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Title: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: naum on February 15, 2007, 09:48:07 AM http://www.stevenberlinjohnson.com/2007/02/five_thoughts_o.html
Quote 1. Playing Wii Sports Tennis for the first time was the most revelatory, breakthrough gaming experience I've had since I first saw Myst in the mid 90s. It's truly one of those transformations where you immediately think: this whole medium is capable of something radically different from what we've expected of it to date. 2. Others may disagree, but from my perspective, Wii Tennis is so much better than all the other Wii Sports games that part of me wonders whether the controller interface is in fact uniquely suited for tennis games, and will prove to be a disappointment elsewhere. (I'm sure it will be wonderful for golf, actually -- I just have higher expectations for golf sims than the Wii Sports version.) Wii Bowling, to its credit, probably sets some kind of record for being the closest approximation of a real-world sport in the history of games. Other than the weight of the ball itself, there's basically no difference between bowling in real life and bowling on the Wii. Not being a huge fan of bowling personally, I consider this to be both good and bad news. 3. Wii Tennis is the first videogame since the second SimCity that my wife has taken even the slightest interest in playing. This alone leads me to believe that they have a massive, category-changing hit on their hands. 4. Part of the beauty of Wii Tennis is what they left out. It's absolutely crucial to the game that you don't control the players' movements, that they just chase the balls on their own. If you'd added player-controlled movement, the learning curve would have been much more steep. Same goes for letting a single player control both onscreen players in a doubles match without actively switching between them. By removing those variables, they made a game where it's fun to play the second you pick up the controller. (For what it's worth, I still think they should add an "accelerate" button for shots that your onscreen player won't reach on his or her own. If you press the button your onscreen avatar will run just a little faster in whatever direction he or she is running.) 5. Having written so much about the complexity of today's games, it's fascinating to see a platform so heavily promoting its comparative simplicity. But I think the success of the Wii is slightly more complicated than that. Wii Sports trades the onscreen complexity of goals and objectives and puzzles for the physical, haptic complexity of bodily movement. Since the days of Pong, games have been simplifying the intricacies of movement into unified codes of button pressing and joystick manipulation. What strikes you immediately playing Wii Sports -- and particularly Tennis -- is this feeling of fluidity, the feeling that subtle, organic shifts in your body's motion will lead to different results onscreen. My wife has a crosscourt slam she hits at the net that for the life of me I haven't been able to figure out; I have a topspin return of soft serves that I've half-perfected that's unhittable. We both got to those techniques through our own athletic experimentation with various gestures, and I'm not sure I could even fully explain what I'm doing with my killer topspin shot. In a traditional game, I'd know exactly what I was doing: hitting the B button, say, while holding down the right trigger. Instead, my expertise with the shot has evolved through the physical trial-and-error of swinging the controller, experimenting with different gestures and timings. And that's ultimately what's so amazing about the device. Games for years have borrowed the structures and rules -- as well as the imagery -- of athletic competition, but the Wii adds something genuinely new to the mix, something we'd ignored so long we stopped noticing that it was missing: athleticism itself. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Sky on February 15, 2007, 09:57:36 AM If I wanted a visceral feel of playing tennis, I'd play tennis. Ditto golf, etc.
I play games because I want to sit on my couch and not do stuff. If I want to do stuff, I do stuff. Whatever. That killer topspin shot not even he could explain? We call that exploting AI. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: HaemishM on February 15, 2007, 11:54:59 AM Except that it isn't exploiting AI, it's just his fairly unique way of responding to the controller.
I agree that sometimes there are games I just want to sit on the couch and play. Strategy games, TBS, things of that nature. But I also want to have games that MAKE me do things, like the way Red Steel gets me out of my chair for sword fights. I tend to agree with this guy on the Wii. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: SnakeCharmer on February 15, 2007, 12:07:46 PM I was thinking about the Wii last night after I got the email from LucasArts about their next Star Wars game (The Force Unleashed).
How cool would a game like that be if you could use the Wii controller to swing a lightsaber around? Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Rasix on February 15, 2007, 12:21:52 PM If I wanted a visceral feel of playing tennis, I'd play tennis. Ditto golf, etc. I play games because I want to sit on my couch and not do stuff. If I want to do stuff, I do stuff. Whatever. That killer topspin shot not even he could explain? We call that exploting AI. I'm going to have to agree to a point. I like the layer of abstraction that a controller gives me, especially for activities that I have a closeness to. I play tennis. Regular tennis games can annoy the shit out of me for the liberties they take with their interpretation of the sport. This bothers me only on an intellectual level. Add a physical component to that interpretation and I'm just likely to see so many goddamn faults it'll drive me to destroy controllers. I can hit topsin, IN REAL LIFE. Now, what happens if the Wii doesn't feel that my topspin is Wii topspin? It's a close physical mapping of a physical activity. With the abstraction of a controller, I can hit a button and there's my topspin. There's no interpretation of my moments. I can hit can also hit with slice or hit it flat with a button push. All without layer of interpretation that may or may not synch with what I physically know to be accurate. I could try this out for myself and it could be that Wii tennis is so excellently modeled that my actual strokes will produce the desired effects on screen. Very, very doubtful. Maybe I'll jump around like an idiot the next time I visit schild in Phoenix. I'm just not seeing the appeal of the Wii anymore. Like Sky, gaming is relaxation for me. I want to be sitting down somewhere with a beverage and at most standing up for Guitar Hero (which I can only take for so long, that Anthrax guy was right, that game jacks your arm), not jumping around flailing my arms like a loopy tard. Ninja Edit (because I see Roac replying :-D ): this is a pure "gamer" perspective. I'm not saying this sort of visceral interaction doesn't appeal to others. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Roac on February 15, 2007, 12:22:03 PM How cool would a game like that be if you could use the Wii controller to swing a lightsaber around? Cool enough that I'm surprised they didn't have a title doing that in the works well before launch. To the point that, if someone produced a Jedi Knight III on the Wii, it would probably be an instant I Win button for this generation of console wars. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Rasix on February 15, 2007, 12:26:17 PM How cool would a game like that be if you could use the Wii controller to swing a lightsaber around? Cool enough that I'm surprised they didn't have a title doing that in the works well before launch. To the point that, if someone produced a Jedi Knight III on the Wii, it would probably be an instant I Win button for this generation of console wars. Should make for interesting YouTube videos. The next "Star Wars kid" may be among us. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Roac on February 15, 2007, 12:41:41 PM Harry Potter... that was the other game, although I'd bet it wouldn't do as well as a Jedi one. Before the Wii came out those were the two titles that my wife and I thought were no-brainers for a Nintendo insta-win. I haven't done much with them, but I recall that some of the Potter games liked using mouse gestures to cast spells. Doing that with your Wii-wand would drive fans nuts. Third thing it needs is a Halo-like shooter. Far Cry, Red Steel, etc are just so-so. It needs a top notch, M-rated shooter. Unfortunately, the only one of the three which looks possible is Potter, due this summer. There are a lot of shooter games in the works, but none of them stands out as THE game. Still early though.
Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Sky on February 15, 2007, 12:54:04 PM I, too, am not rejecting the fun factor out of hand. Just saying it's not my cup of tea. See also: Dance Dance Revolution.
Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: stray on February 15, 2007, 01:02:33 PM I can hit topsin, IN REAL LIFE. Now, what happens if the Wii doesn't feel that my topspin is Wii topspin? It's a close physical mapping of a physical activity. It's funny. I totally suck at tennis in real life. Bad. But I totally kick ass at Wii Tennis. To the point where I just have to give up the controller and let other people play. Baseball: I'm pretty good at it in real life. I'm a pretty creative and fast pitcher (umm, relatively speaking...I'm not Kurt Schilling ;)), and generally can hit balls where I want, etc.. Totally suck on the Wii though. Even more strange, I have more success playing right handed than I do left (i.e my good hand). I'd rather take a traditional baseball game over Wii Sports (besides, the ball in play part of Wii Baseball sucks). Just my two cents. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: naum on February 15, 2007, 01:34:30 PM My daughter & boyfriend have a Wii too and they've come over bringing their controllers a bunch of times already and with 4 controllers, playing Wii sports is a lot of fun. Mrs. Naum digs it more than me, and I haven't seen her express much interest in a video game since the DC & Crazy Taxi and Virtua Fighter… …our son gets so into it, he's sweating and for some reason, he's got the knack for tennis & baseball both, and I'm not sure how he does the wicked topspin shots. But definitely, different motion range than the real sport -- you're exercising muscles that I'm not sure there's a lot of real life use for unless you're trying to get some lever pulling experience.
I find it impossible to play Wii sports sitting down. And I do agree that with the crossover appeal, Nintendo has a massive, category-changing hit on their hands… …you hardcore gamer sorts can deride it all you want, but it's "freshened" video game consoles up again… Surprised too, about no "light sabre wielding game" being available. Seems like a no-brainer…… Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: CmdrSlack on February 15, 2007, 01:42:55 PM I agree on the light-saber games. I also think that those kind of games would lend very well to the "custom controller" thing that Schild said he wanted. (I still think that's wayy too much clutter, but hey, whatever.)
I'm still waiting for there to be reliable stock of Wii consoles in teh stores, but it sounds like a lot more fun than sitting on the couch or bed and mashing buttons. Quote Kurt Schilling Is the "k" part of that alternative political spelling thing? :evil: Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: stray on February 15, 2007, 01:58:56 PM Oh, my bad. Every "Kurt" I've known spelled it with a K, I think.
Anyways, I disagree with the lightsaber thing. Why is this even being brought it up here? Cool idea and all, but an entirely different thing from mass crossover appeal. Jedi I-Win button? Can you be any more out of touch? It wouldn't do any more favors for the Wii as Shadows did for the N64 (not bad, but mainly a popular, but traditionally kid/geek/gamer oriented title. Same with Harry Potter). Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: CmdrSlack on February 15, 2007, 02:19:58 PM Anyways, I disagree with the lightsaber thing. Why is this even being brought it up here? Cool idea and all, but an entirely different thing from mass crossover appeal. Jedi I-Win button? Can you be any more out of touch? It wouldn't do any more favors for the Wii as Shadows did for the N64 (not bad, but mainly a popular, but traditionally kid/geek/gamer oriented title. Same with Harry Potter). Uh, I don't know if it'd be an "I Win" button. I mostly agreed on the "damn that'd be a fun use of the Wiimote" point. I guess I should quote more often. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: stray on February 15, 2007, 02:36:03 PM Sorry 'bout that. I was more replying to Roac than you.
I-Win button as far as tradtional game audiences go though. I'd agree on that. That's IF Lucas Arts actually found someone who could make a non shitty looking game on Nintendo hardware (besides Factor 5). Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Trippy on February 15, 2007, 03:54:46 PM How cool would a game like that be if you could use the Wii controller to swing a lightsaber around? Cool enough that I'm surprised they didn't have a title doing that in the works well before launch. To the point that, if someone produced a Jedi Knight III on the Wii, it would probably be an instant I Win button for this generation of console wars. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuzFzs0hPKc Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: CmdrSlack on February 15, 2007, 04:24:59 PM How cool would a game like that be if you could use the Wii controller to swing a lightsaber around? Cool enough that I'm surprised they didn't have a title doing that in the works well before launch. To the point that, if someone produced a Jedi Knight III on the Wii, it would probably be an instant I Win button for this generation of console wars. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuzFzs0hPKc Oh if only that was really going to be out for the Wii. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Margalis on February 15, 2007, 06:02:20 PM Wii Tennis is the best game, but golf, boxing and baseball are all fun too. Bowling I find quite boring.
I would *love* a Wii Tennis game where you could control the movement, but I agree for Wii Sports they made the right choice. (But bury it is an option??) My friend and I are good enough that we can hit un-returnable shots pretty well off a non-super serve - the ability to control your characters would mitigate that. A golf game more complex than Wii Golf would be great also...um and so would boxing and baseball... But the Tennis is just awesome. My friend and I played a game where we were on match point for about 12 minutes going back and forth. Edit: I do like using my body. I am in shape, I like exercise. I enjoy things like snow shovelling to some degree. Physical activty is always something I'm up for. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Roac on February 15, 2007, 06:06:50 PM Anyways, I disagree with the lightsaber thing. Why is this even being brought it up here? Cool idea and all, but an entirely different thing from mass crossover appeal. Jedi I-Win button? Can you be any more out of touch? You mean something like this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuzFzs0hPKc Because any guy under 20, and everyone over 20 who enjoyed being under 20, wants that video to be real. Every inner geek who would otherwise want to derride the Wii will fall all over themselves to get that. The other demographic, wives, daughters, friends, etc are covered fairly well already. Wii Sports, Wii Play, Rayman, Warioware, Elebits, and the soon to be released Mario Party have the family/party thing nailed. That's the main strength of the Wii right now, and why it's in such huge demand. What you're *not* seeing are more serious gamers (very many of them anyway) dying to get one, because they're missing that Star Wars or Halo thing to clinch it. Soon as they pull that segment off really well, you might actually start seeing some (few) households with more than one Wii. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Big Gulp on February 15, 2007, 07:24:00 PM What you're *not* seeing are more serious gamers (very many of them anyway) dying to get one, because they're missing that Star Wars or Halo thing to clinch it. It also doesn't help that any way you slice it, the eye candy is substandard. There may not be as many shallow bastards as me, but I assure you that we do exist. That's okay, though, because I really don't think Nintendo is concerned about people like me. They're concentrating on the non-gamers who vastly outnumber my demographic. Seems to be working for them, but then again, non-gamers are non-gamers for a reason and when the novelty wears off the Wii will gather dust. You need the hard-core for longevity, and that's where I think the Wii seriously lacks. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: stray on February 15, 2007, 07:48:33 PM I believe it's possible to get eye candy on the Wii, but most GC/Wii titles are intentionally/carelessly made to look bad. Seriously. I can't think of any other reason. Most of the developers probably think Nintendo owners don't care (and maybe they don't).
If Factor 5 can make an attractive game for the GameCube's launch, way back in 2001 (to this day, it still looks good), then the average title on the Wii should look at least that good. If they don't, then it tells me that they don't care. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Margalis on February 15, 2007, 11:45:22 PM One thing I will say is that the number of "party" games is a bit annoying. I like party games but I don't need 15, especially not when 10 of them are mediocre.
I disagree that the Wii is for non-gamers. I see it as being for both. I honestly don't understand how anyone can play Wii Sports with a friend and not enjoy it, but I guess that is just me. I think we'll see plenty of ports and other games that appeal to "real" gamers. For one thing the return on investment is right. Games sell more and cost less to make - winner. It is an easy economic decision. Right now it does appear to be a dumping ground for party titles, but those titles can be made fast and cheap. As they have to compete with each other more they will die off a bit, and in addition they are coming out now just because they are *done* now. A company that got their dev kits 8 months ago could be finishing a party game now, but not finishing a hardcore game. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Samwise on February 16, 2007, 12:13:28 AM I believe it's possible to get eye candy on the Wii, but most GC/Wii titles are intentionally/carelessly made to look bad. Have you seen the hardware stats on the Nintendo consoles? There's a reason they're so much cheaper than the competition. I'm constantly impressed by how good the developers get their games to look on those things. Gamecube specs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_GameCube#Hardware_specifications) - 486 MHz CPU, 43 MB RAM, 162 MHz GPU Wii specs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wii#Technical_specifications) - 729 MHz CPU, 88 MB RAM, 243 MHz GPU I'm sure that somehow those numbers are misleading and that the performance is actually double what you'd think. It's still pretty damn impressive what they can pull off on it. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: stray on February 16, 2007, 12:17:56 AM [EDIT] Oops, repeating what Margalis said about ROI.
[EDIT] Have you seen the hardware stats on the Nintendo consoles? There's a reason they're so much cheaper than the competition. I'm constantly impressed by how good the developers get their games to look on those things. I'm sure that somehow those numbers are misleading and that the performance is actually double what you'd think. It's still pretty damn impressive what they can pull off on it. But then, many games may also end up looking like this: (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v231/lonestar627/Games/wing_island.jpg) Gah. That's even worse than many GameCube games. What the hell? Btw, that's Wing Island (coming next month on Wii). The same developer (Hudson Soft) makes this (http://screenshots.teamxbox.com/gallery/1539/Fuzion-Frenzy-2/p1/) for the Xbox. Obviously, they're not that bad at making visually appealing titles (if they can make a freakin' puzzler look good, then they should at least make a plane flying game look better than the above. The Wii hardware can't be THAT bad). For reference, here's a 2001 GC launch title (just to show what can be done with less power....on a launch title at that): (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v231/lonestar627/Games/rogueleader.jpg) Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: CmdrSlack on February 16, 2007, 07:25:56 AM Isnt' that GC title a Star Wars title? I sort of thought that LA was pretty adamant about how stuff should look. I dunno if that's really a great comparison, solely based on the LA angle.
Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Murgos on February 16, 2007, 07:45:32 AM Gamecube specs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_GameCube#Hardware_specifications) - 486 MHz CPU, 43 MB RAM, 162 MHz GPU Wii specs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wii#Technical_specifications) - 729 MHz CPU, 88 MB RAM, 243 MHz GPU I'm sure that somehow those numbers are misleading and that the performance is actually double what you'd think. It's still pretty damn impressive what they can pull off on it. Using clock cycles to measure system performance is misleading at best. The only reason anyone cares is that Intel has spent a lot of money saying more clock cycles == better. Many AMD chips, for example, out perform Intel chips that operate at 20% or greater core clock speeds. The honest truth is that much of the CPU sits there burning cycles and not using large portions of it's architecture most of the time. With the same architecture more clock cycles is better performance. Once the chip architecture changes it's pretty much a meaningless distinction. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: HaemishM on February 16, 2007, 09:49:40 AM Images of Wing Island and Fusion Frenzy 2 In this case, that's hardly a fair comparison. The Fusion Frenzy you linked is on the 360, so the developers have a shitton more tricks, better anti-aliasing, etc. to work with, not to mention a greater resolution. It's why when I look at the graphics on a Wii title like CoD3, I don't compare them to the PS3 or 360 version, because there isn't any comparison. The games are going to look better on next-gen hardware, period. You'd be better off comparing Wing Island to Crimson Skies, and yes, it'll lose that battle too but at least it's a fair battle. For graphics capability, the Wii IS on a the level with the PS2, GC and X-Box. This is where we have the paralell development issue. It's like Murgos's comparison of Intel/AMD, where using the same measurement (clock speed) is no longer applicable because they work differently. Only with artwork and graphics, the measurements are totally subjective, with about the only objectively measurable comparisons are with things like use of anti-aliasing, colors or effects. Wing Island does look worse than say RE4, but I'd say there are next-gen games that don't look as good as RE4 did on a GC. Wing Island looks bland, but I'm still interested in it, because of how it MIGHT play. If the play sucks, the game sucks. If the graphics are bland but the play is great, it's all moot. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Baldrake on February 16, 2007, 10:27:54 AM I play tennis. Regular tennis games can annoy the shit out of me for the liberties they take with their interpretation of the sport. This bothers me only on an intellectual level. Add a physical component to that interpretation and I'm just likely to see so many goddamn faults it'll drive me to destroy controllers. I can hit topsin, IN REAL LIFE. Now, what happens if the Wii doesn't feel that my topspin is Wii topspin? It's a close physical mapping of a physical activity. This is a very insightful comment. It's analogous to the idea of the uncanny valley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_Valley), which we often use to describe the phenomenon where graphics that are too close to reality become creepy. It's ironic that by improving our control scheme, we magnify any dissonance with reality.But we wouldn't say we should stop working on graphics because of the uncanny valley. We are aware of the problem in game design, and try to not to fall into it. We need to do the same with motion sensitive control. But it's a challenge to be aware of. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Yegolev on February 16, 2007, 11:20:14 AM There are at least two different directions here, in my mind. More than two, really, but considering the way the wind blows in console discussions it comes down to two major ones. Simply put, there are games that look good in the way that, say, Paper Mario: TTYD looks good or Metroid Prime looks good, or in the way that (since I don't have an x360) Resistance looks good.
I will put it out there flatly. If you play Prince of Persia: Warrior Within on the Cube, you are going to think the Cube sucks balls in a technical way. The dithering alone is painful. If you start off with Mario Sunshine, then move to Eternal Darkness and on to Metroid Prime, you can see the progression where developers are working with the platform. Not only is this in the realm of knowing-the-hardware, it's also in the realm of knowing your limitations. This is exactly how such great-looking titles are being produced for the PS2; it's not just that programmers know how to optimize for the hardware, they also know the limits and are able to optimize in design. The GC and it's sequel are not as powerful as the competition, and that is a fact. I would submit that there is a lot of leeway in what is done with those restrictions. Creative people do not like restrictions, but the truly creative can create within restrictions. I will go out on my own here and say that the example of what is being done with the PS2 in 2007 is an example of what can be done on the Wii... eventually. For me, it's easy since I will end up owning all of the consoles. Even the x360 that I don't have right now, especially since it looks like I'm not going to "finish" Phantom Dust. The question is, am I going to have a reflection of the Cube library when it's all said and done? The hardest titles on the Wii are likely to be the Zelda that everyone has now, plus palette-restricted stuff like Paper Mario. I'm OK with that. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: stray on February 16, 2007, 11:54:47 AM The hardest titles on the Wii are likely to be the Zelda that everyone has now, plus palette-restricted stuff like Paper Mario. I'm OK with that. I'm OK with 20 titles like that (note: I'd say the same for any other console). [EDIT] In this case, that's hardly a fair comparison. The Fusion Frenzy you linked is on the 360, so the developers have a shitton more tricks, better anti-aliasing, etc. to work with, not to mention a greater resolution. I know it's a 360 title, but I'm only pointing it out to show that Hudson isn't an incompetent or careless developer. They're able to take advantage of the 360, even for a puzzler. But for a flight game on a Wii? No. Also, the real comparison is between Rogue Leader and Wing Island. Quote Wing Island looks bland, but I'm still interested in it, because of how it MIGHT play. If the play sucks, the game sucks. If the graphics are bland but the play is great, it's all moot. You should be playing Pilot Wings 64, and not even owning a new console then. [EDIT] Oh wait. Nevermind. Wiimote. :| Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: HaemishM on February 16, 2007, 12:21:54 PM Quote Wing Island looks bland, but I'm still interested in it, because of how it MIGHT play. If the play sucks, the game sucks. If the graphics are bland but the play is great, it's all moot. You should be playing Pilot Wings 64, and not even owning a new console then. [EDIT] Oh wait. Nevermind. Wiimote. :| Yeah, that's the X-Factor. IF it's used correctly, it's the shiznit. If not, well, it's just another game on an X-Box level system. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Trippy on February 16, 2007, 02:00:41 PM Gamecube specs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_GameCube#Hardware_specifications) - 486 MHz CPU, 43 MB RAM, 162 MHz GPU Using clock cycles to measure system performance is misleading at best. The only reason anyone cares is that Intel has spent a lot of money saying more clock cycles == better. Many AMD chips, for example, out perform Intel chips that operate at 20% or greater core clock speeds.Wii specs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wii#Technical_specifications) - 729 MHz CPU, 88 MB RAM, 243 MHz GPU I'm sure that somehow those numbers are misleading and that the performance is actually double what you'd think. It's still pretty damn impressive what they can pull off on it. The honest truth is that much of the CPU sits there burning cycles and not using large portions of it's architecture most of the time. With the same architecture more clock cycles is better performance. Once the chip architecture changes it's pretty much a meaningless distinction. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: CmdrSlack on February 16, 2007, 03:27:58 PM I find this stuff amusing on two levels. I'm not a hardware guy by any stretch of the imagination. I see spec lists and my eyes glaze over. My rule of thumb is that bigger numbers = better stuff. I also know that it's a stupid mindset, so I tend to do tons of research before buying stuff. It's also funny because I wonder how many people are like me, but without the research. Is the eye candy really that important for the average person?
I'm planning on buying a Wii for a few reasons, but eye candy isn't one of them. Our current TV isn't an HD model. We're not in a position to buy a flat HD tv, and short of strong arming the Mrs. into contributing part of her tax return towards that purpose, we're not looking at getting one any time soon. We could get a tube HD, but that seems like a waste. The other factor is that the Wii interests her. This is huge because she is generally not interested in games. At any rate, I think we're a good example of a household that would buy a Wii over the other systems. The hardware specs don't matter to us. The price point, nifty control system, and apparently fun game (Wii sports) do. Looking at our media racks, we have exactly six Xbox titles and twenty PS2 titles. That's it. We don't spend a ton of money or time on console games. However, I think that most people who know me would describe me as a gamer who is casual by force, not by choice. I just don't get alll the Wii hate/skepticism/mehness. Granted, I also don't understand console partisanship in the first place. It seems like the console vs. PC debates of the late 90s, but more inane. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: stray on February 16, 2007, 04:00:39 PM I just don't get alll the Wii hate/skepticism/mehness. Who hates the Wii? I, for one, am not hating. Saying Wing Island looks like shit has nothing to do with hate. It's the truth. Wii owners are being treated like second class citizens in the graphics department, and it's unnecessary. It's a decent enough console, if they make the effort. Games on a new console don't have to look that bad. It's also partially the owners' fault too. It's like the gaming version of Stockholm syndrome: You get so used to that second class status that you start defending it (not you necessarily, but Nintendo fanbois in general). Saying things like "graphics don't matter in video games" is asinine and just encourages them to do a half ass job. Graphics do matter (the whole package matters), else you'd be playing Hungry Hippo or Uno. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: CmdrSlack on February 16, 2007, 04:19:25 PM Graphics do matter (the whole package matters), else you'd be playing Hungry Hippo or Uno. I agree that they matter to some extent, but if the Wii is basically PS2 quality graphics, that's fine for me considering the price point. We can only afford the clunky version (tube HDTV) of the hardware that makes the 360 or PS3 worthwhile, so the whole 1080whatever action is not important to me. If someone comes out with a game that looks like ass, that's cool, but "looks like ass" is largely a subjective measure. My 1 year old daughter (who is the most beautiful kid ever in the history of kids) apparently loves sock/finger puppets, even though we've shown her much cooler media. If a game truly sucks as far as graphics goes, then yeah, it sucks, but the Wii itself isn't necessarily without potential (as you've indicated with your "GC launch" screens). Also, Hungry Hungry Hippos is the mack. Moreover, Uno rocks, although I prefer "Hot Death Uno," a PC game that was in existence back in 1994. I have no idea if you can still find it, but it was way better/more abusive than Uno. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Margalis on February 16, 2007, 04:25:11 PM I also play real tennis, baseball and a little boxing occasionally and I don't see the uncanny valley problem. Putting slice on a ball or doing a lob in Wii Tennis is not supposed to feel super realistic. To me it doesn't come off as a strange approximation of reality.
I don't think anyone tries to market Wii Sports based on the realistic controls. More realistic? Sure. But realism isn't the point. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Yegolev on February 19, 2007, 08:45:10 AM I don't know anything much about the GC or Wii PowerPC chip, but I will say that there is a lot of leeway in the silicon for things with the PowerPC label. I do believe that the Wii CPU is a GC CPU with a faster clock, but there are probably some differences that most people won't notice.
Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: HaemishM on February 19, 2007, 09:22:28 AM Wii owners are being treated like second class citizens in the graphics department, and it's unnecessary. Actually, there are a few reasons from Nintendo's standpoint that it is necessary. 1) It's more expensive to make the console, meaning they'd likely have to sell the hardware at break even or at a loss. I gather this is against Big N's philosophy. I happen to agree with that philosophy. 2) It's about 3 to 4 times more expensive to make the games, and takes longer to get to market with a game. See profit motive above. Also, it means the games can cost less to the consumer, which should lower some of the resistance to buying a lot of games. 3) It self-selects users of your console to the early adopters. Despite recent price cuts, there are still people without HDTV. Why sell only to them? 4) They couldn't compete in the HD department with the 360 and PS3, because they are unused to it. Both their competitors have big head starts in that department. Add in the loss of profits from 1-3 above, and that means that the Wii would have been like the GC, a 3rd fiddle console that no one paid attention to or took seriously. The competitive advantage of the motion-sensitive controls is huge, and it's so far proven to be a big factor, combined with the pricing issues. No one has said graphics don't matter. I've said that graphics matter less than gameplay, so long as the graphics are up to a reasonable standard. To me, the X-Box met that reasonable standard (when used well) and the Wii is about on that level of graphical ability. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: schild on February 19, 2007, 11:19:49 AM Did I end up in lolsville?
They're treated as second class citizens because they are. It's a fucking gamecube. If companies want to make a game that's graphically awesome, they're going to make it for a system that is graphically awesome. The Wii is lucky it's getting No More Heroes. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: HaemishM on February 19, 2007, 12:27:08 PM LET THEM EAT CAKE!
Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Yegolev on February 19, 2007, 01:44:45 PM Hehe. That was funny.
Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: CmdrSlack on February 19, 2007, 01:50:58 PM Is the cake eating a close approximation of actual cake eating or is it just a nifty gesture that capitalizes on the unique qualities of the Wiimote?
Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: HaemishM on February 19, 2007, 02:44:35 PM You have to fit the whole Wiimote into your mouth at once or you fail the level.
Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Margalis on February 19, 2007, 02:48:09 PM You guys never get tired of this argument huh?
"ZOMG THE GRAPHIX!!!" "ZOMG THE CONTROLS!!!!!" Did I just entirely summarize the debate? Yes, I believe so. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: stray on February 19, 2007, 02:50:24 PM If companies want to make a game that's graphically awesome, they're going to make it for a system that is graphically awesome. The Wii is lucky it's getting No More Heroes. Yeah, but still.... It's bad enough that they don't even have competitive hardware, but it's worse that developers aren't even trying very hard to tweak their games on a hardware design that's already been out for 7 years now (generally speaking). You would think that they would know the in's and out's of this particular Broadway/ATI combo by now that the average game could look as good as Rogue Leader or RE4. You would think that there'd be enough love and middleware to spread around that even incompetent designers could make a decent looking title on this hardware. There's no excuse for a game to look like Wing Island (and hell, that isn't even out yet...that's the quality of a "future" title, so to speak). I don't give a fuck if it's fun. A lot of games are fun. Did I just entirely summarize the debate? Yes, I believe so. No. :-) Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: WindupAtheist on February 19, 2007, 03:23:39 PM Bushido Blade for Wii plz.
Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Calantus on February 19, 2007, 06:03:32 PM Good call, if Bushido Blade came out for Wii I'd have to own one right away.
I don't see the need to play tennis or golf or any other sport with a Wiimote. I can just... play the sport. I play games to do shit I can't or won't do IRL. Abstract sports I can understand, but if I'm immitating the sport to the degree that I'm swinging my arm I see no point. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: schild on February 19, 2007, 06:17:20 PM At first I saw the Wii translating well to swordplay. After using one... no.
Just no. Would I want Bushido Blade on something that would actually translate well? Oh fuck yes. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: stray on February 19, 2007, 07:52:19 PM All another Bushido Blade would need is more shiny.
I could see Wiimote potential in FPS sword games though, or something really zoomed on the shoulder like RE4. Not some side view/third person affair like Bushido. It's a fighting game. The controls for fighting games have been excellent for, oh....20 years now. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Velorath on February 19, 2007, 07:59:30 PM There's no excuse for a game to look like Wing Island (and hell, that isn't even out yet...that's the quality of a "future" title, so to speak). I don't give a fuck if it's fun. A lot of games are fun. Wing Island was a launch title for Japan. Yep, it looks like shit graphically and my take on why they're even bothering to bring it to the U.S. is because they see the drought in Wii games and figure they can get a few quick bucks with it. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Margalis on February 19, 2007, 08:08:44 PM A lot of these games only had 6-8 months of development. And a lot of companies thought the Wii would do not so well and so didn't put in that much effort.
Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: stray on February 19, 2007, 08:10:19 PM A lot of these games only had 6-8 months of development. And a lot of companies thought the Wii would do not so well and so didn't put in that much effort. OK, fair enough point... Still doesn't explain that it's essentially an architecture that's already been around for awhile though, with enough tools and expert advice to enhance visuals to a more acceptable level. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: CmdrSlack on February 19, 2007, 08:16:01 PM A lot of these games only had 6-8 months of development. And a lot of companies thought the Wii would do not so well and so didn't put in that much effort. OK, fair enough point... Still doesn't explain that it's essentially an architecture that's already been around for awhile though, with enough tools and expert advice to enhance visuals to a more acceptable level. There are still ugly games made for the Xbox and PS2 as well. I don't think Wing Island is the death knell of the system. For fuck's sake, I still can't find one in teh damn stores. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: stray on February 19, 2007, 08:22:10 PM It's not a death knell in and of itself per se. It's a symptom of the general carelessness many developers have approached Nintendo platforms in recent years. It's not an isolated case.
[EDIT] I'm really struggling to think of titles NOT made by Capcom and Nintendo that were really pushing the GC hardware. And hell, even Nintendo (and whoever they were shoving the work to) doesn't do that all the time either. Err..Actually, the new Wii Sonic looks pretty nice, I guess. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: schild on February 19, 2007, 10:21:56 PM (http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/8147/anticipationnes1gh4.jpg)
Ironically, Nintendo's first party game. Also: That's what people who wouldn't spluge for a PS3 or 360 built up while waiting for the Wii, savior and redeemer of the working class. Too bad they didn't make a game called broken dreams. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Margalis on February 19, 2007, 10:43:08 PM Or a game called "been there, done that - now with enhanced sweat graphics."
See...this debate can go on forever...and is incredibly stupid. Novel idea: buy the system you want! Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: schild on February 19, 2007, 11:12:50 PM Nope. These days it's Buy All Three Systems. This isn't Genesis vs. SNES.
Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: stray on February 20, 2007, 12:33:16 AM Or a game called "been there, done that - now with enhanced sweat graphics." Sure whatever. Fighter sequels are fine by me. Fine as fine can be. Especially for a series that's only had one sequel. I'll take an enhanced Bushido Blade over some turd that 1) the developers wouldn't care about anyways (because the users keep on leading them to believe that they will all settle for shit, even when it's completely unnecessary) and 2) wouldn't even be ideal with a Wiimote. First person motion for a game dependent on side cameras (or at best, isometric) is retarded. The Wiimote is not the right tool for every job. Not even in a minor way, as standard controllers are. It's not a valid alternative. Sure it has it's strengths, but it has some (dare I say it) game fucking breaking weaknesses too. And this would be one of them. Also, I'm not trying to instigate a system war. I'm not offering some either/or scenario here. For the last time: I like the Wii. I like it just as much as any fanboi here. In fact, I'd say that I might even like it more for the simple reason that I recognize both it's strengths AND weaknesses, and don't try turn it into Robot Jesus. I like it more because I'd rather spare it from those silly expectations. I want to see it be good at what it's obviously good at, and stay the hell away from what it's obviously bad at. And bottom line: I like it more because I will end up having 20 to 30 more games than those cheap bastards when it's all finished with. But this is all beside the point -- Which was simply that both the GC and Wii are capable of power, but aren't taken advantage of enough. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: CmdrSlack on February 20, 2007, 05:44:46 AM Nope. These days it's Buy All Three Systems. This isn't Genesis vs. SNES. Maybe for people like you, who spend their disposable income entirely on games and movies. There's plenty of people out there that can reasonably afford one console, but not all three. Since they are entirely a luxury item, none of them are utterly essential. Gaming doesn't HAVE to be a career or a pretentious art boy hobby. Some people just want to play a game or two now and then. It's true, they're out there. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Roac on February 20, 2007, 06:34:36 AM Nope. These days it's Buy All Three Systems. This isn't Genesis vs. SNES. These days most people like to do things besides sit on a couch. Hell, I think I play games more than anyone I know IRL and there's no way I can burn through all the games I'd like to play just on two consoles (PS2/Wii). For that matter I'd be happy with just one; the only reason I got a Wii when I did is because the wife likes to play 2p stuff on it, and that's a bonus for me. I'm hardly the poster child for healthy recreational activities, but fuck man. Get Out More Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: stray on February 20, 2007, 08:47:22 AM Dude, c'mon. This is a gaming forum.
Or at least it should be. If you take the time to TALK about games on the net , then it doesn't matter how many "more" games Schild or anyone else plays than you. It's a big enough hobby to put you far, far out of the norm too. And if you actually aren't that far from the norm, then why talk about them so much? That's just weird. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: CmdrSlack on February 20, 2007, 09:14:47 AM Dude, c'mon. This is a gaming forum. Or at least it should be. If you take the time to TALK about games on the net , then it doesn't matter how many "more" games Schild or anyone else plays than you. It's a big enough hobby to put you far, far out of the norm too. And if you actually aren't that far from the norm, then why talk about them so much? That's just weird. That doesn't mean that owning all three consoles is required. I think that's the point. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: stray on February 20, 2007, 09:19:27 AM Owning all consoles has less to do with not getting out enough than it does 1) not being a cheap bastard and 2) going where the games are at. They all demand attention.
Besides, he never said one should get all of them now. We have about 4 or 5 years to see what they all have to offer (well....maybe...I think Microsoft would love to have 3 year cycles instead of 5). Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: schild on February 20, 2007, 09:42:07 AM It took me 3 years and a hell of a modding scene to convince me to get an Xbox. Even then, I bought it for 1. Ninja Gaiden, and 2. Xbox Media Center.
I almost never condone getting a machine at launch for people besides myself and people that actually buy games new. I like to pretend that people that wait to buy new games used don't exist around these parts. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Roac on February 20, 2007, 09:45:46 AM If you take the time to TALK about games on the net , then it doesn't matter how many "more" games Schild or anyone else plays than you. It's a big enough hobby to put you far, far out of the norm too. Of course I'm outside the norm. I even went so far as to say exactly that in my last post. The difference between Schild and I, and the criticism that I'm making, is that unlike him I don't expect anyone else to be like me. I don't really expect anyone to buy one console, let alone two or three. I don't care if Schild or anyone else buys all three consoles. I don't care that it's his mission in life to buy all the titles for all three consoles. The joke is where he thinks that he's the norm, or that buying all three consoles is what you're somehow "supposed to do". Margalis is right, buy whatever system you like. Or none of them, if you don't like any of them. Or all of them if you do. Yes, this is a gaming forum, and as such it boggles me that Schild either honestly doesn't understand, or at best won't take seriously (I hope that's it), that a lot of people like the Wii who won't get anything else. No buyer's remorse, no regret. They're doing what Margalis suggested; got what they enjoy. And Schild is right behind him, shitting on that statement for people not buying up all three. I said he needs to get out more not because he needs to game less (even if he might), but because he needs to get it through his head that other people aren't him. These days it's not Buy All Three Systems. These days, it's If You Buy A System And Aren't Sure You Like Gaming, You Will Probably Want A Wii. Because hey, it's got lots of family friendly stuff, has a friendly/fun controller, plus just enough of other genres to keep those sorts of people interested. Soon as you point that out though he reacts like you shot his kitten and fed it into a lawn mower. Quote Owning all consoles has less to do with not getting out enough than it does 1) not being a cheap bastard and 2) going where the games are at. They all demand attention. It's not being cheap. It's that most people don't care. He does, I guess you do, and I do. That's fine. Most people don't. Nor do any of the consoles demand attention. Family and friends demand attention. Gaming is an affordable and enjoyable luxury. Don't confuse them. Edit: spelling Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: HaemishM on February 20, 2007, 10:04:55 AM Owning all consoles has less to do with not getting out enough than it does 1) not being a cheap bastard No, I'm going to have to be snotty here about this one. $600/$500 is TOO FUCKING MUCH. That's not being a cheap bastard, it's just too fucking much for a console. Period. It's turning a console into a luxury item, and when you talk about owning all 3, schild is on fucking crack. Buying all 3 of the previous generations of consoles, if bought at release, would cost a grand total of $800. This generation? It costs $1250, and that's not even counting the cost of an HDTV to really get the full effect of 2 of those consoles. I mean, seriously, do you honestly think that's an acceptable price point for anyone? Do you really not understand that that's a fucking insane price increase from one generation to the next, one that is pretty unprecedented in the history of the industry? You are talking about the cost of one good computer, one smallish HDTV, a downpayment on a car. People who have families, kids, girlfriends, wives just don't toss that much money down the drain on fucking consoles, or much else, at least not without financing the shit and paying more on the interest. Middle class folks don't have that kind of disposable income. It's not being a cheap bastard and fuck you for claiming it is. Especially not when you consider that games run $50-$60 eacb on those systems. A cheap bastard won't buy a Wii at Target because it's $249.99 but will buy one at Wal-Mart because it's $249.47. A cheap bastard is not someone who balks at a $600 console. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: CmdrSlack on February 20, 2007, 10:23:00 AM Also, some of us "cheap bastards" have more important stuff to spend our cash on....like kids and mortgages. I ended up with an Xbox and PS2 in the last generation. I bought the Xbox for KOTOR. At the time, I was single and a student. Now I'm not single. I have a kid. I will be buying a Wii if I can ever find one. I am sure that I'll eventually get a 360, but it may be a refurb and it won't be for a while.
Maybe all three consoles deserve some attention for having nifty games, but that doesn't really mandate their purchase. Perhaps if you want to call yourself a hardcore gamer (hardkore?) but not otherwise. I'm fully aware of all three new consoles, yet I don't own any of 'em. They have my attention, otherwise I wouldn't post in threads like this. Fact of the matter is that I'll likely never own all three. It really pisses me off, because Sony's cockblock pricing is what's keeping me from buying what I consider to be the best brand of console. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: schild on February 20, 2007, 10:35:54 AM The people here aren't most people.
The people here are here because they like gaming. The Super Nintendo was $250 when it came out and I'm pretty sure the Genesis was $300. Super Nintendo RPGs cost $69.99 at release. Final Fantasy 6 or Chrono Trigger anyone? I don't expect people around here to buy all 3 consoles because I did. I do expect them not to bitch and moan at all because they can't afford to or don't think they're "gamer" enough. That's just a crock of shit. Edit: Oh, I understand why people like the Wii. I understand why they have no remorse - hell, it's a new system. Even Stray is feeling the hurt with the PS3. It just took a while. What kills me is that people don't remember how shitty the N64 and Gamecube libraries were. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: schild on February 20, 2007, 10:42:38 AM Really, I could care less what people buy. But people knocked me for buying a 360 and then a PS3 at launch because OMG THERE ARE NO GAMEZ. Look at you fuckers with your Wii. Who's the jackass now? Now I have a 360 with a shitload of games and a cheap Blu-Ray player. You have a white box that played Zelda once and a bunch of half-assed party games.
Edit: I have that white box also. So at least I have some perspective. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Roac on February 20, 2007, 11:19:03 AM The people here aren't most people. The people here are here because they like gaming. No, most people come here to bitch about gaming. Anyone who pipes up and says they like some specific game gets assraped. Just look at you and the Wii; you can't stand letting people talk about how they like it. You get your kicks by shitting on them. You're still doing it. That's fine, it's your site and all, but don't bullshit about it. Quote The Super Nintendo was $250 when it came out and I'm pretty sure the Genesis was $300. Closer to $200 for both. Considering inflation, that's roughly $300 today. Here (http://cache.gizmodo.com/images/2006/05/relative.gif) is a decent pic showing relative values (Unadjusted (http://cache.gizmodo.com/images/2006/05/absolute.gif) values). However, the SNES also came with Super Mario World, whereas the PS3 and 360 come with... just the console. So you can take $50-60 off the SNES price if you want to do a tighter comparison, which puts you at $200-225 in today's money. Quote What kills me is that people don't remember how shitty the N64 and Gamecube libraries were. It isn't that people forget (although some do), but that at $600, you better fucking have a GOOD experience. The Wii is less than half the cost. It's targeted for more casual players, so the games you do get are likely to last longer in relative terms even if they're about the same in absolute terms. But hey, even if the buyer is the sort who will burn through the Wii library before some of the new titles comes out it isn't a huge deal, because they can buy a 360 AND a Wii for almost the same price as a 360. The 360 has a good library at the moment, is much cheaper than the PS3, comperable graphics, and better online components. Dropping $600 on something and admitting that there is anything shitty about the purchase is just wrong. The reason it's shitty is because anyone dropping that much on a console is likely to play the hell out of it. It's not wrong on the Wii because a) it's way less cash, and b) people just don't play as much on it. They don't want to, not becuase they dislike it, but because they're not that "hardkore". They like gaming on a Wii, but they like other things too, whether that be another console or another hobby. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: HaemishM on February 20, 2007, 11:20:27 AM I own 2 games for the Wii. That's more games than I owned for my X-Box in the same time frame, and I bought that one years after release. I've played to completion 2 other Wii games (rentals), played 2 others that weren't great, and I currently have 3 VC games on the system. I'm not feeling the drought of games for the Wii, at all. I owned a total of 7 GameCube games (still own 4 of them), and RE4 alone was worth the price of admission. No, there hasn't been a new Wii release since Super Swing Golf that I want, but there are at least 3 games in Quarter 1 I wouldn't mind owning (Tiger Woods, Prince of Persia and Medal of Honor Vanguard) or at least renting.
I don't buy the PS3 because I refuse to pay that much for a console. Period. It's too expensive. Luckily, it's made easier by the fact that there's really nothing on the system I give a shit about either. I'll look at the 360 when they decrease the price. Oh, and ZOMG, someone's making a Zorro game for the Wii. Swashbuckling swordfighting 4tw. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: lovecraft on February 20, 2007, 11:33:48 AM If I wanted a visceral feel of playing tennis, I'd play tennis. Ditto golf, etc. I play games because I want to sit on my couch and not do stuff. If I want to do stuff, I do stuff. Whatever. That killer topspin shot not even he could explain? We call that exploting AI. I have known a dozens of guys who are total jocks, athletically inclined, whatever, who still play Madden. Go fig. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Margalis on February 20, 2007, 01:28:13 PM I can't play Tennis now that it is 20 degrees outside with a 3 inch sheet of ice on the ground...
Anyway knocking someone for buying any system is kind of silly. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Yegolev on February 20, 2007, 01:39:12 PM Bushido Blade? Whoa, whoa, whoa. First of all, do any of you fuckers remember Bushido Blade 2? Second, if you make a game like that using the Wiimote, it won't be Bushido Blade any more than Bushido Blade 2 or Super Monkey Ball was Bushido Blade. The best thing that could happen is if someone simply updated the graphics; no added "modes" or "characters" or "haptic motion-sensitive sound-emitting ergonomic fresh-scent HID".
Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Margalis on February 20, 2007, 03:12:51 PM Apparently Sonic for the Wii looks pretty good and plays better than the other next-gen versions.
Of course, it is still a Sonic game...the last truly good one was probably SA1 for DC no? Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: stray on February 20, 2007, 03:58:16 PM Oh, and ZOMG, someone's making a Zorro game for the Wii. Swashbuckling swordfighting 4tw. That could be cool. I might be the only guy on earth who prefers the rapier and dueling tradition over Japan's. It's also a sport I'm not too shabby at. Though Zorro himself isn't even close to as cool as Sanjuro. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: stray on February 20, 2007, 05:08:58 PM It's not wrong on the Wii because a) it's way less cash, and b) people just don't play as much on it. They don't want to, not becuase they dislike it, but because they're not that "hardkore". They like gaming on a Wii, but they like other things too, whether that be another console or another hobby. Nintendo needs people who buy at least 20 games. They will live or die by that kind of customer (the very customer who will also buy that many games on other systems as well). Not some guy or gal who liked Wii Sports and then goes about their way and shoves the console under their bed. Why even talk about them here? That's the kind of crap that should be in a NYTimes article. Not here. This is a gamer's market, and nothing is going to change that. [EDIT] Also, everyone has other hobbies. Don't be silly. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Big Gulp on February 20, 2007, 06:04:55 PM It's targeted for more casual players, so the games you do get are likely to last longer in relative terms even if they're about the same in absolute terms. By casual players I assume you mean "children and non-gamers". That's who is being targetted here, not people like us. Nintendo has fully adopted the lame-ass party game as it's money machine. It's working very well for them, but I don't see them actually doing much to target real, catass gamers. Right now those types of gamers who own Wii's are still mollified because it's a new system and all they see ahead of them is possibility. I personally see a whole bunch of Warioware clones with the occasional crazy, innovative game coming from Capcom. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Margalis on February 20, 2007, 06:44:15 PM God, you guys really don't get tired of repeating the same points over and over and over and over again do you?
Yeah, the Wii has a lot of garbage party games right now. And the PS3 has a lot of garbage games in general. (Although now VF5 is out, but I know you "hardcore gamers" prefer DOA because DOA is really hardcore :roll:) Seriously, how long can you guys go on with: "I like this system better." "Well I like this other system better!" Oh rlly? This is quite an exciting discussion. You guys look like retards. This is Mac vs. PC territory. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: stray on February 20, 2007, 07:13:22 PM "I like this system better." "Well I like this other system better!" Oh rlly? This is quite an exciting discussion. You guys look like retards. This is Mac vs. PC territory. You're reading way too much into this. I already said I like the Wii. Like a couple dozen times now. If I'm repeating the same thing over and over again, it's that. Just because I disregard the so called "casual gamer" doesn't mean I dislike the Wii. Or has it gotten to the point that both of those things are the same? Quote (Although now VF5 is out, but I know you "hardcore gamers" prefer DOA because DOA is really hardcore :roll:) Where the heck did that come from? Everyone knows VF is the best 3D fighter, and "hardcore" is still Capcom to this day. DOA is for the titties. [EDIT] Quote And the PS3 has a lot of garbage games in general. More like a ridiculously small amount of mediocre games, and one fantastic game. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Roac on February 21, 2007, 06:12:44 AM Nintendo needs people who buy at least 20 games. They will live or die by that kind of customer (the very customer who will also buy that many games on other systems as well). Not some guy or gal who liked Wii Sports and then goes about their way and shoves the console under their bed. Who is shoving it under the bed? The people I know who've bought one *are* getting other games. Zelda alone has (or had) something like an 80% attachment rate. Wii Sports is just the gateway drug for Nintendo. Also, who the hell is buying 20 games per console? Just looking at the PS2 we've got 115 million consoles sold, with 1.2 billion games sold, so you're looking at on average around 10 games per console. Original PS is less, at around 9 per console. Gamecube was slightly less than either, with 189m games and 20.9m consoles. They're doing quite well without your figure; Nintendo just upped their profit estimates by 20%. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: stray on February 21, 2007, 07:41:05 AM Just looking at the PS2 we've got 115 million consoles sold, with 1.2 billion games sold, so you're looking at on average around 10 games per console. Something closer to the truth would be that casuals buy as little as less than 10. The others are buying 20, 30, and more. Just the fact that you could even say it has a 10 per average across that many systems shows how many hardcore customers there really are (i.e. that's a lot of hardcore players picking up the slack for casuals). Secondly, it's nothing to compare the Wii with. The PS2 is a system with both a large hardcore fanbase, as well as a casual one. Nintendo, on the other hand, is banking a lot on just casuals. Nintendo could very well sell as many units as the PS2, but if they hold on to that casual philosophy (and I hope they don't), I can guarantee that the number of games sold won't even be close. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Stephen Zepp on February 21, 2007, 08:24:17 AM Quick comment now that the Wii is out, etc, etc:
Developers "aren't spending the time to make graphics better" because the Wii graphics technology is several generations old. Developing for the Wii requires a very smart set of design constraints from the beginning: A) Spend most of your development budget meeting out dated graphics capabilities to get that extra 5% of shiney. B) Spend most of your development budget leveraging Wii strengths to sell your game. Min/Maxxers should certainly understand this--hell, you created the idea: accept the mins, and maximize the maxxes. You aren't ever going to make even a highly polished Wii game look like an un-optimized XB360/PS3 game...so focus on what you can do better. Early on when we heard about what the Wii dev kits had hardware wise, pretty much our entire dev side of the house said "eww, that's gonna suck...hope the controller lives up to expectations".... Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Roac on February 21, 2007, 08:38:48 AM Secondly, it's nothing to compare the Wii with. The PS2 is a system with both a large hardcore fanbase, as well as a casual one. Nintendo, on the other hand, is banking a lot on just casuals. Nintendo could very well sell as many units as the PS2, but if they hold on to that casual philosophy (and I hope they don't), I can guarantee that the number of games sold won't even be close. That's why I also included GC sales. For 6th generation, it's a difference of about 1 game/console, or ~10% fewer games/console. Of course, the PS2 games library was also many, many times larger than the GC library so certainly that's helped. It isn't going just casual though. I don't think grandma is playing Zelda, and neither will Metroid. Then there are the shooter ports already there and soon to be there. Plus other exclusives/ports like Midnight, Sadness, RE, Orb, Prince of Persia, Manhunt 2, etc. It would be an easy bet to say that the library is going to wind up far more casual than either the PS3 or 360, but Nintendo has never really cutout hardcore players. Anyone who really likes mature/hardcore games is unlikely to be satisfied with just the Wii, but there's still going to be a lot to like. And if the Wii has similar sales points as the GC with hardcore gamers, but also sells crates of units to casuals, they're still comming out ahead. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Roac on February 21, 2007, 08:45:47 AM Min/Maxxers should certainly understand this--hell, you created the idea: accept the mins, and maximize the maxxes. You aren't ever going to make even a highly polished Wii game look like an un-optimized XB360/PS3 game...so focus on what you can do better. I don't think there are any complaints about the Wii not rising to the standard of the 360 or PS3; that was a known from the outset by just about everyone. If anyone didn't know, they are also the type that wouldn't be aware even after seeing/playing the Wii. The complaints are that for some games it looks like devs aren't even trying to polish at all, let alone "highly" polish. A few titles actually look underrated even for the DS, let alone the Wii. We know it can look nice, because there are games which do, but also several that really, really don't. It's like several guys figured they didn't even need to try and make things look alright. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Jeff Kelly on February 21, 2007, 08:59:47 AM hope the controller lives up to expectations".... does it? Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: schild on February 21, 2007, 10:50:02 AM hope the controller lives up to expectations".... does it?Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Margalis on February 21, 2007, 11:43:16 AM When did I sign up for the Vault?
I'll say it again: you guys all sound like retards. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: schild on February 21, 2007, 11:54:45 AM Wrong. People on the vault don't have the perspective to make these opinions and do anyway. I've probably played more Wii games than anyone else on this board and I really would have liked it to kick ass.
But there aren't enough games. Honestly, I'm very close to taking it out of the videogame sector and comparing it to boardgames. I mean, that's who it's in competition with, right? It just happens to be sold at EBGamestop. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Trippy on February 21, 2007, 02:31:12 PM Wrong. People on the vault don't have the perspective to make these opinions and do anyway. I've probably played more Wii games than anyone else on this board and I really would have liked it to kick ass. Fortunately for Nintendo the general public disagrees with you making the Wii the top selling console (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070221/tc_nm/videogames_sales_dc_1) in the US in January.Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: naum on February 21, 2007, 03:52:11 PM Quote Fortunately for Nintendo the general public disagrees with you making the Wii the top selling console (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070221/tc_nm/videogames_sales_dc_1) in the US in January. Surprised to see XBOX 360 not selling, and explains the tall stacks of XBOX 360 boxes at retailers… As far as games go, maybe because of my already packed schedule, I've not even dented the limited Wii game suite of my own. Played Wii sports extensively, a little of Zelda, Wario Ware, Elebits and some Trauma Center, but haven't even popped in Madden 07 or done a VC game yet… Wii is going to be very successful -- it's a crossover hit, and not because of the graphics, but the controller deal… Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Margalis on February 21, 2007, 04:02:26 PM ZOMG NO IT SUX!!
Continue on...we can make this 50 pages of the same 2 points, I know it! Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: schild on February 21, 2007, 04:15:18 PM Wrong. People on the vault don't have the perspective to make these opinions and do anyway. I've probably played more Wii games than anyone else on this board and I really would have liked it to kick ass. Fortunately for Nintendo the general public disagrees with you making the Wii the top selling console (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070221/tc_nm/videogames_sales_dc_1) in the US in January.Top 10 SKUs 1. 360 LOST PLANET: EXTREME CONDITION 329k 2. PS2 GUITAR HERO 2 W/GUITAR 224k 3. 360 GEARS OF WAR 212k 4. WII WARIOWARE: SMOOTH MOVES 201k <-- 5. WII LEGEND OF ZELDA: TWILIGHT PRINCESS 189k <-- 6. PS2 MADDEN NFL 07 156k 7. GCN LEGEND OF ZELDA: TWILIGHT PRINCESS 144k Gamecube! Only 40k less than the Wii one. I mean, comeon. 8. PS3 RESISTANCE: FALL OF MAN 144k 9. 360 TOM CLANCY'S RAINBOW SIX: VEGAS 135k 10. NDS NEW SUPER MARIO BROS 125k What? Like I said, it's going to come down to games. And just for reference: Playstation 2 299k, 37.4mm Xbox --, 14.5mm Gamecube 34k, 11.7mm Xbox 360 294k, 4.8mm Playstation 3 244k, 937k Wii 436k, 1.5mm GBA 179k, 35.3mm Nintendo DS 239k, 9.4mm PSP 211k, 6.9mm And Margalis, you're gonna have to fuckin cope with it for 5 years. You can go post the same shit in EVERY THREAD in the MMORPG forum. But you aren't. So simma down. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: schild on February 21, 2007, 04:18:20 PM I just noticed the PSP closing the gap on monthly sales with the DS. I wonder why. Boosted by strong PS2 and PS3 sales maybe?
Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Sairon on February 21, 2007, 04:26:43 PM I don't know if I should be impressed by those Wii sales considering that nintendos big gun already has been fired, ie Zelda, when PS3 hasn't released any of their big ones yet.
Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: stray on February 21, 2007, 05:17:08 PM Margalis, this is a pretty civil discussion by most standards. Are you reading a completely different thread?
I would really, really like to talk about consoles just once, without anyone coming in and interpreting just the intent of wanting to talk about consoles to be some kind of attack on them. Just one console thread where nobody gets hurt, and where nobody pops in and makes occassional "this thread is retarded" one liners. I mean, come on. It's bad enough that few at this site even want to talk about these games at all. At least allow the ones who do the small luxury of as little interference as possible. Would that be OK? Or are we that retarded to you that we can't even TALK? I don't understand, man. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Big Gulp on February 21, 2007, 05:46:56 PM I mean, come on. It's bad enough that few at this site even want to talk about these games at all. At least allow the ones who do the small luxury of as little interference as possible. Would that be OK? Or are we that retarded to you that we can't even TALK? I don't understand, man. Exactly. I've got a massive gripe list for all three of these consoles, and enjoy bitching in general. That okay with you, Margalis? Wii - Lack of HD support - Lack of real online play (nope, the convoluted number system they have set up doesn't cut it) - The Wiimote appears to be sort of half-assed, considering that for the most part it doesn't translate 1-1 movement offscreen to movement onscreen. - Fixation on party/"cutesy" games. Xbox 360 - Crippling, persistent hardware problems. Upgrade your QA department, fucksticks! - Live Arcade sucks. Root Beer Tapper anyone? Cut the dross, and start releasing games quicker. Scrap your weekly release cycle, already. - Lack of HD space. PS3 - Nickel and diming the consumer, ie, seperate HDMI/component cables need purchasing. When you market your console as an HD monster this is inexcusable. - Kinda-sorta implementing online play. Better than the Wii, leagues behind the 360 still. - Unnecessarily high price point due to Sony leveraging itself into the Blu-Ray market. - Lack of games, or more specifically, lack of exclusive games due to corporate hubris. This is a self-inflicted wound that should never have happened. They let MS eat their lunch. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: schild on February 21, 2007, 05:49:12 PM I'm so used to the nickle and diming since the dreamcast era that I don't really notice that sort of shit anymore.
Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Margalis on February 21, 2007, 07:02:09 PM I don't mind console talk, my problem is every console thread devolves into "which console I like best" with the same two points repeated over and over again.
How about mentioning what games people actually find fun for the different systems...kind of the point of games right? People who own the PS3 - what are you playing? Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: schild on February 21, 2007, 09:04:01 PM Virtua Fighter 5.
flOw. Tekken 5: Dark Resurrection. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: stray on February 21, 2007, 09:06:23 PM I don't mind console talk, my problem is every console thread devolves into "which console I like best" with the same two points repeated over and over again. How about mentioning what games people actually find fun for the different systems...kind of the point of games right? People who own the PS3 - what are you playing? Well, if it makes you feel better, I've had more fun on the 360 and even the Wii than I have on the PS3 so far. Though I've played neither extensively (probably wouldn't make much of a difference though). Comparing it to the 360 isn't fair though. It's obviously better. It's been out longer. As for Nintendo, I'd happily take Zelda over Resistance right now. Resistance is a great game, don't get me wrong, but I'm pretty burned out on shooters at the moment. I played through it, I'll give it the praise it deserves, but it wasn't something that really appealed to me personally. I've had more fun moments playing Wii Sports and Zelda on a friend's system. I also have Project 8, MUA, Ridge Racer 7, and had NBA 2K7. None are bad games, but nothing unique to the system or special in any significant way. I've had more fun with Rogue Galaxy (PS2) and playing through older Capcom games than any of those. I got fucked all day trying to find VF5, so I can't talk about it yet... Blu-Ray movies are cool, but I suppose that would be cheating if I mentioned that (or is it?). All that being said, making a judgement on games is kind of premature at this point. I still think talking about the systems, in and of themselves, is a valid point of discussion. They all have their unique schtick, it's sort of clear what direction they're taking in the near future, etc... And as far as future games go, we can all get an idea of each system's 2007 lineup. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: CmdrSlack on February 22, 2007, 12:53:25 AM Quote flOw So is it any different than the version I have on my hard drive? I mean, if the only difference is that it's on the PS3 (and then, I guess potentially on a bigger screen), is that really a shining endorsement for the system? Maybe that was your point. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: stray on February 22, 2007, 01:10:30 AM I don't think he was endorsing anything. Margalis asked what he was playing. He answered.
Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: naum on February 22, 2007, 01:32:41 AM I don't know if I should be impressed by those Wii sales considering that nintendos big gun already has been fired, ie Zelda, when PS3 hasn't released any of their big ones yet. Well, considering that the Wii is still unavailable from online retailers like Amazon and bestbuy.com, along with that fact that the units that are shipped are stilling being scoffed up in a snap, and the demand is still greater than the supply, don't know if I'd pronounce that just yet. Best Buy is still struggling to keep Nintendo Wii in stock (http://ce.seekingalpha.com/article/27137). And yet, it was the biggest selling console last month… Another sad Wii story (http://blog.washingtonpost.com/thecheckout/2007/02/post_16.html?nav=rss_blog)… Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Sairon on February 22, 2007, 04:30:10 AM I don't know if I should be impressed by those Wii sales considering that nintendos big gun already has been fired, ie Zelda, when PS3 hasn't released any of their big ones yet. Well, considering that the Wii is still unavailable from online retailers like Amazon and bestbuy.com, along with that fact that the units that are shipped are stilling being scoffed up in a snap, and the demand is still greater than the supply, don't know if I'd pronounce that just yet. Best Buy is still struggling to keep Nintendo Wii in stock (http://ce.seekingalpha.com/article/27137). And yet, it was the biggest selling console last month… Another sad Wii story (http://blog.washingtonpost.com/thecheckout/2007/02/post_16.html?nav=rss_blog)… I thought they had that shit sorted already hehe, most of my mates who gets a turn on by the Wii has managed to get them now :-) Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: CmdrSlack on February 22, 2007, 09:06:35 AM I don't think he was endorsing anything. Margalis asked what he was playing. He answered. Uh, thanks there, hoss. It's a valid question, is flOw on the PS3 any different than the version that is/was out there for free? Aside from an indie game making good, I really don't see the point of putting it on a console in the first place. Good for them that there's exposure, but it doesn't seem like it would require a PS3 to run, ya know? My question to Schild was moreso: So yeah, are those three games really worth it or does it de-shittify the current PS3 library? ETA -- Hence my saying, "Maybe that was your point." But hey, way to clarify things for me there... Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: stray on February 22, 2007, 09:19:43 AM But hey, way to clarify things for me there... Is there something wrong with that? Why the attitude? I'm not trying to fight you, just trying to help you out here. You were making this about "shining endorsements" when all Margalis asked was what games we were having fun with. Your question came off like Schild was making a big deal about flOw or something. And yes, it's the same game. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: schild on February 22, 2007, 09:23:25 AM Of course flOw doesn't require a PS3 to run. Shit, it doesn't require a Pentium 2 and you said you had the FLV on your hard drive.
I don't worry about games de-shittifying a library. See, that's the thing about game systems. Once a library isn't shit, it never is again. For example, the Gamecube, despite Smash Bros and Resident Evil 4, that library is Shit. There's no fixing it. It is not a system you buy because of a lot of games or any sort of notion like that, no, you buy it for one of two or three games and end up playing some other stuff. The PS2 library isn't shit, sure, there's 10x the number of games out for it - and a lot of that is shit, but I could give 50-150 reasons to BUY the system. And then you have a good 100-200 more games you could HAVE FUN with. Now, to answer the question, the PS3 is in it's first year. While some systems can have a strong launch (Dreamcast) and some can have bad launches (every Playstation system), I know that even the best launches can't tide someone over for a year, and most of the time that first year sucks balls. I've gotten over that and everyone knows damn well the PS3 won't have a shitty library when it's time to count the beans at the end of this generation. Hell, from the looks of it, after this Fall, the PS3 is going to have a shitload of reasons to be owned. But right now, it does a good job of being a next-gen PS2 - blu-ray and all. And yea, Virtua Fighter 5 is really fucking awesome. Edit: And no, Stray, it's not quite the same game. The PC version plays like a feature limited demo compared to the PS3 one. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Margalis on February 22, 2007, 11:39:00 AM VF5 *is* awesome. T5:DR on the other hand, while a good game, could easily have been a PS2 game.
Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: HaemishM on February 22, 2007, 12:03:50 PM It's not wrong on the Wii because a) it's way less cash, and b) people just don't play as much on it. They don't want to, not becuase they dislike it, but because they're not that "hardkore". They like gaming on a Wii, but they like other things too, whether that be another console or another hobby. Nintendo needs people who buy at least 20 games. What do you base that on? Unlike Sony or Microsoft, every console with copy of Wii Sports the Big N sells, it makes a profit on. Now, would they like every person to buy 20 games over the life of the console? Sure. But it isn't an absolute necessity, unlike the other 2. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: stray on February 22, 2007, 12:13:14 PM VF5 *is* awesome. T5:DR on the other hand, while a good game, could easily have been a PS2 game. Just picked up my copy. Won't get around to it until tonight though. That being said, awesome or not, I put it in the same category as Wii Sports actually. I'll have a good time unlocking things by myself and all, but this is the type of game you definitely want friends around for (and it's too bad there isn't an online mode...but...that'd probably end up pissing me off anyways. Heh). Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Yegolev on February 22, 2007, 12:24:22 PM I just noticed the PSP closing the gap on monthly sales with the DS. I wonder why. Boosted by strong PS2 and PS3 sales maybe? Well, there's the PS1 emulation thing. There's also the Ratchet & Clank for PSP which is actually giving me the urge to buy one (fuckers). Maybe some people are getting one so they can milk their $600 PS1/2 emulator for all they can. Or could be that they already have a DS and have gotten $150 back on their tax returns. Theories are fun. Re. Cube library: Eternal Darkness. Paper Mario: TTYD. Metroid Prime. Not Double Dash, though. Wind Waker causes arguments but it was a solid game. I'd even say Baten Kaitos, but I don't think I'm near the median on that one. But yeah, that list is too short no matter how you do it. As for what I, a PS3 owner, am playing: Final Fantasy XII and Rogue Galaxy as primary. Backup rotation consists of Shin Megami Tensei: Digital Devil Saga, Okami, Metal Saga, Children of Mana. I will probably start up Sam + Max: Situation Comedy soon; I'm a bit behind there. I am also supposed to play more Planescape but making time is hard. Considering how far I have not gotten in VF4:Evo or Tekken 5, I will probably skip VF5 and Tekken 5: Subtitle unless something wacky happens. I don't have people coming by to play against, which takes out a great deal of the fun. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Velorath on February 22, 2007, 01:26:02 PM This isn't Genesis vs. SNES. You're right, it isn't. In that era buying both systems didn't cost me over a grand, and they both managed to have libraries that justified purchases. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: HaemishM on February 22, 2007, 01:36:33 PM I'm mostly playing FIFA07 on the X-Box because that's all I have time for on consoles. A full game of Madden on the Wii will take me 1.5 hours and lately, I just don't have the time. I do manage to squeeze in some VC'ed Contra 3 (boy do I suck at this game), Street Fighter 2 or Streets of Rage lately, and if I have an hour or so, some Zelda.
But now that I'm playing WoW and the UEFA Champions League is back in full swing, my console time is reduced. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: CmdrSlack on February 22, 2007, 03:48:02 PM Is there something wrong with that? Why the attitude? I'm not trying to fight you, just trying to help you out here. Sorry man, I really shouldn't be posting in the mornings. ETA -- I wasn't trying to really do much but ask a question in an indirect manner. Check your PMs as well. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: CmdrSlack on February 22, 2007, 03:56:58 PM Quote I'm mostly playing FIFA07 on the X-Box because that's all I have time for on consoles. So how are the controls for Xbox sports games in comparison to the PS2? I need more games to justify my Xbox purchase. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: schild on February 22, 2007, 03:58:39 PM You want to justify the Xbox? Mod it.
Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: CmdrSlack on February 22, 2007, 04:05:59 PM You want to justify the Xbox? Mod it. I'm not sure if my soldering skills are up to snuff...unless I totally misunderstand the required skills. I haven't fooled with modding electronics beyond building a computer since I used to sell "chingers" in college. A chinger, of course, being the little black box that used to fool pay phones into thinking you were paying for long distance, direct dialed calls. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: stray on February 22, 2007, 08:52:31 PM Quote I'm mostly playing FIFA07 on the X-Box because that's all I have time for on consoles. So how are the controls for Xbox sports games in comparison to the PS2? I need more games to justify my Xbox purchase. I think controls are a matter of preference. Schemes are pretty much the same, so it's just about feel. Sports games on the Xbox are better for other reasons though. Slightly better graphics, more storage space (kind of nifty if you like creating a lot of franchise stuff in Madden), and....Some other little things that the hdd makes possible. Like in the 2K Sports games, for instance, a halftime highlight reel is in full motion, while on the PS2, it's just screencaps. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: schild on February 23, 2007, 01:51:29 AM You want to justify the Xbox? Mod it. I'm not sure if my soldering skills are up to snuff...unless I totally misunderstand the required skills. I haven't fooled with modding electronics beyond building a computer since I used to sell "chingers" in college. A chinger, of course, being the little black box that used to fool pay phones into thinking you were paying for long distance, direct dialed calls. Soft Mod. Google it. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: HaemishM on February 23, 2007, 08:25:04 AM Quote I'm mostly playing FIFA07 on the X-Box because that's all I have time for on consoles. So how are the controls for Xbox sports games in comparison to the PS2? I need more games to justify my Xbox purchase. I originally bought my X-Box over a PS2 because of sports games, specifically the graphics being a bit better on the X-Box than the PS2. The controls are just fine if you like the XBox controllers more than the PS2 controller, which I do. I never have liked the placement of the analog sticks on the PS2, whereas the S-controller on the X-Box has always felt more natural to me. The hard drive certainly helps like Stray said, not having to fuck with memory cards. Some of the sports games allow custom soundtracks with imported music; it was cool to hear the opening strains of Tom Sawyer when my field goal kicker hammered one through in NFL 2k5. YMMV Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Merusk on February 25, 2007, 04:52:00 PM Y'know what? Fuck the Wii. Nearly 4 months later and I still get laughed at when calling around about it. I'm going to buy trees with the money instead. :-P
Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: stray on February 25, 2007, 09:01:19 PM Doesn't it break your heart that there are resting homes full of 80 year olds out there that have a Wii, and you don't? :-D
Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: schild on February 25, 2007, 09:04:08 PM And they're still playing the same launch game all the other Wii owners are playing.
OH, SICK BURN. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Trippy on February 25, 2007, 09:52:25 PM And they're still playing the same launch game all the other Wii owners are playing. And they are enjoying it (http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=6191), unlike some people.OH, SICK BURN. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: schild on February 25, 2007, 10:14:49 PM If I had absolutely NOTHING better to do, I could probably take the Atari Jaguar around to some retirement homes and entertain them long enough to get a decent shot and some smiles and write up a fluff piece.
Seriously, this sort of news doesn't mean shit to me. My post was completely in jest. Though, that article does just further my hypothesis that the Wii is competing with the board game industry. "Hey, it's canasata saturday!" "Shut the fuck up, we're playing Wii Sports." Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: stray on February 25, 2007, 10:26:36 PM Yep.
But before I say it, I do think it's neat that this is happening. It's just.... Well.... Screw old people. Screw all casuals. This is a karaoke machine to them. They are non factors to what gamers should be talking about. I hate to see people use this (or similar stories) as a means of saying how popular a console the Wii is. It's not a popular console to them. It's a popular toy. There is a strong attachment rate with Zelda, so that's encouraging -- actual gamers are buying the Wii too. I'd just like to keep it that way. I want to see it championed for GAMERS, not casuals. For gamers, this is bad press. Seriously. News like this actually gives Nintendo the wrong idea, and only encourages them to make more games for these casuals (and they won't even buy those). That means less Zeldas in the future. Even worse, it gives third parties the wrong impression too. That's the last thing you want. [edit] I get bitter just thinking about it. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: CmdrSlack on February 25, 2007, 10:43:52 PM For every person that gets added to the market due to an accessible system like the Wii, at least a few have to get converted to rabid poopsockers like the rest of us.
So that is a net gain for the industry. If the elderly don't, well, they're gonna die soon anyway, right? Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Calantus on February 26, 2007, 03:20:19 AM There is a strong attachment rate with Zelda, so that's encouraging -- actual gamers are buying the Wii too. I'd just like to keep it that way. I want to see it championed for GAMERS, not casuals. For gamers, this is bad press. Seriously. News like this actually gives Nintendo the wrong idea, and only encourages them to make more games for these casuals (and they won't even buy those). That means less Zeldas in the future. Even worse, it gives third parties the wrong impression too. That's the last thing you want. You mean you think games could start becoming more and more dumbed down and casual to serve the tastes of the mass market? Lol? That would never happen. Developers and publishers wouldn't sell out those who supported them for years just to make a buck. Yes, that should be in green. And yes it does annoy me too. Every time I hear people go on about Runescape and Habbo Hotel I just don't understand WTF the relevance has to me at all. It makes money? Yeah... so does Nike. It's just not relevant to me though. I want to know about video games, not simulators or electronic boardgames. Pointing it out for discussion is fine though, that's what we're here for. I don't want to give the impression I'm coming down on Trippy, it's just that my side of the discussion is going to be that we aren't 80 year olds in a home who have no interest in games in general. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Kageru on February 26, 2007, 05:09:09 AM I seriously dislike having to pay once for a high power computer (so I can get my MMORPG fix) and then again for a low power, lobotomized computer with crappy input options (thumbsticks blow). Nor am I impressed by HDTV specs, by computer standards that's last generations resolution, and I've little doubt the monitors are slower on the refresh. For me the only thing consoles offer are a locked environment to tie proprietary market manipulation too, and that's not something I want to support. Heck, the consoles are now so complex that they have all the hardware issues of computers. Have microsoft actually release a PC gaming hardware standard (as if the 360 isn't a computer, and they *own* PC gaming), and perhaps a small card to contain their ultimately futile attempts at copy protection, and you can dump all the 360's and PS3's into landfill for all I care. The wii (and PS2) work somewhat differently, because they are true consoles, a glorified elctronic toy for when you want to blow some time playing with friends or sitting at the TV. Of course the serious AV heads approach the matter differently. Since their money goes into massive screens, huge speakers and sub-woofers intense enough to register on earthquake monitors they want their investment maximized. And since the screens are low res and fuzzy, and a sofa is an apalling environment for computer peripherals like mice or keyboards, they're not interested in using the functions of a general purpose computer. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: stray on February 26, 2007, 05:24:44 AM I don't want to give the impression I'm coming down on Trippy, it's just that my side of the discussion is going to be that we aren't 80 year olds in a home who have no interest in games in general. Ah shit. I'm not trying to come down on Trippy either. Though it probably looks that way. I'm just following up from what he pointed out. I see more links like his all the time from other gaming sites. That's who I had in mind. And just the press in general. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: stray on February 26, 2007, 05:26:32 AM I seriously dislike having to pay once for a high power computer (so I can get my MMORPG fix) and then again for a low power, lobotomized computer with crappy input options (thumbsticks blow). Nor am I impressed by HDTV specs, by computer standards that's last generations resolution, and I've little doubt the monitors are slower on the refresh. For me the only thing consoles offer are a locked environment to tie proprietary market manipulation too, and that's not something I want to support. Heck, the consoles are now so complex that they have all the hardware issues of computers. Have microsoft actually release a PC gaming hardware standard (as if the 360 isn't a computer, and they *own* PC gaming), and perhaps a small card to contain their ultimately futile attempts at copy protection, and you can dump all the 360's and PS3's into landfill for all I care. Yeah. Hi. /waves The PC barely has any fucking games. In some cases, entire genres. Realize that. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Stephen Zepp on February 26, 2007, 05:35:14 AM Yep. But before I say it, I do think it's neat that this is happening. It's just.... Well.... Screw old people. Screw all casuals. This is a karaoke machine to them. They are non factors to what gamers should be talking about. I hate to see people use this (or similar stories) as a means of saying how popular a console the Wii is. It's not a popular console to them. It's a popular toy. There is a strong attachment rate with Zelda, so that's encouraging -- actual gamers are buying the Wii too. I'd just like to keep it that way. I want to see it championed for GAMERS, not casuals. For gamers, this is bad press. Seriously. News like this actually gives Nintendo the wrong idea, and only encourages them to make more games for these casuals (and they won't even buy those). That means less Zeldas in the future. Even worse, it gives third parties the wrong impression too. That's the last thing you want. [edit] I get bitter just thinking about it. I'm not trying to come down on anyone either, but what is it that makes you think that very console out there needs to be for you? (You in the plural sense, meaning gamers/hardcore gamers/etc). Here's a totally off the wall thought about why it's good that the Wii and Wii games are appealing to non-gamers: Who do you think it is that is supporting all this anti-game legislature? It's people that have never enjoyed games, and think that all games have to be fps shooters that include mass slaughter of things that move. If every movie ever made were all slasher/horror filled with blood and torture, you can be damn sure the industry would be tied down with all sorts of legislative acts, but broad capability of the industry has given "something for everyone". I don't watch disney flicks much, but the existence of disney flicks enhances my movie watching experiences, not lessens them. Why should every console out there be expected to meet the needs of the hardcore/"we want more xxx games" market segments? Just trying to point out a different viewpoint here, and again not coming down on anyone here, so all you haters out there take a pill :P Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Trippy on February 26, 2007, 05:39:56 AM I don't want to give the impression I'm coming down on Trippy, it's just that my side of the discussion is going to be that we aren't 80 year olds in a home who have no interest in games in general. Ah shit. I'm not trying to come down on Trippy either. Though it probably looks that way.I'm just following up from what he pointed out. I see more links like his all the time from other gaming sites. That's who I had in mind. And just the press in general. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Roac on February 26, 2007, 05:56:05 AM They are intentionally not trying to compete directly against Sony and Microsoft which means they are not targeting traditional console gamers with the Wii. We've known that since it was unveiled many months ago. We've known that since when? Nintendo was saying they didn't want to go hardcore with their system back in the NES days, leading to things like Mortal Kombat without blood splatters. While you still get some games like RE4, they have almost always been about younger and more casual play. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: stray on February 26, 2007, 05:58:25 AM I'm not trying to come down on anyone either, but what is it that makes you think that very console out there needs to be for you? (You in the plural sense, meaning gamers/hardcore gamers/etc). Here's a totally off the wall thought about why it's good that the Wii and Wii games are appealing to non-gamers: Who do you think it is that is supporting all this anti-game legislature? It's people that have never enjoyed games, and think that all games have to be fps shooters that include mass slaughter of things that move. If every movie ever made were all slasher/horror filled with blood and torture, you can be damn sure the industry would be tied down with all sorts of legislative acts, but broad capability of the industry has given "something for everyone". I don't watch disney flicks much, but the existence of disney flicks enhances my movie watching experiences, not lessens them. Why should every console out there be expected to meet the needs of the hardcore/"we want more xxx games" market segments? Just trying to point out a different viewpoint here, and again not coming down on anyone here, so all you haters out there take a pill :P The reason why I care is because I fear those casuals won't support the industry anywhere close to how gamers do. I would go so far as to say that I'd be surprised if they bought more than five games during a console's lifetime. Especially the majority of them. It's just a waste of money all around trying to appeal to these folks. In the end, they don't care. The only way I see a wide variety of people from all walks of life and ages playing games is twenty years from now --- When WE, the gamers of today, are old farts ourselves. It doesn't bother me -- I don't own any of the latest gen consoles. The fact remains, however, that Nintendo really doesn't care all that much about you guys anymore. They are intentionally not trying to compete directly against Sony and Microsoft which means they are not targeting traditional console gamers with the Wii. We've known that since it was unveiled many months ago. In one sense, I can see why they're doing it. They've pretty much fell on their ass taking the traditional approach. Something had to give. And believe it or not, I hope it somehow succeeds enough for them so they can be directly competitive next generation. I just hope it doesn't succeed in the sense that it completely changes the direction of the company by next generation. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: stray on February 26, 2007, 06:02:40 AM We've known that since when? Nintendo was saying they didn't want to go hardcore with their system back in the NES days, leading to things like Mortal Kombat without blood splatters. While you still get some games like RE4, they have almost always been about younger and more casual play. You're talking about a completely different "hardcore". Blood splattering has nothing to do with saying this is a gamer's market. This isn't about morals. And no, they were not a casual gaming company. Wtf are you talking about? They pretty much built the gaming industry as we know it. The NES and SNES were generalized, monster systems like the PS2. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: CmdrSlack on February 26, 2007, 06:36:23 AM Quote The reason why I care is because I fear those casuals won't support the industry anywhere close to how gamers do. I would go so far as to say that I'd be surprised if they bought more than five games during a console's lifetime. Especially the majority of them. It's just a waste of money all around trying to appeal to these folks. In the end, they don't care. The only way I see a wide variety of people from all walks of life and ages playing games is twenty years from now --- When WE, the gamers of today, are old farts ourselves. First of all, you have no idea what motivates the people you're trying to discount. Second of all, you assume a LOT about so-called gamers. I own 5 xbox titles and about nineteen PS2 titles. Supporting the industry is all well and good, but people don't have to be invested to the point of being serious catasses to be a positive effect on the industry. Not only do you have the "make games seem less like teh debil" aspect that Stephen Zepp mentions, but it makes games seem less "pasty fatass in mom's basement." IMO, that's a good thing. I got over being part of a hardcore niche of people back in high school and college when I was so fucking punk rock that I couldn't get out of bed in the morning. Also, I don't get how you can discount "normal" people in one breath and then acknowledge that many of the gamers ("we") that you value are from divergent walks of life, are likely relatively normal, and are part of the normative trend in gaming. We're just being followed by later adopters now. They're not necessarily the phillistine hordes seeking to ruin all that is holy and sacred about gaming. That ship has long since sailed, IMO. The magic circle has been gone for a looooong time. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: stray on February 26, 2007, 06:41:39 AM Too much coffee again, I see? :-D
Never said they were Phillistine hordes. In fact, I think it's cute. What am I saying is that they are not worth marketing too on this level. Let alone championing. People who buy a Wii for Wii Sports will not go much beyond that. People who buy a DS for Brain Age or Nintendogs will not go much beyond that. If at all. It's not about normal vs pasty fatasses in their mom's basement. There are plenty of normal gamers and plenty of abnormal non gamers. It's irrelevant. I'm just talking about consumer types. And gaming companies need a specific kind to sustain themselves. There's too much money involved. Even for some of the simplest of games. [EDIT - needed to add this] Quote First of all, you have no idea what motivates the people you're trying to discount. Second of all, you assume a LOT about so-called gamers. The only thing I'm assuming about gamers is that they BUY GAMES. Simple as that. They don't have to own the entire corpus of the Final Fantasy series to be gamers or be subscribers to all rags -- but gamers do tend to actually be interested in the whole fucking thing at the very least. Gamers don't have to play 24/7 and be catasses, but they do acknowledge it's a part of their recreation time. Gamers go to stores for the express purpose of buying games. A casual would have to be reminded of it -- and then convinced it's even worth doing at all. Gamers buy across a variety of genres, and wonder at the future potential in their systems ("I hope this is coming soon", "I can't wait for this", etc., etc..). A casual is happy with the game they bought, and doesn't even care or anticipate future possibilities at all. At any given time, they are far more content than a gamer. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Trippy on February 26, 2007, 07:08:13 AM What am I saying is that they are not worth marketing too on this level. Let alone championing. People who buy a Wii for Wii Sports will not go much beyond that. People who buy a DS for Brain Age or Nintendogs will not go much beyond that. If at all. So? Nintendo has sold well over 8.5 million copies of Brain Age (probably well past 9 million by now). That's more copies than any of the Zeldas (though not all the Zeldas combined). Nintendogs is somewhere over 8.5 million as well. And there are a helluva lot more of "them" than "us" out there so even if it turns out they won't buy as many titles as we do that's still a humongous barely tapped market that only Nintendo is focused on right now and so far it's paying off for them.Edit: is not if Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: CmdrSlack on February 26, 2007, 07:24:00 AM Quote Too much coffee again, I see? Naw, I thought that was pretty non-aggro, actually. Heck, I've had a whopping three hours of sleep! :-D You really do sorta come off as saying "these people are not worth it," but without further qualification. It does seem a bit polarizing, to be honest. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: stray on February 26, 2007, 07:28:34 AM What am I saying is that they are not worth marketing too on this level. Let alone championing. People who buy a Wii for Wii Sports will not go much beyond that. People who buy a DS for Brain Age or Nintendogs will not go much beyond that. If at all. So? Nintendo has sold well over 8.5 million copies of Brain Age (probably well past 9 million by now). That's more copies than any of the Zeldas (though not all the Zeldas combined). Nintendogs is somewhere over 8.5 million as well. And there are a helluva lot more of "them" than "us" out there so even if it turns out they won't buy as many titles as we do that's still a humongous barely tapped market that only Nintendo if focused on right now and so far it's paying off for them.There is a difference between making games that target specific people and making an entire platform that does so. It's not like I have a problem with Brain Age specifically. Or Wii Sports. I like those titles. More power to them. Just don't drag everything along with it (and I'm not saying Nintendo is doing that yet. I'm just fearful that they may, and that they're being encouraged too much by the non gaming press to do so). Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Calantus on February 26, 2007, 07:36:07 AM The problem I have with it is basically the same that old fans have towards a band "selling out". There's nothing wrong with it, really, but if the band is no longer making your kind of music you like because another market is bigger and likes something different, you're not going to be happy about it. Any time developers or publishers make a move towards the mass market it makes me cringe to think that if they ever crack it we'll be niche material faster than you can say "money hats". We've seen a similar situation develop with the PC as a gaming platform. There are a few holdouts there, mostly games that don't currently work quite as well on consoles, but most everyone else has jumped ship to where the money's at.
Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Roac on February 26, 2007, 08:12:34 AM You're talking about a completely different "hardcore". Blood splattering has nothing to do with saying this is a gamer's market. This isn't about morals. You're right, it isn't; it's about branding. The iconic figure of the XBox is Halo, or if you want something newer, Gears of War. One of the dominant series of the PS2 was GTA. The iconic figure of Nintendo is a plumber who thumps turtles, and whose sidekick is a cute dinosaur-horse hybrid. Second place hero is an elf. Only in third place do we get a shooter game, but the hero here is a chic who never shows any T&A. And still no blood splatter here either; baddies just poof, and the story is thin (ie, uncomplicated / incidental). Even with the NES/SNES days, Nintendo has always been about casual (mostly with GB, but the idea has been moving onto their consoles) and young (since day 1) gamers. If you thought differently during that period, it's only because you didn't have much choice. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Roac on February 26, 2007, 08:29:35 AM What am I saying is that they are not worth marketing too on this level. Let alone championing. People who buy a Wii for Wii Sports will not go much beyond that. People who buy a DS for Brain Age or Nintendogs will not go much beyond that. If at all. So? Nintendo has sold well over 8.5 million copies of Brain Age (probably well past 9 million by now). That's more copies than any of the Zeldas (though not all the Zeldas combined). Nintendogs is somewhere over 8.5 million as well. And there are a helluva lot more of "them" than "us" out there so even if it turns out they won't buy as many titles as we do that's still a humongous barely tapped market that only Nintendo if focused on right now and so far it's paying off for them.There is a difference between making games that target specific people and making an entire platform that does so. It's not like I have a problem with Brain Age specifically. Or Wii Sports. I like those titles. More power to them. Just don't drag everything along with it (and I'm not saying Nintendo is doing that yet. I'm just fearful that they may, and that they're being encouraged too much by the non gaming press to do so). Just those two titles alone would nearly have made the DS a success. I'm not kidding by much; those two titles are equivalent to almost 20% of the PSP's entire software sales. Something else to consider: I pointed out earlier that the attachment rate to the GC was about 9 titles per console, on average. The median would have been lower; probably 7 or maybe 8. That's for a five year lifetime. Even if you consider many people didn't buy one late into its lifetime, you're still looking at a huge number of people who don't buy more than 2 titles for a console in a year. These are the people who carry the game industry, not people like you or me. The differnece is that there are so many people who do want to buy just a couple titles, that even that low attachment rate is still vastly superior in terms of buying power to people who want 20 or more titles. Here's something else too; because so many people buy so few titles (and consequently, play their games with much less frequency) what they want to buy is different. But they're still games, and still generate plenty of entertainment for people who buy them. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: stray on February 26, 2007, 09:01:01 AM You're talking about a completely different "hardcore". Blood You're right, it isn't; it's about branding. The iconic figure of the XBox is Halo, or if you want something newer, Gears of War. One of the dominant series of the PS2 was GTA. The iconic figure of Nintendo is a plumber who thumps turtles, and whose sidekick is a cute dinosaur-horse hybrid. Second place hero is an elf. Only in third place do we get a shooter game, but the hero here is a chic who never shows any T&A. You're talking about an entirely different thing than anything I'm saying. Not even Mario is casual. That is very much in the gamer's domain. Metroid - gamers. Zelda - gamers. Because you bounce on heads instead of shoot them does not make them "casual". The gaming market I'm talking has nothing to do with blood or guts or edginess or T&A or whatever. Or rather, it may or may not. That isn't the point. It's not even near the same conversation every single person in this thread is talking about. Not even worth making a small side reference to. Just stop talking about it. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Merusk on February 26, 2007, 09:37:15 AM It's not about normal vs pasty fatasses in their mom's basement. There are plenty of normal gamers and plenty of abnormal non gamers. It's irrelevant. I'm just talking about consumer types. And gaming companies need a specific kind to sustain themselves. There's too much money involved. Even for some of the simplest of games. The only reason there's so much money involved is for years the consoles have been chasing the people who wanted more polys, more art, more hunter, more more more more! BUT damnit the games still better only be $50 and the console better only run me $200-$300 bucks! This gen, MS and Sony said, "Guess what, you're going to have to start paying for it." Some people bit, some haven't. Myself, I'm not biting. It's not worth it to me, not by a long shot. I'm not taking that $400 I've got saved for a Wii and buying a 360 or part of a ps3, I'm buying vegetation. The console industry is more than willing to cater to the 'hardcore' in the terms you've defined, it Stray. The 360 and PS3 have shown that, and I expect the PS4 and whatever the next MS console will be called will show it agian in 5 years. However, it's also just finding out that there's a much larger audience out there who prefers something different, at a much more reasonable pricepoint and realizes that yes, indeed, these are ONLY toys and nothing more. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Stephen Zepp on February 26, 2007, 09:37:57 AM I'm not trying to come down on anyone either, but what is it that makes you think that very console out there needs to be for you? (You in the plural sense, meaning gamers/hardcore gamers/etc). Here's a totally off the wall thought about why it's good that the Wii and Wii games are appealing to non-gamers: Who do you think it is that is supporting all this anti-game legislature? It's people that have never enjoyed games, and think that all games have to be fps shooters that include mass slaughter of things that move. If every movie ever made were all slasher/horror filled with blood and torture, you can be damn sure the industry would be tied down with all sorts of legislative acts, but broad capability of the industry has given "something for everyone". I don't watch disney flicks much, but the existence of disney flicks enhances my movie watching experiences, not lessens them. Why should every console out there be expected to meet the needs of the hardcore/"we want more xxx games" market segments? Just trying to point out a different viewpoint here, and again not coming down on anyone here, so all you haters out there take a pill :P The reason why I care is because I fear those casuals won't support the industry anywhere close to how gamers do. I would go so far as to say that I'd be surprised if they bought more than five games during a console's lifetime. Especially the majority of them. It's just a waste of money all around trying to appeal to these folks. In the end, they don't care. Man, no insult intended, but that is a naive/uninformed position. Casual gamers control orders of magnitude more buying power than all hardcore gamers of all genres combined. If Nintendo properly captures the intention of the three following market segments: --soccer moms --well off retirees --pre-middle age parents with 1-3 kids They will make WoW look like a splash in a creek. We, as "hardcore" gamers may not like it, but those three market segments will define the gaming industry in the next 15 years....and you heard it here first (ok, maybe you didn't, but...) Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: stray on February 26, 2007, 09:45:43 AM How do you even market to them? That's another question.
A gamer looks for info. And I'm not even talking about hardcore ones. I'm just saying a gamer is involved enough to know what's coming out or who to ask. Or at the very least, likes to go into game stores and browse at boxes. Even kids are somewhat informed. Not necessarily hunting info, but there are easily marketable strategies for them. Through commercials, through the very cartoons and movies they're watching, through other toys, through chit chat at school, etc.. Housewives and rest homes. Tell me how you market to these people -- enough to the point that you can even come to half of the sales that the gaming industry has been banking on through gamers. The best you get is maybe a mention here or there in the NYTimes or USA Today about something. Or maybe seeing someone at the office dabbling with a game in their off time. How do you get other, equally deserving, future third party "casual" titles to even gain awareness, let alone get sold? Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Stephen Zepp on February 26, 2007, 09:50:08 AM How do you even market to them? That's another question. A gamer looks for info. And I'm not even talking about hardcore ones. I'm just saying a gamer is involved enough to know what's coming out or who to ask. Or at the very least, likes to go into game stores and browse at boxes. Even kids are somewhat informed. Not necessarily hunting info, but there are easily marketable strategies for them. Through commercials, through the very cartoons and movies they're watching, through other toys, through chit chat at school, etc.. Housewives and rest homes. Tell me how you market to these people -- enough to the point that you can even come to half of the sales that the gaming industry has been banking on through gamers. The best you get is maybe a mention here or there in the NYTimes or USA Today about something. Or maybe seeing someone at the office dabbling with a game in their off time. How do you get other, equally deserving, future third party "casual" titles to even gain awareness, let alone get sold? I'm not a marketer, and I honestly can't answer your questions, but those problems are solvable...and the buying power the markets have makes it just about a no-brainer. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: stray on February 26, 2007, 09:56:08 AM Well, it goes back to me saying it's a gamer's market. There isn't even a reliable marketing strategy in place for these other people, and Nintendo only has a game company's experience to draw from. They sure as hell can't use traditional gamer strategies for casuals, to say the least. This isn't Field of Dreams. Nintendo could very well make a thousand great casual games. Doesn't necessarily mean those people are going to buy them though. Or even know about them.
Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Roac on February 26, 2007, 10:16:20 AM You're talking about an entirely different thing than anything I'm saying. Not even Mario is casual. That is very much in the gamer's domain. Metroid - gamers. Zelda - gamers. Because you bounce on heads instead of shoot them does not make them "casual". For one, I didn't say Nintendo was casual; I said they are aiming for casual and younger players. There is overlap here, and the titles I mentioned hit on it in a way GoW doesn't even try. Secondly, it isn't the game mechanics that makes a game casual but the people playing it. These games are casual because people who are identified as casual gamers are buying them. That doesn't mean that non-casual or non-youthful gamers can't or don't buy these games. It isn't either or like that. Oh, and just for kicks, Miyamoto (http://money.cnn.com/2005/06/02/commentary/game_over/column_gaming/index.htm) cited both Halo and GTA as being the type of games he wants to avoid. Not because they're bad games, but because it's not the direction Nintendo wants to go. They're too long, too involved. What he wants are "play for 30 minute" type games, family games and family friendly games. That's alwyays been Nintendo's philosophy; pointing out the MK issue was just one small but notable aspect of it. This is what Nintendo consistantly says their approach is, these are the games they make, and this is what people who identify themselves as casual gamers are buying. Being casual doesn't mean only a genre of minigames; it means whatever people who don't buy much in games buy. Targeting a younger audiance doesn't man no shooters, it means no blood-splattered photo-realistic shooters that make Timmy wet his bed. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Strazos on February 26, 2007, 10:54:21 AM Stray, what are you talking about that the "casual" market isn't worth spending money on? The Wii has been making money from Day One.
Has Microsoft's console division ever turned a profit? How long did it take them, and how many sales did it take? And as was said earlier, while the Wii may attract lots of nontraditional gamers, some of them will become obsessed with games to a varying degree. This isn't exactly a "barbarians at the gate" situation. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: stray on February 26, 2007, 11:40:23 AM Stray, what are you talking about that the "casual" market isn't worth spending money on? The Wii has been making money from Day One. Has Microsoft's console division ever turned a profit? How long did it take them, and how many sales did it take? And as was said earlier, while the Wii may attract lots of nontraditional gamers, some of them will become obsessed with games to a varying degree. This isn't exactly a "barbarians at the gate" situation. It's not a matter of whether casuals buy the hardware. They will. Possibily fuckloads of it. It's a matter of whether they will look at the hardware in the same way as a gamer. Or even a young gamer. How open will casuals be to games besides their entry purchases? Will they basically look at it like a fun toy? A single game system, virtually no different than a Sudoku keychain device -- or like a boardgame -- just more sophisticated? Will it have as limited a use to them as a swimming pool or karaoke machine, or will it be an actual gaming platform to them (something with varied possibilities, but at a $50 per game cost)? Will they buy enough third party titles to even have a modest library (and by library, I don't mean anything out of ordinary)? And how you will you get these people to even discover those new games in the first place? The entire gaming industry is built a certain way to mainly appeal to gamers. Appealing to casuals, outside the very rare occassions where the non gaming press is fellating something in front of them, is very hard to achieve. And again, there is nothing wrong with casual games. I'm not saying that, and will never say it. There's just something wrong with the idea of a system for casuals. If you make casual games, you're still better off targeting gamers with casual interests, rather than the casuals themselves. At least the former market is somewhat dependable. If you get lucky and happen to win over the casuals too, then great. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Alkiera on February 26, 2007, 12:03:33 PM Well, it goes back to me saying it's a gamer's market. There isn't even a reliable marketing strategy in place for these other people, and Nintendo only has a game company's experience to draw from. They sure as hell can't use traditional gamer strategies for casuals, to say the least. This isn't Field of Dreams. Nintendo could very well make a thousand great casual games. Doesn't necessarily mean those people are going to buy them though. Or even know about them. This isn't rocket science. They just have to advertise outside of EBStop. Nigh unto everyone walks through Wal*Mart, especially those in the groups Zepp mentioned. They all watch TV. Millions of people buy millions of products without having to go out and look for a solution to the problem. We've even come up with a name for the process of letting people know about products, it's called 'advertising'. If you want to hit a big market, you really need it. Frankly, all the 'gamers research, they pre-order, they anticipate upcoming games, they work hard to enjoy games' stuff is begining to sound like the Vanbois... 'Don't listen to them, those posers aren't willing to camp EBStop for the next game. It's not our fault they haven't put in the time(sitting on their butt in the early AM) required to earn the newest console! They don't know what a good game is! Look at my shelf of lewts! I can't count how many times we've raided BestBuy. We have it on farm status.' That is HardKore, guys. All those people you guys complain about in the MMO forum? You're THEM. -- Alkiera Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: stray on February 26, 2007, 12:11:12 PM Never said anything about preordering. Don't put words in my mouth.
Never used the term "research" either. You're making it sound way too serious. I'm just talking about initiative. Anticipating upcoming games -- hardly "Hardcore". I suppose people who antipate albums and films are hardcore too? None of this is to say I'm not hardcore though. I am. I never denied that once. The gamers I'm talking here are just gamers, another category entirely. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Yegolev on February 26, 2007, 12:11:26 PM Burn!
Also, this is way more than five thoughts. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: stray on February 26, 2007, 12:22:01 PM Heh. I'm now giving up on this argument though (I'm sure that'll please everyone).
I've said everything I needed to say, and then some. So I'll just say now that, as far as a "casual" game I'd like to see on the Wii: A maestro game. Conducting baton simulation for the win. It'll be the Guitar Hero for chin stroky 50 somethings :-D Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: sigil on February 26, 2007, 01:05:39 PM Heh. I'm now giving up on this argument though (I'm sure that'll please everyone). I've said everything I needed to say, and then some. So I'll just say now that, as far as a "casual" game I'd like to see on the Wii: A maestro game. Conducting baton simulation for the win. It'll be the Guitar Hero for chin stroky 50 somethings :-D Like this? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wii_Music) I picked up the Wii last week, Taxes came in, and the wife wanted it for the VC. It's the number one used electronic device in the house now, after tivo. Learning how to use the zoom feature properly on the internet channel means I don't have to get up to the PC to read the boards I follow. I get my weather, headlines, and forums in about 15 minutes in the morning. As it stands right now, it's more convenient than what I was doing in the morning, and gives me more time to do a morning workout and get ready for work. My Wife's happy because OOT came out today. I play my PS2 for winning 11, and that's about it. But I am not like most of you, when it comes to your gaming interests. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: stray on February 26, 2007, 01:18:26 PM Like this? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wii_Music) Shit. Yeah, exactly. Cool idea. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: HaemishM on February 26, 2007, 01:21:02 PM The reason why I care is because I fear those casuals won't support the industry anywhere close to how gamers do. I would go so far as to say that I'd be surprised if they bought more than five games during a console's lifetime. Especially the majority of them. Except there's a whole lot more of THEM than there are of us, which means if they only buy 5 games during the console's lifetime, their numbers still match or exceed ours. More money for the game industry. Why is that a bad thing? Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: stray on February 26, 2007, 01:25:47 PM I said I was finished with that argument, but I should say:
Good point. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: schild on February 26, 2007, 01:42:42 PM Stray is worried about games becoming homogenized shit to appeal to everyone - like WoW.
I agree with that. More money for the industry assumes that people like us KEEP buying minigame half-assed bullshit. Ya know what, that's not going to happen. People will get tired of it and people will stop buying it. Old people and young people. This isn't an endless wave Nintendo can ride. At least not in America. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: HaemishM on February 26, 2007, 01:51:19 PM How open will casuals be to games besides their entry purchases? Will they basically look at it like a fun toy? A single game system, virtually no different than a Sudoku keychain device -- or like a boardgame -- just more sophisticated? Will it have as limited a use to them as a swimming pool or karaoke machine, or will it be an actual gaming platform to them (something with varied possibilities, but at a $50 per game cost)? Will they buy enough third party titles to even have a modest library (and by library, I don't mean anything out of ordinary)? Again, they don't have to buy 15 titles. Every single piece of hardware is sold at a profit, and every game will mean profit to Nintendo. I'm not exactly sure what calamity you think will befall Nintendo for not catering to the overcatered hardcore gamer fanatic. Quote And how you will you get these people to even discover those new games in the first place? The same way you get them to discover any other product, you market to them. TV ads, magazine ads, advertorials in magazines where your target audience reads, web sites, kiosks, spots in Wal-Mart's ad circulars, promos with big-chain retailers, as well as things that are free such as Colbert's mention of the Wii back in December. What's funny is that the casual non-gamer is actually open to MORE forms of marketing than the gamer whose information is often restricted to very gamer-niche-oriented marketing channels. Quote The entire gaming industry is built a certain way to mainly appeal to gamers. And that's done so well for the game industry so far. Oh wait, no it hasn't, because only a few larger publishers and hardware manufacturers can succeed fighting over the same retard tater tot that is the hardcore gamer's market. The gaming industry has been fucked for a while now because of the way it's been structured. See the PC Gaming market for an example of fewer and fewer dev houses in a profitable industry. Why? Because it's structured to funnel money up to the top and it isn't growing its market beyond the already entrenched hardcore gamer market. Quote Appealing to casuals, outside the very rare occassions where the non gaming press is fellating something in front of them, is very hard to achieve. Correct, but the spoils are much much higher than just appealing to the same old market that Nintendo is already 3rd dog in. Nintendo has nothing to lose and everything to gain by targeting their system at casual users. To try to target an HD, hardcore gamer's market would not only be a task sure to keep them relegated to 3rd place, it would also break their cardinal rule, never sell something for a loss. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Alkiera on February 26, 2007, 01:54:15 PM Stray is worried about games becoming homogenized shit to appeal to everyone - like WoW. I agree with that. More money for the industry assumes that people like us KEEP buying minigame half-assed bullshit. Ya know what, that's not going to happen. People will get tired of it and people will stop buying it. Old people and young people. This isn't an endless wave Nintendo can ride. At least not in America. Well, if we continue the regular comparison of games to movies.... they probably can. However, there will be games that appeal to others, just as in the movie industry. Perhaps there will still be a reason for EBStops, they'll be like the arthouse theater; stuff comes there that isn't mainstream, that can't be found in the regular store, but instead of films from Miyazaki, you'll get games from Nippon Ichi Software. -- Alkiera Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: HaemishM on February 26, 2007, 01:56:19 PM Stray is worried about games becoming homogenized shit to appeal to everyone - like WoW. I agree with that. That happened with the PS2 and the funneling of profits from indy dev houses to large publishers. That happened with the total numbers of the video game industry rivaling, then surpassing the movie industry. That shit has been happening and will continue to happen, and will happen faster now that 2 of the 3 consoles are producing HD games with budgets 2x to 4x higher than the previous generation. The only saving grace is that now all 3 consoles have download-enabled marketplaces as a way to sell older/indy-developed simpler games for cheap. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Margalis on February 26, 2007, 04:05:47 PM Large budgets are far and away the #1 cause of homogenization. This is true in movies as well.
Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Roac on February 26, 2007, 06:23:07 PM Large budgets are far and away the #1 cause of homogenization. This is true in movies as well. Low budget movies are still being made, too. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Margalis on February 26, 2007, 08:35:55 PM True. My point is just that more money spent on a game/movie almost directly correlates to fewer chances taken and general predictability.
Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: stray on February 27, 2007, 01:38:55 AM I had to reconsider something...
I'm actually not hardcore. 8-) Right on the borderline maybe. I've never waited in afterhour lines for a game or game machine. I've never died in a contest for a gaming machine. I don't go to gaming shows, events, or tournaments. Hardly ever preorder -- I just scour the earth on launch day. I buy a lot of games though. And try to follow the industry, follow games for certain teams/devs, etc.. as I do the music and film industry. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: schild on February 27, 2007, 02:08:29 AM One would argue that given the amount of energy spent not having a preorder on launch day is far more hardcore than sitting at a store playing a portable for a few hours.
Honestly, the only thing that came out of that post is I LIKE GAMES BUT I DON'T WANT TO STOP PLAYING TO MAKE A PREORDER. You're more hardcore than me. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: stray on February 27, 2007, 02:12:59 AM Well, it's not that I don't want to preorder. I just don't think about it. If I played games constantly like that would suggest though, then I'd be in terrible shape. And you've seen me.
Purchasing habits-wise though, I'd say I'm hardcore. I'm just not very involved in some of those other secondary issues. [EDIT] Lets see, I have 46 games on the PS2. Not counting stuff I've sold. Probably at least 70 total since 2000. Also went through 3 PS2's. 5 on the PS3. Sold my XBox, and gave away my Cube (neither of which I had for long). Only a handful of games on the GC. Probably at least 15 on the XB. A handful of games on the DS as well (which I haven't even touched in a year). Pretty much a cabinet full of PC games, just starting from 2003. Counting that and online purchases, it's probably in the 30ish range. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: schild on February 27, 2007, 02:36:41 AM Huh. I wonder if I should try that thread again where people take pictures of how their games are organized. I understand it's the geekiest thing ever. But I'm always looking for something more efficient, though I think I've got it pretty down pat now.
Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: stray on February 27, 2007, 02:41:36 AM I shove my PS2 boxes in a closet, and keep the discs in a binder. :-P
The PC boxes are a mess. Just shoved in a shelf within my entertainment center. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Roac on February 27, 2007, 05:49:11 AM I just keep my games in my entertainment center in the living room, stacked upright side by side along with DVDs and VHS cassettes (the latter which are almost all Disney stuffs). Nothing crazy, but I don't have but maybe... 20-30 games between the Wii, GC, and PS2. A manageable amount anyway.
Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Yegolev on February 27, 2007, 07:34:17 AM I think people are missing the point with being a hardcore gamer, sometimes confusing it with being a hardcore line-stander or money-spender or bad-planner. In my opinion it is more about how much you like games, not how much you spend or whatnot.
My wife is a good study here. As far as games go, she is only hardcore about The Sims. She isn't the most hardcore Sims player out there, not by a long shot, but compared to most of you in the scope of a single game she outstrips the average by far. The time, effort and money she puts into The Sims 2 right now makes WUA look like one of those Wii-playing grandpas by comparison. However, she's not a hardcore gamer, just a hardcore Sims player. Me, I love most every game genre to a certain degree. Space Quest, Nethack, Diablo, StarCraft, Super Mario Blank, Baten Kaitos, GalCiv, Freespace, X-COM, Fallout, Half-Life 1/2, Vagrant Story, Disgaea, Sam+Max, Daggerfall, Tekken, Virtua Fighter, Metal Saga, Shin Megami Tensei: Blah Blah Blah, Chibi-Robo, Katamari Damacy, Ico, Phantom Dust, Armed-N-Dangerous, Eternal Darkness, System Shock, Thief, Twisted Metal. I could go on. I'm not a hardcore FPS player, but I love a good one despite my burnout there, and it should not matter that I suck at them since it's really just a matter of practice. I'm constrained by time and cannot play, but I can still differentiate between a good and bad FPS. I can make the call between a good and bad JRPG, and I can tell you why it sucks much like a movie critic can tell you why Failure To Launch was a horrible blight upon moviemaking with lots of technical terms. I can tell you why Blaster Master was a superior platformer. I can pick out the few flaws in FFXII and I can expound on the specific design mistakes in Rogue Galaxy. Maybe you won't agree with me on my points of why San Andreas is awesome, but I will have specific points even if they are hinged on opinion. Furthermore, I'll make an effort to appreciate your salient points. I don't mean to sound like I'm being pompous or something, but I think I'm a hardcore gamer. I just don't have the free time required to play all of the games I love. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: stray on March 04, 2007, 09:20:46 AM So I ended up finding myself in another opportunity to get a Wii. So this time I bit. :-P
Almost bought that DBZ game (guilty pleasure), but I didn't go that far. Standard Wii + Zelda purchase for now. And a gamepad for VC. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: CmdrSlack on March 04, 2007, 08:11:50 PM So I ended up finding myself in another opportunity to get a Wii. So this time I bit. :-P Almost bought that DBZ game (guilty pleasure), but I didn't go that far. Standard Wii + Zelda purchase for now. And a gamepad for VC. Damn man, share the luck...I'm still looking for one as my "finished the bar exam" reward....I was even willing to fly one home from SF if I coulda found one out there...but no dice. That makes two major cities and their burbs that are Wii-free. Sucks. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: HaemishM on March 16, 2007, 08:52:59 AM Wii (and the DS) still kicking all other hardware sales asses:
Quote According to independent sales data released by the NPD Group, the Wii™ from Nintendo was America's best-selling video game console in the U.S. again in February, with consumers snapping up virtually every system available in America totaling more than 335,000 units. Only one game system sold more in February, the portable Nintendo DS™, with sell-through of 485,000 units. Together, Nintendo systems represented 54 percent of all hardware sales in February, more than those of all other manufacturers combined. "We're gratified that the explosive appeal of Wii, in terms of both new players and new ways to play, has created unprecedented demand, substantially beyond supply," says Reggie Fils-Aime, president, Nintendo of America. "But we also understand that there are hundreds of thousands of consumers still waiting to get their hands on the system so we continue to both ship more units to retail every week and work non-stop to build capacity." Reports from households across the country indicate that Wii has become the centerpiece for weekend parties a new method for improving athletic technique and losing weight, and a landmark product for generating cross-generational fun. The strength of Wii and Nintendo DS was also apparent in monthly software sales where three of the top four best-selling games for the month (Wii Play™ and The Legend of Zelda®: Twilight Princess for Wii, and Diddy Kong® Racing DS for Nintendo DS) play exclusively on Nintendo systems. In addition, so far this year 10 of the top 20 best-selling games are exclusive for Nintendo hardware. Oh yeah, and they are selling software too. Anyone still wanting to doomcast the Wii? I'm sure you'll be able to. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Rasix on March 16, 2007, 09:56:43 AM Did anyone even doomcast the Wii in this thread at all?
Still not a damn thing on the system that makes me want to buy it. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: WindupAtheist on March 16, 2007, 05:00:03 PM The time, effort and money she puts into The Sims 2 right now makes WUA look like one of those Wii-playing grandpas by comparison. However, she's not a hardcore gamer, just a hardcore Sims player. Wait, what? Since when do I carry the banner for the hardcore? Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: squirrel on March 16, 2007, 05:10:01 PM Did anyone even doomcast the Wii in this thread at all? Still not a damn thing on the system that makes me want to buy it. Yeah there's not many titles on it. But to be honest I tried to buy one today - I had the day off and some spare $$$ - and I couldn't get one. Took all day to try. I just want it for Wii Sports which my girlfriend and son really enjoyed on a friends Wii. For the $250 or so that and a couple other games is enough for me - anything else is game gravy really. Anecdotally on console availability here in Vancouver, BC (and plz - i'm not bashing PS3 or wanting to totally derail here): I called 17 stores today (EB's, Best Buys, Future Shop, Toys R Us, London Drugs, Sears and a few independent resellers.) Every time I asked: "Do you have any Nintendo Wii's in stock? Do you have any PS3's in stock? How about Xbox 360's?" (my 360 is in repair hell)... Every store had 360's. 15/17 had PS3's. 0 had Wii's - most were getting a shipment for tomorrow/sunday, but expected total sell-outs by end of day. Just interesting. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: stray on March 16, 2007, 05:54:52 PM I'm not doomcasting. Just unimpressed with the usual "Grandma likes the Wii" news.
Having a little buyer's remorse though. I could have waited longer to get one. I'm not even sure if Paper Mario will win me over, and there isn't much in sight for awhile after that. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Sairon on March 16, 2007, 07:15:53 PM Okay, so I finally got the opportunity to play me some Wii sports and super monkey ball the other day. I must say, seriously, this might be the most over hyped thing ever created in the history of gaming. Seriously, what's so impressive? For example golfing doesn't feel even a tiny little bit like golfing, there's a hundred diffrent ways to move the controller in order to affect the power meter. Swinging it like a golf club doesn't tell anything about how good of a swing you just performed. Boxing is very much the same way, the actual actions performed reflect very little how you've moved the controller. If Wii sports somehow should show me the potential of the controller it fails miserably.
And so does monkey ball. Most of the games would be A LOT easier and more precisely controlled with a standard controller. Is it just extremely poor demonstration of the capabilities of the controller or is it that the controller simply isn't very precise? Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Strazos on March 16, 2007, 09:34:29 PM I wouldn't exactly hold up Wii Sports as the definitive example of the control scheme capabilities. Also, I wouldn't head into any of these games, especially sports games, thinking they're going to control like anything resembling the real sport or whatever.
Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Margalis on March 17, 2007, 12:37:32 AM The golf is really fun if you play competitively and turn off meters.
I also love tennis and boxing, and baseball even. Bowling just seems really boring. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Azazel on March 17, 2007, 06:33:15 AM Okay, so I finally got the opportunity to play me some Wii sports and super monkey ball the other day. I must say, seriously, this might be the most over hyped thing ever created in the history of gaming. Seriously, what's so impressive? For example golfing doesn't feel even a tiny little bit like golfing, there's a hundred diffrent ways to move the controller in order to affect the power meter. Swinging it like a golf club doesn't tell anything about how good of a swing you just performed. Boxing is very much the same way, the actual actions performed reflect very little how you've moved the controller. If Wii sports somehow should show me the potential of the controller it fails miserably. Well, golfing on the Wii certainly feels a lot more like actual golfing than carefully-timed button presses and/or thumbing the analogue nub. I was disappointed with the boxing once I realised that tilting the wiimotes in various directions was more effective than my actual-real-life fighting stance and blows. I don't know that any of the sports are accurate simulations of their real-world sports (outside works for that) but they're certainly moreso than, as I said, the various button-and-dualshock methods. Also, the Wii sports games are fun, but I feel deliberately rough and lacking in options. The better to sell you Mario Golf, Super Punch-Out, Mario Tennis, with tighter controls and tons of options later on down the track. So yeah, fun console, but not much to buy as far as software goes. Last thing I bought was Monkey Ball, 2 months ago, which I still haven't played. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Sairon on March 17, 2007, 07:27:20 AM Okay, so I finally got the opportunity to play me some Wii sports and super monkey ball the other day. I must say, seriously, this might be the most over hyped thing ever created in the history of gaming. Seriously, what's so impressive? For example golfing doesn't feel even a tiny little bit like golfing, there's a hundred diffrent ways to move the controller in order to affect the power meter. Swinging it like a golf club doesn't tell anything about how good of a swing you just performed. Boxing is very much the same way, the actual actions performed reflect very little how you've moved the controller. If Wii sports somehow should show me the potential of the controller it fails miserably. Well, golfing on the Wii certainly feels a lot more like actual golfing than carefully-timed button presses and/or thumbing the analogue nub. I was disappointed with the boxing once I realised that tilting the wiimotes in various directions was more effective than my actual-real-life fighting stance and blows. I don't know that any of the sports are accurate simulations of their real-world sports (outside works for that) but they're certainly moreso than, as I said, the various button-and-dualshock methods. Also, the Wii sports games are fun, but I feel deliberately rough and lacking in options. The better to sell you Mario Golf, Super Punch-Out, Mario Tennis, with tighter controls and tons of options later on down the track. So yeah, fun console, but not much to buy as far as software goes. Last thing I bought was Monkey Ball, 2 months ago, which I still haven't played. Yea it feels more golf like than pressing a button, I can certainly agree with that. The games are boring though, most NES games are better as actual games. So if it's supposed to be some technical demonstration of the Wiimote of what's to come, then it's unimpressive. It leads me to doubt the actual precision and resolution of the controller, which will be crucial to make good games. Can anybody suggest a game I should play which demonstrates what the controller is capable of? Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Samwise on March 17, 2007, 11:25:09 AM I don't think the Wiimote is sensitive enough to give you any more options than a standard controller does. It's just different is all.
Raving Rabbids is probably the best game I've played so far as far as making the Wiimote worthwhile. It's just plain fun to whirl the controller around in the air and have that correspond to swinging a cow by its tail. I suspect the Wii's strongest point is going to be party games like that. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Margalis on March 17, 2007, 04:36:11 PM Here's the thing: you *can* just flick your wrist for the same effect- but why would you?
Plus all the games suck single-player other than boxing. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Samwise on March 17, 2007, 05:34:39 PM Here's the thing: you *can* just flick your wrist for the same effect- but why would you? A very important component of the video game experience, for me, is that I feel like what I'm doing with the controller matters to what's happening on the screen. If what I'm doing doesn't make any difference, then I'm just playing make-believe with myself. I can do that just as easily without shelling out the money for a Wii. I might as well play a tennis game with a conventional controller and swing it around like a tennis racket. Or maybe watch a tennis match on TV while swinging a real racket around. Then I'd get better force feedback. (edit) Here's another way of looking at it. Suppose that on the Guitar Hero controller, the fretboard buttons were purely decorative, and success in the game was measured solely by the timing of the strummy bit. You could still try to match the tab on the screen with your left hand, and pretend that what you were doing was a bit more like playing a guitar, but it wouldn't matter as far as the game was concerned. Would it still be as fun of a game? Would you even bother with the fretboard once you'd figured out that it didn't do anything? Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Sairon on March 17, 2007, 06:31:34 PM I agree with Samwise, if I have to pretend that much I might as well swing my dual shock or whatever around while pressing the buttons.
Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Azazel on March 17, 2007, 07:20:47 PM Yea it feels more golf like than pressing a button, I can certainly agree with that. The games are boring though, most NES games are better as actual games. So if it's supposed to be some technical demonstration of the Wiimote of what's to come, then it's unimpressive. It leads me to doubt the actual precision and resolution of the controller, which will be crucial to make good games. Can anybody suggest a game I should play which demonstrates what the controller is capable of? I guess it comes down to taste then. I quite enjoy the Bowling. I don't mind the boxing/golf/tennis though they're not mind-blowing. Monkey Ball (which I rented before I bought) was fun enough to buy, though as mentioned, I haven't gotten around to playing yet since buying. Rayman is an alright collection of minigames, and Wii Play has a fun 2-player air hockey game, and only cost a few bucks more than a controller (and was discounted on top of that). Red Steel, CoD3 tried something new in FPS land, but it didn't work for me. Zelda took too long to get interesting so I fucked it off, and most everything else appears to be lame ports with a Wiimote scheme tacked on. Since the thing is still selling very well though, I'm hoping that by Christmas there will be a bunch more good games that really use the console. So, yeah. Not much to buy right now. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Azazel on March 17, 2007, 07:27:45 PM I agree with Samwise, if I have to pretend that much I might as well swing my dual shock or whatever around while pressing the buttons. *shrug* might just be that this isn't the console for you guys. At least at the moment. I'm sure you can find other uses for the money in the meantime... Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Samwise on March 17, 2007, 07:37:18 PM Oh, I think the Wii is worthwhile. The ability to play GC games and download classic NES/SNES games is worth half the purchase price on its own IMO. And I bet there'll be plenty of good games that use a more conventional control scheme. And a few that use the Wiimote in creative ways, like goofy party games and stuff. Also, Excite Truck is fun even if it would work just as well with conventional controls.
Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: MrHat on March 18, 2007, 07:29:44 AM So I have some buds coming up next weekend and we want to play some Drunk Wii.
Any good party games? Which one? WarioWare, Raving Rabbids, Monkeyball? Recommendations? Any good driving games? Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Samwise on March 18, 2007, 03:19:52 PM Excite Truck is a good driving game, and Raving Rabbids is a good drunk party game. I can't comment on the others.
Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Roac on March 18, 2007, 09:25:21 PM So I have some buds coming up next weekend and we want to play some Drunk Wii. Any good party games? Which one? WarioWare, Raving Rabbids, Monkeyball? Recommendations? Any good driving games? WarioWare and Monkeyball got good reviews, but I didn't care for them. Give them a shot if you like, though. I love Rabbids, and would highly recommend it for any Wii Party stuffs. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Strazos on March 18, 2007, 09:42:19 PM Super Swing Golf?
Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Azazel on March 18, 2007, 10:53:07 PM Wii Sports, Raving Rabbids, and Monkey Ball (the mini-games, not the main Monkey Ball game).
Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Velorath on March 18, 2007, 11:07:15 PM Support for the Wii seems to at least be slowly growing. Recent announcements of games like Project O (http://wii.ign.com/articles/771/771785p1.html), Opoona (http://wii.ign.com/articles/772/772659p1.html), and Treasure Island Z (http://wii.ign.com/articles/772/772660p1.html) all seem like projects to an eye on, especially for RPG fans.
Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: stray on March 18, 2007, 11:54:11 PM I'll probably have fun with Treasure Island Z, but pixel hunting is a kind of step back for Capcom. They, if anyone, have been the big third party that had Nintendo's back for so long. They could do better than that.
Besides the big Nintendo titles this year, I'm actually looking forward to the Naruto game. Heh. I'd like a flashy Fighter title like that, and DBZ isn't my thing. Naruto is. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: HaemishM on March 19, 2007, 09:32:35 AM Wii Sports is a fun tech demonstration masquerading as a fun party game. You shouldn't try to expect a deep sports simulation, that's coming.
Tiger Woods Golf just came out on the 13th. There's your golf game. 2kSports is making The Show later on in the summer for baseball. The Pokemon battle game coming out later this year sounds like it'll be the Net multiplayer killer app for the system. The Prince of Persia game could be interesting, though I'm not sure it'll be more than a tacked-on port like Marvel: Ultimate Alliance was. There's rumors of Sega's Nights franchise being resurrected on the system. By summer, there should be a decent set of games. By Christmas, there should be a really good library of games. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Yegolev on March 19, 2007, 11:15:53 AM The time, effort and money she puts into The Sims 2 right now makes WUA look like one of those Wii-playing grandpas by comparison. However, she's not a hardcore gamer, just a hardcore Sims player. Wait, what? Since when do I carry the banner for the hardcore? I have no comeback, unless you are still addicted to UO. I just hadn't used you in an example for many months. I suppose it would have been more apt if my wife was playing SimCity 2000. My bad. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Velorath on March 19, 2007, 06:22:31 PM I'll probably have fun with Treasure Island Z, but pixel hunting is a kind of step back for Capcom. They, if anyone, have been the big third party that had Nintendo's back for so long. They could do better than that. Well they still supposedly have that Resident Evil game in the works also, although there's still been next to nothing shown of it. Treasure Island Z's director did Power Stone 2 and RE: Outbreak, so it's not exactly being done by one of Capcom's top teams. Like most Wii games it seems to have the potential to either be additively fun or completely tedious. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Yegolev on March 20, 2007, 07:14:59 AM We might get Resident Chibivil.
Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: WindupAtheist on March 20, 2007, 08:50:08 AM I have no comeback, unless you are still addicted to UO. I just hadn't used you in an example for many months. I suppose it would have been more apt if my wife was playing SimCity 2000. My bad. Actually, I've just gotten back into it within the last week or so. There's a good RP community on Europa, and it makes things interesting. But me puttering around roleplaying and building a house in UO is like the exact opposite of hardcore. The level-grinding and face-melting I've been doing in WoW for the last few months, that was a little closer, but still nowhere near super-catassery. Title: Re: Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii Post by: Yegolev on March 20, 2007, 09:26:54 AM It's less about staying up until the wee hours and more about your overall level of dedication. My wife does spend quite a bit of time playing The Sims directly, but it's relative. She usually puts it away when it's time to watch me play some console game or to try to hand me a beatdown in fake bowling, especially when she's doing the metagaming she has been for the last few days, which is manually organizing the custom content she has downloaded that the creators put in the wrong place... something about people putting houseplants in the drapery section and other asshattery. She doesn't create her own content, not even retexturing things even though she posesses the skill and software to do that easily. The community and EA both drive her into a rage from time to time, but she sticks with it because she enjoys the game. The parallels to a MOG are there, so just toss in "EA" and "shitty" and you're not far from a UO devotee.
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