Aion - The Tower of Eternity

[Mrbloodworth]

What is the acceptable time to max level in a DIKU these days.  5 days played?  Originally wow was around 7-10.

When was it that MMO's started designing "ends" in persistent worlds?

I will not bite your semantics bait.

Yeah, but its tasty, And valid. Then again, i view "End game" as a flaw in the body of a game, or a symptom of the flaw.

[Signe]

There is not nearly enough drama surrounding this game!

[Lantyssa]

I was attempting to differentiate between end game character building and everything before character building.  Again, it's a word game.  You can also look at it as a level of permanence.  Character advancement, i.e. levels or new fireballs are permanent.  Gear acquisition isn't permanent.  You can remove it from your character.

Like say, SWG's original skill system?

Advancement is only permanent because of the chosen system.  DIKU games could let you choose to swap out abilities if you wanted.  Some do.  See talent/power respecs.

The ability to drop all your equipment for newbie gear might be an option you can technically take, but realistically that upgrade in power is as solid as anything levels give you.

[Venkman]

No. Current MMOs are based on character customization/optimization, wrapped within thin narrative to drive players through content in a linear fashion (if they choose to ride the rails). Customization is not pure linear advancement because your choices expand outward as much as they deepen.

How is character optimization any different than advancement? 

They're different because while you can customize at any level, advancing deeper into the levels allows you a greater degree of choice.

[Mrbloodworth]

No. Current MMOs are based on character customization/optimization, wrapped within thin narrative to drive players through content in a linear fashion (if they choose to ride the rails). Customization is not pure linear advancement because your choices expand outward as much as they deepen.

How is character optimization any different than advancement? 

They're different because while you can customize at any level, advancing deeper into the levels allows you a greater degree of choice.

See planetside.

[Venkman]

Good example. You can be effective in a narrow set of options right away and then be as effective across a wider set of options later into the BRs.

But any DIKU would serve as well. Higher levels give you more abilities (though you reach the cap probably well after you've run out of actual different skills), more options for gear, in the case of PvP/PvE games, different directions to advance so different types of customization. Rep grinds too.

Virtual worlds go much broader much earlier and offer much more substantially different ways to live there of course.

[Draegan]

I was attempting to differentiate between end game character building and everything before character building.  Again, it's a word game.  You can also look at it as a level of permanence.  Character advancement, i.e. levels or new fireballs are permanent.  Gear acquisition isn't permanent.  You can remove it from your character.

Like say, SWG's original skill system?

Advancement is only permanent because of the chosen system.  DIKU games could let you choose to swap out abilities if you wanted.  Some do.  See talent/power respecs.

The ability to drop all your equipment for newbie gear might be an option you can technically take, but realistically that upgrade in power is as solid as anything levels give you.

AION is a diku game. 

Also that upgrade is just like leveling sure, but it is different!  Hence different terms.

[Mrbloodworth]

Good example. You can be effective in a narrow set of options right away and then be as effective across a wider set of options later into the BRs.

But any DIKU would serve as well. Higher levels give you more abilities (though you reach the cap probably well after you've run out of actual different skills), more options for gear, in the case of PvP/PvE games, different directions to advance so different types of customization. Rep grinds too.

Virtual worlds go much broader much earlier and offer much more substantially different ways to live there of course.

On that note, i am tired of seeing stats.... I want items to have utility. Like planetside.

[Draegan]

Good example. You can be effective in a narrow set of options right away and then be as effective across a wider set of options later into the BRs.

But any DIKU would serve as well. Higher levels give you more abilities (though you reach the cap probably well after you've run out of actual different skills), more options for gear, in the case of PvP/PvE games, different directions to advance so different types of customization. Rep grinds too.

Virtual worlds go much broader much earlier and offer much more substantially different ways to live there of course.

On that note, i am tired of seeing stats.... I want items to have utility. Like planetside.

It all depends on the kind of game you're playing, but stats allows for more variety of gear choice.  There is only so much utility you can have before you have balance issues.

[Mrbloodworth]

Good example. You can be effective in a narrow set of options right away and then be as effective across a wider set of options later into the BRs.

But any DIKU would serve as well. Higher levels give you more abilities (though you reach the cap probably well after you've run out of actual different skills), more options for gear, in the case of PvP/PvE games, different directions to advance so different types of customization. Rep grinds too.

Virtual worlds go much broader much earlier and offer much more substantially different ways to live there of course.

On that note, i am tired of seeing stats.... I want items to have utility. Like planetside.

It all depends on the kind of game you're playing, but stats allows for more variety of gear choice.  There is only so much utility you can have before you have balance issues.

Stats allow for needlessly complicated systems, and are a mask for lack of true utility. Show me one game that uses stats in some meaningful way, that creates some form of real effect in the game world, other than simply canceling out another, arbitrary stat (oh, and particle affects, lol).

The only one i have seen crop up into more games lately is knock backs.

[Draegan]

So you just want FPS in a RPG world?  Better scope, better stability, better range?  Can you translate that across multiple classes keeping each class interesting and also offer enough upgrades and flavors to keep people happy throughout the game's update cycle?

[Mrbloodworth]

So you just want FPS in a RPG world? 

Not...really( ) Also, what are those things you call classes? I am quite sure every surf in the middle ages was able to pick up and swing a sword, i bet he could put on armor too.

What i am trying to say is, classes are some sort of symptom of stats. Or something. Planetside had no stats, however it had a ton of gear choices, as well as utility, as well as being a RPG, to some, more so than most, as you really played a role (with in the different levels of the community), and not a template labeled "Hero".

(If you are thinking i am talking, while only having about 60% of what i am trying to say ordered in may head, you would be right. Its on the tip of my mind though...It requires a shift in RPG design thinking...i think.  )

[Venkman]

Stats allow for needlessly complicated systems, and are a mask for lack of true utility. Show me one game that uses stats in some meaningful way, that creates some form of real effect in the game world, other than simply canceling out another, arbitrary stat (oh, and particle affects, lol).

The only one i have seen crop up into more games lately is knock backs.

1977 called. It wants the last 32 years back  

In all seriousness, a lot of us are waiting for that mythical alignment between FPS mechanics, spell-casting, and a strong enough consumer demand.

Unfortunately, while the technology has been there, a lot of people don't think the market has been.

[Merusk]

So you just want FPS in a RPG world? 

Not...really( ) Also, what are those things you call classes? I am quite sure every surf in the middle ages was able to pick up and swing a sword, i bet he could put on armor too.

Yeah.. try it some time with a replica and you'll discover that it's not easy.  Do it against someone who even half ass trains for SCA fights and you'll get your ass kicked.  Against someone who was training as their livelihood and whose life was on the line? No thanks!  For a modern equivalent, there's a reason insurgents use IEDs and ambushes instead of taking on a unit head-on and it's not just the equipment that unit carries.

Classes are meant to illustrate specialization in a skill.   You can do this with classes and have an easier time balancing the game world or you can attempt this with skills and say 'fuck it' to the myriad of min/ maxing build-of-the-months you'll create.

I'll agree that stats - as they're used now - are just a way of furthering the gear divide.  They mean things in almost all the MMOs nowadays, but since it's all about optimization and balance around the endgame you're still limited in the usefulness of pumping other stats.  In wow for example, there's a difference between a melee who has 100 less str or sta than another guy even with the same weapon but you can't be "A dex warrior" and not be a gimp.

[tmp]

Stats allow for needlessly complicated systems, and are a mask for lack of true utility. Show me one game that uses stats in some meaningful way, that creates some form of real effect in the game world, other than simply canceling out another, arbitrary stat (oh, and particle affects, lol).

Considering the stats are basically used as way to allow the player customize the speed, damage output and ability to take the damage of their character i don't really get this complaint. Especially when you bring Planetside as supposed alternative to it -- the gear in Planetside has stats too, they're listed right on their website when you browse the gear database there. The only difference is in one game _all_ stats are in the gear, and in other _some_ are part of the character and persist no matter the gear choice.

[UnSub]

Directly customisable stats are generally permanent and can often be confusing in terms of "what is best?". Also, it generally leads to dump stats i.e. a stat or group of stats that is the least important to the character's abilities, so they are never or only minimally improved.

Indirectly customisable stats - stats through gear - is a better system imo since it is generally more flexible and adaptive: you can change it easily when you want to. Also, while it can mean that dump stats still exist, the devs have greater flexibility in developing items that provide a wide range of stat bonuses so that even the least important stat can still get some love.

[tmp]

Some high quality gameplay movies

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2DqAkARHfg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83mlerN54zo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ee-0tDkCdA4

looks pretty but... it's like distilled essence of Korean diku game. And it apparently takes dozen hits at level.15 to kill a foozle that poses no challenge to the player whatsoever. Guess someone really wanted to make sure players will get to see these combat animations over. and over. and over.

[Hoth]

Is that Casterchick announcing the spells she's about to cast?
Annoying.

[Nerf]

It's a KMMO that lets me jump, I'm sold.
This is the kind of innovation I've been calling for, bravo.

[Draegan]

Some high quality gameplay movies

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2DqAkARHfg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83mlerN54zo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ee-0tDkCdA4

looks pretty but... it's like distilled essence of Korean diku game. And it apparently takes dozen hits at level.15 to kill a foozle that poses no challenge to the player whatsoever. Guess someone really wanted to make sure players will get to see these combat animations over. and over. and over.

It's basically NCSoft's attempt to break into the western market after a long localization phase.  It's a PVP version of WOW on it's basic level.  There are some raid type things but it's all driven from PVP.  

The only thing that concerns me is the grind attached to the game.  Lets see if they adjust it for the western market.  Looks pretty.

[PalmTrees]

Those first two bored me to tears, could only watch about a third of them. Wandering around fields of mobs, probably on some kill x quests, hoping no one else is around to take away the supply. Bleh.

The third one with the cut scene quest was a bit better, at least there looked to be some purpose behind what she was doing, not that I can read tiny, low resolution korean to see if the story was any good.

[Nija]

Here's a pvp video. I like this video because it tells me to avoid the game entirely. Same shit, different day.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAAxr8F30xY

[Draegan]

Yeah, if you don't like a WOW/WAR whatever style of DIKU pvp you're not going to like this game at all.  Same old stuff but just shiny and different.  Maybe this one will have a good PVP design.

[Engels]

I dunno, that PVP video was pretty disheartening. Jerky frames, the toon is miles away, all you see is floating numbers...If this is NC Soft's attempt to break into a western market...

[Falconeer]

I think you are all seriously underestimating Aion.

Those videos looks cool to me, as cool as a pre-AoC MMORPG can be when it comes to combat.


EDIT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PodO83jAWjs - Boring? Yes. As WoW can be. Cool? Hell yeah. Let me fucking try it.

[Tale]

World of Aioncraft - we copied EVERYTHING from your favourite game except the mounts, but gave you flight form.

WoW's graphics look dated to me now. These look the same.

[DayDream]

But, I've already played and quit WoW.  Why would I do it again?

Seriously though, just for kicks I'd like to see what would happen if some kmmo manager took over a western development house and they actually got a game out the door.  Graphics and animations all seem nice and solid if not to my personal taste, but the design just doesn't seem to show anything new.

edit: bah tale, you stole my line.

[Azuredream]

But, I've already played and quit WoW.  Why would I do it again?

Seriously though, just for kicks I'd like to see what would happen if some kmmo manager took over a western development house and they actually got a game out the door.  Graphics and animations all seem nice and solid if not to my personal taste, but the design just doesn't seem to show anything new.

Maybe I'm alone here, but as much as I love to play WoW, if somebody took WoW and remade the abilities and classes, threw in a couple new features but essentially copied the UI and quest-leveling format I would be all over it. When I stop playing WoW for periods it's usually because I've done everything I can and you get into a 'same-old' kind of routine. I would almost prefer they copy the UI and combat-style because EQ2, LotRO, Warhammer, and so forth, the combat has always felt clunky and the UI has always seemed like 'trying too hard' or 'frustrating to use.'

I think, though, that for it to have any kind of staying power with me it would have to do SOMETHING different and at least mildly innovative after the 'look, shiny!' phase wears off.

[Falconeer]

World of Aioncraft - we copied EVERYTHING from your favourite game except the mounts, but gave you flight form.

And now we are criticising whoever will be able to "copy" WoW and eventually made it better?

Not saying AT ALL this is the case. Just trying to understand if we are already in the phase where WoW invented MMORPGs and everything else is just a clone of it.

That would be amusing.

[Azuredream]

Just trying to understand if we are already in the phase where WoW invented MMORPGs and everything else is just a clone of it.

If we were looking at this from a historical perspective I'd say pre-2004 MMOs were laying down framework but WoW actually built the castle.

[Falconeer]

Just trying to understand if we are already in the phase where WoW invented MMORPGs and everything else is just a clone of it.

If we were looking at this from a historical perspective I'd say pre-2004 MMOs were laying down framework but WoW actually built the castle.

And castles is where architecture stopped evolving?

[Azuredream]

And castles is where architecture stopped evolving?

Still waiting for the market to evolve, sadly.

But yeah, when we've already established castles and we're 'innovating' by tearing the walls down and starting from scratch we're doing something wrong. 

[Falconeer]

Middle age didn't last that long for no reason. That said, let's testdrive this Aion and then we'll see. Hopes are the new black.

[Draegan]

I dunno, that PVP video was pretty disheartening. Jerky frames, the toon is miles away, all you see is floating numbers...If this is NC Soft's attempt to break into a western market...

I don't know, if you watch a lot of PVP videos for other games people sometimes make their game look like shit, but it's a personal preference I guess.

From all the live streams I've seen and all the personal accounts the game runs extremely smooth and stable.  Works on a lot of different hardware.

The only thing that will hurt this game in NA/EU will be terrible localization and a fuckup korean grind attached to it.  That's assuming the design concept is good of course, but that's assuming a lot.  However from what I've read the design is interesting enough to make me want to try it.

[DLRiley]

People are really over thinking this, Aion doesn't have to try anything new, it just has to not suck at keeping its target audience. Honestly the market for pve-diku with some pvp slapped on top ain't small and you don't have to be innovative to attract that crowd. big shiny graphics and a stable server and you have yourself a few hundred thousand to break even with guaranteed in NA/EU at least. Hell you do worse trying to act like your doing something special. Western gamers aren't as pissy about grindy pieces of shit as they should, i wouldn't be surprised if this game comes with a xpotion selling cash shop  .