f13.net

This has been all over the net the last few days, and I am suprised we didn't see it here. I guess "Anonymous" has declared war on Scientology. Along with other less effective groups.

Here are some links. It starts with this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCbKv9yiLiQ&e

and then here are some stories about it.

http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2008/01/anonymous-attac.html
http://apcmag.com/7905/anonymous_threatens_to_dismantle_church_of_scientology_via_internet
http://mensnewsdaily.com/2008/01/23/anonymous-releases-statements-outlining-war-on-scientology/

Here is their wiki: http://www.partyvan.info/index.php/Project_Chanology

Some time last night they hacked the Scientology server and downloaded some internal docs that I guess are pretty crazy, and it was number 1 on digg.

Also this went up earlier today
(http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/460/1201116421097ig4.jpg)

No time to read more about this, but if it is true then that's  :awesome_for_real:^3

God I love this. I think CJ and I are going to need to don our masks and give those elegant fucks a frontpage salute.

I prefer exposing cults for what they really are as a tactic instead of censorship.  When you tell a group that something is bad for them, a percentage sees it as immediately attractive.  This way, people can see just how ridiculous the whole thing is. 

Le grand awesome.

You gotta stop saying 'le.' It's killing me. Funny the first 200 times.

Not so much the second 400 times.

Basically, le overkill.

How about "En Fuego!"

Better?

Uhm.

I'll have to ask The People.

The People say...

No, not really. This isn't a sitcom. Catchphrases are for sitcoms.

Awesome. For reals.

I blame Freddy for your profound lack of humour this day.

I've been seriously thinking about getting a Guy Fawkes mask and picketing the area around the SF branch with a "Free Xenu" sign.

I have 4 guy fawkes masks. They're all awesome.

It was kicked around over here (http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=11596.0).  But yes, much  :awesome_for_real: 

I think this is the first time and only time you'll ever see me say 'hooray for 4chan'.

The Internet and Germany are allies in the war against Scientology.  Could any force hope to stand against their combined might?

We just need Italy and Japan and we'll have ourselves an Axis of  :awesome_for_real:.

http://gawker.com/5002269/the-cruise-indoctrination-video-scientology-tried-to-suppress

This is a video of Tom Cruise talking about Scientology that the church attempted to have removed from the Internet.  They're still attempting, as far as I can tell, but this site refuses to take it down.  This is, apparently, the spark that ignited this.

That is in the other thread (http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=11596.0), too.   Of course it's a long rambling read to find that out. :-)

Im sure SA is having brain explosion issues right now.  They generally loathe Hubbard's crew, yet they loathe the Chans just as much.

Don't approve of the illegal activities Anon is doing though.

The Feb 10 thing is how they should do it. 

Public displays are tricky when there are lawyers involved.

The call does specifically say, though, that even though the various Internet factions may hate each other, it's time to put aside those differences to bring down this cult.  I can't help but agree- really, is the hate that SA has for the chans justified by actual damage the chans have done to actual living people, money they've swindled, minds they've corrupted, or is it just Internet e-peen Hatfield VS McCoy bullshit?

I don't pretend to follow this shit, but my money is on the latter.

It's just vogue to shit on 4chan on SA, like furries. Basically the perception is that they're a bunch of pathetic no-lifers who fap to lolicon and tentacle rape porn when not making stupid stunts and inventing hilarious memes and running them into the ground and passing them off to the rest of the internet.

I would wager that a lot of the anonymous folks are some of the smartest people on the internet.

Also, yes, funnier than uhm, anyone.

I used to post on SA since compared to the wussies on RPGnet, it was a breath of fresh air.
The problem was they hate too much and it gets annoying.  Helldump pretty much ruined the site IMHO.  (Its a section devoted to hating the rest of the forum.  No shit.  Of course then there is their spinoff forum SASS, which complains people at SA are too nice and should be more intolerant and full of mean hatred for everyone.  Yeah.  This confuses and frightens me.)

People in the Helldump section Net Detective any subforum they have decided is full of bad people so they can prove they are bad people. 
Even though they got rid of some scumbags, this really rubs me the wrong way.  People I have mentioned this to who were close to joining SA thought it was pretty fucked too. 
I always thought forums are supposed to be about interesting discussion, which doesn't always mean agreeing with one another.
But I guess I am in the minority there.  (Let's face it.  Most webforums turn into groupthink eventually.  Even giant ones like SA.  Little ones like RPG Codex and NMA are more obvious about it.)

Ok.. this is too tangential to the topic at hand.   

Holy shit, did anyone actually watch that Cruise video all the way through?

They awarded him the 'Freedom Medal of Valor'?  Is that not the stupidest name for a medal ever?  Was it invented by a 12-year old?  Who are the fucking dolts that this sort of stuff impresses?

It is a much higher honor than the Montgomery Burns Award for Outstanding Achievement in the Field of Excellence.

You just need to avoid fyad, helldump, byob, and half of gbs to keep your sanity.

I pretty-much just post in games. If there's even the tiniest, smallest gripe you could have about a game someone will bitch about it in the game's thread. I like knowing all the bad parts going in because it's so easy to find the good points and you guys don't cover enough games that aren't schild saying it's robot jesus and 2 people saying "I should pick this up". :x Plus sometimes there's good discussion and you can always count on baldur's gate threads to surface so you can talk about it again (I don't know why I like this). Let's play is alright too if you find a good one.

I don't even know how you could post in GBS, threads move too fast and like 10 people know eachother and everyone else is just some random talking shit. The community is just way too big for anything but a nice information dump for games. Imagine a forum with 10 lamaros' saying people are racist, 10 Dash's... well I think that's enough to give you the picture. Although, the occasionally funny thread makes GBS worth skimming occasionally.

(Repeating some of what I posted on January 21 in Politics.)
The following comment has been widely posted on lots of YouTube videos:

[This comment is no longer available due to a copyright claim by Church of Scientology International]

With so many different accounts posting that, it seems to the average user that Scientology is actually forcing YouTube to police comments.

Anonymous prank call: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNrsZQfAtFI
Clips of TV coverage: http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=CHANOLOGYPROJECT

I'm not sure if this is all such a good idea for Anonymous, because it will bring moar fame, moar newfags. The extra attention and wider participation could result in people getting caught. A few high profile jailings would make this only for the hardcore. Hope not though.

Le Ayla.

You got me on my knees.

I love how the music loop in the recruitment video is evocative of the mission impossible theme.

Me and tom cruise are going to zip line into the closet and wrestle some thetans.

Yes, and bits of the other 5 in the same series that Gawker doesn't have.  The medal sounds stupid, but was brilliant marketing by Scientology.  He's (almost literally) the robot Jesus of their cult, so this move was nothing more than a way for them to throw him in the internal limelight and drum up more support within their own ranks.  Further, it's a way to slap a (further) seal of approval on their brand of crazy.  If you're starting to get into Scientology and start to doubt what you're doing because things just sound fucked up... well, here's super-cool Tom Cruise jabbering on about it and he's getting a damn medal.  Also, keep in mind this was intended to be internal-only. 

I believe that the 'Freedom Medal of Valor' drops from Illidan.

Not for my guild. :tantrum:

Le VanCleef.

No one likes le faggot.

(http://5oh.net/thetansoc0.jpg)

 :awesome_for_real:
This is why I come to the internet!
 :grin:

Le MonSole.


Seriously, you can't ask for seriousness in a Scientology thread.  That way lies Madness.

Uh, I didn't ask for seriousness?

No.


(http://www.centralfm.com/i/suggs.gif) <--- That way lies Madness

Le Internet - Business grave


Jumping back to an earlier tangent - one of the amusing things about Teh Haet directed at 4chan from SA is that 4Chan was a spinoff from ADTRW (SA anime forum) in the first place.

Suggs is doing Fish Finger adverts at the moment.  It's really sad.

It's got to be a step up from that terrible karaoke quiz he used to host on Channel 5.

Did I ever tell you that you're my hero?

Ahahahah, the fucking retards from the *Chans have taken time away from posting lolcats and CP to "declare war" on Scientology? These are the same people that mustered an amazing 5 neckbeards to picket a furry convention in the cold rain (and the furries actually took mercy on them and gave them umbrellas).

WE ARE ANONYMOUS, WE KNOWS OUR DOWNLOADABLE DDOS PROGRAMS, WE KNOW HOW TO REPEAT LAME MEMES, WE ARE LEGION WHEN IT COMES TO CALLING TOM GREEN'S SHOW AND GRIEFING HABBO HOTEL, WE ARE LARGELY 14 YEARS OLD, WE ARE PUMPED UP WITH SELF CONFIDENCE BECAUSE WE GOT A MENTION ON A LOCAL NEWS CHANNEL

SA Goons don't have the attention span for this shit, GameFAQs is even more retarded than it was when I signed up there when I was...shit, I think I was 16 when the forums first opened there. YouTubers are only interested in faux-internet celebrities, Ron Paul, and poorly made 9/11 Truth videos, and the fratkids who use facebook are too stupid to use a computer for anything else.

What a fucking joke. They should be embarrassed.

Just for perspective, I was a constant lurker on SA before even the eFront days, I was one of the first thousand people to sign up on GameFAQ's boards, and I'm an original /b/tard as embarrassed as it makes me to say that.

I want to spit in the face of the Wired writer who thought this was worth the bandwidth to post.

Which makes them about 900x more interesting and important than scientology.

Scientology is about as sinister and evil as a tax evasion/extortion scam can get but bitch please, 4chan? Important? Meaningful? Worth news? HACKERS? 'powerful' enough to kick Scientology off the internet?

This is a joke. 4chan needs to stick to it's little corner niche of the internet.

Whether or not it's a joke, it's still hilarious and interesting.

We need to get hold of the secret chan documents and reveal their pyramid scheme to the world!


What is chan anyway?

I'm pretty sure I've seen this stuff mentioned elsewhere, but it's worth reposting:

Operation Freakout (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Freakout)
Operation Snow White (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Snow_White)

Oh, I know about that. They are responsible for people's deaths and media manipulation, and they're still pursuing some old guy who made mean posts about them on usenet.

I think 4chan terrorizing scientology, even on the internet, is fantastic. Sorry. I simply disagree with you. Serious, useful, or not, it's fucking hilarious and awesome.

Also, it's more impressive than anything anyone else has done against them. Which amounts to, let me calculate, nothing. No one has done shit. And germany is dragging their heels on the witchhunt.

2chan is a Japanese only image/discussion board with categories for just about everything under the sun. It's pretty fucking huge. 4chan is basically the English/US version of that. There's boards for a lot of different topics, the one in question is /b/ which is "random". It's basically just a place to be anonymous and retarded on the internet. Like most internet subculture things it has its own lingo and a gigantic amount of really fucking stupid memes ("TEH REI", Desu, etc). Since it's a gigantic anonymous board of assholes they can occasionally get together and grief people for fun. They harassed Tom Green's show for quite a while, they griefed the living shit out of Habbo Hotel a few times, as well as a few other small things. The place is 90% "newfags" and children from GameFAQs now though who fancy themselves internet revolutionaries or something.

4chan's memes have gotten around a bit. Epic Fail Guy is about the best known one here I would say.

It's funny but I roll my eyes every time I see it getting press.

Rules 1 and 2 motherfuckers!

But Anonymous can include anyone, so it's not just them terrorising scientology. The publicity will generate wider participation in what they are doing than just regular imageboard users, but still calling themselves Anonymous. So it really does become the Internet vs Scientology, not lolcats anonymous.

Press attention hurts Scientology more than anything else, so I see it as a very positive thing.

This put me on the floor!

(http://encyclopediadramatica.com/images/2/28/Cruisewebsite.jpg)

This whole deal has brought me the most lulz evah.

Even the lolcatz are participating

(http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/iisanonimusca128456939528125000.jpg)

Speaking of where is my website: 404 at http://www.partyvan.info/index.php/Project_Chanology

Does this mean Anonymous is now officially "fair game"?

Actually, it was suspended for usage. It looks like the site was just on shitty hosting.

Or they just got bored. 

"We will never relent in our ceaseless struggle against the tyrannical Church of Scient.. .oh, look.  New shiny!  Wait, where was I?"

And they're back in business.

While chan attempts are pitful at best, the media really caught on to it and are using it to basically wipe the floor with Scientology.

One thing can be said about *Chan. They really, badly hate scientology. And odds are, this brought them together against a common enemy. It will take more than shiny to make them bored this time.

Can you blame them though?

L. Ron Hubbard was a creative liar with an over inflated sense of self worth on top of being shockingly sick in the head. He created an alternate reality where the people who were trying to make him realize this (psychologists) were evil. The fact that anyone could be so stupid as to mistake these paranoid schizophrenic ramblings as a religion is enough to make your blood boil if you let yourself think about it.

I don't believe violence is a solution, but maybe the world would be a better place if Vikings were still around. Just randomly, without explanation. Suddenly a crude battering ram breaks open the CoS headquarters, all it's wealth is taken, and David Miscaivige is dragged out into the street to have his rib cage pried open to reveal his lungs taking their last few panicked breaths.

...

 :hello_thar:

Anonymous kids battle Scientology kids in streets (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cGtUd_zBEA)

Tom Cruise must be so scared.

Is it wrong to admit that I do kind of want to head back to London for this on the 10th? Aside from the possibility of Scientologists linking this back to me? Fur teh lulz.

Yeah, that was pathetic. Especially given that the Scientologist they sent out was really just a nice guy (as many are.) Those kids could seriously benefit from some lessons in rhetoric - but arguing with a scientologist is useless anyways.

Here are some clips of scientologists who are NOT nice guys: http://xenutv.bogie.nl/originals/4th.htm

The best part is the tactic they finally have to resort to to get rid of the guy: wearing him out because he's fat. But he gets in some great cracks along the way "Don't look this man in the eyes, he's an OC8! He can kill you with a thought!"

/sadf

Anonymous would do so much better if they pooled money to pay Sasha Baron Cohen to come and destroy Scientology for them.  If your sole tactic is to grief someone, you may as well hire a professional griefer who can do it much better.

I don't think their goal is to "punk" scientology.

At this point, Anonymous is practically manipulating the press. It's impressive. Ho ho ho, did you see what I did there? I did. It was awesome.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrkchXCzY70

The call to arms for the 10th of Feb may well backfire, if there's a weak turnout.

Those videos are great.

Also, already mapped the location of the Phoenix scientology center. And my guy fawkes masks lay waiting.

oh hay look what picture i found

Big deal.  Everyone has one.

(http://blogs.indiewire.com/reverseshot/archives/vforvendetta.bmp)

I even have one.  Well, it's only a couple inches tall and came with the DvD, but I still have one!

I use mine for a cup

http://www.warrenellis.com/?p=5523

We'll see how impressed Warren Ellis is with anonymous when like six people show up to actually carry out the menacing threat posted by one guy on youtube.  Having a mobile mob mind roaming around on the Internet is fine and dandy, but when it comes time to actually act, the inherent laziness of mankind surfaces and makes their efforts fail spectacularly.

Plus, your target has to give a fuck.  That was the achilles heel in their cunning 'picket the fur con' plan.  The furries didn't even begin to give a fuck; fursuiters swarmed out to have their pictures taken with the picketers.  Anyone who looks forward to putting on a poorly-made theme park mascot outfit and running around in public in it is probably past being fazed by other peoples' opinions.

The scientologists do give a fuck, which is a big step up over the furry thing.  But I suspect that the whole lazy issue is going to come back up and sink this boat like it did the last.

Maybe the furries and CoS could join forces.  I bet Tom Cruise yiffs.

:ye_gods:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHseRSX42v8&feature=related

I LOL'ed.

So did I, until I realized they would have to kill me to not be a SP anymore - and they would be perfectly happy to do so.

Either that or lock you in a closet with Tom Cruise. YOU WONT do it infront of HIM!

I'll do it in front of him.  I'll do it on his face.  Pampered bitch.

Be careful, he's an OT7. He can make your balls fall off with a single thought. Try to be an SP around him and I bet he gets that "I'm crazy" look on his crazy face.

Plus:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=I4jo6KkFfIc&feature=related

Yeah, maybe he'll jump on my couch and screw up the springs so I have to buy a new one.

(http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t11/wayabvpar/chappeleRickJamesDirtyUpCouch.gif)

http://harbl.wetfish.net/cosplay/ <- Map of locations

http://forums.enturbulation.org/viewforum.php?f=2 <- Forum for organization

Guys. This scientology shit is fucking crazy.

Just crazy. I've read through a handful of the dox, I'm almost tempted to just post the entire thing on f13's frontpage.

From Child Dianetics (the fucking Intro for fuck's sake!)

I'm pretty sure these documents are enough to get every scientologist dog child taken away from their owner parents.

To be fair, isn't the intro sarcastically saying that training your child as a dog is a bad idea. I think they are saying you can do it, but at that point you've crossed a line into preferring control instead of raising your child. I could be wrong on that, but I read it that way. Then again, the first part seems to say, don't do shit when your child breaks his stuff in your face, which sounds like some sort of California weird-ass no consequences parenting.

http://www.economist.com/world/international/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10609174

Economist link.

Also, lawyers, as a "reporter" and someone who didn't steal the dox, would I be in the wrong in ANY WAY putting them on the f13 frontpage?

Or should I just post a series of links?

My gut reaction as a non-law-talking-guy says links are probably safer than specifically hosting stolen private intellectual property.

Doesn't matter what your rights really are - if they find out about you, and care about the number of eyeballs you get, they may well contact you via lawyers.  Up to you whether you want to roll those dice.

However, it would be awesome if you do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyZD8zBesqs

Awesome. Just awesome.

Paelos is right about the dog metaphor, I think. The message is still batshit crazy and irresponsible.

L. Ron Hubbard did talk more seriously about dogs:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSv7tz1Ygks

This is real actual part of what high ranking scientologists believe happened when the universe was created: we were all crapped out of a dog.

Of course now that I've told you this, your R6 implant should be firing off aaaaaany second now and you will die of pneumonia.

Don't play politics with the front page.  Please.

This isn't politics. It's good vs. evil. Or at least anti-hero vs evil.

The best comic book writers couldn't have come up with a situation this fantastic.

Try following it more. And you'll see why.

Should we add them to the Axis of Evil?  It's absolutely political, it's legal, and it's very possibly going to get dangerous when Scientology decides to fight back.  They probably have more money than the Mormons do.

Scientology can have all the money in the world for this.

What makes it so fantastic, is they really have nobody to sue.

They have an enemy worse than the RIAA did with MP3 downloaders.

Basically, biggest threat to a cult. Ever.

You have to admit, what they believe in and subscribe to does kind of cross the thresholds of normal fantasy into SUPER-FANTASY! I can even argue for other major religious beliefs having political angles, but Scientology is just silly and dangerous at the same time. I'd love to see a similar torch lit under all Christian Televangalists who are stealing money from their believers in a similar manner.

That's because they attack something you believe in, Paelos.

Non-christians use those televangelists as a key point as to why christians are fucking crazy.

On that same note, they are nowhere near as dangerous or threatening as the CoS.

Televangelists are merely money-grubbing whores. Scienos are... a clear and present danger.

You're getting all goofy again. I just want to warn you in advance before the crash.

You mean when he's standing outside some scientology building by himself with a Guy Fawkes mask in his backpack that he won't put on once he realizes nobody else is there?

Oh, come on.  Paelos, I am not attacking you, let me say this up front.  You still have a standing offer of a free lunch anytime at any Atlanta eatery within range of my office.  That said, you can't really argue about which religion is more or less ridiculous.  By comparison, my religion is the least ridiculous of (most of) them.  I'd accept arguments which call Hubbard and/or his motives into question, but structure of a religion is not something one can factually debate.  In my opinion.

There's a few 20 signed up for the phoenix protest. I'm not sure what the repercussions would be if I was recognized, whatwith working at GoDaddy, my details being posted uhmmm all over the internet, and easily recognized features.

If I said the CoS didn't scare me, I'd be lying.

Edit: Also, didn't we already decide in another thread that CoS isn't a religion? Let's not do that again. It gives too much credence to a terrorist group.

Like Schild said, Scientology isn't a religion. He's right there's no need to walk that line. I'm just saying in terms of whacky things I've heard in my life, Scientology pretty much stands out as something I'd have to wonder why people even entertain as a reality. There are a few things that make that list, but honestly the shit they put out reads like it was written for a comic book. I figured the Jedi cult would have taken off better.

Jedi need not money.

Religions, even fake ones, and especially cults need money. And lots of it.

See, here's the problem with me entering this discussion: I don't draw a line between Scientology and Christianity.  More parallels than perpendiculars, if you ask me.  Which you didn't, so I'm fine with dropping it.

For your benefit I assume you don't enter the politics forum at the risk of death then.

Because your misconceptions were addressed there more than enough, thats why nobody else wants to do that dance a second time.

That place reeks of sweat and shame.

Yeah, but if we discuss the same things here again, the whole forum will!

You can't breach the containment field!

I can't remember where I heard it, but someone pointed out there is a 60s Fantastic Four comic book with an alien overlord called Xemu.  It was apparently released a year or so earlier than when Hubbard's scheme popped up.
Apparently the whole comic is suspiciously similar to their mythology...

And even if nobody shows up to those Feb 10 things some folks are doing, the sheer NOISE Anonymous has done has put more knowledge of what they do out there.  Its already done massive damage to the organization.

Schild, be sure that your state allows people to wear masks in public.  In some states it's legal so long as you aren't being naughty, but in others it's flat-out illegal, and you probably wouldn't care to get hauled off by cops, or worse, look like a douche in public by showing up in a mask, only to have to take it off after being scolded by a cop.

The United States of America, standing for freedom since 1775.

The problem with a jedi religion is that people know it's not true because it was made up for the express purpose of being put into a made-up universe. I've pretty sure you can get people to believe anything at all that cannot be proven if you market it as a religious truth but if it starts of as fiction it's got no chance. Jedi religion is just people goofing off.

See, I don't really care what Scientologists believe.  I care what they, as an organization, do both to their own members and non-members.  If you thought it rained chickens ever Friday, but somehow made the world a better place, I'd give you a pass.  Instead, Scientology hurts people, kills people, breaks laws, harms relationships, extorts people, bullies people, lies to people, and is generally unpleasant.  If this were the exception they might still get a pass - but instead it's the norm.  Their SOP is to be as much of an asshole as it takes to keep the money flowing, and the ends do justify the means. 

It's not that "they do bad things", either.  Any organization will do bad things, have members who exploit volunteers/members, and so forth.  Nothing is immune from the ills of human behavior, and I accept that enough to excuse organizations which make attempts at keeping such behavior to a minimum.  Scientology encourages it. 

Those religions are the best religions. And don't forget to partake of a hot dog without a bun today, in memory of the Original Snub.

If only Frank Herbert or Douglas Adams had made religions... The world would be a better place.

Fnord

And thus a wandering visit to wikipedia was born.

Gaining knowledge of the Paratheo-Anametamystikhood Of Eris Esoteric is but the first step to becoming a POPE.

This page (http://www.anapsid.org/cnd/mcs/maskcodes.html) is aimed at answering that question, but it's far from complete and doesn't have an entry in Arizona.  It looks like masks are fine in California as long as you're not doing something else illegal while wearing one.

Don't put anything on ze frontpage.
1) It's not related to gaming in any way.


2) You will get fucked up in the ass big time.
You said scientos don't have anyone to sue for, well - if you put the docs (or even links to them), they will have someone - you. Remember, those guys don't really care for law, they might as well sue you for using copyvio on fonts used on front pag, or crooked signature on invoice from ten years ago. The whole point of anonymous protest is well, remaining anonymous. Posting stolen doxs under well, essentially your own name is contradiction to entire idea.

Shit, f13 exists and thrives partly because it wasn't meant be always related to gaming.

Anonymous Hackers Track Saboteur, Find and Punish the Wrong Guy (http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2008/01/anonymous-hac-1.html)

There are innocent casualties in any war.

Your avatar makes wonder what would happen if V was a red shirt on ST:TOS and waged war against the officers in revenge for countless red shirts who have scraficed so Kirk, Spock and Bones could live on.

I would watch that, buy the DVD and watch it again.

So now they're putting Scientology supporters' personal information on the internet for hundreds of people to call and threaten?  What happened to all the nonviolence?

Two words: Fair Game.

Aaannd...

They just lost all my support.
 :heartbreak:

You really can't blame joe bumblefuck for not knowing how to secure his wireless network. It's not hard, but we're probably talking about a guy who barely has time to set the time/date on his VCR, let alone be bothered by security keys and mac address filters. And no offense to him, either - he probably works hard to support his family and is an expert in his profession.

I still loathe the profiteering scam that is the church of scientology, but this is an unfortunate black eye for Anonymous' efforts.

So I'm the only one that thinks Scientologists should be tracked like sex offenders?

OK THEN.

Screw observation, I think the high ranking members of scientology should be blood eagled.

And I still support Anonymous in their crusade against scientology, even though this was a huge PR defeat for them. Their motives are sound, but the methods used by a small minority of people attaching themselves to this movement have been quite harmful and will continue to be a liability if not reigned in somehow.

Nah, many of us do. But having the goons chase down marginal or innocent people and having that make the news is not good for the cause. Anon is not going to be able to do this without some organization, and they are not very good at that.

This particular incident wasn't a marginal person being chased down, it was someone who had a trail of evidence implicating him in a major attack against one of the Chans.  That he turned out to be innocent is of course regrettable, but it's not like Anon is harassing innocent Scientologists at random.  IIRC there was a specific point in the Chanology writeup made about NOT being mean to people at the bottom rung of CoS since they're just victims.

There's lots of points in the chanology doctrine about Not Bottom Feeding.

In fact, they're quite organized. Too organized for a hive mind. Unfortunately, they went down a wrong lead.

Happens.

These guys will probably fuck up less than your standard police officer though. They're following their own plan very, very well.

Re: Xemu and F4

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/xemu.htm

LOLs.

Still trying to decide whether or not to show up on the 10th. My state doesn't allow masks, and I get the feeling CoS is going to do something ridiculous on the 10th. Like decide that the end times have actually, yes, arrived and start shooting people. I'm serious.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=IDh-POu8w-Q

You'd be more effective by choosing the busiest freeway in town and hanging a big paper sign on an overpass that day.

"Bored? Google: Operation *whatever you want it to say*"

The failure is going to come when the RL get together in London is a bust, and it gets blasted in the media as something nerdy and stupid.

Paelos, why do you have to be such a negative nancy? Keep that up and you'll be branded as an SP and confined for muzzled destimulation. (http://free-from-scientology.blogspot.com/2008/01/another-lisa-mcpherson-case-three.html)

I just don't see the need for a public demonstration yet. You're the internet for god's sake, your strength lies in anonymity and information warfare. Bringing it to the streets isn't effective in forwarding the message unless THOUSANDS show up, which I don't see happening.

I'd love to be wrong, and I'd love to watch Scientology choke on the collective outcry that their brand of hatred and greed has created. I wouldn't put betting money on it though.

Believe it or not, the world is not the internet. I sometimes lose sight of this fact myself being an IT professional and spending most of my recreation time on activities that involve the tubes. If the internet really changed anything, Ron Paul would be more than a painful politial joke.

I'd say this is exactly the time for a real demonstration. Keeping this thing on the internet is exactly what they need to not do - it's a battle that is already won. Any non-scientologist can get any info they want on the cult while Scientologists themselves employ software on their computers to block out certain sites. Couple that with the extensive internet coverage this has already received, and I don't see what else there is to accomplish here.

If a few goobers with a badly made sign can get this kind of attention, (http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZfKQ75F0XsA) what do you think that a well planned international protest will get?

It's time for this to go large, nationwide, worldwide - to get on the local news in every bumblefuck town cursed with a scientology church. Most of the people this will reach don't have any idea what scientology is beyond the association with Tom Cruise, and that is the potential for largest gain here.

I recently read that Nancy Cartwright (aka Bart Simpson) just gave 10 million dollars to CoS.

What ?


Fuck Me (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/sfgate/detail?blogid=7&entry_id=23858)


WHY ?

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/sfgate/detail?blogid=7&entry_id=23858

Too late.  Found it.

She's just a voice on the show so I won't get that upset over it, but seriously, fuck that chick. If it was someone like Groening, I'd be pissed, because The Simpsons is honestly one of my favorite shows and I'd hate to put it on my ban list.

Paelos, that kind of apathy is the reason scientology got to where it is today.

I'll watch the Simpsons in german from now on. That will show her!

What is it with the Hollywood crowd and Scientology anyway? Drinkwater problems or people being hit with the retard stick once they enter city limits?

Forget I asked. Attention whores and a 'religion' that tells them they can be godlike creatures if they just give enough money. A match made in heaven.

I actually mean the heaven, or even beyond that. In spaceships. With closets. Where Tom Cruise can hide in from those evil unbelievers and strange horny women.

We're still not exactly sure WHY Tom Cruise is in the closet, but I'm being joined now by singer/songwriter R. Kelly...

Man, you can cram that shit with walnuts.

I boycott any movie that fronts a Scientologist or any TV shows written or produced by Scientologists, but I won't boycott one of the two non-reality shows I watch because one cast member lost their mind. I won't punish people like Groening, Brooks, Simon, Azaria, Castenalleta, Kavner, Smith, and Shearer who all have done fantastic work as well as the writing staff who have no ties to the craziness. You have to draw a line somewhere because if you start boycotting entertainment for having one Scientologist on the panel in any form, you'll never watch anything. I will howerver boycott any of her producing projects, books, signings, or any organization to which she participates directly with.

This isn't about boycotting movies.

This is about protests. I couldn't care less if you watch the movies or not. But the time has come to tear down the church and with their lawyers, anonymous is the best group for that.

And I think you're insane. I don't see a mass protest doing diddly-shit. The only people that can destroy this church is a full-on government investigation that uncovers RICO-like activities, should they exist. Anonymous can only make a difference if they can hack into the back files, do corporate espionage that uncovers fraudulant financial documents, and then, the IRS gets involved by revoking their tax-free status and nailing them to the wall over their tax evasion. The church will crumble because you went after the money.

NOT because of a bunch of idiots took it to the streets. You hurt this church through their wallets and financials, not the public perception. They already know Scientology is stupid and nuts.

^^^ Actually not enough do.

Shit, people have hardly any idea of what their own governments are doing and even given the horseshit Fox News spews and how pussy most news outlets are, plenty of that info is easily obtained with little to no effort.

You expect them to know what a cult is up to?

You make me laugh thinking you can hit this thing in the wallet when ONE MEMBER is kicking in 10 mill.

I'm still fucking angry about that.  How many homeless would that help ?

Where do you think government investigations come from? Lobbying from well funded special interest groups. Public outrage.

Don't be a self hating nerd. These protests can mean something and will bring this wacko megalomaniacal cult of lying fruitsacks into the harsh light of public attention.

Some apathy is only to be expected: the media is going to report this initially as "Hey, look at these internet hackers! What a crazy thing to do!!! OH LAWD YOU HACKERS!" (http://www.tomstockton.us/images/funny_pictures/laughing_dog.jpg) But with worldwide protests it will become something else entirely regardless of what the media does with it.

Don't underestimate the intelligence of the common populace. They may be comfortable and warm with a lack of real challenges in their lives, but if they are confronted with a dramatic vision of Guy Fawkes protesters around the world they're going to start asking some questions, and might actually turn on their computer and do a search for scientology. (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=scientology)

After ignoring the official site (because they will want the real dirt,) they'll hit wikipedia or clambake and get all they were hoping for and more.

Those who already had strong feelings against scientology and thought they were alone (of which there are many,) will be validated.

Those who thought it was some kind of funny joke may discover something else. (http://youtube.com/watch?v=rCGP-0545EU)

But how else do you propose the bulk of society gets on board with this? And how do you think real change is going to happen without them?

Fake-Edit: Also, you can hurt them financially. You can get their taxable status as a religion reversed. You can bet they're still having a circle jerk over the fact that they pulled another one over on the government on that account.

Get the tax exempt status revoked, and get the real copies of their financials. You follow the money up to the top in those disbursements. If they are actually a huge money-laundering service, it would be very easy to spot by any forensic accountant. The top people get indicted for massive fraud and tax evasion, and they probably get brought up on RICO charges. They go to jail and the church crumbles when the filtering is brought to light.

It doesn't matter how much comes in. What you have to prove is where it's going, and that will hang them all. The infiltration into the IRS is the only reason these people haven't been looked at close enough already.

L Ron Hubbard himself was tried for fraud shortly before his death.  He died a fugitive.

L. Ron Hubbard was trained by a Native American shaman named "Old Joe" and was an honorary blood brother of the Blackfoot. He also studied under Chineese and Indian mystics. He graduated college with honors, and did important work on atomic theory. He was also a WW2 hero.

Except... the Blackfoot tribe has no such thing as a "blood brother" ceremony. While young L. Ron did visit China as a teen, the only thing he apparently learned was to complain about "chinks" in his diary. The only time he visited India was on a flight layover. He flunked out of school. And he was relieved of his command after lying about a Japanese sub he supposedly engaged in battle off the coast of Oregon, and creating an international incident by engaging in target practice in Mexican waters.

I swear, it's like reading the life story about that chronic liar kid in high school that was never quite comfortable in his own skin, so he lied about everything. Except that kid made a religion and people actually believe it. Doesn't it just make you  :drill: with righteous indignation?

Maybe the L. stands for LIAR.

His wikipedia entry is a good read if you like exposing charlatans: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L._Ron_Hubbard

Read this.

Seriously.

http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/religion/cult/l-ron-hubbard/

WAHAHAHA:


Lumberjack Fighter 2: The Thetan Warrior

Don't you mean Thetan Boogaloo?

I notice the end of that rotten article (excellent btw,) referenced Marshall Applewhite.

True story: While going to school I worked in a Radio Shack located in a San Diego suburb. This was like 95 or 96. Sometimes your regulars were weird people - Beardy McFatsmelly was my least favorite. Other times you just got a single shot of weirdness, like the 50 year old lady calmly doing her shopping while wearing a cat in the hat hat.

One of these one off weirdos was an old man wearing sweatpants who walked in and planted himself near the TV - not really watching it, but engaging anyone passing by in conversation. Not long conversations, mind you, as he seemed to be driving people out of my store.

I finished helping the customers who had been waiting for me, and addressed him briskly, "Is there anything I can help you with?" by which I meant "Buy something or leave." At which point he proceeds to tell me that the lions killing zebras on the discovery channel (which was playing on the TV) are evil. And they're like people that are evil too. Wishing to have no truck with this nonsense I responded, "I never really thought of that. So were you looking to buy something?"

He wandered out again soon afterwards. I guess I was like one of those lions and he was some kind of ball-less zebra, for just a couple years afterwards the heaven's gate thing happened, and that old man was of course Marshall Applewhite which I put together while watching the news coverage.

(P.S. I don't care what they call it, but someone needs to make a fighting game featuring L. Ron Hubbard engaging you with Lumberjack Fighting. After he wins he can taunt you with clever sayings like "Haha! Was my thetan too much for you?", "The first incident happened eleventynine quadrillion years ago... when I kicked your ass!" and "You must defeat my lumberjack chop to stand a chance!")

Wrong.

I had to personally educate both of my parents on the brutal insanity of Scientology.  My dad had already decided they were crazy, my mom didn't think they were any more out there or dangerous than someone like Ramtha- New Age silliness, but harmless and generally teaching good lessons even if making a bit of a profit from it.

I told them all about Xenu, Project Freakout and Project Snow White.

I halfway suspect that my mom would be receiving Scientology pamphlets in the mail had I not brought these things to her attention.

And both of my parents are slightly more well-informed and educated than your average American.  They know their politics- I may not agree with them, but they know them.

I don't want to be a dick about it, but your sample size sucks Llava. I'll go further, I care fuckall about the public perception personally. Assume you're an internet renegade attacking force taking something down. Go with your strengths. Use the best source of global information to put out useful information that might have an effect. Don't try to organize boring protests in the streets. That's the way our parents did it.

Infiltrate, hack, and inform. Send incriminating documents to the governement and post them globally. Take the machine down from the inside out while maintaining your anonymity.

Paelos, I'm not sure you understand that the powers of the internet pretty much end within the confines of the TCP/IP stack. Anonymous is not able to flex and bend the matrix around them.

If Neo were real, he'd be a /b/tard.

You sure about that?

I'm not against using the populace to prove a point. My point was that if you want to exert your influence on the masses, it takes nothing more than a message and the egomania to proclaim it as truth. That's how Scientology got where it was. If the truth is there, it's buried deep in the recesses of their own organization.

My point was to line up your soldiers and send them into the beast, not randomly try to amass the people in a show of solidarity. You recruit people to join the cause to take it down from the inside. Find the dirt rather than protesting the supposed injustices.

You don't send the soldiers in until diplomacy fails.

See, you want to see it mimic the crusades. Maybe you want to see both sides destroyed.

But really, if it comes to infiltration and destruction, anonymous would Go there is necessary. Right now, that's not an option. They need to exhaust all peaceful approaches first. And what's the first peaceful approach you can think of? Petition and protest. They're doing it right. You want them to do it...wrong...ly(?).

Anyway, point is, work from the bottom to the top. Don't jump into an empty pool head first.

More importantly, make the public side with you when the illegal wiretapping begins.

Edit: Using DDoS, Black Faxes, and random evil to make the media notice was a masterful stroke of brilliance.

The movement lost it's edge when it went public. Don't go public unless you've got the goods. What exactly are they protesting with? They have nothing but speculation and conjucture. It's TOO EARLY.

You mean aside from facts like Scientology being responsible for the largest infiltration of the US government ever?

Or the deaths known and unknown? Or the fact they ARE For-Profit and operate as a religion?

Paelos, of all people, you should be the most on board. These people tarnish all organized religion, not just their own.

Fine, just go forward with the little protest. I'm not on board. I think the tactics here suck. When the protest fails, the movement will lose steam because everyone will go, meh, and move on to the next stupid cause. Live on with the dreams of grandeur emerging from the bowels of cyberspace.

The average American won't give a shit because the few deaths were never criminally linked to the organization and the infiltration amounted to 5 years for the 11 people who were convicted thirty years ago. Honestly, this is not shocking shit. This is not OMG THEY ARE EMBEZZLING MILLIONS FROM THEIR PEOPLE AND HERE'S THE PROOF stuff.

uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh

ok

I'm willing to believe Schild. I'm willing to believe something that happened in the last DECADE that shows me these people are filtering money to themselves. Anything concrete. Please link it and I'll completely revert the past statements and come on board. I'll hop right in line. I'm dead serious about this.

May 2002 - Link (http://www.news.com/2100-1023-865936.html)

I think the bigger issue here is that Paelos has done zero research outside of maybe googling Snow White. And still decides to chime in.

Why even link to the google thing? Just link to what happened in January with the Tom Cruise videos.

Single-prong attacks aren't going to work on something as big as Scientology.  They have a lot of money, a lot of lawyers, and a lot of rubes.  Even if you wage a perfect information campaign against them and get their money stripped away by outraged governments, they'll still have their legions of adherents to whip more money out of.  The only way to decisively end them is to remove the adherents.  And that's going to be a bitch.  If the feds hadn't blown up the Davidians, they'd probably still be around today; you can't easily part a cultist from a cult.  Take away their leaders, take away the buildings, take away the money, and the cultists will still be gathering in living rooms to be culty together, and the whole thing will eventually reform with new leaders abusing and stealing from the victims.  With that in mind:

1. Stop the flow of recruits.  This is where revealing them to the public will do the most good.  If people start viewing them as a dangerous organization, they'll be less likely to fall for it.  But even if you cut out the new blood, you're left with all of the current members.  Logistics aside, money-supply for the cult aside, we're talking about a lot of people, some of whom are suffering.  That leads to

2. Get the current members out.  This is the hard part.  Set aside the content people to start with, you aren't getting them out shy of using force.  But there are plenty of people, according to accounts, who are being kept there.  Through force, coercion, blackmail, or family members being held by the cult.  We need to break those people out.  All of 'em.  There needs to be an organization dedicated to rescuing people out of Scientology.  This isn't a simple thing.  By the time a member's being kept on cult property, they usually have no cash left and no property, they could have a whole rainbow of mental traumas, and if they've been a member since childhood they're saddled with a useless education on top of it all.  So we're left with needing an organization that has the legal means to enter the place and extract people plus the financial resources for extensive rehab afterwards.  That pretty much restricts it to the governments, as it could get very messy if private citizens took it in their heads to break into private property.

I read the links, I saw the videos. I watch all the youtube stuff you've linked. I've looked through the belief structure stuff. The Xenu crap, the body Thetans, the levelling, the ding-grats, Clears, etc. I'm still trying to figure out where the people are pulling the frustration from on the taxes.

Most of the crimes listed by these critics were not convicted, or if they were it was for menial time. http://www.scientology-lies.com/crimesindex.html (http://www.scientology-lies.com/crimesindex.html) There's a list of them, go nuts. I could point to dozens of fraud cases in the Christian church as well, and they've all been nailed down by the government. Now, if you want to tell me that Scientology has now risen to the point where the government will completely turn a blind eye to the facts that are obviously out there, then we have a much larger problem.

Again, show me the money. Seriously. Where is this documentation? In other words, what have I missed?

I don't see how Scientology is worst than any other religion.  Do an interview with one of those dumbass from the bible belt and you'll get the same out of this world unrealistic crap. 

I prefer an organisation that steal cash from retards than an organisation than steal cash from retards while fucking the altar boy.
Not so long ago, you could steal an old women, kick her in the face, go to church, buy redemption with half the money, go directly to paradise.
Creationism?
Hardcore Islam? Blow yourself up in a pack of Jews and you'll get 77 virgins!
What about Buddhism?  What do you have to do has a blade of grass to move up the reincarnation chain?
 
:uhrr:

I'd replace "hardcore" with "brainwashed fanatical", but that's just me.

Otherwise, I'm scared to post in this thread  :ye_gods:

Edit: Spelling

The very fact that you put Buddhism in the same page (let alone same post) as Scientology leaves me little hope for you AT ALL.

Ah screw it, gonna jump in:

I can see Paelos' point. I don't think he's pulling the argue-through-obfuscation thing the Tobacco industry did or the anti-global warming folks do. But I do think if we're going to support the American way of thinking, people and groups are guilty only after being proven as such.

That doesn't mean the average TV news viewer hasn't already assigned blame, because the media has already assigned blame.

The purpose of the public protests is to get the media to look at all. They're not going to look at the internet activities of a bunch of self-styled radical hackers. They can't support the Internet as a fount of activity nor information because their business is to be that for people (sound familiar?). They still consider YouTube and usergen content the exception. So that internet nonsense can be ignored.

Public displays cannot though. Too many witnesses.

I know Buddhism is not an evil religion but the mythology/believe is just as dumb as the others.

I'm almost agnostic. However, I respect that there are religions out there and that people believe in stuff, and that for all the bad, there is some good that's come from it in a general society sense. Can we not insult the most of humanity that have some sort of belief structure please? I thought this was about the practices themselves and whether they're good and legal or bad and worthy of public protest.

Damn, I'm as bad as Geldon with the edits lately... must use Preview button.

It's a hard subject, I'm not trying to insult anyone.  My point is that the linked interviews are not special at all.  You could get the same type of talk from every religion.

And the link with the honk if you hate Scientology.  Replace Scientology with a more mainstream religion, how well would that pass?

Ah, good point. The origins of a number of religions wouldn't really survive scrutiny any better, events otherwise erased by time and a lack of witnesses. I've always been curious what it would be like if some of the today's religions were just now forming in a connected media age, with particularly public coverage of how those religions were founded and spread.

(This is not a CoS-apologist opinion, just a general curiosity).

I think there would be just as much skepticism as there was back then. The current church would call Jesus's actions unsanctioned and decry him as a fake. People would call the miracles magic tricks. They would have magicians recreate them. They would call photoshopping and camera tricks. I still believe if God spoke to the world, people would question if it was really God.

Oh they would, and they would be damn right about it.  Miracle strangely stopped at the exact same time we discovered the technology to record/prove it. 

This has nothing to do with the beliefs and everything to do with the behavior of Scientology.  I absolutely don't care one bit about whatever beliefs a person chooses to hold.  Not my place to throw stones, live and let live, etc.  However, I get ornery about people having their cash drained out of them and being held captive.  There's a bit of a difference between "haw haw, that guy makes funny 'om' noises with his legs all curled like a pretzel!" and "maybe we shouldn't stand by while people abuse the shit out of other people in our country". 

If you replaced "Scientology" with "crazy hardline woman-stoning Islam" I'd say the same thing, but all of the woman-killing people are off in other countries and thus difficult to stop.  And if you replaced it with "crazy hardline woman-beating Christians", I'd point out that those people do get busted and arrested on a fairly regular basis in the US.

I'd also point out that being dicks isn't an inherent piece in the belief structure of Islam or Christianity but rather an example of people corrupting the source material, whereas Hubbard himself explicitly told people to be dicks to others in his writings.

Admittedly.  What's your sample size for your claim that the public outside of the Internet savvy is aware of the threat of Scientology?

I first heard about the weird stuff from a friend outside the internet. Not trying to provide an "example" really though. I just remember she was telling me about some couple she knew who were basically having their lives imposed upon in extreme ways by the church. Mainly to do with finances and property. At the time, they wanted to get out, but it was becoming harder for them to do so. I don't remember the details though.

While the beliefs of a Scientologist seem wierd and out there, that isn't why most people have a problem with Scientology. People have a problem with it because instead of improving its community and the lives of its members, Scientology's doctrines make people poor, estrange families, and prey on peoples' weaknesses for the benefit of those who are in on the scheme. While this may also be true of some Christian organisations, most famously certain televangelists, the central doctrines of Christianity don't call for its believers to cut contact with family members who aren't "in," doesn't extort money from its members, and provides a community that is supportive and encouraging - and that's not even the real point of the religion, just an effect of the behaviors that the Bible encourages.

I don't know as much about other religions, but I should think that the comparison makes my point obvious.

Please let's not go there, Arthur - that's a debate for another time and place. I'm upset enough that comparisons to other religions are being drawn here - as that's totally not the point. But we have gone there, and I'm compelled to come along.

Most of the world's major religions came from thousands of years of traditions, culminating with a great prophet, followed by a further couple thousand years of development for them to become our current recognized institutions.

And before I go any further, let me just say that I intend no offense to anyone who is a member of a major religion. After all, even if you believe deeply in your own faith, you have to admit that they can't all be right. So please do not think I am attacking you personally.

As has been mentioned previously, the major beliefs of these religions were developed long before the advent of science; long before humanity could be expected to distinguish truth from fancy. Depending on who you are and where you grew up, you could have had a major head trip laid upon you by your parents, your community, your religions institution itself, and the thousands of years of history it represents. The social ties that bind most humans together practically guarantee that the major religions of the world will continue for a long time to come.

The problem here is that I refuse to sit idly by and let the church of scientology become one of those major religions. The difference is that scientology arrived, unbidden, entirely from the imagination of one man, who easily available evidence can prove, was a criminal and a liar. It's tradition, history and beliefs derive from easily debunked forms of pseudo-science and 50's era pulp sci-fi. As an organization it can easily be described as paranoid schizophrenic, megalomaniacal, conniving, and sociopathic - traits that were, without any surprise, shared by it's creator.

Regardless of whether or not you feel your ancestors had any chance to deny the religions they followed, you have to recognize that these are our times, our legacy to our ancestors, and our problems to either face or ignore. To those who are too apathetic to care about anything, and those who seek the advancement of scientology, I have only one thing to say: Not on my watch.

For the rest of you who do not entirely agree with the fight against scientology in particular, let me advance a line of argument. The problem with scientology is not just that it's beliefs are wrong. The problem exists in the extent to which they are willing to go on roads already well traveled by major religions. And that does make this a position that depends on the degree to which something is wrong. It's a hard position to advance for that reason. People like to think in absolutes - something is either right or wrong because X Factor=right or wrong. But you have to draw the line somewhere. The difference between a handshake and crushing someone's hand is how much force you exert. The difference between scientology's wrong beliefs and the wrong beliefs of the major religions are the extent to which they effect people.

Tithing: Most major religions ask for a tithe to advance the cause of the religion. Scientology demands a fee to study the religion and punishes you for not providing it - a condition they call 'downstat.' While the tithe suggested by most religions is quite bearable, the fee on religious materials that the scientologists charge easily amounts to hundreds of thousands of dollars to advance your knowledge in the religion. The littered corpses of burnt out bankrupt and thoroughly consumed scientologists truly are legion.

No Psychological Treatment: Most major religions have no problem with their members receiving any medical treatment that science can provide - they declared a calm truce against science long ago. One of the core tenants of scientology is that psychology is wrong. It's members forgo medical treatment in lieu of church treatment, which amounts to just more batshit crazy pseudo-science. Lisa McPherson is an extreme example, but she's become a poster child for the anti-scientologists because it strikes to the core of how the teachings and practices of scientology are dangerous. And there are plenty of other examples of people who were denied medication or treatment and met with a bad end because of it - Jeremy Perkins for example. A bit more of a hard sell because he happened to stab his mother 77 times though, but you can't say she didn't set herself up for it.

Outside Criticism: Most religions will defend themselves if attacked verbally - just as any reasonable person or organization should. The problem with scientology is that they are willing to pursue their attacks through subversive non-verbal, physical and personal means. Paulette Cooper, and Bonnie Woods to name just a couple. And that's not even getting into their legal actions designed to suppress outside information about the church. Why are they so secretive anyways?

Member Domination: The social pressures keeping people inside most major religions have already been examined. Without the benefit of thousands of years of (real) history, Scientology resorts to forced disconnects, outright extortion and kidnapping to keep it's members inside it's church. A few of the links provided previously in the thread detail these offenses.

Seriously, you may have other agendas when it comes to religion, but the current offenses of the major religions are a game of tiddlywinks compared to what scientology is doing right now in your home town. Don't compare it to any of the major religions - Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, or Hinduism. It's offenses are so many times greater in terms of magnitude so as not to be in the same ball park at all.

Special notes to Aez: the fact that your example on Islam goes right to the balalala extreme minority is not only an offense to the 99.99% of decent hardcore Muslims, but an offense to the intelligence of the readers of this board. And while you can freely discuss the :pedobear: problem inside the catholic church, if you tried to accuse a scientologist of having sex with an altar boy I would not be surprised if you were sued, and had your neighborhood plastered with flyers accusing you of the crime. Fanatics are truly the antithesis of progress in this world, you are right on that point. However, because of the tight control scientology exerts on it's religion, the entire organization is one of fanatics - watch that Tom Cruise promo video and tell me he's not a fanatic. Tell me the angry/crazy look that he reserves, apparently, for dramatic scenes and talking about SPs wouldn't look right at home on the face of a radical jihadist with a vest strapped full of explosives and ball bearings.

I appreciate your post and your point. However, I don't forgive the origins and expansion policies and practices of the "major" religions so easily. This is not to apologize for CoS by any stretch, nor excuse their practices. The difference is we bear witness to all of this in a distributed media age, whereas in the past you (not you personally) either didn't know about it or knew not to ask about it, in the face of aggressive religious expansion (because often that expansion had less to do with faith than other reasons).

The other difference though is as you and others have mentioned: you can't so easily force a reality-tweaking belief structure in the Age of Reason, no matter how much mainstream media channels try to bark it out atcha. Backlash is expected from clear thinking folks, if they can organize.

And this leads to the protests. Being an internet-only protest means most of the masses the likes of CNN and Fox reach won't know about it. The media doesn't want to push the idea that everyone is a source of information, because then they lose their lock on it (sound familiar?). This is why the pace at which they report is roughly the same online as on TV and radio. And these are the places the masses get their info.

However, actual in-public protests are harder to ignore. Too many witnesses :-)

So even if they start small and get laughed it, it's a start.

But I also think these shouldn't happen to the exclusion of the other things either.

For those that say the public knows about Scientology...

...why did the CoS try so hard to take down the Cruise video?

EDIT : Going by some postings about a protest today in Orlando there were between 50 and 100 people there.  This is the week before the 'main' protests.  I think a few of us here are underestimating the scale we're looking at.

Dtrain :

I agree with your post. I think we simply have a disconnect on the level of involvement.  I used basic one liner to put a new perspective on the interviews I saw.  Tom Cruise and Steven Fishman would look just has batshit insane if they were describing any other religious myth.

The liberty I took with easy racial profiling is exactly because I believe in the intelligence of the readers of this board.

It's all good - I probably drama queened a little on the balala thing anyways.

I'm going to the protest here in Houston for an hour before I have to go to work that day. Aside from idle conversation, that's the extent of my personal involvement in this thing. That's easy enough for anyone to do.

I figure it would be fun if for no other reason than to see what it looks like in person.

Aez,

I'm a heretic.  A bona-fide, walking and talking affront to Christianity.  I don't believe in the concept of the Trinity; the incidences of the Holy Spirit in the Bible always struck me more as the visible manifestation of divine power than an entity in and of itself, and while I have no issue with Jesus's divine origin, I'm unsure whether he should have equal billing with God.  I worry that the Trinity concept is stepping dangerously close to a violation of the second commandment (that's the 'shalt not worship other gods' one, for people not keeping track at home), just like the Catholics' Pope-and-saint-reverence has rubbed me as being a bit too close to worship.

My particular outlook lost a doctrinal fight around the fourth century; my views were fairly common in the ancient days (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arianism and that's Arian not Aryan; no Godwin, thank you) but got pushed out of the accepted Christian doctrine and are now essentially unheard of.  Protestant churches deviate from each other in minor details only, none of them to my knowledge stray nearly so far from the 'ground rules'.

I have deviated in a not-insignificant manner from the rest of my religion.  And I have not been excommunicated, blackmailed, threatened, kidnapped, harmed, framed, or abused.  And that is the crucial difference, here.  Among my friends, there are a couple of atheists, a couple of deists, a Wiccan, a Buddhist, a Catholic, a couple of random Protestants, and me, the Arian heretic.  We get along with our bizarre potpourri of faiths because none of us have any particular desire to be dicks about it, but more importantly because none of us are being harmed by our religions.  If one of my friends was forced to sell all their stuff to give everything they owned to their religion and had to devote most of their waking hours to working for that religion, the rest of us would have to kick their asses and drag them out.  Not because of any beef with their faith, but because it's clearly harming them; we'd do the exact same thing if they picked up an addiction to something.  There is a boundary between a healthy and an unhealthy relationship between a person and their faith, and Scientology is fostering the unhealthy kind.  This isn't at all about Hubbard and space souls, this is about a body count and a giant pile of cash.

This are serious scientology. (http://youtube.com/watch?v=tySJTPJJc1Y&watch_response)

You mean, like all the miracle cures that occurred at Lourdes that stopped when a medical committee was set up to oversee claims of "miraculous healings" in 1947. Wait! No they didn't.  Turns out that people are still recovering from incurable conditions for no scientifically explainable reasons.  You may be a sceptic and believe that there is a scientific explanation for these events but you can't deny that, as of yet, nobody has been able to explain it all away yet - modern technology or not.

You might also want to read up on the highly controversial figure of Sai Baba and his "cult" of followers.  He claims to have performed miracles not unlike those of Jesus - cures, materialisations and even raising from the dead.  I know people who have "witnessed" minor miracles in his presence.  Personally I think he's a charlatan and a fraud but there are plenty of people who think he isn't.  There is even alleged scientific investigation of some of his "miracles" which apparently can find no explanation although many other sceptics say it's all sleight of hand and illusion.  Apparently he's got about 50 million followers - how many people on this board have honestly heard of him?

Except the Placebo effect IS a scientific explanation, isn't it?

In this case, what you call placebo, others will call divine intervention.  There's no substantial proof for either.  Your decision on what to call it is likely to depend on your own beliefs - whether your god is the Christian one or Science.  The point is that these things still happen even though "we discovered the technology to record/prove it". 

Just because we can't explain it yet, doesn't mean "these things happen."

If we called everything without an explanation a Miracle, well. I can't make a good analogy this early in the morning so I'll just use an exclamation.

HOGWARTS!

You got Jesus in my Xenu.
(http://www.scientomogy.com/xenu6.jpg)

Xenu drinks Olde English.

I like how he rolls.

Wait. Scientologists are Republicans?

Anonymous and Kyle (http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1800333)

Also, Kitsune, I feel offended by your exclusion of Jews.  If you don't go out immediately and find a Jewish friend, you'll be hearing from our Jewish lawyers.  And they're almost as good as Scientology's.

Scientology's lawyers ARE Jews, more than likely!  :grin:

Nope, no Jewish friends.  One of my dad's friends is Jewish, though, and that man was awesome and insane.  He came to dinner once, and started scarfing down pork chops.  I asked him, "Um, aren't you not supposed to do that, or something?"  He looked at me, said, "Kid, there's lots of stuff I'm not supposed to do." and went right back to the pork chops.  He gave me a plastic dreidel full of chocolate one year, and that was sweet.  I still have no clue what the hell the symbols mean, but  I liked it.

Hebrew characters shin, hey, gimel, nun.  Which means 'We killed Jesus!  Pwned!"

No, really.  It means something about a miracle.  Also, you can spin it to win raisins from your friends.

Also, why do nutty people say Jews killed Jesus when Jesus was obviously killed by Romans?

According to Biblical accounts, the Romans performed the execution at the behest of the Jewish elders:


Saying "Jews killed Jesus" and leaving it at that is of course still nutty because there were a great number of Jews who were not involved.  Including, y'know, Jesus's followers.

Also, look at the context in which that was written; Christianity was already viewed as a whacky Jewish cult where you ate human flesh, drank blood, and had orgies by most Romans.  If you're trying to spread your message throughout the Roman world it's best not to antagonize them any more by making them the bad guys of your story.

I love Jews.  Especially cranberry-orange.  (http://www.terranuts.com/forums/images/smilies/fridge.gif)

My cranberry-orange jews: I'm not showing you them.

(or is that only me that gets no image?)

This thread is getting silly.   :oh_i_see:

Dreidel tradition (http://youtube.com/watch?v=TFn_AxdXbkM)

And of course cheesus was killed by jews. Otherwise alot of things that happened the last few hundred years in the old world wouldn't at least TRY to make any sense.

Just because :

Jew :

http://djofj.ytmnd.com/ (http://djofj.ytmnd.com/)

http://hellodere.ytmnd.com/ (http://hellodere.ytmnd.com/)


Jesus vs Scientology :

http://jesuswilldestroyscientology.ytmnd.com/ (http://jesuswilldestroyscientology.ytmnd.com/) 

Raptor jesus vs Scientology : (violence)

http://ytmndvscientologyftw.ytmnd.com/ (http://ytmndvscientologyftw.ytmnd.com/)


HOLY TAG TEAM vs Scientology  - - Holy shit, click this.

http://jesusvsxenu.ytmnd.com/ (http://jesusvsxenu.ytmnd.com/)


Should have been posted from the start (WARNING : graphical violence, CSI style):

http://theunfunnytruth.ytmnd.com/ (http://theunfunnytruth.ytmnd.com/)


God, I love the intarweb :

http://bitchslapscientology.ytmnd.com/ (http://bitchslapscientology.ytmnd.com/)

That's what happens when Jesus shows up to a Scientology flame. The argument goes around and around. (http://youtube.com/watch?v=dh6wtATgJRs&feature=related)

Not him specifically but people like him. See this page (http://www.hinduism.co.za/jesus.htm).

Damn.  Why couldn't you have quoted that song about spinning round round like a record player?

I did not need to begin this day with  :pedobear: .

Actually I never need to see that thing ever.  I think Chris Hansen and Steven Colbert need to team up to take that motherfucker out!

So what you're saying is you'd rather begin the day with a meatspin?

And if you don't know what that means, do not investigate it too closely. If pedobear gets your dander up, this will most likely cause cardiac arrest.

Just for you. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMwdAc1Dzfg)

Haha, brilliant. Here's Pete Burns these days:

(http://cache.viewimages.com/xc/57002370.jpg?v=1&c=ViewImages&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF19390335F8FA9CA92A68F7D559D9A2F59DE78A0E721FD50B7AE)

On second thought, maybe meatspin would have been apropriate.

Kind of looks like Xenu.

Note the Tom Cruise book on the upper left of the photo.  What looked like a derail ties in to the orginal topic!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=a5gMeXz2YMw

I love that song.

I had my choice between that photo and an even more hideous head shot - seeing the serpent straining so vigorously to reach it's own tail, I really had no choice in the matter.

Anonymous being discussed on Australian national radio with John Safran as I type this (JJJ).

Anonymous also got an article in a big New Zealand paper (and another Australian one apparently).

Story on Australian TV tonight (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyvULIxHJlE)

(trashy current affairs show, rival of the one that produced Corey the party dude - just someone filming a CRT with a camcorder, but only copy I could find so far)

Anonymous vs. Scientology was one of the lead stories on NPR this morning.

That would mean they've been on NPR 3 times now. Word.

But again, until we see what happens this weekend its only made more people aware of the Xenu folks.
If the turnouts are low, it will seriously bork it all up.

Don't fuck this up.

If it actually works, the chans that aren't filled with wrongness will have actually validated their existence.

NPR?

Also, here
http://www.smh.com.au/news/technology/hackers-declare-scientology-dday/2008/02/07/1202234012004.html

Sydney Morning Herald and it's Melbourne counterpart, The Age are pretty much well respected papers here.

 :oh_i_see:

On one of those anon posts, maybe it was under a dig post or on partyvan, they pointed out that Obama is good friends with Oprah. Who is good friends with Tom Cruise. Who is fucking crazy.

Anyway. Just wanted to put that out there.

Ah, are we moving into the tabloid business then?

Nah. Neither are they. It was a 3 sentence footnote on a page. Probably just newfag troll bait.

WHOT?!?!?! OMG, don't vote for Obama, 3 degrees of separation from Xenu!!!!!eleven

Yeah.  Looney makes a giant ass of himself to a stupid bitch mostly watched by stupid people who don't happen to work normal hours means because that same lady endorsed Obama means he loves the Hubbard.

That's REALLY FUCKING STUPID dude.

I thought that was a good thing. 

Vote Obama!  Don't get thrown into a volcano. .  again!

Uh, I know thx.

Sydney Protest Reported to number in the 100s:

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2256/2254217224_940414d309.jpg?v=0)

Also: Tom Cruise can not fly.

More at http://forums.enturbulation.org/viewtopic.php?t=1577&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Edit: linked to (hopefully) more reliable image. Also, looks more like the protest numbers in the dozens to me, but still a good showing.

oh god that is awesme

If that is the average for these turnouts I say rock the fuck on.

That's probably going to be one of the smaller ones in terms of highly populated cities.

OMG @ this pic, from the chick in the Hello Kitty t-shirt and gas mask, to the CULT sign, to the fists in the air.

(click for full size)
(http://users.on.net/~svandore/pics/20half.jpg) (http://users.on.net/~svandore/pics/20.jpg)

The original link does actually work, it's just really slow.

Linky no work.

 :hello_thar:

While the link does not work, I know what you speak of.

(http://www.news.com.au/common/imagedata/0,,5882466,00.jpg)

It made the front page of http://www.news.com.au/

Edit: The blurred sign says 'CULT'

My post now shows the uncensored pic. I'm not sure why they blurred it, but I suspect it's a stunt to boost page impressions and unique users - a global audience will now go there to see the censored pic and post a "why did you censor?" comment, boosting news.com.au's stats.

There is probably a legit argument that calling Scientology a cult is potentially defamatory, based on past cases, but it would be very thin. And news.com.au (Murdoch owned) has been getting up to all kinds of tricks to boost traffic, especially with Corey the party boy (where they weren't afraid to be legally borderline in naming an underage boy on kiddie porn charges, for the sake of traffic).

Heh.  They know the CoS lawyers are twitchy.

More pics from same source, a professional photographer: http://www.ruhe.com.au/scientologyprotest/ (link very slow so I've mirrored them below - click for large version).

(http://users.on.net/~svandore/pics/01half.jpg) (http://users.on.net/~svandore/pics/01.jpg)

(http://users.on.net/~svandore/pics/22half.jpg) (http://users.on.net/~svandore/pics/22.jpg)

(http://users.on.net/~svandore/pics/24half.jpg) (http://users.on.net/~svandore/pics/24.jpg)

(http://users.on.net/~svandore/pics/33half.jpg) (http://users.on.net/~svandore/pics/33.jpg)

 :awesome_for_real:

I think that smiley just about sums up that whole thing.  Not the facetious smiley mind you, the one that actually means Awesome, for real!

Edit: Now I'm waiting for pictures of bums dressed up like darth vader to start appearing with a cardboard sign that says "Rebels blew up death star, need money for jedi lessons"

Melbourne too! (http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=e11TtX0WW-w)

Also Perth, Adelaide and Brisbane (http://forums.enturbulation.org/viewtopic.php?t=1645).

And a short video showing the actual size of the Sydney protest (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzUFQXYUThU) - good amount of people.

The hot Hello Kitty Gas Mask girl is getting poems written about her on message boards, but also from Sydney ... OMG STEPHANIE? (http://www.darakutenshi.com/raid/Image010.jpg).

Quoted for lulz

This whole thing only proves what I've long suspected: Australians are amazingly cool.

You can just count on them to have your 6:00 - whether it's Gallipoli (http://youtube.com/watch?v=GPFjToKuZQM), Tobruk or Iraq - they're like a friend who's been through so much shit with you they're ready to fight for you regardless of if you're right or not.

Ok, so Maybe Iraq wasn't such a good example. But they did get out quick, so they're also a lot more clever than people give them credit for.  :awesome_for_real:

Seriously though, those protests are amazing, and a great first step for 02/10/2008. Way to fucking go.

In celebration, I've abducted Paelos' monkey to entertain you with dancing:

Back when I did a lot of Internet chatting I found Aussies to be the coolest motherfuckers on the Internet.  Just genuinely cool people.

Clearly even the Channers from there are cool.

Jeeebus.  The sky is gonna fall next innit?

:(

We're still there. Haven't moved. New government says it will get out of Iraq but hasn't done so yet.

You have to see this, from the ground in Sydney - click on the pic:
(http://thumbnails4.imagebam.com/271/1ad7592700427.gif) (http://www.imagebam.com/image/1ad7592700427)

(More from that person (http://www.imagebam.com/gallery/100e0741ab1d1dc6ecce508144ea51c8/))

Edit - also the one and only TV report was from Adelaide (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJJV9tH3XJw). None of the Sydney channels bothered.

Still there - due to leave mid-2008.

That block on Russel St in Melbourne is the kind of place that's a complete pita to get any large groups of people to, as you would have seen, between the car park, narrow footpath, being on a hill and the divided road (which turns out to be a lifesaver).

Full credit to those who turned out here in Aust - particularly as Australia "went first" in that there could be no way to know if it'd be a fizzle or a fire. Hope the rest of the world can follow suit as Aussies showed some numbers.

Live video feed from London raid, on now: http://www.qik.com/anonlondon

Now, that's a lot of people.

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&q=scientology+protest&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wn

I suppose that's a page worth watching.

AnonLondon just started singing the Portal song!  :awesome_for_real:

Or rather the guy working the camera sang the little part 'Well, there's no sense crying over every mistake, you just keep on trying till you run out of cake. And the Science gets done and you make a neat gun for the people who are still alive.'

Fecking great.

This whole story is made out of win.

Pics have surfaced on 4-chan  of her without the mask.  While *I* think she's still somewhat attractive, I can see why they've started in on the 'omg what a dog' routine.


I wonder if there's anything going on around the Cincinnati office.  I'd drive by but I'm watching the Kids and nephew today.

And with Gas Mask Hello Kitty Girl, a whole new generation starts down the Gas Mask fetish route...

(http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:iJee6CTPik65_M:http://tn3-)



Please to be PMing me a linky. I promise I'm not a scifag trying to out her, I'm just an interweb pervert.  :grin:

Very good turnout in my town, a few dozen people were on both sides of the street when I came by three hours after the start time.  I was deeply afraid that all of like two guys would be there and it'd be laughable, but a respectable crowd came.  I was getting lunch with friends, and I talked the guy who drove into going to that part of town.  He was reluctant to take the time and gas, and was pretty sure that the street would be empty, but as we approached the block and the crowd came into view, and then more crowd, it was a sweet sight that we were all very glad to see.

http://www.unconfirmedsources.com/index.php?itemid=3013

I like this part:
Hur hur.

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&q=scientology+protest&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wn

Annnnnnnnnd. They got media attention. 40 News articles int he last 24 hours.

Atlanta Police in riot gear. (http://picasaweb.google.com/V4KK4R/ScientologyProtest2102008/photo#5165474190577118002)

Not sure if this is standard practice out there, or if they were told the protest would be violent.

I was more interested in this little bit:

So, appearently the CoS now has FBI authorization to use deadly force against protesters?  WTF?

A single shot fired would end scientology's existance.

...so Scientology is now threatening to shoot civilians?  I think it's time they distanced themselves from this Cruise character.

More about the strange show of force in Atlanta at http://forums.enturbulation.org/viewtopic.php?t=1822

Particularly stirring images from Buffalo. Although the people in the snow are hardcore, this is the one that got me:

Trapped by scifags, hepl. (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6c/Buffalo_NY_Scientology_Protest15_Feb_10-2008.jpg/800px-Buffalo_NY_Scientology_Protest15_Feb_10-2008.jpg)

Edit: May not be clear from the photo, but that's a child waving to the protesters.

I'd want to see backup confirmation about the whole 'shoot the protesters' thing, that seems a weeeeee bit crazy.  Not too crazy for Tommy, but too crazy for Scientology's PR department to let him say.

The Unconfirmed Sources article is satire like The Onion.

You're fucking kidding me.  What contributions?  Their e-meter warehouse?  The basement where they starved and beat Lisa McPherson?  Only the winner of the Freedom Medal Of Valor (for Achievement in the Field of Excellence) could be so full of himself.

.. Ah, I see now it is a fake.  Chances the horrified people spamming the unconfirmedsources comments with FAKE! are Scientologists?  High.

This shit ain't fake. (http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a74/Deanzilla/IMG_0335.jpg)

From the last page back, I especially liked Thetans or GTFO.  :drill:

Xenu attends San Diego protest:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/23637168@N05/2256478418/in/set-72157603887577097/
 :rock:

Also, these photos make me homesick.

Tom Cruise is to Cults as Brad McQuaid is to MMOGs.

The failmaker?

Not bad.  Did you make it, Schild?

Nope. I couldn't find out how controlled it was until I just read the above. I'll be sure to go to the next one now that I know they had their shit together.

(http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/128347587844687500fail.jpg)

Wikinews (http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Wikinews_international_report:_%22Anonymous%22_holds_over_250_anti-Scientology_protests_worldwide) probably has the best coverage of all of the protests in one place.

Schild's body-thetans psyched him out. My work-thetans conspired against me, but I think I'll request the next one off.
(http://i26.tinypic.com/2ikf5hk.jpg)

(http://i26.tinypic.com/w6uu12.jpg)

Flickr photo set (http://www.flickr.com/photos/anewname/) of the Toronto protest. I have to give these guys credit as it was something like -20 with wind chill today and it insanely windy when you get downtown because of the lake being right there. Apparently there were about 100 or more at the protest, which is pretty good considering the weather.

Pure win.

Just when I think things can't get more bizarre with the internet, we get this.

Enjoy the protest I suppose. It does appear that people did in fact show up to get freaky on the streets, especially in Australia, which is nice. Here's hoping the movement will gain steam and there's a second effort coming.

I'll actually be disappointed if there isn't now.

(http://torontoist.com/attachments/toronto_david/2008_02_10scientologyprotest_1.jpg)

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2022/2254530583_7fc7b6fded.jpg?v=0)

Not bad, and great body.

Is there anything this thread doesn't have? :inluv:

What a dog?  Well, already knew that plenty of /b-tards have no taste.  I wouldn't ask her to keep the mask on.

Anyways, I think it's clear that the protests themselves were a grand success.  What remains to be seen, however, is whether they were enough to draw the degree of public attention necessary to bring the hammer down, and unfortunately I doubt it.  A six-second blurb on CNN, then everyone goes back to the latest American Idol.

They managed to inconvenience and annoy the cult, and that's dandy in and of itself, but it'll take more to actually hurt it.  However, now that the first protest had such a good turnout, you can bet that tons of fence-sitters will get off their asses for a follow-up, and that might actually provide the numbers required.

Next protest is March 15th, the Ides of March.

Anon is clever.

It's good to see Optimus Prime doing his bit for the community.

I fail to see why that wee lassie is considered unattractive.  She looks fine to me.

Dunno, I concur that she looks fine to me.  :thumbs_up:

Maybe it's because she's not white?

I don't doubt someone said she's not attractive - idiocy + internets = depressingly common fail.

Love the sign!

Plus the gal is hot!

Hope the next protest messes with them even more.

I'm completely into white redheads and even I find her a fine specimen of her gender.

Those internet people don't know what they are talking about.

I'd hit it if she put the mask back on.

My thought processes, on opening this thread today: "Oh yeah, wasn't it supposed to be the protests yesterday? Heh, I wonder if anybody actually showed u-" (http://xs224.xs.to/xs224/08071/emot-aaaaa325.gif) (http://xs.to)


Edit: Heh. http://www.flickr.com/photos/therkd/2253485283/in/set-72157603882379333/  :awesome_for_real:

 :awesome_for_real:

Heh



As for gasmask girl, she's cute as hell.

She'd be about 100 times hotter if she had a better haircut though.

What's wrong with her hair?  I think she's adorable.  She looks about 14.

Bangs hide her face too much.

She doesn't look 14.  Those boobs are at least 16 years old.

She's pretty hot. I can see why Anon went off about how she wasn't though, aren't they all up in the anime/hentai tentacle rape shit? :cthulu:

I fucking love that first picture. There's a sign in the back that says "Scientology Can't Help You with That." I see some UO vets attended. Maybe Lum flew to Australia for a lark.

EDIT: Any idiot that thinks Gas Mask Chick isn't hot needs a genital check. That's more hittable than a Mitch Williams fastball.

Bwahaha. From the London protests:
(http://xs224.xs.to/xs224/08071/anon_fatherted508.jpg) (http://xs.to)

I disagree. We used to have a couple fans that were 14 with DDs. VERY DANGEROUS.

DDangerous even.

Well, I suspect the actual membership of /b throwing the insults have yet to touch a real girl yet so that'd account for some of it.  Your standards are skewed when your only exposure to females is the porn tossed around there and japanese cartoons.

Thanks for finding the pic, Tel.  I couldn't find it when I went back to look, and I didn't save it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lWOhp9egdA&NR=1

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=mudkips

NSFW, vaguely. Hilarious, because I don't /b/ enough.

 :hello_thar:

14?  I think you mean: (http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/8126/bearnotimpressedsz2.png)

I got bit by a zombie last week, but I fully expect to be revivified in the next two days, that being said...I agree fully with your assessment Signe.

I did a little research and found nobody detracting from her, infact, most of it was fan art and crap.

And then I got distracted by this:


More at http://www.mcsweeneys.net/2008/2/7wayne.html

I wish I had a showfer named Geeves. Maybe I'd get more ladies that way. :awesome_for_real:

You know, I was a gorgeous skater-type once.  My lithe figure was the envy of the rest of the team.

It would be much funnier if it were real.   :|

Big change from yesterday then. There were about 5 different motivators floating around with a closeup of her face saying "Failfags enjoy your fail." and other such witty sayings.   It's possible it was only one person, but there were a number of them when I was lurking.

I'm pretty sure they're all CoS plants.    :grin:

If they really wanted to be effective they would target their little public "stress test" nonsense that they do on the street and particularly college campuses.

Hey March 15 is March Madness around here, all we have to do is get the Scientology to come out against basketball and we would burn them to the ground.  Well, the match doesn't come to Butler University (Indianapolis, IN) till March 27.  Just a thought, but have Tom say something crazy about basketball, football, or baseball and you might get an even bigger protest.

Monday night on TV in Sydney:
Today Tonight (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WSHTPw65EM) (trashy current affairs)
A Current Affair (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vx1NObrUlzk) (trashy current affairs, co-owned by James Packer, a scientologist and friend of Tom Cruise)

(edit - sorry linked same one twice, fixed)

Aren't we all Phil Collins' people? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMKmuZcl6ps)

(http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc282/mindbook/DSC_094.jpg)

Slight misinterpretion of the role of Infragard (http://www.infragard.net/about.php?mn=1&sm=1-0). Not that I would expect him to know the distinction between info-gathering/sharing of scams (we have a color for irony?) and use of force to quell opinion. But I would expect rather interesting results had they actually tried to do what he claimed was possible.

wow that Tom Cruise head just became my wallpaper.

You're a sick man.

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2232/2260954844_0074176177.jpg?v=0)

Hmm, he kind of looks like Michael McKean there. Never saw that before. He should play him in a parody.

A laughably obvious scientology surveillance van was spotted at the L.A. protest, and mocked by all in attendance including Mark Bunker.

End result? Epic lulz:

(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg170/cosvandal/van.jpg)

 :pedobear:

Holy smokes - Youtube took down the original Anonymous declaration against Scientology!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCbKv9yiLiQ&e (Copy the link to your browser, don't just click on it. F13 forums haxxors google, news at 11.)

Questions must be asked:

http://www.google.com/support/youtube/bin/request.py

Discussion here. (http://forums.enturbulation.org/viewtopic.php?t=3335&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0)

Edit: Load the link, don't just click on it.

...aaaand it's back.

Apparently I'm the only one who cares anymore, but I wonder what the story there was.

Hmm. It's back with its "most viewed" status wiped. That will mean far fewer links to it.

YouTube does have more than its share of problems though. A lot of the people I'm subscribed to on there have temporarily lost videos or their whole account to a glitch in the system.

Views are flaky (fishy?) at youtube lately for some reason. It's been losing it's views on and off for the last week or so. I can see it at 2.4 million right now, but it'll go to 0 and come back eventually.

Maybe it's Scientology's counter-insurgent hackers at work!

http://www.frostyiceco.com/

Total victory

I like this one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSNRjPJRRqY&feature=related

The kid sounds like they're in the seventh grade, but I'll be damned if they don't give it a good delivery.

The whole point of computer generated voices was to avoid identification. That person is a newfag.

I liked the part where s/he was talking about the feb 10 protests, building up suspense for the ides of march, and then let loose with the sinister plan, MOAR PROTESTS!

It was great.

Scientology critic found dead in suspiciously-convoluted 'suicide' in Clearwater. (http://forums.enturbulation.org/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=3985)

Hm.

"We are not your private army."

The guy there is probably right, Anonymous is being framed. Had he done his research, he would've used the phrasing 'Personal Army.' Sea Org is a private army.

Something about that chain of events makes me wonder.  It takes a VERY far stretch of the imagination to believe that the CoS would be stupid enough to kill someone, and then try to make it look like the Anon gang did it in an effort to put the blame on the SoC.  I can think of a thousand more believably plausible methods by which the SoC could try to set up Anon then something like this.

No one in their right mind is going to believe that Anon was responsible for this dude's death, no matter how hard you try to bend it.

Nothing I've seen suggests that foul play was involved - just that information spreads with unpredictable speed through many sources. Newsflash, amirite?

He was clear, almost an OT before he left scientology. I think after that, you'd end up being a little unpredictable in your behavior, possibly even suicidal.

Not that you need a brainwashing routine to be suicidal. Many people from all walks of life suffer from psychological problems making them suicidal. Are defeated by their body thetans.

I dunno, it just seems a terribly convoluted way to commit suicide.  Be much quicker to just climb in the car and stick the hose from the exhaust in through the window than to feed the hose over into your bedroom.

On the other hand, some people are saying things like 'ninjas could have snuck the hose into his bedroom and poisoned him while he slept!', but I have the suspicion that a hose stuck in a car's exhaust pipe is going to be kind of loud when the car's running.  Slightly less hysterical people are suggesting that he was drunk/drugged/knocked out and thus unable to wake up from any amount of noise involved, which is a less-implausible idea than sleeping through someone opening your window and running your car's exhaust into your bedroom.  From any perspective, it's weird.

Or he wanted to die in his bed comfortably instead of in his car.

But yes, weird.

Deutschland +1: http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,353577,00.html


Less than 2 weeks until the Ides of March!

 :uhrr:

I wondered how I could have missed that gem, then I saw the date.  :drill:

:uhrr:

(http://grannygear.com/Assets/Images/Races/Moab/2003/The_Lemmiwinks_Experience.jpg)

...

Wikinews (http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Scientology_protest_group_celebrates_founder%27s_birthday_worldwide) again.

Some video from Australia (http://www.youtube.com/user/indymediakam).

The one I attended went just dandy, lots of people, friendly police, no violence, party atmosphere, smooth sailing across the board.  Meanwhile, the Atlanta cops were busy playing the 'you don't need a protest permit, oops yes you do' and 'you can wear masks, oops no you can't' game and hauled people off to jail for it, then to cap off the whole thing pulled over and ticketed any drivers who honked for the protest.

Atlanta's news companies and the ACLU are going to find a lot of voice mail and e-mails waiting for them in the morning.

More importantly, the other protesters passed the hat and made bail for the ones who were arrested, nobody was allowed to rot in jail over this.

That story is listed here (http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Protesters_arrested_at_anti-Scientology_event_in_Atlanta). Sounds like a top dog at the Atlanta Police is a CoS member.

Edit: Phone call with a scientologist (http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2008/02/scientologists-think-getting-run-over-by-a-bus-is-totally-fu.php). :drill:

And the Google News link (http://news.google.com/news?q=scientology) again.

Atlanta just had a tornado, people. This is a sideshow compared to people complaining about how close they came to death. Or something.

Illegal arrests ordered by an official close to the cause that is protested against? Isn't abuse of authority a criminal offense in the US?

Yes.

No.  Refer to Politics and any Bush thread.

 ;D

I guess its different when the president can get you a free-out-of-jail card by pardon. Why should he do that for a Scientologist?

Lobbyists and $?

If you can buy presidential pardons now you are in even deeper shit than I thought.

Care to send a shovel then?

Goddamn, that was awesome. For real.

rolled.

badly.

(http://api.ning.com/files/e98hx2RLbXD-7NLRTLk1VuuLchvMW*79ZYEyYaJrKtBUJHNg9-ZfCbwJzzQExX9wzaXNnJaYHeCZROTX2tVuA2hlY*z5FM1P/SL740594.JPG?width=500) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CW1mE0Dl8fg)

So how's this whole thing going? Any news on the front lines?

Scientology has been defeated. Crushed. Is no more.


Didn't you get the memo?

Texas is well on it's way to declaring it a business (instead of a religion.) YEEHAW!

http://forums.enturbulation.org/showthread.php?t=6526

Cliff notes: Resolution was included as a result of majority vote to the official Republican Convention Resolutions on the 29th of March 2008. It's not a law yet, but with Texas being an absurdly red state this is a major victory.

At the risk of sounding like this should be politics: For the first time in my life, I'm proud of my (new) state.

You know, I was going to write a thing about how this means nothing until it passes, but looking at the resolution itself and their three clauses which define a religion this actually might have a slight chance of passing.  I still think that CoS will get other religions to help get it rejected (calling it prejudice against religions) but we'll see.

Hell that site that shows the resolution also has a huge essay about how this is religious persecution and people should be calling the government to tell them that. 

Don't hold out too much hope.  At best this means it makes it into the party platform when they hold the state convention and is not a law in any way.

Also it would have a small effect when it comes to property and business tax qualifications, but Texas does not have an income tax.  It's a step though.

Also, the Texas legislature does not meet until 2009.  As a biennial legislature, there is a lot of chaos and confusion at the close of a session.  If this gets out of committee, it could pass.  However, it looks like a standard crazy piece of legislation that is introduced for press coverage and then dies. 

Also, this is only a local county resolution.  It is not a state resolution.  Remember, Texas has 254 counties.

I bet a member of this site got this passed.  I am over an hour east of Galveston so it wasn't me. 

Too late, already been done in 2000.  Mark Rich, anybody?

What do you mean, did they take the rest of the year off?

They meet for six months in Austin.  The other 18 months of their term is spent in their home district on constituent services and whatever their paying job is.  (State Legislators only make $18k for their service, it's not enough to live on.)  The governor can and does call special sessions where they meet for a few weeks in the interim.

while one party hides in a hotel in Oklahoma.

They meet once every two years. Their pay is shit.

Many "small government" folks tend to see this as ideal. Having lived here, however, I can say the following:

1) Most of them are happily bought out.
2) Their decisions are even more short-sighted and idiotic than usual for state government.

Fuck, our education system has been under fucking judicial control for like two decades now, because our Leg can't manage to provide "equal oppurtunity" under the law. In short, there's schools in bumfuck East Texas where they've got spending at about 20 dollars per student, per year -- and places where it's 8300 per student, per year. Some of the Texas school districts would be sneered upon by third world villagers as primitive and underfunded.

Our current "solution" is if your district spends over a certain amount per student, they match you up with a poor district and you give them lots of your money. (The flaws in this idea are pretty simple -- if you're used to having, say, 8k per student your entire infrastructure -- buildings, salaries, outstanding bonds, etc -- is built around roughly that figure. Losing 2k per student fucks your finances pretty awful). The screams from HISD as gentrification finally pushed them into the "giving money" and not the "taking money" side have been music, however.

I believe our prison system is ALSO under judicial control, or at least a great deal of oversight. Frankly, the Texas Leg can't do it's job -- they don't even try. They just fuck around for six months and then let the courts handle it. Did I mention that ALL our judges -- up to and including the Texas Supreme Court or whatever it's called -- are elected? Often, not to like 12 year terms or anything?

And that the current Speaker of the House/equivilant actually got booted from his position several months ago, but simply refused to acknowledge the rules and has been holding onto it anyways?

It's the most fucked up state government in the US. I'm surprised no one's been shot there.

Baltimore's Citypaper did a cover story on Anonymous  this week.

http://citypaper.com/news/story.asp?id=15543

I really disliked when they did that, however I now understand why.  DeLay was ramming through mid-decade redistricting to try and take the state from a gerrymandered 85/60 legislators to 100/45.  It's really partisan here.  Keep in mind Texas was the testing ground of DeLay's national strategy and that prior to the 90's, the state was Democrat controlled.

Awesome find JWIV:

Right in the middle of the writeup, "'LURK MOAR NEWFAG'."


Edit: I laughed even harder when I read "Anonymous likes Mudkips."  :rofl:

That was good reading.

I think Delay's a scumbag, but let's be honest here; he was gerrymandering a state that was only Democrat controlled because it had been previously gerrymandered by Democrats back in the LBJ era.  Texas Democrats complaining about GOP gerrymandering comes off as just a tad bit hypocritical.

If they would have done it on the regular time frame it would have been one thing but DeLay and the Texas GOP:

1) Illegally used corporate donations to gain control of statehouse.

2) Did a mid-decade redistricting 2 years after a panel of judges (not the Texas legislature) had just redrawn them.

3) Did so in a way that DOJ career lawyers said was illegal under the Voting Rights Act.

There is a bit of a difference.

That was truly well done, I'm looking forward to the 12th, I totally missed the last one.

Israeli TV to Scientology: 1 global conspiracy per planet pls k thx bai:

Part 1: http://youtube.com/watch?v=UsqMqtpU44o
Part 2: http://youtube.com/watch?v=eJNOHmtEt9o

Ye gods.  Kudos to Israel for having the balls to put that on the air.

Any Christian that backs Scientology because they are afraid of government persecution of religions is a fool. I wouldn't have said that before, but this thread has certainly given me more to think about in terms of the cult than I had ever really considered.

It really all comes down to the third stipulation in that Texan bill: religious enlightenment isn't supposed to cost money.  That's a blatant money grab.  The tithe is at least theoretically optional.  If Scientology was free, it wouldn't have destroyed nearly as many lives as it has.  It'd just be wacky.  And we, as a society, are fine with wacky.

Well, see the thing is I can biblically and historically defend the tithe as a long-standing tribute to the religious authority dating back to ancient Jewish traditions and writings. In the Torah, Abraham is credited with giving a tenth of a plunder to the high priest Melchizedek as part of the Levitical code. I believe that's where the 10% comes from, although I've never actually studied it thoroughly.

However, as you stated, it was Abraham's choice. It is still our choice today. The priests will still bless and take your confessions in the Catholic Church today without donations. Granted, they crossed that line in the times of Martin Luther, but the Reformation and Counter-Reformation did a lot to re-establish the norms we consider to be important in a religion. Ideally, that money should be going to further the goals of the church, which is helping the unfortunate first and spreading the word second. You are correct in your assessment of Scientology as a pure money grab.

I don't want to get off-topic, but...

The history of the tithe in the Bible/Torah really doesn't matter.  They have just as much justification for it in their books.  There is nothing inherently more or less valid about either of your holy books.  Invoking the Bible over Dianetics is an appeal to majority, and invoking it at all is an appeal to authority.  You believe it, but they believe their book with the same sincerity.  I happen to disbelieve both, so the claims of both really don't validate anything from my perspective.  As for the history of it- that doesn't make it any more just.  If the Church of Scientology was doing the exact same thing it is doing, but had been doing it for 3,000 years, that wouldn't make it right.  We'd just be used to it.

What does count is the voluntary nature of the tithe versus the compulsory nature of Scientology's "donations".  And it starts right from the beginning, too.  Go take a personality test from them, they'll tell you that you're stressed and need the book.  Ask if it's free, "Well, no, a small donation of $8 is required."  I wonder if they realize that "required donation" doesn't make a hell of a lot of sense.

Of course, then there are apparently folks who say that the tithe is voluntary, but God blesses those who do tithe and curses those who do not (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tithe#Modern-day_teachings).  That sounds less than voluntary.  But I believe those are the (extreme) minority, and I'm not going to condemn the whole practice based on that anymore than I'd condemn it based on the greedy and evil practices of individual priests (http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2007/04/11/news/sandiego/8_88_414_10_07.txt).

For now, we'll assume the benevolence of the tithe because of its voluntary nature, and the malevolence of "required donations" because of their mandatory nature, subjective judgments aside.

Money is required for any organization to function.  This is a practical matter, not a religious one, and it doesn't matter to me whether the method of collecting money is "we could really use some money" vs "you need to pay to play".  I don't care if you're talking about Scientology, Catholicism, or Pet Rescue.  You need money, and looking for sources of it isn't bad.

The problem is the social pressure used to extort money.  It's the blackmail, the threats, they way they demand it.  This method of collection is wrong, again, whether you're Scientology, the Catholic Church, or Pet Rescue. 

Regardless of anything that any holy book may say encouraging tithes, I have yet to hear of any real religion tossing someone out for non-payment.  To the best of my knowledge, I can walk into any cathedral, synagogue, mosque, temple, etc., sit down, worship, and walk out without taking any crap for not handing them money.  In a fair number of them, I bet I can ask for and receive a free copy of their respective holy book, too.

Preying on the weak minded and people in trouble to jank what little funds they may have left is what's fucked up and evil. Narcanon and setting up "aid" stations at ground zero come to mind.

Scientology wouldn't last 3000 years. I personally have a belief that history has a way of sorting through a lot of the bullshit in the world and bringing the falsehoods and corruption to light. Any ideology that survives that long is battle tested. Is it 100% right? Not necessarily, but I have a more healthy respect for it than anything L. Ron Hubbard could quote. The historical part of it is that tithes are merely a form of tribute, and that is a practice that's been around forever outside of religion.

Or hell, most churches will try help out parishioners in financial straits with either money or household goods/groceries.  This is a common practice in any "real" religion, whether it's Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, etc.

Think the CoS would do that?

Sure!  They'll let you move right in and live with them as a staffer.  All you have to do is work 17-hour days for about $50 a week in pay, plus luxurious rice to eat and board with ten or so other people in the same room.

Alternately, as long as the press is watching, I'm sure they'd be only too happy to help you out.  When the cameras stop rolling, however, I'm sure they'll find some ways for you to repay their kindness.

Alternatively, once they've gotten all the use they can out of you, they can dump you on the street as a shattered wreck of a human being, with a warning that if you ever say anything bad about them to anyone you and your family will be hounded to the end of your days.

You have "tithing audits" in the LDS religion and you can have your "temple recommend" (which is the passcard, a real one BTW, that lets you get into the temple and do the central rites of the religion) if you aren't up to snuff on your 10% of gross income.

I disagree with this almost entirely, but I don't want to derail this thread.  If you're interested in continuing this discussion, we could start a new thread.  In politics, of course, since it involves religion and, despite my and your best efforts, will probably get nasty when other people jump in.

You and I will disagree on mostly everything relating to religion. It's ok. I'm not trying to convert you. I'm never going into politics though, EVER AGAIN. I think at this stage in your life and maybe on the whole, you want nothing to do with what I'd have to say, but that's between you and God. I've done the whole "Let's have arguments with atheists" and I've come to the same conclusion every time: it's pointless. Only God can speak to you, and it will have nothing to do with what another Christian says to you. I can only start to talk once you believe the basics of a higher power, which at this point you don't.

<shrug>  I believe in reason and evidence.  I can see no reason or evidence for God.  That's it in a nutshell.

I'm actually becoming so firm in my disbelief, though, that I'm becoming genuinely curious about the other position.  I'm interested to have people try to convert me, to see if there's anything at all that I haven't considered.  One thing on which I agree with many theists is that the question of whether or not there is a God is perhaps the most important question we can ask (which seems obvious when I say it, but many other atheists feel it's irrelevant... how can the nature of all reality be irrelevant?), and as a result of that feeling I want to be as fully informed on the subject as possible.

As it is, I consider myself "more informed than most", but part of what brought me here is continually questioning and looking for reasons behind beliefs.  That includes atheism.  There is evidence that would change my mind, but that evidence doesn't exist as far as has been demonstrated.  I can expose all the logical tricks (Aquinas, Pascal, Anselm) I've heard thus far, but I won't say that there exists no logical demonstration of God's existence.

That said, f13 probably isn't the place to find it.  But I feel that, at the very least, a civil discussion of it could lead to greater understanding between myself and whatever theist could handle it.  Maybe he could see my reasons for disbelieving and, while perhaps not converting himself, at least begin to understand that atheists are not necessarily amoral hedonists.  I might actually try arranging something face to face with a local church official if it looks feasible.  In all honesty, if I were actually shown evidence for God's existence then I'd convert in a second and quickly become an ardent supporter.  It's just that our world so uncannily resembles a world lacking a God.

You can't prove God. You can't rationalize or make God out of logic. That's why I stopped arguing with atheists, because that is what they want. It's sort of akin to arguing feelings vs. realities. You can't explain why people feel the way they do, and you can't rationalize it. It simply is.

I could write a long book that nobody would read about why I believe in a God, and you could probably write one logically explaining why there is absolutely no evidence of one, but our feelings won't change. They are feelings and not subject to logic.

Logic and reason are overrated.

Sure you can.

I have to agree with Paelos, keeping in mind I am an atheist.  For the free-thinking believers and atheists (the rabid ones are focused on the wrong things) it really does come down to Faith.

There is no proof.  You feel he exists or you don't.  Anything else is rationalization of why one feels this way, but it's just that, rationalization.

It's not a matter of faith to disbelieve a hypothesis with no evidence.  Indeed, a hypothesis with no evidence can be dismissed with no evidence.

As an Agnostic I agree (with Paelos and Lantyssa).

But it is also interesting to know why people believe the things they believe, how they came to those beliefs and how they hold on to them and rationalize them (if they do).

Chance is you don't learn about god if you talk to a religious person about him, you learn about the person.

Not to be snarky or anthing, but going by that statement alone, how do you differentiate between that, and a psychological disorder?

You just resign yourself to the fact that you live on a planet full of barely-evolved monkeys fighting over whose imaginary friend is the best.

We're all agnostic to one extent or another.  No, of course I can't say "I know with 100% absolute certainty that there is no God".  I can, however, say that I believe there is no God.

A lot of people view it like this:

Atheist - Agnostic - Theist

But that's a false perception.  A more accurate chart would be

100% Certainty Against God -------------------------- 50/50 Chance of God (and some rain) ------------------------ 100% Certainty of God

Anything on any of the middle spots is technically agnostic.  If you broke that chart into 7 degrees (1=no god, 2=pretty sure there's no god and live accordingly, 3=god is unlikely but wavering, 4=god is just as likely as unlikely, 5=might be a god but wavering, 6=pretty sure there's a god and live accordingly, 7=there's a god), I'd be a 6.

If you substitute Celestial Teapot or Flying Spaghetti Monster or Thor or Osiris or any other assertion that has no evidence at all, I'm a 6 on them as well.  You probably are, too.

Where is the number for "How I live has nothing at all to do with the existence or nonexistence of god"?

Given that the chart is about belief or lack of belief, I'd say the number you want is on a different chart.

You brought the "live accordingly" into it, though. Which I don't get if it is chart about belief and nothing else.

I didn't see this here so I'll post. I get a magazine called Radar. It's...ok. However, they recently had an article where one of their reports covered the protests in Clearwater. The article can be summed up like so.

Day 1: We arrive. These ex-members are paranoid. They keep saying the church will watch us and harass us.
Day 2: The protest is on. Alot of people in this town sure like to use cell-phones to take pictures. I just saw some people taking pictures of the license plates of protestors cars. On another note I think I've seen the same four people half a dozen time in the last 2 hours. I've had my picture taken at least half a dozen times today by complete strangers.
Day 3: We're leaving. I've been followed for the last several hours. People keep giving me looks from businesses across the street, then taking my picture with digital cameras.  I just saw a church member drive by real slow with his window rolled down and take a picture of my car. I can't wait to get out of this crazy cult town!

Clearwater, FL is the new Dunwich, MA.  :awesome_for_real:

The "live accordingly" is an example of action to illustrate the level of (dis)belief.

I could make a case for you being a 2, if you like, since that's essentially the lifestyle of a 2- living without taking into account the desires/feelings/commands of a god.  Nobody lives a particular way because there's no god- you just go on doing what you'd normally do.  It's when you believe in a god that you alter your actions.

I never got folks who label themselves agnostic.  I mean you either believe in some crap or you don't, and this special "undecided" label never seems to come up for any other topic besides god.  I mean I don't technically have 100% certainty that Cthulu doesn't exist, but I don't belabor the point by labeling myself Cthulu-agnostic.  I just go "Of course I don't believe in Cthulu, why the hell would I?"

It's the difference between "I find it highly improbable" and "There is no way, I know for sure".

Most people associate agnosticism with weak athiesm, and I'm OK with that.

He believes in you. :cthulu:

Its also "Don't know for sure, and beside being interested in knowing for its own sake don't care that much either."

Personally I would be fine with Dantes First circle of hell. Sounds like a cool crowd there  :-)

Also, this completely Christianized god we are discussing here is not the only possible higher power. Not every god desires and feels.

I thought we were discussing thetans.  And engrams.

True story.

But a pantheist/deist god doesn't inspire worship, dogma, or, indeed, anything.  So having one of those is functionally the same as not having one.

That's because your mind is just as closed as the worst Evangelists I've ever met. You're so certain in your belief that you find it inconcievable that the entire planet doesn't believe like you. And actually "undecided" comes up all over the place. Politics is one example. "Do you think X is corrupt/electable/etc?" "Don't know I'm still thinking about it."

In otherwords you're a fundamentalist Atheist. Talking to you is as big of a waste of my time as talking to Billy Graham would be. Congratulations!

So you would put deists with Atheist? The ensuing explosion could wipe Earth out faster than a Large Hadron Collider could dream to manage!  :awesome_for_real:

Thetans are boring to discuss Samwise. Everybody can agree Scientologists are both dangerous and lunatics. Where is the challenge in that?

No it's not either "believe in some crap or don't", there's also "I don't know".  Being agnostic isn't about labeling yourself anything it's about refusing to be labeled either religious or atheist.  The entire religious versus atheist argument is retarded, neither side can be proved and neither camp is going to be swayed so everyone should just do their own thing and shut the fuck up about it.

And I've heard agnostic used in non-God related ways as in I'm "current raging debate"-agnostic.

A few people were passing out fliers on campus today, two of which were in masks.  Looks like Houston is scheduled for a protest on Saturday.

Mainly because humanity has a strong need for belief in something.  Religion is an easy one as it's widely accepted by society and a comforting concept.  Despite my being atheist, I have a strong spiritual side that gets repressed because I don't have any metaphysical rationalizations to act as outlets for it.  It's probably a reason why I do so much volunteer work.

The entire world is AFAIK, as with the 2/10 ("Operation Happy Birthday Lisa") and 3/15 ("Operation Happy Birthday L. Ron") events.

This month's is "Operation Reconnect (http://www.reconnect.org/)".

http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=12857.0

This thread is about something important and I want to stop derailing it.

That's how I sum up agnosticism.  My own personal take is, "I don't know, and neither do you.  In fact, the existence of God/the afterlife is unknowable, and therefore speculating on it is a gigantic waste of time".  If Christians ask me what church I go to or try to convert me I usually respond with, "No thanks, I'm not superstitious."  This is guaranteed to provoke rage, which I greatly enjoy.

Atheists irk me in their certainty.  You don't know for certain either, douchebag.

http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=12857.0 !!!

You seem to be assuming that I read a whole thread before replying to a specific post.  Your assumption is wrong.   :drill:

I'm directing you there because I replied.

Holy fuck this thread is doomed.

More making fun of Scientology.  Less "OMFG Atheism is ontologically equivalent to Agnosticism! Faith supersedes reason blah!"

Let's just lay things out quickly here: Whatever someone believes about the mysteries of the universe is secondary to whether the person is a douche.  If someone runs up with arms waving around declaring this person or that person to be bound for damnation, that person is a douche.  If someone feels that they have the moral superiority to look down on Gandhi because he believed in invisible friends in the sky, that person is a douche.  The fact that the person is a douche has no relation to their beliefs on the origin of the universe or the role of faith in life.

That said, my problem with Scientology is that it's run by douches.  I don't care about auditing or thetans or engrams or Xenu, I care about the rainbow of crimes being committed by the organization.  By serendipitous coincidence, that happens to be what all the protesting is about, so it works out well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07m-IvvpK2E

Hey, that's the old QB from 1st and 10.

Shit, every time I read "Clearwater" I assumed it was someplace different than Clearwater, FL.

Is my brain probably melting because I live an hour from there?

No, your brain is melting because you explored the secrets of OT3 before you were ready. You're freewheeling man! It's only a matter of time before the pneumonia sets in and you died. You just had to hear about the space opera before you were ready, didn't you?

Actually, yes - you live 1 hour away from Scientology ground zero. All the dirty malnourished space cadets around who you thought were tweakers are probably sea-org scientologists. Enjoy.

Clearwater beach sucks balls anyway. Just more of a reason not to go there.

Anyone who knows the area at all knows that the good beaches are in Sarasota. (Duh! That's why the old people moved there and not to Clearwater!)

All they have to do is call up Randy (the skeptic) and prove the existence of super powers and I'll join.
I want superpowers.

If they could do that, they would've already.  The Church of Scientology is certainly not going to pass up on a free million dollars.

Not to mention the publicity.


Unfortunately, no one has come forward in so long, they've decided to invest the cash in higher yield investments and close the contest.

Huge fucking necro, but anyone who posted in this thread should read

http://www.tampabay.com/news/article1012148.ece

High-ranking executives of this sham are breaking ranks.

All three parts are out now.  Very interesting read. 

Not really surprising, but definitely illuminating.

I wonder if we'll ever see the truth about scientology.

How many years until L Ron Seldon comes out of the vault to give us an update?

Sir, as an Asimov fan, I am gravely offended by your joke.  Offended, I say.

Oh this should end well.

http://www.tampabay.com/specials/2009/reports/project/

Holy Christ, I'm too scared to click on that video.  The image of that man's face alone screams "pure, unadulterated evil."

I always misread his name as miscarriage  :ye_gods:

I like the part where Scientology is a religion because of IRS budgetary concerns.

Necroing this just to call attention to this article in the New Yorker in case anyone wants to read it. Real long and includes a lot of stuff already known, but the focus on Paul Haggis is pretty interesting:

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/02/14/110214fa_fact_wright?currentPage=all

This is odd simply because I was looking at this thread yesterday while browsing back a couple pages. This was the one thread I happened to stop on and re-read and now it's been necroed. Creeeeepppyyy.

Read that article, it is really the first big story on this I have read ever as I could always tell that the Scientology crowd were a bunch of kooks since as far back as I can remember. The final quote really fits though, especially when you take the words of a lot of the scientologists still involved in the church earlier into consideration.

Interesting article, even if a lot of it feels like more of the same. I do remain staggered by the readiness of people to subscribe to Scientology.

The article contains a lot of the behavior that led me to support the anti-Sci protests.  That whole, 'witness says A, Scientology says B and that witness is an evil pedophile, independent evidence supports A, Scientology has no proof of anything but still keeps claiming B regardless' attitude really sets my teeth on edge.

But I had to smile when I saw that the FBI's nosing around.  I can only hope that some of the things that came to light in the increased scrutiny after the protests began are helping the feds build a case.