Classes

[gravdiggr]

We've been doing all the content with only 3 players (guardian, minstrel, champion). So far, the toughest fight in the whole game has been the final boss in Greater Barrows (we did it with 3 at 25 i think). Seriously, if we could add any 3rd player in our group, it would be a burglar, simply because being able to choose when you want to refill the tank/healer with mana makes every encounters trivial.

People don't really realize their class abilities because the content is extremely easy when done with 6 people. When you really stretch your ressources thin by playing with less than what it was designed for, you get to see the real use of each classes.

[Falconeer]

Please don't tell me:

a) no one is over level 40 so no one knows
b) you don't get any new skill after level 40

As a champion I am pretty worried as my trainer doesn't have any new active skill for me after level 40 and just a couple of boring passives. What's the deal, seriously. No new skills after level 40?

[Tannhauser]

Hate to break it to you but you don't get any new skills after 40, just upgrades to Parry, Evade and Accuracy.

Also your class is getting 'looked at' and will be changed coming with the June 'Shores of Evendim' patch.

Enjoy! 

[Falconeer]

I don't mind a nerf. We surely need one.

It just feels boring not to have any new skill/attack between level 40 and 50.

[Tannhauser]

Well there will be some Traits and Deeds to chase after.  I'm completely obsessed with them now.  :-D

[Falconeer]

I heard about some "light blue scrolls" that are supposed to grant new skills after level 40.
Does any of you know anything about this?

[Riggswolfe]

I think there are some rare drops that are skill books that give you new abilities.

[Nonentity]

Leveling in the Dwarf/Elf area is stupid.

I did an instanced quest yesterday, and it was me (Guardian), a Champion, and 4 Hunters.

Jesus christ.

I am so happy I am not leveling a DPS class.

[Triforcer]

Once in awhile as I look at this game, I wonder if there is a super sekrit Gandalfesque wizard class that is only unlockable through random soul-sucking metrics.  And Turbine, unlike SWG, just KEPT IT A SECRET. 

[CmdrSlack]

Once in awhile as I look at this game, I wonder if there is a super sekrit Gandalfesque wizard class that is only unlockable through random soul-sucking metrics.  And Turbine, unlike SWG, just KEPT IT A SECRET. 

Oddly enough, there's an NPC related to the main storyline who is one of the wizards.  He says something to the effect of, "Yes, I'm a loremaster, but I am also a wizard."  I'm not 100% sure how that's supposed to shake out within the lore, but then again, I can't think of a single example of a loremaster from the books unless you somehow count Elrond since, you know, he knows a ton of shit.

[Tannhauser]

My understanding is that the Tolkien estate wouldn't allow the Wizard class, since there are specifically 5 of them.  So Turbine, thru the books, found and made the Lore Master.

 

[pxib]

Yeah the wizards are sorta like gods in Tolkien. Regular mages are stuck talking to birds and getting rejected by PUGs. That's why you never see them in the books... nobody wants to party with them.

[Johny Cee]

Once in awhile as I look at this game, I wonder if there is a super sekrit Gandalfesque wizard class that is only unlockable through random soul-sucking metrics.  And Turbine, unlike SWG, just KEPT IT A SECRET. 

Oddly enough, there's an NPC related to the main storyline who is one of the wizards.  He says something to the effect of, "Yes, I'm a loremaster, but I am also a wizard."  I'm not 100% sure how that's supposed to shake out within the lore, but then again, I can't think of a single example of a loremaster from the books unless you somehow count Elrond since, you know, he knows a ton of shit.

There were a few people described as "lore masters" in the books.  Denethor, Elrond.  Gandalf mentions discussing the ring with loremasters in Gondor.  It's an interesting way to slip in a pseudo-caster.

[Johny Cee]

Yeah the wizards are sorta like gods in Tolkien. Regular mages are stuck talking to birds and getting rejected by PUGs. That's why you never see them in the books... nobody wants to party with them.

I honestly think you're going to see some love in the healing lines for both LM and Captains.  Just too few minstrels out there,  and lots of folks are getting stuck in the content.

[Riggswolfe]

Yeah the wizards are sorta like gods in Tolkien. Regular mages are stuck talking to birds and getting rejected by PUGs. That's why you never see them in the books... nobody wants to party with them.

I honestly think you're going to see some love in the healing lines for both LM and Captains.  Just too few minstrels out there,  and lots of folks are getting stuck in the content.

You know, I've seen Minstrels playing, and the class actually looks kind of fun at lower levels. They have a ranged pull ability, can heal, and seem to be able to hold their own in small fights.

[Xanthippe]

Those I know who play minstrels are quite taken with them.  Seems to me there are more minstrels in game than captains or LMs.

[Mesozoic]

Funny, every time I wander into Bree its full of Heralds and Bears. 

[Numtini]

The problem isn't that there aren't enough minstrels, is that the quest/killing XP thing very strongly favors not repeating instances or quests. I basically get nothing out of it as a minstrel, so there's no way I'm going to pick up a PUG the way I grabbed random PUGs for elite XP in WOW instances.

So you have a lot of minstrels out there soloing quests painfully while a lot of groups are shouting for us to join them in an instance we'd rather be in than soloing.

[Mesozoic]

The problem isn't that there aren't enough minstrels, is that the quest/killing XP thing very strongly favors not repeating instances or quests. I basically get nothing out of it as a minstrel, so there's no way I'm going to pick up a PUG the way I grabbed random PUGs for elite XP in WOW instances.

So you have a lot of minstrels out there soloing quests painfully while a lot of groups are shouting for us to join them in an instance we'd rather be in than soloing.

But just as no minstrel wants to repeat an instance, neither does any champ, guard, LM, or anyone else.  Theres nothing special about being a minstrel that makes re-runs unpopular. So why the lack of healers?   

Put another way: Minstrel A joins Champ A, Hunter A, and Guardian A and runs through, say, Avert a War.  Later on, Champ B, Hunter B and Guardian B want to do the same instance.  Of course Minstrel A isn't interested - he's run it.  But where is Minstrel B?

[gravdiggr]

Actually, the difference is that the minstrel looking for group for a certain quest won't have to wait to find a group and get inside the instance, while the rest of the classes will be sitting there waiting on the next free minstrel who needs the quest.

Honestly, the healing mecanism is incredibly boring in LOTRO. You basically have an amazing group hp regen song as a tier 4 (so you either need to chorus to tier3-4 to buff the group or cast without resists your tier1-2 songs to get to that point without letting anybody die in the process), you have a fast heal that costs around 60 mana for 200 hp and a big heal that costs around 60 mana for 600 hp (depends on the level obviously, but the concept remains the same). After that, you have a group heal that costs around 180 mana for 200 hp on everyone, which means that the group heal is more efficient than the small heal as long as more than 3 people need it. In terms of total healing, the group heal cannot be more efficient than 3 big heals. Other than that, you have an instant group heal (700 hp i think) that brings in a lot of aggro, but it is on a 15 minutes timer, so it's basically as if you had nothing.

So in terms of healing, you have a song on a 3 mins timer that you put on whenever you have a big fight, a fast heal, a big heal and a crappy heal. To be efficient, you need to use only the big heal. You're forced to use the small one when the tank doesn't have aggro on everything obviously.

With healing that boring, not much decisions to make, looking at 6 bunches of health bars (with mana bars in the middle) + all the bars for the awful pets, being the heal-bot is pretty much the worst thing you can have to do. Therefore, you don't have a lot of healers in game. Minstrel prefere soloing/duoing because they can use their other skills instead of just watching 8-9 healthbars all fight long. Add the fact that most group have terrible tanks and that healers will eat the dust with crappy tanks, and you have a mix where you'd have to pay me to group with pickup groups when they are asking for minstrels for 2 hours.

[Numtini]

The difference is that at level 30 I've never seen anything I needed any class other than a minstrel to take on. A champ can tank quite fine. I've done quests that absolutely needed a minstrel where we had burlgars tanking.

[Tannhauser]

It's a matter of taste and playstyle.  Healing isn't too hard in LoTR in combat and I like standing back healing while others fight for my xp and loots. 

Also the class is very fun for me to solo.  A bit slow but pretty safe with heals and a Cry of the Valar to chase off enemies if it gets too rough.

Grouping.  Many times I am the last to join a group since Minstrels are so in demand.  This means there is no downtime while the group is formed.  My new vow is not to join a group that doesn't have a Guardian.  Guardians make my life much easier; healing is easier and I don't die as much from over-healing aggro.

I'd like to make a macro to play my songs in order.  Yes I am THAT lazy.

[Johny Cee]

Honestly, the healing mecanism is incredibly boring in LOTRO. You basically have an amazing group hp regen song as a tier 4 (so you either need to chorus to tier3-4 to buff the group or cast without resists your tier1-2 songs to get to that point without letting anybody die in the process), you have a fast heal that costs around 60 mana for 200 hp and a big heal that costs around 60 mana for 600 hp (depends on the level obviously, but the concept remains the same). After that, you have a group heal that costs around 180 mana for 200 hp on everyone, which means that the group heal is more efficient than the small heal as long as more than 3 people need it. In terms of total healing, the group heal cannot be more efficient than 3 big heals. Other than that, you have an instant group heal (700 hp i think) that brings in a lot of aggro, but it is on a 15 minutes timer, so it's basically as if you had nothing.

So in terms of healing, you have a song on a 3 mins timer that you put on whenever you have a big fight, a fast heal, a big heal and a crappy heal. To be efficient, you need to use only the big heal. You're forced to use the small one when the tank doesn't have aggro on everything obviously.

With healing that boring, not much decisions to make, looking at 6 bunches of health bars (with mana bars in the middle) + all the bars for the awful pets, being the heal-bot is pretty much the worst thing you can have to do. Therefore, you don't have a lot of healers in game. Minstrel prefere soloing/duoing because they can use their other skills instead of just watching 8-9 healthbars all fight long. Add the fact that most group have terrible tanks and that healers will eat the dust with crappy tanks, and you have a mix where you'd have to pay me to group with pickup groups when they are asking for minstrels for 2 hours.

This is a factor in ANY game that has a specialized healing class with defined class skills.  It's far more efficient to have your healer concentrate on healing than doing anything else, so the player base forces the healers to play that way.  This is also why hybrid classes inevitably suck in these games.  It's better to be really, really good at one thing than mediocre at many.

DAoC, you had main healers (druid and cleric) that were efficient in combat.  The players were up in arms.  Albion players got their own main healer's damage line nerfed into the ground,  while Hibernia players just ostercized their nature druids.

Players will min/max the hell out of everything,  even if it makes the play experience less fun.  Insert old f13/waterthread truism "people are broken" or "can't have good things" or whatever.

[Xanthippe]

In DAOC, Midgard's healers had nothing in terms of combat.  Healing and cc.  Great for groups but boy, did it suck to level up solo.

I've since learned not to play classes that cannot solo decently, since my playstyle tends to be more solo.

[Tarami]

...
Honestly, the healing mecanism is incredibly boring in LOTRO.
...

Unfortunately gravdiggr is right on the money. The healing is static and basically free from action, mainly because you have no option to heal "smarter" (as far as that is possible) so you end up spamming only your largest heal. The faster heal is half as efficient (half the amount, same cost) and got a cooldown, making it just as slow (if not slower, incorporating network and UI latency) as the large heal when chain cast. It's purely used as an emergency heal, and seriously, how often are you in the kind of hurry that a second actually matters? It's a bit like a tank being shot from behind - you probably screwed up long before the problem arose. Nor is there any natural way of restoring mana, you have to rely on potions or skills with cooldown to do that (or a lore-master, if you manage to find either of the two in existance), hence you can't develop a good rhytm of healing and resting as there's no point in not healing. The problem isn't strictly the ability to heal through encounters, it's that you become bored even during boss fights.

Secondly, the tiering system makes sense for a while, but it grows old very fast, since the lower tiers got nothing remotely useful in a group scenario - you just use whatever skill you can to open the next tier of abilities. Another issue is that the group buffs given from the songs last 15 or 30 seconds, meaning you have to consistently keep singing the same crap songs just to access a few decent one in tier 3 and 4. It looks clever on paper, but it's tedious and unengaging in an instance, which should be about action, even for the healer. Healing is defensive, but it can be enjoyable and thrilling in its own right, as shown by other games. Supposedly Turbine wanted you to DPS aswell, but DPSing with a third of the DPS of a Champion or a Hunter feels wasted and not fun.

I'm actually slightly puzzled with the decision to make the Minstrel a seemingly subpar healer, considering how Guardians, Hunters and Champions slot nearly perfectly into the tried-and-tested tank'n'spank mechanics. Guardians are awesome, I hear.

[gravdiggr]

My biggest problem with the healing is the real lack of choices.
We did a fight yesterday which was 50% awesome (because we won) and 50% retarded (because i wouldn't redo that ever again).

The mob in question is called grimbark, level 32 nemesis tree in the elite instance of the red maid. The tree in question has a pretty bad ass health regen. We were a 33 minstrel, a 33 guardian and a 33 champion. Even though i optimized my mana a lot and i have 2.6 in combat mana regen (which gives me 16-18 mana per tick instead of 8-10), it still took me 14 greater mana potion to get through the fight. The god damn tree died i had 26 mana left. I'm not sure wether the reuse time on the potions is 3,4 or 5 minutes, but it gives you an idea of how long the fight lasted. Reminded me of EQluclin to a certain extent.

It was fun for the fact i never thought we'd kill him with our group, but it was the biggest example of how little choices you have in terms of healing. There's a limit to how much you can min-max your efficiency when you only have 1 heal spell to bring to the table.

[shiznitz]

That fight does sound like it sucked, but is that really a flaw in the class design or in how your group approached it? High regen mobs are defeated through high DPS or attrition. Attrition is usually more reliable but it is also boring as hell. Maybe as a trio you had no choice but attrition. I don't know LotRO at all, but it seems like this fight didn't need to painful unlike Luclin raids where there was no other option since changing a few classes out of 40 doesn't make a huge difference at the margin when a mob has a billion hit points.

[gravdiggr]

Yes, we could have brought more people, but honestly, if we're able to do fights with only 3 level appropriate people, can you just imagine how trivial the whole game becomes when you bring 6 like you're supposed to ?

The point i was trying to make is that i was able to keep on healing for more than 40 consecutive minutes by only using 1 spell, waiting on potions timers and having good in-combat mana regen.

I usually play healers (or support like the bard in FFXI) and i can tell you that a system where you have a fast super innefficient heal, a big efficient heal and an horrendous group heal is pretty much the worst healing system a mmo has ever had.

Actually, it reminds me of eq1, kunark-velious era, where the only spell worth mentioning for efficiency was CompleteHeal.

[Riggswolfe]

Yes, we could have brought more people, but honestly, if we're able to do fights with only 3 level appropriate people, can you just imagine how trivial the whole game becomes when you bring 6 like you're supposed to ?

I wonder if this is going to be like WoW. Relatively easy until endgame and then soul-crushing raids?

I wilted when I heard they were putting in raids.

[Mesozoic]

"Raid" better still mean 6 people.  If The Fellowship of the Ring was able drop said ring into Mount Doom with two Hobbits, theres no reason to require 20+ people to do anything.

[Furiously]

And 2 hobbits defended Helm's Deep?

[Glazius]

I usually play healers (or support like the bard in FFXI) and i can tell you that a system where you have a fast super innefficient heal, a big efficient heal and an horrendous group heal is pretty much the worst healing system a mmo has ever had.

Never play City of Heroes, then, I think you might explode from fury.

--GF

[Mesozoic]

And 2 hobbits defended Helm's Deep?

Wouldn't that be an example of a Monster Play battle?  :P

[Tarami]

Raids in LotRO can take up to 4 fellowships, i.e. 24 people. From the looks of the June update, raids will, as mentioned, center around battles rather than dungeoncrawling. Although, I'm pretty sure we'll see a Moria raid sooner or later, battling the Balrog as a final encounter. Other than that, raids were a late addition to the game, so it's hard to say where they intend to go with them, considering they seemingly added them to be competetive with WoW.

However, Turbine is putting a great deal of effort in to retain a rough feel of Middle-earth, almost to the point where it seems to cripple game design decisions, so on the other hand we might never see the typical raid encounters in LotRO. Personally I'd like to see the real, legendary bad guys remain alive. Middle-earth is meant to be dangerous and with entities powerful enough to withstand armies, let alone a shoddy bunch of adventurers.

On the patch: http://www.lotro.com/article/327
On raids: http://www.lotro.com/article/130

[Riggswolfe]

I'm holding my judgement on the raids but I'm not a big fan of them. Raids are the #1 reason I left WOW.