f13.net

Is this what Lum's been up to?

Nein. It's Korean.

And believe me, I'd love for our project to go public. I just told my producer this. It gives me an excuse to travel and give interviews! I'm all about the junkets.

http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=8608.0

I have to go ahead and ask you...

I know Western culture also has elements of wasting time but it is nowhere near gigantic proportions that are seen in Korea. You actually succeed by accomplishing goals and increase your social standing by becoming more efficient. In Korea only time put in counts... and everyone puts A LOT of it in. 7am to 12pm work/school days are norm.

Western players look for different features than Koreans. For example, Western males like to play big rugged manly male characters. Koreans see those as the villains. The heros are skinny, usually wear glasses, and overcome the big brawny guys using brains and bravery.

Goddamn does Korean TV just suck.

For example, Western males like to play big rugged manly male characters. Koreans see those as the villains. The heros are skinny, usually wear glasses, and overcome the big brawny guys using brains and bravery. So popular avatars in Korean games are seen as effeminate and "sissy" by Westerners. Thus Koreans don't like avatar choices in Western games and vice versa.

Most of Asia disagrees with you for some reason. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_wave)

Hello Pot, Hello Kettle....

Dancing Anime girl?

Hello Pot, Hello Kettle....

Dancing Anime girl?

Your avatar is a big anime red thing getting his underarms shaved.

Trackmania doesn't count? I mean, ok, not a big lobby, but I think it counts. Also, "Acclaim" released that DDR shit in america.

My avatar is from an arcade game made in the early 90s.

Trackmania doesn't count? I mean, ok, not a big lobby, but I think it counts. Also, "Acclaim" released that DDR shit in america.

I had no problems with any of those avatars, Signe.  I don't know what their problem is.

Slight Necropostal:  Someone put up a few new videos the other day.  I though I would share. 

 Boppin' to the Beat.  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCQ0HQjalQ8&mode=related&search=)

 DANGER!  INCOMING HUGE NUMBER ALERT!  DUCK!  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0t5iZNMXH8)

 Oooh.  Aaah.  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpYGioghReo)

How can you not love this (potential) game?  It has everything!  Odd, sexy dancing.  Eye popping emotes.  I bet there will even be perching!  And the boys!  Are they not to die for??!!?  I could hug them to bits!  TO BITS!  And it doesn't matter which one I choose because they are all identical twins! 

Anyway, I will definitely give this game a go as soon as I can because I already love it.  It will be gloious, I tell you.  GLORIOUS!  (http://smiley.onegreatguy.net/jiggy.gif)

Interesting? Looked like another freaking hot-key driven Diku.

Slight Necropostal:  Someone put up a few new videos the other day.  I though I would share. 

 Boppin' to the Beat.  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCQ0HQjalQ8&mode=related&search=)

 DANGER!  INCOMING HUGE NUMBER ALERT!  DUCK!  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0t5iZNMXH8)

 Oooh.  Aaah.  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpYGioghReo)

How can you not love this (potential) game?  It has everything!  Odd, sexy dancing.  Eye popping emotes.  I bet there will even be perching!  And the boys!  Are they not to die for??!!?  I could hug them to bits!  TO BITS!  And it doesn't matter which one I choose because they are all identical twins! 

Anyway, I will definitely give this game a go as soon as I can because I already love it.  It will be gloious, I tell you.  GLORIOUS!  (http://smiley.onegreatguy.net/jiggy.gif)

I don't even know what that means except that in some way you've called me a zombie again!

I don't even know what that means except that in some way you've called me a zombie again!

Signe placed her hands on the keyboard. They slightly trembled, she was so excited. She quickly punched in the address to get to the NCSoft homepage. Yes, there it was - under new products. She moved her hand so fast to the mouse she misclicked a banner ad for Auto Assault. Signe became enraged, and threw three live poultry at the wall.

She landed back in her chair with a front flip, and properly clicked the link for Aion. Upon seeing the splash screen on the website, her blood raced. She imagined frantic clicking and hitting of the F1 key. She imagined setting up a shop where she sold hats that gave you bunny ears, or some seed that dropped off of pumpkins in a canyon somewhere. She started cackling furiously, eyes burning crimson red. Yes, they'd all pay, she thought. They'd pay in blood, as I trollop around with my Poring hat on.

As shining fangs emerged from her insidious grin, she leaped into the air and did a Chun Li spinning kick, knocking a man off of a motorcycle.

* PVP is possible in ALL areas, not just the abyss. Abyss is just in the middle though so it'll be most common. You bet we'll be rushing their zones and raping their lowbies as often as possible, as using flight you can get to the enemy's side. Griefing gogo.
* Air combat is confirmed to be very fast paced; it'll be WASD movement and mouse look only, much like a FPS. Normal movement can be click or WASD, whichever you like.
* There WILL be player housing, if not by release than implemented shortly after. Clan housing will also be available; and you will be able to pick where it's at too, and decorate it.
* Guild Emblems won't show up like L2; instead they show up on your guild's flags and can be used as decoration for armor and weapondry.
* If you "farm" a monster too long, it will evolve and become stronger. Antibot <3.
* The weapon enchant system is apparently very similar to the materia system of FF7. That should be... Totally amazing.
* Closed beta cap is 25, open beta is 50, final level cap is unknown.
* The dragon race won't have wings or tails, and the Asmodians (the devils) apparently don't grow wings either, but can still fly. It's unknown as to how right now, I would imagine they either get like semi-seethrough darkness wings or are propelled by magic. Both sides will have the same cooldown and flight length.
* Knowing when to fly, when to knock your opponent out of the sky and when to attack air-to-ground is apparently going to be important for PVP.
* Day and night change just like real life and there's an active weather system. Weather is confirmed to effect the environment AND... Skills? Should be interesting. I would imagine weather effects Flight, too, but that's just my speculation.
* Aion will NOT be focused on dungeons and will not require players to run instance dungeons or dungeons in general in order to succeed and get good equipment. (Of course not; you're supposed to chill in the Abyss.)
* There will be an auction house.
* The only time you can fight your own faction is in the arenas or duel mode.
* World will not be seemless, it will be zoned with 2-3 second loadings... This worries me about spawnkilling. Regardless, it's lineage-2 like.
* There are 4 basic classes (Warrior, Scout, Wizard, Cleric) that branch off into 8 classes (Knight, Fighter, Ranger, Assassin, Wizard, Elementalist, Priest, Enchanter.) You can think of these as Elven Knights, Rogues, Dark Wizards, etc. They further branch off into another two classes, for a total of 16 each. It's unknown if each side has different classes, though people are assuming they don't. Check the Classes Thread for more info on actual classes, and it'll probably be a lot more updated.
* One press release fron NCSoft clearly and energetically states that there will be no instances... But another one says that there will be. Good fucking job, NCSoft. We don't know if there will or won't be, as a result.
* There are plenty of floating cities that can only be reached by flying or taking a floating platform/airship. The Angel's "capitol" for example is suspended in the sky.
* Flight time is limited, think of it as a skill. You have a set amount of time you can fly and it has a cooldown. Items will be able to extend these but they don't believe that time will increase with levels. "Learning to use your flight time will be essential in PVP." For long, long distance there's a teleport system like L2. For short range, there's apparently an "auto-pilot" like thing for flight where you choose your destination and you'll go.
* Character customization is pretty damned nice. You can pick from some hairstyles (I would imagine about as many as GUild Wars allows, which is a good variety). You can then choose the color of the hair and skin. There's a sweet system that allows you to shape your face, and you'll also be able to alter eye color and choose your voice. Tattoos are present a well and are available for the face, and possibly other areas. They're also making a height/weight system that you can use to make your character anywhere from skinny to fat.
* Raising your PVP rank changes your wings and makes them sweeter looking, but as of right now they will not get more effective as they change. This fact is one of the reasons that I believe the Asmodians will get "dark energy wings", because uh... To leave that part out of them entirely is kind of rediculous. Then again, maybe you'll grow horns or some shit.
* There's no mounts in Aion. Why do you need them? You have wings. Shut up.
* Party size is 6 and apparently raids will probably be limited to 1 party. That means raiding should take a pretty long time and be a little more intense than "heal him. Spam hate." I'm worried that this will result in "prime parties" where certain classes won't get to raid because people will want an enchanter or a tank instead, but who knows.
* The game's looks are described as "dream-like" and if you haven't seen the movies they resemble Fable, with the exception of humans which look quite a bit more realistic. It's by far the best-looking MMO so far, absolutely no contest. The water effects are awesome and the sky is (as expected) the best looking I've seen in any game.
* Skills can be chained in a combo fashion, depending on the weapon you use. "Length of skill chains cannot be modified." What the fuck does that mean? Preset combos?
* There will be castles a-la L2 and guilds that get them will get special crap from NPCs (like books of giants from L2, lol) and will get tax money. Where have I heard this system before?
* You get PVP points for smoking people and they can be exchanged for high-end armors and weapons.
* The weapon and armor system is fucking neat. Not only can they be dyed like Guld Wars, but if you find a weapon that has a look you like and a weapon later that has higher stats, it's possible to change the new weapon's look to the one you like. This means it's going to be damned hard to judge opponent's strength, I bet, since you can't just be like "drac bow o shi-". It'll be cool to see how this pans out.
* NCSoft expects a flat $15 USD monthly fee, but it's possible it'll change. Release is expected April of 2008, possibly earlier.
* Aion runs on the CryENGINE1, which is the same engine FarCry ran on. It has better graphics and physics than the U3 engine and less system requirements. It's currently the only MMO being developed on CryE1.
* In the abyss, the 3rd faction (the neutral dragons) apparently gank both sides. This is obviously Anti-bot with an excuse, and it's an EXCELLENT idea.
* Aion is planned for 3000-5000 players per server, and there will be euro and asian servers. It's unconfirmed if euro players can get on U.S. servers.
* There's no character collision in Aion. That means no "MOVE FAGGOT WTF" blocking like in L2. In short, you can move through monsters and players.
* You can move while using skills, so combat is quite a bit similar to WoW.
* There's no info yet on if there will be Set Bonuses for armor, as they were in L2 but not Guild Wars. I would imagine there will be, though. There's also no info on if there will be a L2-esque grade system, or if it will be stats requirement a-la guild wars, or a simple direct level requirement.
* Stats are going to be static like L2 but there's a chance to custom mod them... Like L2.
* NEW Weapons currently have a set level requirement rather than a L2-like grade system, as shown in http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/2...1635258wq3.jpg They can also be soulbound like in WoW, where you can't drop or trade an item after you've identified/picked it up.

I want to play, too.  It's Korean, it's grindy and has PvP.  My sort of thing, really.  Now and then I even miss Lineage!  Maybe I'll play that for a few weeks or so.  I love it at Christmas time, too.  You get to kill Frosty the Snowmen!  (http://www.twowheelforum.com/images/smilies/snowmanmelt.gif)

Weather is confirmed to effect the environment AND... Skills? Should be interesting. I would imagine weather effects Flight, too, but that's just my speculation.

Because spamming power pots and taking 500 hours to reach max level is good times!  If you took the level grind and gear dependence out of L2 I actually enjoyed some of the other parts of the game.

Why would an L2 comparison make you WANT to play?

I figure, if you couldn't appreciate the ultimate euphoria that was early Lineage 2, then you're already probably in a state of complete despair, and I shouldn't go around making you feel even more miserable by reminding you of just why the game was great.

No, you are biased because you are a NCsoft snitch.  :grin:

Wednesday 19th December/... Massively Multiplayer Online RPG fans can look forward to a wealth of career opportunities in NCsoft’s forthcoming Aion: The Tower of Eternity next year, with gamers able to literally choose their destiny thanks to the game’s two-tiered character class system.

Characters begin their journey by choosing one of four base professions – Warrior, Scout, Mage and Priest. This initial tier of development impacts on everything from a character’s strength, to their combat prowess, to their magical abilities, ultimately shaping the players actions throughout the game. However, higher-level players can tailor their character further still, with each profession offering two advanced classes, bringing the total number of character types available in Aion: The Tower of Eternity up to eight.

While the initial choice of character class will largely depend on each player’s personal style, the ability to develop a character through the advanced class system ensures that players have all the tools they need to create a character that is unique to them.

The Warrior
Bold, brave and possessing immense physical prowess, Warriors excel in close-quarter combat. Strong performers in a wide range of situations, Warriors are relatively easy to master and when fully realised can unleash a spectacular range of physically devastating skills.

Depending on how players prefer to approach combat, Warriors can specialise as either Gladiators, who concentrate on dealing damage through brute force, or Templars, who combine fierce fighting with defensive chants and techniques.

The Scout
The Scout combines great agility with swift attacks. Scout players require a deft and accurate touch to get the most out of this tricky class, however the rewards are great and offer the greatest variety in play style of all the basic classes.

Scouts that specialise in ranged combat develop naturally into Rangers, an advanced class equally adept in the use of blades and traps. For those Scouts who prefer to stay hidden and strike from the shadows, the Assassin class is the perfect choice of advancement.

The Mage
Mages compensate their weakness in physical combat with the ability to launch devastatingly powerful magic attacks. In addition, Mages must learn to divert and evade the enemy so that they’re able to attack from the relative safety of range.

As Mages advance, so their mastery over the elements of water, air, earth and fire increase, their choice of advanced class determining how that mastery is manifest. Spiritmasters can summon and control elemental spirits, while Sorcerers channel elemental power into fearsome magical bolts and missiles.

The Priest
Spiritual warriors, Priests can use healing and self-protection spells to excel in melee combat, and launch powerful ranged magic attacks too. This makes them not only useful support characters in a party of adventurers, but also powerful combatants in their own right.

Priests that specialise in healing and protecting their allies naturally progress to the advanced class of Cleric, the ultimate support class. Alternatively, Priests can become Chanters, pious warriors that boast both healing and ability-boosting powers.

Players will be able to experience all eight character classes for themselves while exploring the incredible world of Atreia when Aion: The Tower of Eternity launches later next year.

* The weapon and armor system is fucking neat. Not only can they be dyed like Guld Wars, but if you find a weapon that has a look you like and a weapon later that has higher stats, it's possible to change the new weapon's look to the one you like. This means it's going to be damned hard to judge opponent's strength, I bet, since you can't just be like "drac bow o shi-". It'll be cool to see how this pans out.

* Air combat is confirmed to be very fast paced; it'll be WASD movement and mouse look only, much like a FPS. Normal movement can be click or WASD, whichever you like.

They mentioned something like 1-2 months (not /played) to reach max level and play time described as something between casual/hardcore.  Who knows what their definition is of that.

Incidentally, the level grind to cap is supposed to take approximately a month according to my sources*
Now whether that's a month /played or a month real time hasn't been elaborated upon but either way that's not exactly in the L2 league....


(*Random bloke posting in the SA Games forum.  :awesome_for_real:)

So, Mark.

Is it worth playing?

That's a good question. Unfortunately, I don't have an answer, just an opinion. I haven't played it yet either, so aforementioned opinion is probably worth shit.

If you guys have questions about the game mechanics, though, I can probably find answers for those.

Aerial Combat...

And..


GO!

Holy crap those classes look tired  :uhrr:

They didn't even bother to come up with original names or anything.....

Aerial Combat...

And..


GO!

lore is fodder in Korean MMO. Ok so why did the Dark Elves have a gigantic lightning rod in a shape of hand in their starting town for Lineage 2? I doubt 1% of the player population knows.

http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=lZPhozn3Bzo (http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=lZPhozn3Bzo)

I was fairly interested before, but now I'm completely sold!

Also unimpressive graphics.

Also unimpressive graphics.

Compared to what? Dunno, it looka more than ok on screenshots ( http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=211289 ) They even bother to do soft shadows if you want to look at it from technical viewpoint.

BLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!!!

*fuzzes*

That's a good question. Unfortunately, I don't have an answer, just an opinion. I haven't played it yet either, so aforementioned opinion is probably worth shit.

If you guys have questions about the game mechanics, though, I can probably find answers for those.

Yeah that bloom is rather overdone 

I actually like those graphics.

Personal taste anyway.  I think EQ2 graphics are awful, some people love em.

Wings: Original Recipe Or Extra Crispy?


I’m not really into MMOs (gasp!), though I always seem to wind up writing about them. After the first five or so, I developed the bitter attitude most post-Ultima Online elitist gamers have towards MMOs: “Psh. WoW clone.” But when I sat my skeptical self down for some hands-on time with NCsoft’s Aion: Tower of Eternity, I was surprised to find that I actually wanted to keep playing when it was time to pack up and go.

This MMORPG might look like a World of Warcraft copycat, but there’s more going on here than meets the glazed-over eye of a cynic. It’s got PvPvE which kicks your old school PvP/PvE in the butt, incredibly flexible character customization, and – instead of some lousy mount at level 20 – you get freaking wings at level 10.

“What the hell is PvPvE?” you ask. It’s exactly what it sounds like: you’re a player fighting a player fighting an environment. The crux of Aion lore is that the world has been split in two and there are three factions warring for control. The Eylos are the “light” guys (bright colors, sparkling costumes, angel wings) and the Asmodians are the “dark” guys (bruise-colored skin, glow-in-the-dark costumes, shaggy wings). These are the two factions you can choose from in the game and the third faction, the Balaur, is entirely AI-controlled. So while you’re Eylos fighting Asmodian, you’re also fighting the Balaur and so are the Asmodians.

The classes are the same for the Eylos and the Asmodians; you start out with your basic Mage, Priest, Scout, and Warrior. This means that there’s no learning curve if you want to change sides. Eventually, the classes branch off into two sub-sections that are either ranged or melee (Scout becomes Assassin or Ranger, etc).

When you hit level 10, the real game gets going. You go through the “Ascension” and gain godlike powers and wings with which to fly around like a badass. (However badass you are, though, mind your 60 second flight gauge or you’ll do a lot more falling than flying). After getting your wings, it’s off to the Abyss to experience PvPvE firsthand.

It was the wings that won me over – WoW doesn’t have anything quite like them, even if it does have battle zones that look like the Abyss what with the purple and the lighting and stuff. I was too busy flying around (plummeting to my death) to actually fight in the Abyss, but I did do a lot of fighting on the ground. As with all MMOs (don’t even pretend otherwise), the early levels are all about fetch quests and map exploration. I stabbed flowers, collected rat butts, and shanked grave robbers for a good twenty minutes before it dawned on me that while the combat system might look prettier than some, it’s the same damn select-attack-hot-key-spell-wait-for-cool-down-attack pattern I’ve seen since EverQuest II.

You know what they say – if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.

The other thing that stood out for me was the character customization. I’m used to dragging sliders back and forth and seeing barely any change in my character (unless it’s a boob slider – those changes are always visible); so I was shocked when I dragged the height slider down and my character actually got smaller. Then I bumped up her hips, legs and torso sliders and she actually got fatter instead of a bigger version of skinny! I picked a random face model and suddenly had the option to open up a face modification window; wherein I made her look like the bastard child of Katherine Hepburn and Tinkerbell if such a thing were possible. The customization is so detailed that other journalists were making David Bowies. A few of the customization features were MIA (most notably tattoos), but it looks like NCsoft was serious when they said that there was no way that any two avatars would ever look exactly alike.

Aion: Tower of Eternity is slated for release sometime in 2009. I could have hugged the production guy that declared the full game would be out – not a crappy skeletal version that requires half a dozen patches in the first month of the release – but then I remembered that I’m a cynic with no faith in release schedules and that they won’t give a more specific date than 2009, so I covered by hugging a nearby lamp.

There’s no official word on a US open beta anytime soon, but a closed beta is well underway in Korea (where the game is being developed), so maybe we won’t have to wait too long before we get our wings.

Why would someone let Kotaku play an MMORPG?

But I like Lineage 2!

I don't like to judge, but seek help. Now.

unsettling and addictive in it that keeps vibrating in your bowels like a subsonic bassline

The one thing killing Lineage 2 for good is the amount of times you have to repeat the same action in the same place for hours/days to progress. Mindnumbing, it's not just grind.. it's grindCORE. You have no idea. Take your longest grinding MMO you can think of, multiply it by 100, and you are close to what's the grind of L2.

Still, I am fascinated, love so many things of it and I enjoy a couple of weeks of L2 every 6 months. I hope Aion can do the same for me. Short, intense bursts of visual and sub-visual delight for a tenday every few months.

How can you be so trusting?  You live in Rome!   :ye_gods:

Cmon. It will. I would take bets but it would be stealing.

If that wasn't sarcasm, WoW allows click to move.

Though I might be wrong, I've wanted to play a korean f2p grinder because you could fly.

Flyff! GO FLYFF!

WoW is still doing its best to entertain me in the muhmorpug space, though I'm getting bored of it. I've been playing Sacred 2, while logging on one day a week to raid.

Unless you are on a full pvp server, MMORPG are all shitty grinders. It's up to you to choose colours and shapes. Not much else to do.

My shapes and colours for 2009 are Aion's.

What is the acceptable time to max level in a DIKU these days.  5 days played?  Originally wow was around 7-10.

No.

CRPG have been grindy since forever. What makes them interesting (?) is progression mixed with a plot and characters.
Max level in 1 day is irrilevant. What next? Different forms of grind.

Make it with meaningful plot and characters perfectly molded in the online world and we have ourselves a revolutionary mmo. But then the content would run out anyway and the game would be "over".

I really can't see any revoltion coming into PvE MMO, other than pure action figting style, a la God of War. Or if they finally find a way to have insane amounts of content, and a plot and meaningful characters perfectly molded with the online world.

What is the acceptable time to max level in a DIKU these days.  5 days played?  Originally wow was around 7-10.

Can't read all your stuff. What is grind and what is not was discussed around here so many times.

Grind isn't a fact, it's subjective. WoW was grindy to me. Wasn't for you, or some other millions. There are no universal conditions that once satisfied define "grind" for everyone other than "I'm bored, this is so grindy", which can occurr in any game after any amount of time. 5 minutes, 5days, 5 weeks, 5 months.

What I said is ALL Computer RPG (online or not) has REPETITIONS of bland actions at their core, over and over. Finding the balance is the egg of Columbus, but right now everyone out there is balancing repetition with itself. What I'd call a revolution would be to balance repetition (fighting) with something really juicy like masterful and meaningful (it's online!) storytelling. Which, for example, is what make me endure the repetition at the core of the Final Fantasy series (or any other C/J-RPG), which would be unbearable if it wasn't for plot, characters and they way they are presented.

There's a couple of questions in there. I prefer to consider the time between one new key ability and the next, or the pace at which one is advancing through a story arc with clearly defined events (like WotLK but unlike BC, for example). If it takes me 10 hours of play to learn one new ability, or make at least one critical character-changing choice, it's probably too long.

The "speed to cap" measure really only applies to those predisposed to grinding anyway. They enter a game assuming the levels are a tutorial to be endured until the real game begins. As such, "grind" is a perception based more on personal style than any fundamental game mechanic. If this grind can't eventually be reduced to some macro-able task that takes no longer than 24 hours played, it's probably too long.

tl;dr version: YMMV based on how you define fun.

Advancement IS an mmorpg

If "advancement IS an mmorpg", what's the point of your revolutionary max level in 1 day?

What is the acceptable time to max level in a DIKU these days.  5 days played?  Originally wow was around 7-10.

When was it that MMO's started designing "ends" in persistent worlds?

I like the definition of time to new key abilities.  Time to a New Toy. 

Currently yes mmorpg's are based on advancement.

If you mean it's impossible to make an MMO without game based achievement, I disagree. Old SWG and UO disprove that. You had a LOT of experience to be had as a virtual citizen after banging out your template.

If you meant that players always need to have something of some sort to strive towards, then I agree. But that's an axiom for ALL games :)

Indeed, I shall even counter with: it's impossible to make an MMO that's not about advancement. (Advancement used very loosely of course.)

Its very possible and you don't need to go back to tombstone games like UO and SWG, which simply replaces level grind with gold farming

You are not bright.

No. Current MMOs are based on character customization/optimization, wrapped within thin narrative to drive players through content in a linear fashion (if they choose to ride the rails). Customization is not pure linear advancement because your choices expand outward as much as they deepen.

I'm going to toss out a guess.

Advancement refers to levels and such, that sort of progression.
Optimization refers to getting a better pieces of equipment that's +5 stats.  Which is what WOW is all about.  The bulk of anyone's character development in WOW is optimization, not advancement since most people hit max level extremely fast in a content cycle (2 years).

Those are both advancement...

In a game where your equipment matters as much or more than your level, obtaining items is still advancement.  Once you've gotten the 'best' and are simply deciding whether your gear should be focused around this area or that other one, then you're optimizing.

Semantic argument at this point.  But gain levels with experience is a different form of game play than dungeon crawling to get a better belt.  Advancement vs. optimization is describing each form of play style, in my opinion anyway.

Semantic argument at this point.  But gain levels with experience is a different form of game play than dungeon crawling to get a better belt.  Advancement vs. optimization is describing each form of play style, in my opinion anyway.

Not really.

If you look at an item and think how it's a great upgrade over what you have now, it's advancement.  If you're debating between buying the Sword of Smiting or the Mace of Magicaliciousness, but neither is a pressing need, it's optimizing.  Sure there's a blurry line there when you're talking a fractional increase in power, but for the lifespan of almost any item-centric game getting new items are almost always an upgrade, and thus advancement.

For a solid example, the sword which does 2.1 dps compared to the one that does 80.5 dps and +50 Str, +40 Sta, +5 parry is a definate upgrade.  You may not notice it since you went from sword 2.2 dps -> 2.3 dps -> 2.3 dps +1 Str -> etc, but it's as much advancement as getting Fireball I, Fireball II, Fireball III, ... or going from level 1 to level 2.

I will not bite your semantics bait.

I was attempting to differentiate between end game character building and everything before character building.  Again, it's a word game.  You can also look at it as a level of permanence.  Character advancement, i.e. levels or new fireballs are permanent.  Gear acquisition isn't permanent.  You can remove it from your character.

How is character optimization any different than advancement? 

They're different because while you can customize at any level, advancing deeper into the levels allows you a greater degree of choice.

Like say, SWG's original skill system?

Advancement is only permanent because of the chosen system.  DIKU games could let you choose to swap out abilities if you wanted.  Some do.  See talent/power respecs.

The ability to drop all your equipment for newbie gear might be an option you can technically take, but realistically that upgrade in power is as solid as anything levels give you.

Good example. You can be effective in a narrow set of options right away and then be as effective across a wider set of options later into the BRs.

But any DIKU would serve as well. Higher levels give you more abilities (though you reach the cap probably well after you've run out of actual different skills), more options for gear, in the case of PvP/PvE games, different directions to advance so different types of customization. Rep grinds too.

Virtual worlds go much broader much earlier and offer much more substantially different ways to live there of course.

On that note, i am tired of seeing stats.... I want items to have utility. Like planetside.

It all depends on the kind of game you're playing, but stats allows for more variety of gear choice.  There is only so much utility you can have before you have balance issues.

So you just want FPS in a RPG world? 

Stats allow for needlessly complicated systems, and are a mask for lack of true utility. Show me one game that uses stats in some meaningful way, that creates some form of real effect in the game world, other than simply canceling out another, arbitrary stat (oh, and particle affects, lol).

The only one i have seen crop up into more games lately is knock backs.

Not...really( :awesome_for_real:) Also, what are those things you call classes? I am quite sure every surf in the middle ages was able to pick up and swing a sword, i bet he could put on armor too.

Stats allow for needlessly complicated systems, and are a mask for lack of true utility. Show me one game that uses stats in some meaningful way, that creates some form of real effect in the game world, other than simply canceling out another, arbitrary stat (oh, and particle affects, lol).

Some high quality gameplay movies

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2DqAkARHfg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83mlerN54zo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ee-0tDkCdA4

looks pretty but... it's like distilled essence of Korean diku game. And it apparently takes dozen hits at level.15 to kill a foozle that poses no challenge to the player whatsoever. Guess someone really wanted to make sure players will get to see these combat animations over. and over. and over. :uhrr:

But, I've already played and quit WoW.  Why would I do it again?

Seriously though, just for kicks I'd like to see what would happen if some kmmo manager took over a western development house and they actually got a game out the door.  Graphics and animations all seem nice and solid if not to my personal taste, but the design just doesn't seem to show anything new.

World of Aioncraft - we copied EVERYTHING from your favourite game except the mounts, but gave you flight form.

Just trying to understand if we are already in the phase where WoW invented MMORPGs and everything else is just a clone of it.

If we were looking at this from a historical perspective I'd say pre-2004 MMOs were laying down framework but WoW actually built the castle.

And castles is where architecture stopped evolving?

I dunno, that PVP video was pretty disheartening. Jerky frames, the toon is miles away, all you see is floating numbers...If this is NC Soft's attempt to break into a western market...

Actually Aion is PVP with PVE on top.  You have two halves of the world where some PVP can happen but all the good stuff is going on in the "Abyss" where you have stuff you want.  In the Abyss there are a lot of L2 PVP elements and some raid thing from what I remember.

The time you spent grinding your ass off will make you feel that pvp was slapped on top.

We shall see if they change the exp curve for NA release, but the grind is about half of what normal Korean games are.

Again: you are all underestimating this. You heard it here first.

You are always so full of hope! 

Just trying to understand if we are already in the phase where WoW invented MMORPGs and everything else is just a clone of it.

That would be amusing.

I havn't heard about the momentum thing.  That seems either really cool or terrible with lag.

It's only for flight movement, though, not on-ground player movement.

I've never heard of mounts, but then again, your characters has WINGS.

GDC 09 : Aion Presentation (http://www.gamereactor.no/grtv/?id=4305)

Pretty interesting.

Says the guy who was masturbating to Demon's Souls.

Drop the attitude. You don't trust anyone, period.

Jealous is rough, I know.

I see that you didn't deny it.  :oh_i_see:

I don't trust anyone who relies on "hope" for providing possible entertainment.

I prefer to call it "potential".  :grin:

NCSoft desperately needs this to come out ASAP. If they've actually retuned it, right now (RIGHT FUCKING NOW) is the time to be releasing an MMOG.

Bio of the perfect woman:
http://www.aiononline.com/us/community/development_team/meet_liv.html

Anyone else notice that in the promo. vid her boobs looked 3D?  Kind of a Blade&Soul bra look there I guess... 
anyways, her in-box must be flooded.

One thing NCSoft is good as is choosing quality community managers.  They did a great job in Tabula Rasa as well. (couple cuties over there also)

She looks like that one chick...from assistants creed. (lol)

Y'know, I swear Canada has all the best women.  I mean really, every time I see a profile like that on an attractive woman they're from Canada.  U.S. women just arent built like that.  :(
Maybe it's the cold... they cant go outside so they learn Klingon and design RPGs.

North Vancouver is full of way too many beautiful women to be exact. Many of the ones I met were either geeks or total hippies whose hobbies were smoking grass and listening to GD albums.