you.  It's called GAME DESIGNED ROLE PLAY.  WHICH MEANS IT'S OPTIONAL!.  Damn straight Solo was less than a frist class citizen 90 percent of the time.  That's kind of the point...

BTW, first class is 80-100 points.   If you can't control your language usage to under 20 swear words a month OVER A VIDEO GAME in order to access some of the more prestigeous area (by access, I mean walk through the front door), then you've got some other serious issues you need to deal with...

So, all RPers are goodie goodies that have exquisite manners and impeccable linguistic skills?

Um.  Yeah.

I got no problem with RPers.  I'm an RPer.  More often than not, I'm a bad guy.  I trick noobs into coming up in space in my YT and then blow them out the airlock.   I'll triple incap you just to make you squirm.  I'm the bounty hunter that watches you duel then deathblows you without breaking a sweat to collect your bounty.  I'm the smuggler that steals your stuff and sells it elsewhere for more money.  I'll shoot your engines out to disable your ship and leave you stranded like a deer that just got hit by a truck.

Did you not miss the big bold OPTIONAL part???  Again, I'll reiterate, THE PRESTIGE SYSTEM IS PRIMARILY FOR ROLE PLAYERS, it has no MAJOR significance in the game.  IF YOU ARE A SMUGGLER OR BOUNTY HUNTER, IT'S ADVANTAGEOUS TO BE A 2nd CLASS CITIZEN IF NOT A 3rd CLASS CITIZEN ANYHOW.

What you described above is EXACTLY how i'd expect a smuggler and bounty hunter to act.  You are looking to deeply into a shallow system and drawing FALSE conclusions which is EXACTLY what I warned against.

First class citizenshit (not a typo) is stupid.  450 degrees on broil clownshoes stupid.  It's kind of like...No, it's exactly like the dark fucking wood elves or whatever that ramble on about the moon and it's mystical properties.  99 percent of RPers are BAD at it.  Or just toss around sexual innuendos and thinly vieled jokes at the nearest twi'lek dancer, who just so happens to be a slave who hates the Empire because they killed her parents, and she's getting revenge one cybersession at a time to pay for her way through "jedi school for twi'lek dancers who wear Leia's slave outfit from Ep VI".

Again, you haven't seen the system in action and are drawing FALSE conclusions.

All of the above is too goddamned touchy feely reward to do gooders crap.  It's so open ended most players would get lost on their way.  Players need direction, they need to feel an entitlement in a sense of role in what they do.  The best thing you can hope to do is clone SWG's old 32+ profession system and give an allotment of points to spend with better balancing techniques.

SWG old 32+ prof system DID NOT WORK.

Wrong.

It *could* work, if 90 percent of the rest of the game wasn't so fucked beyond repair (see Kosters mythical working HAM system).

No, 32+ professions never would have work.  It was a balancing nightmare the way it was designed.  You can say I'm "Wrong" until you're blue in the face, but at the end of the day when the Beta testers voted the professions system to be the single greatest issue in the game...you have take a step back and consider for a moment...

That's why they HAD to replace it.  It was a new professions flavor every month.  Everytime they "BALANCED" the professions, they just shifted it to a new template.

Welcome to every fucking MMO ever made.  EQ?  Never was balanced.  EQ2?  Not balanced.  WoW?  Not balanced.  AO?  Not balanced.  L2?  Not balanced.  LOTRO?  Guess what?

Not balanced.

I'm going to clue you in on a myth that nearly everyone knows:  Balance in MMO's is a MYTH.  It never has happened, it never will happened.

Balancing a complex system of modifiers and skill trees?  Yes, it's a myth and cannot be done.  Review the design outline I posted above on this page (or follow the link for the same thing in a neater format).  It contains the following:

1.  Simplier design.
2.  System balanced by skill (based on FPS multiplayer games (ie. BF 1942, SW: Battlefront, etc)).
3.  Professions System optional for players.

It was impossible to balance that system.  It was TOO complex.

We'll never know because all the underlying systems were broken (buffs, armor, weapons, HAM).  And you want to make it even more open ended?  What are you smoking, brotha?  People that get paid good money to figure this shit out - and haven't.  Noone has figured out how to make a balanced MMO.  Noone will.  Inherently, players are (collectively) smarter than the devs ever hope to be.  You can mask it as best as you can, but there_will_never_ever__ever__ever__ever__ever__ever__ever__ever__ever__ever__ever be a balanced MMO.  If it's FPS, the l33t kids trump the casuals/adults.  If it's traditional tab/autoaim/autofire combat, the skill is OUT of the players hands and in the devs.

Min/maxers will ALWAYS beat the system. 

The problem is that there has been way too much though into "control".  Kinda like when Leia said "...the more you tighten your grip, the more system that will slip through your fingers..."  Which is why, in my design, I've put full control into the players hands.  Bounty Hunters deal with the grievers, whiners, etc (even if it's another Bounty Hunter).

We knew that was going to be a problem back in Beta.  They were using the "Illusion" of a well thought profession system to cover-up for their "Make-a-game-in-less-then-a-year-because-when-we-bought-out-Verant-and-fired-all-of-the-employees-they-deleted-all-of-their-work-they-had-done-over-the-previous-two-years."  There was nothing "Special" about that sytem other then the variety of choices and professions you could be.  Hell, guess what?  They've brought that aspect back.  However, that's not the point of this discussion...

And your SW design document posted on a website that you've been working on for the last 10 years has all the answers? 

Not hardly.

Eh, that website is more of a dump for random things.  Not that THAT has any relevance.  The Design document is fairly new and you would be far more effective if you asked questions instead of jumping to conclusions...

Regards

[tazelbain]

Did you not miss the big bold OPTIONAL part???  Again, I'll reiterate, THE PRESTIGE SYSTEM IS PRIMARILY FOR ROLE PLAYERS, it has no MAJOR significance in the game.  IF YOU ARE A SMUGGLER OR BOUNTY HUNTER, IT'S ADVANTAGEOUS TO BE A 2nd CLASS CITIZEN IF NOT A 3rd CLASS CITIZEN ANYHOW.

What you described above is EXACTLY how i'd expect a smuggler and bounty hunter to act.  You are looking to deeply into a shallow system and drawing FALSE conclusions which is EXACTLY what I warned against.

Le art.

[SnakeCharmer]

[Cyndre]

Here's a picture of Darth Vader telling some Japanese schoolgirls how splenda my design is...

This was the only interesting post in this entire thread.