The Internet vs Scientology

[Tebonas]

As an Agnostic I agree (with Paelos and Lantyssa).

But it is also interesting to know why people believe the things they believe, how they came to those beliefs and how they hold on to them and rationalize them (if they do).

Chance is you don't learn about god if you talk to a religious person about him, you learn about the person.

[Megrim]

I have to agree with Paelos, keeping in mind I am an atheist.  For the free-thinking believers and atheists (the rabid ones are focused on the wrong things) it really does come down to Faith.

There is no proof.  You feel he exists or you don't.  Anything else is rationalization of why one feels this way, but it's just that, rationalization.

Not to be snarky or anthing, but going by that statement alone, how do you differentiate between that, and a psychological disorder?

[WindupAtheist]

You just resign yourself to the fact that you live on a planet full of barely-evolved monkeys fighting over whose imaginary friend is the best.

[Llava]

We're all agnostic to one extent or another.  No, of course I can't say "I know with 100% absolute certainty that there is no God".  I can, however, say that I believe there is no God.

A lot of people view it like this:

Atheist - Agnostic - Theist

But that's a false perception.  A more accurate chart would be

100% Certainty Against God -------------------------- 50/50 Chance of God (and some rain) ------------------------ 100% Certainty of God

Anything on any of the middle spots is technically agnostic.  If you broke that chart into 7 degrees (1=no god, 2=pretty sure there's no god and live accordingly, 3=god is unlikely but wavering, 4=god is just as likely as unlikely, 5=might be a god but wavering, 6=pretty sure there's a god and live accordingly, 7=there's a god), I'd be a 6.

If you substitute Celestial Teapot or Flying Spaghetti Monster or Thor or Osiris or any other assertion that has no evidence at all, I'm a 6 on them as well.  You probably are, too.

[Tebonas]

Where is the number for "How I live has nothing at all to do with the existence or nonexistence of god"?

[Llava]

Given that the chart is about belief or lack of belief, I'd say the number you want is on a different chart.

[Tebonas]

You brought the "live accordingly" into it, though. Which I don't get if it is chart about belief and nothing else.

[Riggswolfe]

I didn't see this here so I'll post. I get a magazine called Radar. It's...ok. However, they recently had an article where one of their reports covered the protests in Clearwater. The article can be summed up like so.

Day 1: We arrive. These ex-members are paranoid. They keep saying the church will watch us and harass us.
Day 2: The protest is on. Alot of people in this town sure like to use cell-phones to take pictures. I just saw some people taking pictures of the license plates of protestors cars. On another note I think I've seen the same four people half a dozen time in the last 2 hours. I've had my picture taken at least half a dozen times today by complete strangers.
Day 3: We're leaving. I've been followed for the last several hours. People keep giving me looks from businesses across the street, then taking my picture with digital cameras.  I just saw a church member drive by real slow with his window rolled down and take a picture of my car. I can't wait to get out of this crazy cult town!

[stu]

Clearwater, FL is the new Dunwich, MA. 

[Llava]

You brought the "live accordingly" into it, though. Which I don't get if it is chart about belief and nothing else.

The "live accordingly" is an example of action to illustrate the level of (dis)belief.

I could make a case for you being a 2, if you like, since that's essentially the lifestyle of a 2- living without taking into account the desires/feelings/commands of a god.  Nobody lives a particular way because there's no god- you just go on doing what you'd normally do.  It's when you believe in a god that you alter your actions.

[WindupAtheist]

I never got folks who label themselves agnostic.  I mean you either believe in some crap or you don't, and this special "undecided" label never seems to come up for any other topic besides god.  I mean I don't technically have 100% certainty that Cthulu doesn't exist, but I don't belabor the point by labeling myself Cthulu-agnostic.  I just go "Of course I don't believe in Cthulu, why the hell would I?"

[bhodi]

It's the difference between "I find it highly improbable" and "There is no way, I know for sure".

Most people associate agnosticism with weak athiesm, and I'm OK with that.

[Llava]

I just go "Of course I don't believe in Cthulu, why the hell would I?"

He believes in you.

[Tebonas]

Its also "Don't know for sure, and beside being interested in knowing for its own sake don't care that much either."

Personally I would be fine with Dantes First circle of hell. Sounds like a cool crowd there 

Also, this completely Christianized god we are discussing here is not the only possible higher power. Not every god desires and feels.

[Samwise]

I thought we were discussing thetans.  And engrams.

[Llava]

Also, this completely Christianized god we are discussing here is not the only possible higher power. Not every god desires and feels.

True story.

But a pantheist/deist god doesn't inspire worship, dogma, or, indeed, anything.  So having one of those is functionally the same as not having one.

[Riggswolfe]

I never got folks who label themselves agnostic.  I mean you either believe in some crap or you don't, and this special "undecided" label never seems to come up for any other topic besides god.  I mean I don't technically have 100% certainty that Cthulu doesn't exist, but I don't belabor the point by labeling myself Cthulu-agnostic.  I just go "Of course I don't believe in Cthulu, why the hell would I?"

That's because your mind is just as closed as the worst Evangelists I've ever met. You're so certain in your belief that you find it inconcievable that the entire planet doesn't believe like you. And actually "undecided" comes up all over the place. Politics is one example. "Do you think X is corrupt/electable/etc?" "Don't know I'm still thinking about it."

In otherwords you're a fundamentalist Atheist. Talking to you is as big of a waste of my time as talking to Billy Graham would be. Congratulations!

[Tebonas]

So you would put deists with Atheist? The ensuing explosion could wipe Earth out faster than a Large Hadron Collider could dream to manage! 

Thetans are boring to discuss Samwise. Everybody can agree Scientologists are both dangerous and lunatics. Where is the challenge in that?

[Miasma]

I never got folks who label themselves agnostic.  I mean you either believe in some crap or you don't, and this special "undecided" label never seems to come up for any other topic besides god.

No it's not either "believe in some crap or don't", there's also "I don't know".  Being agnostic isn't about labeling yourself anything it's about refusing to be labeled either religious or atheist.  The entire religious versus atheist argument is retarded, neither side can be proved and neither camp is going to be swayed so everyone should just do their own thing and shut the fuck up about it.

And I've heard agnostic used in non-God related ways as in I'm "current raging debate"-agnostic.

[Lantyssa]

A few people were passing out fliers on campus today, two of which were in masks.  Looks like Houston is scheduled for a protest on Saturday.

Not to be snarky or anthing, but going by that statement alone, how do you differentiate between that, and a psychological disorder?

Mainly because humanity has a strong need for belief in something.  Religion is an easy one as it's widely accepted by society and a comforting concept.  Despite my being atheist, I have a strong spiritual side that gets repressed because I don't have any metaphysical rationalizations to act as outlets for it.  It's probably a reason why I do so much volunteer work.

[Samwise]

Looks like Houston is scheduled for a protest on Saturday.

The entire world is AFAIK, as with the 2/10 ("Operation Happy Birthday Lisa") and 3/15 ("Operation Happy Birthday L. Ron") events.

This month's is "Operation Reconnect".

[Llava]

http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=12857.0

This thread is about something important and I want to stop derailing it.

[Big Gulp]

Its also "Don't know for sure, and beside being interested in knowing for its own sake don't care that much either."

That's how I sum up agnosticism.  My own personal take is, "I don't know, and neither do you.  In fact, the existence of God/the afterlife is unknowable, and therefore speculating on it is a gigantic waste of time".  If Christians ask me what church I go to or try to convert me I usually respond with, "No thanks, I'm not superstitious."  This is guaranteed to provoke rage, which I greatly enjoy.

Atheists irk me in their certainty.  You don't know for certain either, douchebag.

[Llava]

Its also "Don't know for sure, and beside being interested in knowing for its own sake don't care that much either."

That's how I sum up agnosticism.  My own personal take is, "I don't know, and neither do you.  In fact, the existence of God/the afterlife is unknowable, and therefore speculating on it is a gigantic waste of time".  If Christians ask me what church I go to or try to convert me I usually respond with, "No thanks, I'm not superstitious."  This is guaranteed to provoke rage, which I greatly enjoy.

Atheists irk me in their certainty.  You don't know for certain either, douchebag.

http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=12857.0 !!!

[Big Gulp]

http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=12857.0 !!!

You seem to be assuming that I read a whole thread before replying to a specific post.  Your assumption is wrong.   

[Llava]

I'm directing you there because I replied.

[sidereal]

Holy fuck this thread is doomed.

More making fun of Scientology.  Less "OMFG Atheism is ontologically equivalent to Agnosticism! Faith supersedes reason blah!"

[Kitsune]

Let's just lay things out quickly here: Whatever someone believes about the mysteries of the universe is secondary to whether the person is a douche.  If someone runs up with arms waving around declaring this person or that person to be bound for damnation, that person is a douche.  If someone feels that they have the moral superiority to look down on Gandhi because he believed in invisible friends in the sky, that person is a douche.  The fact that the person is a douche has no relation to their beliefs on the origin of the universe or the role of faith in life.

That said, my problem with Scientology is that it's run by douches.  I don't care about auditing or thetans or engrams or Xenu, I care about the rainbow of crimes being committed by the organization.  By serendipitous coincidence, that happens to be what all the protesting is about, so it works out well.

[Krakrok]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07m-IvvpK2E

[stray]

Hey, that's the old QB from 1st and 10.

[cmlancas]

Shit, every time I read "Clearwater" I assumed it was someplace different than Clearwater, FL.

Is my brain probably melting because I live an hour from there?

[Dtrain]

No, your brain is melting because you explored the secrets of OT3 before you were ready. You're freewheeling man! It's only a matter of time before the pneumonia sets in and you died. You just had to hear about the space opera before you were ready, didn't you?

Actually, yes - you live 1 hour away from Scientology ground zero. All the dirty malnourished space cadets around who you thought were tweakers are probably sea-org scientologists. Enjoy.

[cmlancas]

Clearwater beach sucks balls anyway. Just more of a reason not to go there.

Anyone who knows the area at all knows that the good beaches are in Sarasota. (Duh! That's why the old people moved there and not to Clearwater!)

[DarkSign]

All they have to do is call up Randy (the skeptic) and prove the existence of super powers and I'll join.
I want superpowers.

[Llava]

If they could do that, they would've already.  The Church of Scientology is certainly not going to pass up on a free million dollars.