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WayAbvPar
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on: August 19, 2004, 10:47:40 AM

OK, here's the deal. I am in the market for a new car. I would rather not spend more than $15-$20k (to keep the monthly payments reasonable). I value reliability above all else, followed by comfort, fuel economy, and performance (I am too old to go rally racing).

I have been looking at Hyundai Elantras (I prefer the GT). They are in the right price range, and have gotten very nice reviews the past couple of years (they used to be shitty, but no more, which surprised me). Other possibilities include the Toyota Corolla, the Nissan Altima, and (if I feel like coughing up a few extra bucks) the Honda Civic Hybrid (There is like a 6 month waiting list for Toyota Priuses here in tree-hugging Seattle, so those are out).

Anyone have any experience with cars in this class? Any things to avoid? I have a subscription to the Consumer Reports website, so I can access a lot of data- just need to know where to start looking.

Over the years I have developed a positive allergy to American cars (every one I have owned has been a piece of shit), and I am not overly impressed with the newer Volkswagen track record either- they seem to spend A LOT of time in the shop.

When speaking of the MMOG industry, the glass may be half full, but it's full of urine. HaemishM

Always wear clean underwear because you never know when a Tory Government is going to fuck you.- Ironwood

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Dark Vengeance
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Reply #1 on: August 19, 2004, 10:58:22 AM

My buddy works at DCX, so I'm suggesting Dodge/Chrysler product out of sheer loyalty to him. The Chrysler 300M is a great car, IMO, but might not be great on gas or price. If you're looking at the 2005's when they come out, I don't think you'd get in there...but you might get a decent payment on a 2004.

Myself, I'm partial to having at least 6 cylinders. The 4's just don't have enough zip for my tastes....I like to really feel a passing gear, because in Detroit traffic, when you want to make a move sometimes you really need that extra power. I'm currently driving a 98 Mercury Sable, but I'm not so sure I'd suggest the last few years of Sables....IMO they took a step backward lately.

Ford's Focus is pretty ugly IMO, but would certainly come inside your price range, and should be decent on reliability and gas mileage. I think they are primarily 4-cylinder cars, and I really prefer a 6.

Can't suggest any foreign cars for under $20k....I'm not a big fan of Japanese cars at all (doing B2B sales in this town and driving a Japanese car is like wearing a sign that says "don't buy from me", so I'm a bit biased).

Bring the noise.
Cheers...............
UD_Delt
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Reply #2 on: August 19, 2004, 11:07:13 AM

I can comment on a few vehicles in this price range:

My car is a 2000 Dodge Intrepid. I bought it this year off lease w/ 28,000 miles on it and got it for $10k even after taxes, title, etc... It's a piece of shit and if I would have done my homework I probably would have never bought it. But at least it's a cheap piece of shit and it should still last me another 4-5 years (keeping my fingers crossed) which isn't a horrible deal. It also has a huge interior which I really like but that's about the only saving grace for the thing.

My wife has a 2003 VW Jetta she got new a bit over a year ago. It's a nice car and has been very reliable. It's incredibly good on gas. Only issue is that it's the gay car of choice and the city I live in has a large gay population. I personally don't really care since I'm married and all but other people have made comments whenever I drive the wife's car.

A friend of mine who is a car enthusiast has a VW Gulf he bought new 2 years ago and he's very happy with it. He has had to take it in a few times but only because he made a a number of after market modifications. The only parts that have had problems are the non-factory parts, mainly suspension. I personally never understood his reasoning behind buying a 14k car and putting another 6k into it but I'm not much of a car person....

The same friend before the VW had a Nissan Altima and he swore by that car but the new one's with the options he wanted were out of his price range. Honestly unless you plan on getting one completely bare they are probably out of your price range as well unless you buy off lease.


To be honest with you I would look at buying a 2004/03 off lease with 10-12k miles on it. You'll be able to look at the next higher class of car in the same price range as what you're looking at new. As long as you pull a carfax report on it to make sure it hasn't had any excessive repairs there should be no noticable difference between a 1 year off lease and a new car (barring year-to-year redesigns).

That would open up looking at the Honda Accord, Toyota Camry, better model Altima, and high end Jetta or low end Pasat.



Edit: Posted before reading Dark's post so it wasn't a premediated shot at Dodge in my intrepid review. Just watch any Dodge/Chrysler vehicle with the V6 2.7L engine. They have a sludge issue which only gives the engine about a 75k mile life span in a lot of cases.
Rasix
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Reply #3 on: August 19, 2004, 11:10:26 AM

I love my Honda Civic.  It cost me about 17k for a 4 door, side airbags, cd player, and power everything.  The sucker gets excellent gas mileage.  It's been very reliable and Civics seem to be as a rule. I haven't had a problem with it at all. Civics also tend to retain their value very well.

I'll probably end up buying this car when the lease is out or I might get a hybrid. I hear they fudge the numbers a bit when determining hybrid gas mileage.  

My wife's family has bought nothing but Hondas for just about ever.  Her dad is the head traffic engineer for Pima county and wishes he could replace his current fleet of county cars with Civics.  He really hates the Dodge Neons and Chevy Cavaliers he has to deal with instead.

Really, it's a great little car. Not a whole lot of zip, but it gets me from point A to B reliably and doesn't suck down a whole lot of petro.

Edit: My sister has an Nissan Altima and seems to be pretty happy with it. It's pretty decked out and seems to be avoiding the maintenance hell our previous Nissans have had.

-Rasix
Dark Vengeance
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Reply #4 on: August 19, 2004, 11:17:37 AM

Quote from: UD_Delt
Edit: Posted before reading Dark's post so it wasn't a premediated shot at Dodge in my intrepid review. Just watch any Dodge/Chrysler vehicle with the V6 2.7L engine. They have a sludge issue which only gives the engine about a 75k mile life span in a lot of cases.


Don't worry about it, outside of a few models, I'm not a huge DCX fan either....note that I drive a Mercury, which is a Ford product.

It's tough to live in Detroit and not take a huge "BUY AMERICAN CARS" stance....so I took the easy route.

Bring the noise.
Cheers..............
Bloodrage
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Reply #5 on: August 19, 2004, 11:24:44 AM

I picked up a 2003 Ford Focus SE in January for 11k. It had 22k miles on it. It is a nice little car with decent acceleration. I enjoy driving it. My wife has (had) a 7 year old Honda Accord and loves(d) it. All she has (had) ever done for the car is (was) change the oil. She got rear-ended on Friday, and the car is totalled. We will be picking up a mini-van as a replacement. The shopping begins this weekend, either a Dodge/Chrysler Grand Caravan, or one of the new Honda or Toyotas.

I looked at Nissans, Hondas, Toyotas, and Chevys when I was car shopping. The Hondas and Toyotas are going to run $3k+ more than the domestic models. I didn't care for the Nissan Sentra; the engine was positively feeble. Chevy was trying hard to move their vehicles when I was shopping.
HaemishM
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Reply #6 on: August 19, 2004, 11:55:11 AM

I would have never thought it, but look at the Pontiac Grand Am's. I bought a 2002 program car with the 6-cylinder engine a year ago when my car flooded. The only complaint I have with it is the road noise is a bit excessive. It gets about 21-22 mph in the city, about 30 mph on the highway and handles very smoothly.

I drove a Ford Focus as a rental when I was shopping for this one and just hated the way it drove.

Murgos
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Reply #7 on: August 19, 2004, 12:17:13 PM

Quote
I value reliability above all else, followed by comfort, fuel economy, and performance (I am too old to go rally racing).

Call around and find out where and when the nearest big city has thier auction.  Tampa for instance has one every month.  Go and bid on a car, you can generally get a 2000 or 2001 detectives (plain unmarked) cruiser for around $1500 - $2000.  Generally they are V8s, clean, well maintainted, large, comfortible, easy to maintain and in excellent condition despite slightly high miles.  Crown Victorias and Cutlass Caprice Classics are semi-luxury cars so you don't even look like someone driving a cheap-ass 20k car.

Then use the other $18,000 on something better than a car.  Invest it, take a couple of months and travel Europe or commit to a higher standard of living, there are better things to spend 20 grand on than a cheap car.

"You have all recieved youre last warning. I am in the process of currently tracking all of youre ips and pinging your home adressess. you should not have commencemed a war with me" - Aaron Rayburn
Bloodrage
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Reply #8 on: August 19, 2004, 12:20:32 PM

I neglected to mention that my previous car was a 1991 Ford Escort. My parents purchased it in '93 and I got it as a college car. I drove it for 10 years, and the only problems I had were a faulty ignition sensor ('97) and the alternator ('03). It is the reason I went with another Ford.
schild
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Reply #9 on: August 19, 2004, 12:21:13 PM

Quote from: Murgos
Quote
I value reliability above all else, followed by comfort, fuel economy, and performance (I am too old to go rally racing).


Then use the other $18,000 on something better than a car.  Invest it, take a couple of months and travel Europe or commit to a higher standard of living, there are better things to spend 20 grand on than a cheap car.


Murgos is right. If you aren't gonna spend $25k+ on a car, buy something cheap with a decent track record and spend the bulk on something else.

Until you break the glass ceiling of low end cars, you're pretty much shopping for shit.
Daeven
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Reply #10 on: August 19, 2004, 12:50:46 PM

The Mazda 3 is a smidge above your price range, but a damn fun car with decent mileage.

"There is a technical term for someone who confuses the opinions of a character in a book with those of the author. That term is idiot." -SMStirling

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Daeven
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Reply #11 on: August 19, 2004, 12:54:59 PM

Quote from: Dark Vengeance
Myself, I'm partial to having at least 6 cylinders. The 4's just don't have enough zip for my tastes....I like to really feel a passing gear, because in Detroit traffic, when you want to make a move sometimes you really need that extra power..


Bah! Cylinders are for pussies. But then, I drive on of these.

"There is a technical term for someone who confuses the opinions of a character in a book with those of the author. That term is idiot." -SMStirling

It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion
slog
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Reply #12 on: August 19, 2004, 01:04:32 PM

My wife is an office manager of a Subaru dealership and has been in the business for over 20 years.  In that price range, you are better off buying a late model used car rather than a new car.  The list below is based on reliabliity:

Good Used Brands
Subaru
Toyota
Honda

Average Used Brands

Ford
Mazda
Nissan


Avoid

Volkswagon
Hyunda
SATURN (at all costs, apparantly these things are the biggest pieces of shit )
Dodge
Jeep


Side note: the guy who said he was going to buy the car after he leased it:  How does it feel to have an 8 year car loan? (3 for the lease, 5 for the used car loan)

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Abagadro
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Reply #13 on: August 19, 2004, 01:04:53 PM

My last three cards have been:  Nissan Altima, Mazda 626 (now the "6"), Nissan Altima.

First two were leases that I had from new until 3 years old. Not a single problem with either one.  Haven't had a problem with my current Altima which is closing in on 3 years. The Altima has one of the bigger engines for its class (even the 4 banger) and has lots of pep.

My current Altima is the last model (2001) before the redesign, so I can't speak to that one except to say that my friend bought a new Audi A4 and then took it back to get on of the current Altima and likes it a lot more.

I'm a big Nissan fan although if you get the 6 cylinder Altima, you are probably over 20k.

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

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schild
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Reply #14 on: August 19, 2004, 01:12:09 PM

Quote from: Dark Vengeance
Myself, I'm partial to having at least 6 cylinders. The 4's just don't have enough zip for my tastes....I like to really feel a passing gear, because in Detroit traffic, when you want to make a move sometimes you really need that extra power..


I like my RSX Type-S. 4 Cylinders is more than enough for it. Daeven, yea, I wanted the RX8 but it wasn't out when I bought my car.
Krakrok
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Reply #15 on: August 19, 2004, 04:17:34 PM

Where the fuck are the flying cars they promised us?
schild
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Reply #16 on: August 19, 2004, 04:18:27 PM

Quote from: Krakrok
Where the fuck are the flying cars they promised us?


I made that same comment to one of my friends last week. I'm also waiting for the teflon coated apartments (so the housewives can clean with a hose)!
SurfD
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Reply #17 on: August 19, 2004, 04:26:47 PM

Quote from: schild
....... I'm also waiting for the teflon coated apartments .......


Now that would have some interesting implimentations.  Just imagine how much fun it would be watching your cat attempt to run around on a tefflon coated floor.  Would make rearanging the furniture soo much easier (just jump on the couch and it SOARS around the room, bumping off everything).  And exactly how would you get shit to stick to the walls when you actually wanted it to?

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schild
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Reply #18 on: August 19, 2004, 04:28:20 PM

Quote from: SurfD
And exactly how would you get shit to stick to the walls when you actually wanted it to?


Overcooked scrambled egg. Without using any oil/butter/whatever. That shit will stick to anything. Including teflon.
Rodent
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Reply #19 on: August 19, 2004, 04:36:43 PM

I've had good experiences with SAAB, Alpha Romeo and BMW. Considering your price range I would say a SAAB 93.

Wiiiiii!
Comstar
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Reply #20 on: August 19, 2004, 08:57:26 PM

I just bought a Suzuki Ignis Sports. TINY boot, but I don't need it. Mabye smaller than what you want, but it's got everything else and sports stuff (ABS, bigger engine, sprotish tires, seats, wheel and suspension). Dunno if they sell it in the US, or if it's under a different name.

Defending the Galaxy, from the Scum of the Universe, with nothing but a flashlight and a tshirt. We need tanks Boo, lots of tanks!
Alkiera
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Reply #21 on: August 19, 2004, 09:10:26 PM

I currently work for a rental car company.  I have to agree with the 'buy a good used car' thing.  We have a lot of Focuses, which according to the dealer tags when they come in MSRP at $17k.  And the cars, while not bad, and they are fuel efficient, just aren't exceptional, considering you're paying almost twenty thousand dollars for one.

Currently own a 1989 Honda Civic Si which, while somewhat rusty, still runs like a top, and a 1991 Ford Tempo, which still runs barely; it has electrical issues in that several interior lights are non functional, and the power windows and locks are dying.

Even if you end up have to make semi-major repairs to a used car after awhile, $4-500 every 4-6 months (about what it was on both cars for use for awhile, we seem to have managed to replace all the stuff that was going to die for now, tho.) it's still alot less than a car payment, and you don't have to carry the high-coverage insurance demanded by loan companies, so you save there, too.

--
Alkiera

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Nebu
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Reply #22 on: August 19, 2004, 09:34:35 PM

I've had great luck with VW, Honda, and Nissan.  I recommend them highly. I put 140k miles on a 1991 civic si, 160k on a 1992 Nissan Sentra with almost no problems beyond routine maintenence.  

I also have a friend with a Hyundi Elantra and he swears it's the best bang_for_your_buck car made.  Drive a few and see what screams "Take me home now, damnit!".  I bought a 2004 VW GTI this June for just that reason... Oh, the 0% financing didn't hurt.

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Comstar
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Reply #23 on: August 20, 2004, 12:11:49 AM

Sort of off topic, but the local Hyandui dealer was the WORST dealer I talked to. Refused to show me a small car, wanted me to buy a car I didn't want and didn't ask for that DAY, and did everything I've read bad dealers do to close the deal. Ugh. I didn't give Hyandui's a chance after that. The 2nd worst dealer was the Holden (GM in america) guy who wouldn't tell me what features a car had, just it was "top of the line model".  Then I had a Mitsubishi dealer play a joke on me with a car alarm which must have been hilarious to him.

I went off the Toyato Echo because they decided to remove the passanger side airbag for some stupid reason. *I* LIKE having a safer car.

Best dealers I talked to were Ford ones, and I almost bought a Fiesta Zetec (the Focus impressed me to, though it was bigger than I wanted).

Defending the Galaxy, from the Scum of the Universe, with nothing but a flashlight and a tshirt. We need tanks Boo, lots of tanks!
Lanei
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Reply #24 on: August 20, 2004, 08:01:35 AM

My last two cars have been Toyotas.  Got the 1991 Camry from my parents as a college car in 1996, and traded it in on a 2002 Camry in late 2001.  My Camry, new, was about $19,500 after my trade.

Zero defects.

One warranty replacement. (the windshield washer bottle was warranty replaced with a newer version that took out an interior partition and increaced the capacity)

I have about 50,000 miles on it now, and I'm planning on driving it for at least another 8 years.
Kenrick
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Reply #25 on: August 20, 2004, 09:18:25 AM

I'm not on the market to buy, but if I were I'd be interested in the new Mazda 3.  I like the hatchback version.



Civics=love also.  I miss mine.
personman
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Reply #26 on: August 20, 2004, 11:18:58 AM

I recently upgraded my turbo diesel Jetta to the TDI Passat.  The TDI Jetta peaked at about 54 miles to the gallon but usually averaged 48.  My Passat peaks around 46, with 40 being much more the norm (because I tend to average 75mph over a 50 mile commute, with the AC at full arctic gale setting)

The Passat is a punchy little car that handles great.  Hard to believe it's only 135 horse.  My wife's Accord has 225hp and the difference in acceleration between the two vehicles is fairly close.

I like the idea of a car that uses diesel and has a simpler engine than the hybrids.  Diesel tends to be more reasonably priced and is easy to come by.  The new low-sulfur diesel should be on the streets in the US in the next few months.
Ralence
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Reply #27 on: August 22, 2004, 01:46:03 PM

Quote from: HaemishM
I would have never thought it, but look at the Pontiac Grand Am's. I bought a 2002 program car with the 6-cylinder engine a year ago when my car flooded.


  I've actually been in the market for a new car for about 3 years now.  I bought a new 1994 Grand Am when the new body style had just come out, paid it off in 3 years, and the god damned thing will not die.  It's a V-6 with 160k miles on it, and I've yet to replace anything at all besides oil, brakes, tires, and the fanbelt once.  I always think it's going to die at any minute, but that paranoia started 3 years ago, and there's still not a thing wrong with the car.

  Any car I get 10 years out of is a goldmine, especially since I'm not famous for taking great care of them mechanically.  I honestly think I can make 200k+ on this car before it completely shits the bed.  

  If not for my experience with this car, there's no way I would have recommended any US automakers.

P.S. I also live in New England, so even with the winters I've had 0 problems.
WayAbvPar
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Reply #28 on: August 23, 2004, 09:47:23 AM

Quote
I always think it's going to die at any minute, but that paranoia started 3 years ago


Welcome to my world. I totalled my Cavalier Z24 3 years ago (right after I dumped almost 2 grand into the fucking thing, since it was a piece of shit that fell apart soon after I bought it), and so wound up driving a 1987 626 my mom had sitting around. The plan was to drive it until I bought a new car. I dumped $1100 into it to get the brakes to actually stop the car, tune it up, etc, and I was off.

Fast forward 3 years. Still driving the 626, afraid to go anywhere more than 10 miles away for fear of the car self-destructing ala the Bluesmobile in Daley Plaza. I was always sure it would die, but it kept on trucking...almost 185k miles on it now.

However, it is no longer my concern- bought my first (and probably last) brand new car yesterday (the aforementioned Hyundai Elantra GT- Tidal Wave blue). Wow- having a stereo that works, windows that roll all the way up, brakes that don't squeak, and air conditioning...quite a nice change of pace. Between the payments and my increased insurance, however, I may need to sell a kidney.

When speaking of the MMOG industry, the glass may be half full, but it's full of urine. HaemishM

Always wear clean underwear because you never know when a Tory Government is going to fuck you.- Ironwood

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Nebu
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Reply #29 on: August 23, 2004, 12:02:38 PM

Quote from: Kenrick
I'm not on the market to buy, but if I were I'd be interested in the new Mazda 3.  I like the hatchback version.


Have to admit that the Mazda was a close second to the VW GTI that I just bought (Ford Focus SvT came in 3rd).  I also test drove the Honda Civic SI hatchback (sport model) three different times.  While a nice car. I have to say that for Bang_for_the_buck I give the Mazda 3 the nod.  

Best advice I can give is to

1) Test drive every car you consider a contender.  Make sure you can get the bells/whistles you want... don't be afraid to have them do a search for the EXACT options package you want.  For $20k, you deserve to get it your way.

2) Don't buy anything the day you test drive it. (this, btw gives you some bargaining leverage... also buy on a Tuesday or Wednesday if possible, the salesman will want some business on the dead days)

Hope that helps.

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Morfiend
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Reply #30 on: August 23, 2004, 05:39:15 PM

Three of my best friends have Jettas. And they all love them. Two of them are Jetta Wagons, one is a Twin Turbo, has nice pickup.

Im not sure what the price on a Jetta these days is, but they are nice, zippy little cars.

I drive this.
Jimbo
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Reply #31 on: August 25, 2004, 12:30:03 AM

I've had great results with Jeep, Ford and VW.

My first truck was a 1974 Ford F250 with a big ol' 351 with a three-on-the-tree, 2 wheel drive, orange with a white stripe on the side, and beer can ejection window in the back :)  That fucker is still running!

My mother had a VW Jetta that was sweet, never had any problems with it, ran fast, was peppy and got decent gas milage.

When I graduated from High School, the first Jeep I bought was a 1980 CJ-5.  It was a blast, but sold it when I joined the Air Force.  I then bought a 1985 CJ-7.  That Jeep went from Panama, to the Netherlands/Germany, then on to New Mexico, and the back home to Indiana.  I sold it last summer and bought my new Jeep.  It is a 2000 Jeep Wrangler TJ--it has the soft top, inline 6, 5 speed (NV3500 which is a heavy-duty light truck trany), Dana 44 read-end, and rocks!  Having a jeep that can flat out haul (have had it up to 90 mph no problem) and still able to crank it up on the weekened on some trails is great.

One thing to think about, I'm an EMT-A/Fire Fighter and ER nurse.  I have seen a ton of people who have been fucked up in smaller cars.  I don't see as many in larger cars.  With a family, bigger is better for safety.
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