Dark Days Are Coming - New Funcom Project

[Spiff]

Ay, that's the way I remember it as well.
It's all a good laugh at first walking into a group halfway through the dungeon; "oh look, other people ... in an MMO! cool." and then they tag the boss you were eyeing; "kill 'em all, raawrgh!!".

Which was fun in itself, random fighting in a city sewer seemed very 'Conan' and all, but if you want that kind of fun you really need to balance the whole game around it or you're going to end up with a severely butthurt playerbase and/or dungeon-design that falls to pieces when the relevant population diminishes a bit.

[Ingmar]

To really make it work you'd probably need to at least do away with the idea of bosses (at least ones with fixed spawn points) and really any kind of camping.

[Dark_MadMax]

You guys keep stating the flawed design as the reason why non instanced world does not work. Bosses dont need to be  "tagged", they dont need to "drop" rewards in form of loot (they can give points and not require anything but participation -similar to what rift does) , the whole "run instance x till you get purple drops" crap needs go away. I like exploring world , not running threadmills .And yeah I d like meet other players there  - cause otherwise I can do my exploring in offline RPGs just fine

[Typhon]

I'm the opposite.  I like the GW design.  I like when there are people in the cities.  When I'm out exploring, I like to see no one else, especially not some jumping jackass that runs up and helps me with a mob that I need no help with - I'm exploring the uncharted wilderness, not visiting a strip mall.

I do think there is room for public sewers/dungeons/etc near the cities, but I'd think that these areas should be PvP-focused.  Not hurr-hurr, I gank you!  Something different. 

Example: something like a role-based experience.  Say you find a "something" down in the sewer.  By interacting with it, you become the 'escort'.  The first group that attacks the target becomes the 'assassin'.  Now it's escorts versus assassins.  Everyone else is neutral unless they join the escort/assassin group.  The whole experience ends when either the target has been compromised or escorted to it's destination.

If you are just down there to grind, you don't ever need to interact with a target.

[Mrbloodworth]

You guys keep stating the flawed design as the reason why non instanced world does not work. Bosses dont need to be  "tagged", they dont need to "drop" rewards in form of loot (they can give points and not require anything but participation -similar to what rift does) , the whole "run instance x till you get purple drops" crap needs go away. I like exploring world , not running threadmills .And yeah I d like meet other players there  - cause otherwise I can do my exploring in offline RPGs just fine

Yeah, but we were talking about reality.

[tmp]

I like exploring world , not running threadmills.

That's nice, there's MMO player archetype for that. Along with three quite different others.

[jth]

The most fun dungeon experiences I've ever had were in UO and DAoC (and I've played pretty much everything), in neither of those was there ever any problem with people camping bosses, or if they were camping, it wasn't the end of the world since there were other places to go to. Of course if you design your game the way that everyone needs to kill boss x repeatedly, instancing helps but it's really a band-aid imho.

[jth]

You guys keep stating the flawed design as the reason why non instanced world does not work. Bosses dont need to be  "tagged", they dont need to "drop" rewards in form of loot (they can give points and not require anything but participation -similar to what rift does) , the whole "run instance x till you get purple drops" crap needs go away. I like exploring world , not running threadmills .And yeah I d like meet other players there  - cause otherwise I can do my exploring in offline RPGs just fine

Yeah, but we were talking about reality.

With reality, do you mean that the "we want everything now, here and just for us" generation has taken over and game design has to play by their desires now? You could be right, and that would suck, but I hope we aren't quite there yet.

[Xuri]

We've been there for more than six years already, jth.

[Mrbloodworth]

You guys keep stating the flawed design as the reason why non instanced world does not work. Bosses dont need to be  "tagged", they dont need to "drop" rewards in form of loot (they can give points and not require anything but participation -similar to what rift does) , the whole "run instance x till you get purple drops" crap needs go away. I like exploring world , not running threadmills .And yeah I d like meet other players there  - cause otherwise I can do my exploring in offline RPGs just fine

Yeah, but we were talking about reality.

With reality, do you mean that the "we want everything now, here and just for us" generation has taken over and game design has to play by their desires now? You could be right, and that would suck, but I hope we aren't quite there yet.

I have no way to respond to you.

I'm sorry.

[jth]

We've been there for more than six years already, jth.

Yeah, but I kind of hope we can fight it for a while longer. Still I guess eventually us old timers will find ourselves on some UO or other freeshard and reminisce about the good old times, when online games were all about the social aspect and community, in good or sometimes bad but still the point of it was more an "alternate reality" rather than a game.

[Typhon]

We've been there for more than six years already, jth.

Yeah, but I kind of hope we can fight it for a while longer. Still I guess eventually us old timers will find ourselves on some UO or other freeshard and reminisce about the good old times, when online games were all about the social aspect and community, in good or sometimes bad but still the point of it was more an "alternate reality" rather than a game.

I'm an old time gamer and I never wanted an alternate reality.  I'm sure that there are newer gamers that would like a sand box game.

Seems like those folks are in the minority, but it could be that it's because no one created a really compelling sandbox yet.  Implying that people who don't like sandbox games are selfish twats simply because they have a different set of likes is pretty self-important.

[Ingmar]

The most fun dungeon experiences I've ever had were in UO and DAoC (and I've played pretty much everything), in neither of those was there ever any problem with people camping bosses, or if they were camping, it wasn't the end of the world since there were other places to go to. Of course if you design your game the way that everyone needs to kill boss x repeatedly, instancing helps but it's really a band-aid imho.

No problems with camping in DAOC? You were obviously never in Stonehenge Barrows on a crowded Albion server. Even our little Midgard on Igraine could pretty easily camp every single spawn point in Spindelhalla.

[Margalis]

Minecraft seems to be doing pretty well and that's more sandboxy than the sandboxiest of MMOs.

This "new generation of gamers" whining is a little sad. Stop waving your canes.

[SnakeCharmer]

when online games were all about the social aspect and community

Over-fucking-rated.

[jth]

The most fun dungeon experiences I've ever had were in UO and DAoC (and I've played pretty much everything), in neither of those was there ever any problem with people camping bosses, or if they were camping, it wasn't the end of the world since there were other places to go to. Of course if you design your game the way that everyone needs to kill boss x repeatedly, instancing helps but it's really a band-aid imho.

No problems with camping in DAOC? You were obviously never in Stonehenge Barrows on a crowded Albion server. Even our little Midgard on Igraine could pretty easily camp every single spawn point in Spindelhalla.

I was exactly in Stonehenge Barrows on a crowded Albion server, but it really wasn't that bad. Maybe a couple nights we couldn't camp what we wanted to camp, but it wasn't any real issue.

[Dark_MadMax]

Over-fucking-rated.

Tell my why? because its the only aspect which elevate online games vs offline ones. Playing with and against other people. Thats the crux of the issue ppl  are being sold fake epeen boosters in the form of farmville and purples and they swallow  it and ask for more!

[johnnymoore]

[/quote]
Yeah, but I kind of hope we can fight it for a while longer. Still I guess eventually us old timers will find ourselves on some UO or other freeshard and reminisce about the good old times, when online games were all about the social aspect and community, in good or sometimes bad but still the point of it was more an "alternate reality" rather than a game.
[/quote]

How is running an instance with a group not social?

And how is the social aspect of the game enhanced by sharing the instance with other groups. For example, how would running Deadmines in WoW been better if my group bumped into another group at the end?

I don't get it.

[Count Nerfedalot]

Some people think the self-revelatory definition of MMO requires that you play with every asshat on the internet and like it or leave.  Other people think they should be able to enjoy huge online worlds with vast amounts of content and the ability to only ever encounter their pre-selected friends and never see or hear a single asshat the whole time they are in the game.

The reality is, both are wrong, and developers have to try stake out some position in the middle where you can play with your friends and not have your fun spoiled too often/severely by asshats while still fostering an environment where you bump into enough people to continue to make new friends to replace the ones who leave so you stay and continue to pay or they loose their jobs.

People who scream about any instancing, or who scream about needing everything instanced are just selfish pricks who somehow think they deserve a Massive Multiplayer game to be designed just for them and not to include the Massive Others who must also play in order for it to be a success.

That said, I sure wish my ignore list did a better job of eliminating listed asshats from my game entirely.  Not only do I not want to hear their drivel, I don't want to buy from them or sell to them on the broker/auction house, group with them by accident, or have any of my spells affect them in any way.  I want my ignore list to cause the game to treat the bastards on it as if they didn't exist on the same server as me.  (Note this is only for the PvE portion of the game, naturally.  Which is all I play anyway.)

[UnSub]

Minecraft seems to be doing pretty well and that's more sandboxy than the sandboxiest of MMOs.

It also has the option to play in the sandbox completely by yourself.

However, I agree that the whole "gamers these days have it easy!" bit is tired. Modern games have a more streamlined experience because developers learned that players don't want to have to start again at the beginning of the level every time they die (or variations thereof). I appreciate that.

[Mrbloodworth]

Some people seem to place the idea of "Conscious decisions" on a genre that was really simply new and had not been refined yet. In other words, it seems some seem to mistake many of the early games shortfalls, as some sort of design that was deliberate, instead of simply necessary at the time, Due to budgets, Technology, or simply not knowing any better or trying to pioneer and invent.

Do you REALLY think EQ would have NOT had ? over every NPC if someone had thought of it back then? Really? NPC interaction at the time was based on MUD like communication. That's it. There really is no "Grand vision" that made it that way. It was all they knew, and many MMO's were based off MUD code bases.

Do you REALLY think it would have never used an instance if they had them back then? REALLY?  

[palmer_eldritch]

When people say they don't like instances, that doesn't mean they are asking for a DIKU mud without instances. Many people have made the point, perhaps undiplomatically on occasion, that other types of MMO are possible.

For me, at least, I would like to see a developer with money take inspiration from games such as UO, vanilla SWG and Eve rather than EQ or WoW. In other words, on the virtual world vs game scale, I come down on the worldy side. That probably means, among other things, no instances. It doesn't mean a diku where you have to compete with other groups to camp the boss, it means not a diku. (I am aware, btw, that I am in a minority).

As far as I can tell, this whole debate began when someone mentioned The Secret World may not have instances and some of us said "ooh, that sounds interesting". So let's chill out a little:)

[HaemishM]

Do you REALLY think it would have never used an instance if they had them back then? REALLY?  

In the case of EQ, yes I do, because it was designed by a cockmunching drug addicted fucktard who thought taking out Nagafen and Vox was the pinnacle of gaming heaven.

[Ingmar]

Minecraft seems to be doing pretty well and that's more sandboxy than the sandboxiest of MMOs.

It would be utterly unworkable as a true MMO without fundamental changes, just due to the griefing potential. Probably it would require so many changes to make it palatable on that front that it would be almost unrecognizable as the same game.

[Surlyboi]

I'm with Palmer. Give me something worldy like SWG and I'm in. I don't need to whack king foozle #642 in his foozle lair for phat lewtz, Let me run free in the London underground or the New York or Tokyo subways killing extra-dimensional douchebags and this game will keep me coming back for more.

[Typhon]

To make that work, the developer needs to understand how to make being an anonymous, selfish douchebag harshly counter-productive.

[Furiously]

To make that work, the developer needs to understand how to make being an anonymous, selfish douchebag harshly counter-productive.

Attach their real name and address to their character?

[jth]

Yeah, but I kind of hope we can fight it for a while longer. Still I guess eventually us old timers will find ourselves on some UO or other freeshard and reminisce about the good old times, when online games were all about the social aspect and community, in good or sometimes bad but still the point of it was more an "alternate reality" rather than a game.

How is running an instance with a group not social?

And how is the social aspect of the game enhanced by sharing the instance with other groups. For example, how would running Deadmines in WoW been better if my group bumped into another group at the end?

I don't get it.

For me it is obvious. I don't know how to explain it to you, only analogy I can come up with quickly is that if I went to visit Tokyo with my friends, I'd rather like it how it is now instead of having all other people magically disappear for the duration of our visit.

[Count Nerfedalot]

Yeah, but I kind of hope we can fight it for a while longer. Still I guess eventually us old timers will find ourselves on some UO or other freeshard and reminisce about the good old times, when online games were all about the social aspect and community, in good or sometimes bad but still the point of it was more an "alternate reality" rather than a game.

How is running an instance with a group not social?

And how is the social aspect of the game enhanced by sharing the instance with other groups. For example, how would running Deadmines in WoW been better if my group bumped into another group at the end?

I don't get it.

For me it is obvious. I don't know how to explain it to you, only analogy I can come up with quickly is that if I went to visit Tokyo with my friends, I'd rather like it how it is now instead of having all other people magically disappear for the duration of our visit.

I dunno. A more appropriate analogy would be a visit to Disneyland, which would actually be a whole lot more fun if most if not all of the other visitors there did indeed magically disappear for the duration of your visit.

[johnnymoore]

"For me it is obvious. I don't know how to explain it to you, only analogy I can come up with quickly is that if I went to visit Tokyo with my friends, I'd rather like it how it is now instead of having all other people magically disappear for the duration of our visit. "

You are correct. You didn't explain it. 

If I'm following you, Deadmines being instanced in Wow is equivalent to every other player on the server magically disappearing from the server?

Or.. when you visit Tokyo , because you don't want every other person to magically disappear, it's ok for random people to walk into your friends house while you are sharing dinner and take food off the table?

I still don't get it.

[jth]

"For me it is obvious. I don't know how to explain it to you, only analogy I can come up with quickly is that if I went to visit Tokyo with my friends, I'd rather like it how it is now instead of having all other people magically disappear for the duration of our visit. "

You are correct. You didn't explain it. 

If I'm following you, Deadmines being instanced in Wow is equivalent to every other player on the server magically disappearing from the server?

No, but they're magically disappearing from my point of view which breaks the immersion.

Or.. when you visit Tokyo , because you don't want every other person to magically disappear, it's ok for random people to walk into your friends house while you are sharing dinner and take food off the table?

Do you think it has to be one of those options and nothing in between? It's not those extremes in reality, so why should it be in a game?

[Margalis]

This just boils down to some people like some things and other people like other things. I cannot seriously believe that anyone thinks trying to convince someone else on this issue is a good way to spend time.

[johnnymoore]

"Do you think it has to be one of those options and nothing in between? It's not those extremes in reality, so why should it be in a game?"

I do think there is an option in between. That option is the instance.

WoW is a persistent shared space. The instance is a private space in the the greater shared world. Just as having dinner in a home is a private space in a larger, shared community like Toyko. Everyone else still exists in the world, even if you are in an instance or a private home. They are there, even if you can't see them.

You seem to be saying that there is no in between. Or , at least, that is what I am hearing.

[Rasix]

Use the quote function. 

Or else. 

[jth]

I give up the fight for now, it's gotten enough off topic as it is and I'm surprised it wasn't moved to politics or the den :) As I mentioned I'm very passionate about the instance thing but this is probably the wrong thread to fight about it.