CCP loses their marbles (ISK sales)

[Simond]

http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=515615

In regards to the comments about ISK for GTCs for Cash, we are putting the final touches on a billing solution that will replace the ISK/GTC/Cash system. Game time for ISK will no longer be a supported option and phased out.

Some clarification is in order, I left out some important parts of the system.

Game Time for ISK will still be a legit transaction, but a transaction that will take place within Account Management. There will not be a middleman purchasing GTCs for resale for ISK.

As with any major change, there will be unhappiness and some members of the community will go on to another game. That is unavoidable, but the change being worked on is for the greater good of the community.

So...pay a monthly fee until your character gets to self-sufficiency, then pay with ISK - using CCP's bandwidth/server hardware/etc. to farm the ISK - to fund your play time in which you'll use more of CCP's bandwidth. I don't think they thought their cunning plan all the way through.

[Trippy]

This is very confusing. Will you be able to "buy" ISK still? If so and its done through CCP are they setting the price?

[Simond]

It looks like it's direct ISK-for-timecard via CCP (no middleman).
In other words: Pay subs until your character can support itself, then don't pay CCP another penny after that.

[Trippy]

If it's one way only that's bad, made worse by the fact that CCP is presumably setting the exchange rate rather than letting the "market" dictate the rate.

[Simond]

It also brings up the old can o' worms which is "Virtual goods with actual worth" - if CCP sells timecards directly for either $15 or X million ISK, then does X million ISK = $15? No more wriggle-room of claiming it's a 3rd party/grey market/etc. which isn't supported in the EULA/TOS.

Edit: Also, this is going to make the macrominers very happy - all they have to do is undercut CCP slightly and they'll be set.



Edit2: New thread

The recent MotD mentioning the sale or purchase of ISK for real money generated some questions about how Game Time can be traded for ISK, Game Time that was purchased with real world cash. In some of my replies, I was unclear. This wasn't by intention, but because of the information I am authorized to release at this time.

In the future, CCP will introduce a billing solution replacing the current system that allows the purchase of game time from third parties for in-game ISK. In essence, it will be possible for a time and ISK-rich, but financially challenged player to purchase game time directly from CCP. Game Time codes will still be available for purchase, but the trade of game time codes for ISK will no longer be an approved payment option.

We still have a number of details to work out, as well as implementation and integration, but that will hopefully clear up some of the confusion created earlier.


kieron
Community Manager,
EVE Online

Big win for macrominers and certain ISK-rich alliances (*cough*BoB*cough*), big lose for everyone else...including CCP. Madness.

[MahrinSkel]

I'm having a hard time figuring out how this will work.  Right now it's a free market, anyone can convert cash to isk.  It *sounds* like they're going to cut that off, which raises the question: What are these "third parties" going to do with the ISK?  Where are they going to get the cash to buy the gametime?

I'm not liking this much, a narrower supply of gametime will mean higher ISK prices for it.

--Dave

[Simond]

Some people will just quit. Some people will continue to buy game-time using isk, and a certain percentage of those people will start buying said isk from IGE and their analogues. If CCP isn't very careful with pricing, the in-game economy will go into meltdown. Plus the aforementioned can of worms re: in-game cash with a dev-endorsed RL exchange rate

Benefits: Small.
Potential for utter fuckup: Large.

[Fordel]

I don't get it.


Currently someone buys GTC and sells them for ISK. CCP still gets the sub fee.


As I read the new system, no one actually buys GTC, CCP sells time for ISK direct and there is no sub fee paid...


I *HAVE* to be missing something, it doesn't make any sense.

[Comstar]

So if I want extra game time, I pay CCP some in game ISK. Get a faction spawn or be in a big Corp that can pay for my gametime and I never pay CCP anything ever again.

If I want extra ISK, I go to ebay and buy it from a hack seller and if I get discovered by CCP, banned.



So players can't buy ISK and they can sell ISK and NOT pay CCP for playing time. This is a Wile E Coyote level of Genius.

[JoeTF]

Edit: Seems overly stupid, but I' going to see how the actual implementation is going to be like.

[Ratadm]

Good odds Kieron just sucks at explaining, my guess what will actually happen: CCP will take over the gtc sales and the only place to buy/sell them will be through CCP.  No third party sites selling, probably no code to can see and trade eliminating possibility of trading isk for cash.    People will still buy and sell the cards just they'll have to use CCP to do it.

[Der Helm]

The first impression I got, was that they are planing to get rid of the possibility to fund your gametime via in-game cash. After reading the statement a few times I am not so sure what they are aiming at.

[Morat20]

Good odds Kieron just sucks at explaining, my guess what will actually happen: CCP will take over the gtc sales and the only place to buy/sell them will be through CCP.  No third party sites selling, probably no code to can see and trade eliminating possibility of trading isk for cash.    People will still buy and sell the cards just they'll have to use CCP to do it.

That makes sense. Just fully automate and integrate the process, let it all happen 'under the hood' and it cuts down on everyone's hassle and removes whatever remnant of demand remained for the gold farmers.

[Simond]

Apart from the fact that the demand will still be there - the change will be from grey market "RL cash -> ISK -> Timecard -> RL cash" (where CCP gets a cut) to black market "Macrominers generate isk, sell on playerauctions for $$$" (where CCP gets nothing).

[Morat20]

Apart from the fact that the demand will still be there - the change will be from grey market "RL cash -> ISK -> Timecard -> RL cash" (where CCP gets a cut) to black market "Macrominers generate isk, sell on playerauctions for $$$" (where CCP gets nothing).

I don't think they're going that way -- mostly because that doesn't make any sense. I think that was just a crappy explanation. I think what they're wanting to do is remove the third party GTC->ISK mechanism entirely, so that you can go to your account page on eve-online and pick "Pay for the next three months with ISK and lose a billion ISK" or "Purchase ISK" and plop down 20 bucks for whatever the CCP set rate is and the ISK just shows up in your toon's account.

On another note, if CCP takes it over entirely, they can probably bleed ISK from the system slowly if the economy is running too hot.

[TripleDES]

I guess Band of Developers doesn't like Goonfleet subsidizing their crap by selling reward GTCs for isku they get from affiliated GTC sellers.

Anyway, I don't see where their system goes. Directly buying gametime with isk? Sinking virtual money into CCPs pot kind of implies that they'll also open a money exchange. CCP can't make profit from isks if they can't trade it back to real money.

[Yegolev]

Fishy.  Only thing I can figure is that they are trying to remove ISK from the game somehow, or they want to punish anyone that isn't in a hardcore alliance.  I predict that it will all be made perfectly clear once we figure out who would be getting all the money that the GTC/ISK trade no longer generated.

Of course, the tinfoil-hat theories are good ones, too, but I would have thought that BoB corps get ISK via GTC as well, just like everyone else.

[Yoru]

I guess Band of Developers doesn't like Goonfleet subsidizing their crap by selling reward GTCs for isku they get from affiliated GTC sellers.

I've yelled at people before for this. Enough of that shit. It's as stupid and puerile as "Micro$oft".

[dwindlehop]

My impression is that the hardcore fund alt accounts via excess isk, not that they fund cap ships with dollars. It would be interesting to see the statistics.

[MahrinSkel]

I know that some people have invested $50-150 US or so in replacing standard capitals.  And you can trace pretty clear dips in the isk price of GTC's the week after major capital losses (F-T dropped it by nearly half).  But that's a billion here, billion there kind of thing, I don't think anyone has tried to fund a supercapital that way (it would take about $1500-3000 for a mothership, about $6000-15,000 for a titan).  You'd have to do it over the course of months not to completely tank the price and drive up your real-dollar cost.

The vast majority of the demand is second and third accounts people don't want to pay cash for, the supply is from a lot of different motivations.  I sold a couple of 90-day codes after I had been in 3 months to fund a trading venture, since then I've purchased about 2 years worth of game time for isk.

--Dave

[tmp]

In the future, CCP will introduce a billing solution replacing the current system that allows the purchase of game time from third parties for in-game ISK. In essence, it will be possible for a time and ISK-rich, but financially challenged player to purchase game time directly from CCP. Game Time codes will still be available for purchase, but the trade of game time codes for ISK will no longer be an approved payment option.

That sounds like two different changes, just really badly worded. One is CCP no longer allowing official GTC-cash exchange between players while the codes are still being sold (either by 3rd party or CCP themselves) And the other is possible introduction of system where one pays their fee with ISK, in addition to GTC sales. Since the average player sticks around for something like 8 months if I recall right, the number of people who will use that ISK payment option may be insignificant enough to have little impact on their earnings overall.

[slog]

I don't see any confusion as to what he's saying

1) Players will be able to have ISK removed from their Virtual Bank Accounts and recieve another month of game time from CCP.

2) The trading of Game Time Cards for ISK is being removed.

3) The selling of Game Time Cards for real world cash will continue.


No where does he say that CCP is gong to sell ISK.  This doesn't look to be Company endorsed RMT.  I'd say it's the opposite.

[Trippy]

I don't see any confusion as to what he's saying

1) Players will be able to have ISK removed from their Virtual Bank Accounts and recieve another month of game time from CCP.

2) The trading of Game Time Cards for ISK is being removed.

3) The selling of Game Time Cards for real world cash will continue.

You can't have #3 without having GTCs being traded for ISK.

[slog]

I don't see any confusion as to what he's saying

1) Players will be able to have ISK removed from their Virtual Bank Accounts and recieve another month of game time from CCP.

2) The trading of Game Time Cards for ISK is being removed.

3) The selling of Game Time Cards for real world cash will continue.

You can't have #3 without having GTCs being traded for ISK.

Why not?

[Trippy]

I don't see any confusion as to what he's saying

1) Players will be able to have ISK removed from their Virtual Bank Accounts and recieve another month of game time from CCP.

2) The trading of Game Time Cards for ISK is being removed.

3) The selling of Game Time Cards for real world cash will continue.

You can't have #3 without having GTCs being traded for ISK.

Why not?

Because then you don't have "surplus" GTCs to sell for cash. I.e. the reason why people are selling GTCs for cash is because people are trading them for ISKs. Once you've paid for your playtime far enough in advance you'll want to convert those "surplus" GTCs into cash, which is what people are doing. If nobody is trading you GTCs for your extra ISK then you won't have any GTCs to sell.

Of course CCP's plan is not going to eliminate #2, it'll just move it back underground rather than being something CCP officially sanctions.

[slog]

I don't see any confusion as to what he's saying

1) Players will be able to have ISK removed from their Virtual Bank Accounts and recieve another month of game time from CCP.

2) The trading of Game Time Cards for ISK is being removed.

3) The selling of Game Time Cards for real world cash will continue.

You can't have #3 without having GTCs being traded for ISK.

Why not?

Because then you don't have "surplus" GTCs to sell for cash. I.e. the reason why people are selling GTCs for cash is because people are trading them for ISKs. Once you've paid for your playtime far enough in advance you'll want to convert those "surplus" GTCs into cash, which is what people are doing. If nobody is trading you GTCs for your extra ISK then you won't have any GTCs to sell.

Of course CCP's plan is not going to eliminate #2, it'll just move it back underground rather than being something CCP officially sanctions.

So you are saying CCP can in fact do it, but it will just drive RMT underground. 

[Kail]

1) Players will be able to have ISK removed from their Virtual Bank Accounts and recieve another month of game time from CCP.

2) The trading of Game Time Cards for ISK is being removed.

3) The selling of Game Time Cards for real world cash will continue.

No where does he say that CCP is gong to sell ISK.  This doesn't look to be Company endorsed RMT.  I'd say it's the opposite.

Then I'd say it still looks like really screwy business.  Not only is CCP losing the income from their GTCs being bought and then traded for ISK, but they're also losing the potential income of trading real money for their imaginary monopoly money.  What are they gaining, aside from the possiblilty of legal issues with virtual property?

[ajax34i]

Maybe they don't see the ISK-for-$$ trades happening in big enough volumes to matter, and they figure if they attract extra players by making the monthly fee $0 (but time spent in-game grinding for ISK - required) their playerbase increases.

[Furiously]

Or maybe - they are still spending a ton of time dealing with scammers.

[sinij]

This is sad example of a beginning of circling the drain.

CCP's ISK<->GTC by player base was one of the most elegant solutions to gold farmers out there, seeing it destroyed in the name of extra few bucks (short term) is a sad event.

Effects of this change will be almost immediate - gold farmers will set up a shop and without competition from players (in form of ISK<>GTC trade) it will be direct sales of ISK for $$$ without any of it ever reaching CCP.

[Ragnoros]

Dumb Question, how much ISK does a GTC cost?

[MahrinSkel]

It floats, moving up and down mostly in correlation with how many capital ships are getting killed.  Typical 150M for a 30-day code, which works out to about 10M isk = $1.  I've seen it as high as 280M for the 30-day code (just before the current war), and as low as 110M (shortly after the F-T honeypot).

--Dave

[Kamen]

If you have the isk, 90 day TC's are the way to go @ 350-400 mil each.