Five Thoughts on the Nintendo Wii

[CmdrSlack]

Too much coffee again, I see? 

Naw, I thought that was pretty non-aggro, actually.  Heck, I've had a whopping three hours of sleep!   :-D

You really do sorta come off as saying "these people are not worth it," but without further qualification.  It does seem a bit polarizing, to be honest. 

[stray]

What am I saying is that they are not worth marketing too on this level. Let alone championing. People who buy a Wii for Wii Sports will not go much beyond that. People who buy a DS for Brain Age or Nintendogs will not go much beyond that. If at all.

So? Nintendo has sold well over 8.5 million copies of Brain Age (probably well past 9 million by now). That's more copies than any of the Zeldas (though not all the Zeldas combined). Nintendogs is somewhere over 8.5 million as well. And there are a helluva lot more of "them" than "us" out there so even if it turns out they won't buy as many titles as we do that's still a humongous barely tapped market that only Nintendo if focused on right now and so far it's paying off for them.

There is a difference between making games that target specific people and making an entire platform that does so. It's not like I have a problem with Brain Age specifically. Or Wii Sports. I like those titles. More power to them. Just don't drag everything along with it (and I'm not saying Nintendo is doing that yet. I'm just fearful that they may, and that they're being encouraged too much by the non gaming press to do so).

[Calantus]

The problem I have with it is basically the same that old fans have towards a band "selling out". There's nothing wrong with it, really, but if the band is no longer making your kind of music you like because another market is bigger and likes something different, you're not going to be happy about it. Any time developers or publishers make a move towards the mass market it makes me cringe to think that if they ever crack it we'll be niche material faster than you can say "money hats". We've seen a similar situation develop with the PC as a gaming platform. There are a few holdouts there, mostly games that don't currently work quite as well on consoles, but most everyone else has jumped ship to where the money's at.

[Roac]

You're talking about a completely different "hardcore". Blood splattering has nothing to do with saying this is a gamer's market.

This isn't about morals.

You're right, it isn't; it's about branding.  The iconic figure of the XBox is Halo, or if you want something newer, Gears of War.  One of the dominant series of the PS2 was GTA.  The iconic figure of Nintendo is a plumber who thumps turtles, and whose sidekick is a cute dinosaur-horse hybrid.  Second place hero is an elf.  Only in third place do we get a shooter game, but the hero here is a chic who never shows any T&A.  And still no blood splatter here either; baddies just poof, and the story is thin (ie, uncomplicated / incidental).  Even with the NES/SNES days, Nintendo has always been about casual (mostly with GB, but the idea has been moving onto their consoles) and young (since day 1) gamers.  If you thought differently during that period, it's only because you didn't have much choice.

[Roac]

What am I saying is that they are not worth marketing too on this level. Let alone championing. People who buy a Wii for Wii Sports will not go much beyond that. People who buy a DS for Brain Age or Nintendogs will not go much beyond that. If at all.

So? Nintendo has sold well over 8.5 million copies of Brain Age (probably well past 9 million by now). That's more copies than any of the Zeldas (though not all the Zeldas combined). Nintendogs is somewhere over 8.5 million as well. And there are a helluva lot more of "them" than "us" out there so even if it turns out they won't buy as many titles as we do that's still a humongous barely tapped market that only Nintendo if focused on right now and so far it's paying off for them.

There is a difference between making games that target specific people and making an entire platform that does so. It's not like I have a problem with Brain Age specifically. Or Wii Sports. I like those titles. More power to them. Just don't drag everything along with it (and I'm not saying Nintendo is doing that yet. I'm just fearful that they may, and that they're being encouraged too much by the non gaming press to do so).

Just those two titles alone would nearly have made the DS a success.  I'm not kidding by much; those two titles are equivalent to almost 20% of the PSP's entire software sales.  Something else to consider:  I pointed out earlier that the attachment rate to the GC was about 9 titles per console, on average.  The median would have been lower; probably 7 or maybe 8.  That's for a five year lifetime.  Even if you consider many people didn't buy one late into its lifetime, you're still looking at a huge number of people who don't buy more than 2 titles for a console in a year.  These are the people who carry the game industry, not people like you or me.  The differnece is that there are so many people who do want to buy just a couple titles, that even that low attachment rate is still vastly superior in terms of buying power to people who want 20 or more titles.  Here's something else too; because so many people buy so few titles (and consequently, play their games with much less frequency) what they want to buy is different.  But they're still games, and still generate plenty of entertainment for people who buy them.

[stray]

You're talking about a completely different "hardcore". Blood You're right, it isn't; it's about branding.  The iconic figure of the XBox is Halo, or if you want something newer, Gears of War.  One of the dominant series of the PS2 was GTA.  The iconic figure of Nintendo is a plumber who thumps turtles, and whose sidekick is a cute dinosaur-horse hybrid.  Second place hero is an elf.  Only in third place do we get a shooter game, but the hero here is a chic who never shows any T&A.

You're talking about an entirely different thing than anything I'm saying. Not even Mario is casual. That is very much in the gamer's domain. Metroid - gamers. Zelda - gamers. Because you bounce on heads instead of shoot them does not make them "casual".

The gaming market I'm talking has nothing to do with blood or guts or edginess or T&A or whatever. Or rather, it may or may not. That isn't the point. It's not even near the same conversation every single person in this thread is talking about. Not even worth making a small side reference to. Just stop talking about it.

[Merusk]

It's not about normal vs pasty fatasses in their mom's basement. There are plenty of normal gamers and plenty of abnormal non gamers. It's irrelevant. I'm just talking about consumer types. And gaming companies need a specific kind to sustain themselves. There's too much money involved. Even for some of the simplest of games.

The only reason there's so much money involved is for years the consoles have been chasing the people who wanted more polys, more art, more hunter, more  more more more!  BUT damnit the games still better only be $50 and the console better only run me $200-$300 bucks! 

This gen, MS and Sony said, "Guess what, you're going to have to start paying for it." Some people bit, some haven't.  Myself, I'm not biting. It's not worth it to me, not by a long shot.   I'm not taking that $400 I've got saved for a Wii and buying a 360 or part of a ps3, I'm buying vegetation.

The console industry is more than willing to cater to the 'hardcore' in the terms you've defined, it Stray.  The 360 and PS3 have shown that, and I expect the PS4 and whatever the next MS console will be called will show it agian in 5 years.   However, it's also just finding out that there's a much larger audience out there who prefers something different, at a much more reasonable pricepoint and realizes that yes, indeed, these are ONLY toys and nothing more.

[Stephen Zepp]

I'm not trying to come down on anyone either, but what is it that makes you think that very console out there needs to be for you? (You in the plural sense, meaning gamers/hardcore gamers/etc).

Here's a totally off the wall thought about why it's good that the Wii and Wii games are appealing to non-gamers:

Who do you think it is that is supporting all this anti-game legislature? It's people that have never enjoyed games, and think that all games have to be fps shooters that include mass slaughter of things that move.

If every movie ever made were all slasher/horror filled with blood and torture, you can be damn sure the industry would be tied down with all sorts of legislative acts, but broad capability of the industry has given "something for everyone".

I don't watch disney flicks much, but the existence of disney flicks enhances my movie watching experiences, not lessens them. Why should every console out there be expected to meet the needs of the hardcore/"we want more xxx games" market segments?

Just trying to point out a different viewpoint here, and again not coming down on anyone here, so all you haters out there take a pill :P

The reason why I care is because I fear those casuals won't support the industry anywhere close to how gamers do. I would go so far as to say that I'd be surprised if they bought more than five games during a console's lifetime. Especially the majority of them.

It's just a waste of money all around trying to appeal to these folks. In the end, they don't care.

Man, no insult intended, but that is a naive/uninformed position. Casual gamers control orders of magnitude more buying power than all hardcore gamers of all genres combined. If Nintendo properly captures the intention of the three following market segments:

--soccer moms
--well off retirees
--pre-middle age parents with 1-3 kids

They will make WoW look like a splash in a creek. We, as "hardcore" gamers may not like it, but those three market segments will define the gaming industry in the next 15 years....and you heard it here first (ok, maybe you didn't, but...)

[stray]

How do you even market to them? That's another question.

A gamer looks for info. And I'm not even talking about hardcore ones. I'm just saying a gamer is involved enough to know what's coming out or who to ask. Or at the very least, likes to go into game stores and browse at boxes.

Even kids are somewhat informed. Not necessarily hunting info, but there are easily marketable strategies for them. Through commercials, through the very cartoons and movies they're watching, through other toys, through chit chat at school, etc..

Housewives and rest homes. Tell me how you market to these people -- enough to the point that you can even come to half of the sales that the gaming industry has been banking on through gamers. The best you get is maybe a mention here or there in the NYTimes or USA Today about something. Or maybe seeing someone at the office dabbling with a game in their off time.

How do you get other, equally deserving, future third party "casual" titles to even gain awareness, let alone get sold?

[Stephen Zepp]

How do you even market to them? That's another question.

A gamer looks for info. And I'm not even talking about hardcore ones. I'm just saying a gamer is involved enough to know what's coming out or who to ask. Or at the very least, likes to go into game stores and browse at boxes.

Even kids are somewhat informed. Not necessarily hunting info, but there are easily marketable strategies for them. Through commercials, through the very cartoons and movies they're watching, through other toys, through chit chat at school, etc..

Housewives and rest homes. Tell me how you market to these people -- enough to the point that you can even come to half of the sales that the gaming industry has been banking on through gamers. The best you get is maybe a mention here or there in the NYTimes or USA Today about something. Or maybe seeing someone at the office dabbling with a game in their off time.

How do you get other, equally deserving, future third party "casual" titles to even gain awareness, let alone get sold?

I'm not a marketer, and I honestly can't answer your questions, but those problems are solvable...and the buying power the markets have makes it just about a no-brainer.

[stray]

Well, it goes back to me saying it's a gamer's market. There isn't even a reliable marketing strategy in place for these other people, and Nintendo only has a game company's experience to draw from. They sure as hell can't use traditional gamer strategies for casuals, to say the least. This isn't Field of Dreams. Nintendo could very well make a thousand great casual games. Doesn't necessarily mean those people are going to buy them though. Or even know about them.

[Roac]

You're talking about an entirely different thing than anything I'm saying. Not even Mario is casual. That is very much in the gamer's domain. Metroid - gamers. Zelda - gamers. Because you bounce on heads instead of shoot them does not make them "casual".

For one, I didn't say Nintendo was casual; I said they are aiming for casual and younger players.  There is overlap here, and the titles I mentioned hit on it in a way GoW doesn't even try.  Secondly, it isn't the game mechanics that makes a game casual but the people playing it.  These games are casual because people who are identified as casual gamers are buying them.  That doesn't mean that non-casual or non-youthful gamers can't or don't buy these games.  It isn't either or like that.

Oh, and just for kicks, Miyamoto cited both Halo and GTA as being the type of games he wants to avoid.  Not because they're bad games, but because it's not the direction Nintendo wants to go.  They're too long, too involved.  What he wants are "play for 30 minute" type games, family games and family friendly games.  That's alwyays been Nintendo's philosophy; pointing out the MK issue was just one small but notable aspect of it.  

This is what Nintendo consistantly says their approach is, these are the games they make, and this is what people who identify themselves as casual gamers are buying.  Being casual doesn't mean only a genre of minigames; it means whatever people who don't buy much in games buy.  Targeting a younger audiance doesn't man no shooters, it means no blood-splattered photo-realistic shooters that make Timmy wet his bed.

[Strazos]

Stray, what are you talking about that the "casual" market isn't worth spending money on? The Wii has been making money from Day One.

Has Microsoft's console division ever turned a profit? How long did it take them, and how many sales did it take?



And as was said earlier, while the Wii may attract lots of nontraditional gamers, some of them will become obsessed with games to a varying degree. This isn't exactly a "barbarians at the gate" situation.

[stray]

Stray, what are you talking about that the "casual" market isn't worth spending money on? The Wii has been making money from Day One.

Has Microsoft's console division ever turned a profit? How long did it take them, and how many sales did it take?



And as was said earlier, while the Wii may attract lots of nontraditional gamers, some of them will become obsessed with games to a varying degree. This isn't exactly a "barbarians at the gate" situation.

It's not a matter of whether casuals buy the hardware. They will. Possibily fuckloads of it.

It's a matter of whether they will look at the hardware in the same way as a gamer. Or even a young gamer.

How open will casuals be to games besides their entry purchases? Will they basically look at it like a fun toy? A single game system, virtually no different than a Sudoku keychain device -- or like a boardgame -- just more sophisticated? Will it have as limited a use to them as a swimming pool or karaoke machine, or will it be an actual gaming platform to them (something with varied possibilities, but at a $50 per game cost)? Will they buy enough third party titles to even have a modest library (and by library, I don't mean anything out of ordinary)?

And how you will you get these people to even discover those new games in the first place? The entire gaming industry is built a certain way to mainly appeal to gamers. Appealing to casuals, outside the very rare occassions where the non gaming press is fellating something in front of them, is very hard to achieve.

And again, there is nothing wrong with casual games. I'm not saying that, and will never say it. There's just something wrong with the idea of a system for casuals. If you make casual games, you're still better off targeting gamers with casual interests, rather than the casuals themselves. At least the former market is somewhat dependable. If you get lucky and happen to win over the casuals too, then great.

[Alkiera]

Well, it goes back to me saying it's a gamer's market. There isn't even a reliable marketing strategy in place for these other people, and Nintendo only has a game company's experience to draw from. They sure as hell can't use traditional gamer strategies for casuals, to say the least. This isn't Field of Dreams. Nintendo could very well make a thousand great casual games. Doesn't necessarily mean those people are going to buy them though. Or even know about them.

This isn't rocket science.  They just have to advertise outside of EBStop.  Nigh unto everyone walks through Wal*Mart, especially those in the groups Zepp mentioned.  They all watch TV.  Millions of people buy millions of products without having to go out and look for a solution to the problem.  We've even come up with a name for the process of letting people know about products, it's called 'advertising'.  If you want to hit a big market, you really need it.

Frankly, all the 'gamers research, they pre-order, they anticipate upcoming games, they work hard to enjoy games' stuff is begining to sound like the Vanbois... 'Don't listen to them, those posers aren't willing to camp EBStop for the next game.  It's not our fault they haven't put in the time(sitting on their butt in the early AM) required to earn the newest console!  They don't know what a good game is!  Look at my shelf of lewts!  I can't count how many times we've raided BestBuy.  We have it on farm status.'

That is HardKore, guys.  All those people you guys complain about in the MMO forum?  You're THEM.

--
Alkiera

[stray]

Never said anything about preordering. Don't put words in my mouth.

Never used the term "research" either. You're making it sound way too serious. I'm just talking about initiative.

Anticipating upcoming games -- hardly "Hardcore". I suppose people who antipate albums and films are hardcore too?


None of this is to say I'm not hardcore though. I am. I never denied that once. The gamers I'm talking here are just gamers, another category entirely.

[Yegolev]

Burn!

Also, this is way more than five thoughts.

[stray]

Heh. I'm now giving up on this argument though (I'm sure that'll please everyone).

I've said everything I needed to say, and then some.

So I'll just say now that, as far as a "casual" game I'd like to see on the Wii:

A maestro game. Conducting baton simulation for the win. It'll be the Guitar Hero for chin stroky 50 somethings :-D

[sigil]

Heh. I'm now giving up on this argument though (I'm sure that'll please everyone).

I've said everything I needed to say, and then some.

So I'll just say now that, as far as a "casual" game I'd like to see on the Wii:

A maestro game. Conducting baton simulation for the win. It'll be the Guitar Hero for chin stroky 50 somethings :-D

Like this?

I picked up the Wii last week, Taxes came in, and the wife wanted it for the VC. It's the number one used electronic device in the house now, after tivo. Learning how to use the zoom feature properly on the internet channel means I don't have to get up to the PC to read the boards I follow.  I get my weather, headlines, and forums in about 15 minutes in the morning. As it stands right now, it's more convenient than what I was doing in the morning, and gives me more time to do a morning workout and get ready for work.

My Wife's happy because  OOT came out today. 

I play my PS2 for winning 11, and that's about it. But I am not like most of you, when it comes to your gaming interests.

[stray]

Like this?

Shit. Yeah, exactly. Cool idea.

[HaemishM]

The reason why I care is because I fear those casuals won't support the industry anywhere close to how gamers do. I would go so far as to say that I'd be surprised if they bought more than five games during a console's lifetime. Especially the majority of them.

Except there's a whole lot more of THEM than there are of us, which means if they only buy 5 games during the console's lifetime, their numbers still match or exceed ours.

More money for the game industry. Why is that a bad thing?

[stray]

I said I was finished with that argument, but I should say:

Good point.

[schild]

Stray is worried about games becoming homogenized shit to appeal to everyone - like WoW.

I agree with that.

More money for the industry assumes that people like us KEEP buying minigame half-assed bullshit. Ya know what, that's not going to happen. People will get tired of it and people will stop buying it. Old people and young people. This isn't an endless wave Nintendo can ride. At least not in America.

[HaemishM]

How open will casuals be to games besides their entry purchases? Will they basically look at it like a fun toy? A single game system, virtually no different than a Sudoku keychain device -- or like a boardgame -- just more sophisticated? Will it have as limited a use to them as a swimming pool or karaoke machine, or will it be an actual gaming platform to them (something with varied possibilities, but at a $50 per game cost)? Will they buy enough third party titles to even have a modest library (and by library, I don't mean anything out of ordinary)?

Again, they don't have to buy 15 titles. Every single piece of hardware is sold at a profit, and every game will mean profit to Nintendo. I'm not exactly sure what calamity you think will befall Nintendo for not catering to the overcatered hardcore gamer fanatic.

And how you will you get these people to even discover those new games in the first place?

The same way you get them to discover any other product, you market to them. TV ads, magazine ads, advertorials in magazines where your target audience reads, web sites, kiosks, spots in Wal-Mart's ad circulars, promos with big-chain retailers, as well as things that are free such as Colbert's mention of the Wii back in December. What's funny is that the casual non-gamer is actually open to MORE forms of marketing than the gamer whose information is often restricted to very gamer-niche-oriented marketing channels.

The entire gaming industry is built a certain way to mainly appeal to gamers.

And that's done so well for the game industry so far. Oh wait, no it hasn't, because only a few larger publishers and hardware manufacturers can succeed fighting over the same retard tater tot that is the hardcore gamer's market. The gaming industry has been fucked for a while now because of the way it's been structured. See the PC Gaming market for an example of fewer and fewer dev houses in a profitable industry. Why? Because it's structured to funnel money up to the top and it isn't growing its market beyond the already entrenched hardcore gamer market.

Appealing to casuals, outside the very rare occassions where the non gaming press is fellating something in front of them, is very hard to achieve.

Correct, but the spoils are much much higher than just appealing to the same old market that Nintendo is already 3rd dog in. Nintendo has nothing to lose and everything to gain by targeting their system at casual users. To try to target an HD, hardcore gamer's market would not only be a task sure to keep them relegated to 3rd place, it would also break their cardinal rule, never sell something for a loss.

[Alkiera]

Stray is worried about games becoming homogenized shit to appeal to everyone - like WoW.

I agree with that.

More money for the industry assumes that people like us KEEP buying minigame half-assed bullshit. Ya know what, that's not going to happen. People will get tired of it and people will stop buying it. Old people and young people. This isn't an endless wave Nintendo can ride. At least not in America.

Well, if we continue the regular comparison of games to movies.... they probably can.  However, there will be games that appeal to others, just as in the movie industry.  Perhaps there will still be a reason for EBStops, they'll be like the arthouse theater; stuff comes there that isn't mainstream, that can't be found in the regular store, but instead of films from Miyazaki, you'll get games from Nippon Ichi Software.

--
Alkiera

[HaemishM]

Stray is worried about games becoming homogenized shit to appeal to everyone - like WoW.

I agree with that.

That happened with the PS2 and the funneling of profits from indy dev houses to large publishers. That happened with the total numbers of the video game industry rivaling, then surpassing the movie industry. That shit has been happening and will continue to happen, and will happen faster now that 2 of the 3 consoles are producing HD games with budgets 2x to 4x higher than the previous generation. The only saving grace is that now all 3 consoles have download-enabled marketplaces as a way to sell older/indy-developed simpler games for cheap.

[Margalis]

Large budgets are far and away the #1 cause of homogenization. This is true in movies as well.

[Roac]

Large budgets are far and away the #1 cause of homogenization. This is true in movies as well.

Low budget movies are still being made, too.

[Margalis]

True. My point is just that more money spent on a game/movie almost directly correlates to fewer chances taken and general predictability.

[stray]

I had to reconsider something...

I'm actually not hardcore. 

Right on the borderline maybe. I've never waited in afterhour lines for a game or game machine. I've never died in a contest for a gaming machine. I don't go to gaming shows, events, or tournaments. Hardly ever preorder -- I just scour the earth on launch day. I buy a lot of games though. And try to follow the industry, follow games for certain teams/devs, etc.. as I do the music and film industry.

[schild]

One would argue that given the amount of energy spent not having a preorder on launch day is far more hardcore than sitting at a store playing a portable for a few hours.

Honestly, the only thing that came out of that post is I LIKE GAMES BUT I DON'T WANT TO STOP PLAYING TO MAKE A PREORDER.

You're more hardcore than me.

[stray]

Well, it's not that I don't want to preorder. I just don't think about it. If I played games constantly like that would suggest though, then I'd be in terrible shape. And you've seen me.

Purchasing habits-wise though, I'd say I'm hardcore. I'm just not very involved in some of those other secondary issues.

[EDIT] Lets see, I have 46 games on the PS2. Not counting stuff I've sold. Probably at least 70 total since 2000. Also went through 3 PS2's.

5 on the PS3.

Sold my XBox, and gave away my Cube (neither of which I had for long). Only a handful of games on the GC. Probably at least 15 on the XB. A handful of games on the DS as well (which I haven't even touched in a year).

Pretty much a cabinet full of PC games, just starting from 2003. Counting that and online purchases, it's probably in the 30ish range.

[schild]

Huh. I wonder if I should try that thread again where people take pictures of how their games are organized. I understand it's the geekiest thing ever. But I'm always looking for something more efficient, though I think I've got it pretty down pat now.

[stray]

I shove my PS2 boxes in a closet, and keep the discs in a binder. 

The PC boxes are a mess. Just shoved in a shelf within my entertainment center.

[Roac]

I just keep my games in my entertainment center in the living room, stacked upright side by side along with DVDs and VHS cassettes (the latter which are almost all Disney stuffs).  Nothing crazy, but I don't have but maybe... 20-30 games between the Wii, GC, and PS2.  A manageable amount anyway.