Bethesda gets Fallout

[Yegolev]

If they made a game that does the stuff I like about UO, but with shiny 3d graphics and combat that wasn't crappy RPG-style combat, I'd be all over that shit in a heartbeat.  Ultima what?

Just saying.

I'm saving an Ultima Worlds Online Tophat avatar for just the perfect moment, however it's a bit soon to replace Pyramid Head, I think.

[Righ]

So the only major MMO that I recall playing in isometric view is probably UO.

Lineage was quite popular in pictophonetic land.

[Ironwood]

That's not fair.

If I have gained respect for a genre and a brand and a series, I am not unreasonable to expect 'more of the same' from the next installment.

Just saying.

I guess the CEO of EA, of all people, has decided that more of the same is a bad thing now.  From his complaints about games being too boring and complicated I can only assume he has decided to join the cult of Wii.

Yeah, he would appear to be a cunt.

[Stephen Zepp]

That's not fair.

If I have gained respect for a genre and a brand and a series, I am not unreasonable to expect 'more of the same' from the next installment.

Just saying.

I guess the CEO of EA, of all people, has decided that more of the same is a bad thing now.  From his complaints about games being too boring and complicated I can only assume he has decided to join the cult of Wii.

Yeah, he would appear to be a cunt.

We're discussing this internally at GG, and it was brought up that this is a new CEO, and not the one that said "indies don't have a freaking chance" 2 years ago.

[WindupAtheist]

bla bla

So basically in your little world, there are only two game perspectives:  First person, and isometric.  The standard above-and-behind MMO camera is isometric, a direct top-down view is isometric, and a side-scroller is probably isometric too, right?

What a crock of shit.

Again, am I supposed to be over here going "Wow, Murgos is totally right once you let him subjectively redefine words!"

[UnSub]

Yes, isometric viewpoints used to sell games. But that was when we were all marvelling over the shift from 2D sprites to something resembling 3D. And then games started to have better representations of 3D through first person / third person view points and moving cameras and the like. In modern gaming, it looks cheap and clumsy for the most part for something to come out with a purely fixed isometric viewpoint.

I'd disagree. Sacred and Divine Divinity were great games. Just because the cool thing to do is 1st or 3rd person 3d doesn't mean isometric is dead. It's just not trendy. Cthulhu save us from trendy motherfuckers, anyway. They brought us RTS and tainted Brian Reynold's soul.

I'm not saying that good games can't be in isometric - I've played some very good ones. But to over-generalise, players like to have more control over the camera, or have gotten used to having more control over the camera angle. Isometric games tend to be a bit of a throwback to older gaming styles.

At the time I wrote the original comment I was thinking about how a lot of games that would have been fixed camera isometric POV at one point now allow players to swing 360 degrees around the map and to zoom in and out. Fallout, as a series, should really keep up to some extent with more recent gaming conventions than pure isometric viewpoints and fixed turn-based combat.

[UnSub]

That's not fair.

If I have gained respect for a genre and a brand and a series, I am not unreasonable to expect 'more of the same' from the next installment.

Just saying.

I know what you are saying, but no changes in a gaming IP will lead to franchise death as quickly as too much change.

[Ironwood]

Yes, I understand that.  You've kinda hit the nail on the head regarding my point :  We suspect that the next installment is veering quickly into 'Too Much Change'.  If you look at the Fallout 3 Demo that got leaked, that seems to me to be 'Just enough exciting technology change, but by God it plays on the fond memories.'

[UnSub]

Yes, I understand that.  You've kinda hit the nail on the head regarding my point :  We suspect that the next installment is veering quickly into 'Too Much Change'.  If you look at the Fallout 3 Demo that got leaked, that seems to me to be 'Just enough exciting technology change, but by God it plays on the fond memories.'

That's no problem - I'm keeping an open mind about Fallout 3. I'm just having issues with some posters - not necessarily here, but elsewhere - who have thrown a major crying fit over Fallout maybe being vaguely FPS or not having turn-based combat. (Caveat: I never really got into Fallout 1 or 2 - bought them, played them a bit, stopped playing them, forgot where I was, uninstalled. Currently playing STALKER, which may influence my attitude towards post-apoc games in FPS).

[Ironwood]

To which I'm sure the fanbois would cry :  Then make a game with that tech, but don't use the Fallout IP.

I remain neutral on the matter, but I suspect I'm going to be presented with a Turkey come release time.

[Megrim]

You mean they are going to put things in it's butt? Or, your butt? What the hell...

[Ironwood]

What ?

[Azazel]

Also, big minuses to Max Payne for the blood-trail-with-crying-baby level.  Almost made me hate the game completely, but thankfully its only competition at the time was Munch's Oddysee and Azurik.

Yeah, yeah, the quote is from 12 pages ago, but still - I really liked the Max Paynes, very disappointed there wasn't a third one. I'm actually playing through it again very casually now, and yes, tonight I got up to the first baby-crying level of suckitude. Tomorrow I'll gamefaq my way through it the fastest way possible and get back to the fun shootingness.

I agree though that Max Payne isn't what fallout should be. Make it a Fallout-spinoff, sure. Like that PS2 game. But not Fallout 3.

[Megrim]

What ?

Turkeys man! They get stuffed!

[Murgos]

Again, am I supposed to be over here going "Wow, Murgos is totally right once you let him subjectively redefine words!"

Isometric means that the view angle is at a point where the angles between the x,y and z axis are 120 degrees.  Which was pretty much only done in Q-Bert.  Every other game referred to as isometric wasn't but isometric is what they are referred to as.  You have spent this ENTIRE thread referring to things as isometric that aren't.

Now you are saying there is fluid definition of isometric that's arbitrarily defined by you as you understand it?  Fuck that.  Isometric long ago was blurred to mean third person as regards to video games.

edit:  Let's put it in absolute terms, what angles of X,Y, and Z are allowed to be referred to as isometric?  C'mon smart boy, tell me why X=116 degrees (Zelda)  is ok to be referred to as isometric but not X=100 or X= 94?

[Ironwood]

Yeah !

And then work it out where x is a factor of the inverse Cosine !!!

YEAH, FUCKING TAKE IT ALL !!!!

[schild]

Q-bert....and.....and......

Viewpoint.

[Yegolev]

I fucking hated Q-Bert.

[schild]

I have Viewpoint in MVS form, it's so fucking hard.

[WindupAtheist]

yadda yadda

Seriously, nobody but you in the entire fucking universe would call WoW an isometric game.  You sounded like an utter dumbfuck when you said it.  Just give up.

[UnSub]

edit:  Let's put it in absolute terms, what angles of X,Y, and Z are allowed to be referred to as isometric?  C'mon smart boy, tell me why X=116 degrees (Zelda)  is ok to be referred to as isometric but not X=100 or X= 94?

How about because that is what isometric means?

Ripped straight out of wiki, here is a list of some isometric games:

Notable examples of "isometric" computer and video games
 
Knight Lore was among the first games to use 3/4 perspective.
SimCity 2000 is one of many games that use 3/4 perspective.Q*bert (1982) : An arcade hit. Truly isometric.
Zaxxon (1982) : Early arcade space flight fight. Truly isometric.
Ant Attack (1983) : Home computer game.
Congo Bongo (1983) : Arcade game.
Knight Lore (1984) : Action-adventure computer game.
Marble Madness (1984) : Arcade game.
Spindizzy (1986) : Exploration-based puzzle and maze game for 8-bit computers.
Amaurote (1987) : 8-bit arcade game using 3/4 perspective.
Head over Heels (1987) : Popular action-adventure game from the end of the 8-bit computer era.
La Abadía del Crimen (The Abbey of Crime) (1988).
Populous (1989) : God simulator.
Solstice: The Quest for the Staff of Demnos (1990) : Puzzle game.
Snake Rattle 'n' Roll (1990) : An action/platformer game.
Cadaver (1990) : Adventure/role-playing game.
Landstalker (1992) : Platformer/role-playing game.
SimCity 2000 (1993) : City building simulation game.
Little Big Adventure (1994) : an action-adventure game
Crusader: No Remorse (1995) : Computer action game.
Transport Tycoon Deluxe (1995) : Transport company simulator/strategy game.
Civilization II (1996) : Turn-based strategy game.
Super Mario RPG (1996) : A role-playing game.
Age of Empires (1997) : History-based RTS game.
Fallout (1997) : A post nuclear sci-fi role playing game by Interplay. Technically trimetric.
Final Fantasy Tactics (1997) : A strategic role-playing game.
Ultima Online (1997) : Massively multiplayer online fantasy combat game.
Commandos: Behind Enemy Lines (1998) : A stealth-oriented real-time tactics game.
Baldur's Gate (1998) : Computer role-playing game in the Forgotten Realms D&D campaign setting.
StarCraft (1998) : Science-fiction real-time strategy game.
Habbo Hotel (2000) : A massively multiplayer online game run by Sulake Corporation.
The Sims (2000) : A simulation of people controlled by the player.
Virtual Magic Kingdom (2005) : A massively multiplayer online game run by The Walt Disney Company.

Isometric fixes the camera to a point at about 120 degrees on the x, y and z axis. Some games aren't perfectly isometric in fixed viewpoint (such as Fallout) and are actually trimetric, but hey, it's close enough to call it so.

However, getting things like isometric and trimetric confused is a long way from calling a floating third person viewpoint, or a game with a free floating camera, isometric.

[schild]

Seriously, VIEWPOINT.



Also, I disagree with most of that list.

[Ironwood]

I pressed start and it won't let me join.  Do I have to put money in ?

[Riggswolfe]

That's no problem - I'm keeping an open mind about Fallout 3. I'm just having issues with some posters - not necessarily here, but elsewhere - who have thrown a major crying fit over Fallout maybe being vaguely FPS or not having turn-based combat. (Caveat: I never really got into Fallout 1 or 2 - bought them, played them a bit, stopped playing them, forgot where I was, uninstalled. Currently playing STALKER, which may influence my attitude towards post-apoc games in FPS).

I'm not going to throw a fit but I will need to be won over by it. I enjoyed the tactical style of Fallout combat with aimed shots, etc. I like realtime stuff too but sometimes it is nice to have a series that let's me think out my battles. And really, if you didn't finish the first two why do you care about the 3rd?

As for the isometric argument, for me isometric means the view is at an angle somewhere between 90 degrees straight up and flat with the ground. So yeah, 120ish is about right. That and a fixed camera.

[Yegolev]

As someone that has taken more than a few math classes, I'm going to have to go with the 120-degree definition, since that's what it means in mathematics.  There should be some other term for games with a grid that merely approximates an isometric grid... but there isn't so we're stuck with isometric.

[Righ]

Also, I disagree with most of that list.

Well, of course you do. However, stuff like Viewpoint is weak because its just a scroller that is using a isometric projection (and as Sandy White says about Zaxxon, that worked as well with an orthogonal projection) . Ant Attack and Knight Lore use an isometric grid that you can move over in all axes giving a true 3D feeling to the viewer.

Sim City 2000 was much much later than 1982. Sim City wasn't even released until 1989. :)

[Sky]

Line break ftl.

[UnSub]

And really, if you didn't finish the first two why do you care about the 3rd?

It could be interesting. Post-apoc is a bit of an underused setting.

But I don't have time to play long RPGs anymore, so I'm just keeping an eye on Fallout 3. And occasionally stir the pot when I read someone go "It's not really Fallout because BLAH BLAH BLAH".

[Riggswolfe]

As someone that has taken more than a few math classes, I'm going to have to go with the 120-degree definition, since that's what it means in mathematics.  There should be some other term for games with a grid that merely approximates an isometric grid... but there isn't so we're stuck with isometric.

Well, as someone with a Comp Sci degree I've taken my share of math classes as well. (though in honesty, I've forgotten a ton of it. I've had zero use for it in the real world so far other than a few drunken physics discussions with a friend.) While I understand the mathematical description of isometric I am not picky about how it's used in games. It's sort of a "I know it when I see it" type of thing which like I said, really boils down to an angled viewscreen and a fixed camera.

[sinij]

I pressed start and it won't let me join.  Do I have to put money in ?

Whatever you do, DO NOT PRESS CONTINUE BUTTON or we just might find out where rose goes.

[Murgos]

Fine, I expanded the definition of Isometric further than other people, on this board, were willing to accept.  Silly me, knowing what isometric is and knowing that NO ONE was using it correctly I picked up how it has been used for years and went with that.

So, what?  WUA's point that 3rd person perspective games where the ratio of the angles is mostly arbitrary but larger than some unspecified value is still belayed by the millions and millions of people playing games with 3rd person perspectives with mostly arbitrary angles in some unspecified ratio.

in, short, I expanded the definition of a word a little further than was supportable and WUA is still not capable of believing anything other than his own press no matter what evidence is stuck in his face.

[WindupAtheist]

So, what?  WUA's point that 3rd person perspective games where the ratio of the angles is mostly arbitrary but larger than some unspecified value is still belayed by the millions and millions of people playing games with 3rd person perspectives with mostly arbitrary angles in some unspecified ratio.

Um, yeah, you sure taught me some unspecified lesson.

 

[Samprimary]

So is WUA theatre going to take an intermission soon because I would like to hear more about fallout.

[NiX]

I hope so, I'd also like to find out more about Fallout. Though I must say I'm quite impressed with how well they've all argued something so trivial.

[CmdrSlack]

Isn't that pretty much the M.O. of every thread here if not on the entire intartubes?