Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
July 04, 2025, 01:35:16 PM

Login with username, password and session length

Search:     Advanced search
we're back, baby
*
Home Help Search Login Register
f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  The Gaming Graveyard  |  World of Warcraft  |  Topic: Time to roll out your rogue again? 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Pages: [1] 2 3 Go Down Print
Author Topic: Time to roll out your rogue again?  (Read 23726 times)
SurfD
Terracotta Army
Posts: 4039


on: April 03, 2007, 01:54:16 PM

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=89378961&postId=893509173&sid=1

Quote
Originally Posted by Tigole
Lately, I’ve been seeing a lot of posts about the same subjects – subjects that have been addressed in an upcoming patch – so I wanted to let you guys know where things stood.

The Rogue Situation

We’ve done a tuning pass of many of our dungeons/bosses/encounters to ensure that nothing overly punishing occurs to “melee DPS’ that would lead people to favor ranged DPS over Rogues/DPS Warriors etc.

Also, we’ve changed the NPC cleave mechanic so that it’s now a frontal cone ability rather than a 360 degree chain attack. Sweeping Strikes has been removed from all Burning Crusade NPC’s.
We’re also reducing the Glancing Blow damage penalty for creatures 1-3 levels higher than the player. This will have a significant effect on melee DPS as it relates to endgame melee dps. More details on this at a later time.

End Game Itemization

As we’ve stated before, we made a lot of improvements to endgame gear progression. To put it in perspective, take a look at this Warrior Tanking Breastplate from before and after.

Destroyer Chestguard – Currently
+24 Strength
+22 Agility
+39 Stamina
Blue Socket
Yellow Socket
Red Socket
Socket Bonus +6 Stamina
Equip: Increases Defense Rating by 23
Equip: Increases your dodge rating by 16
Equip: Improves hit rating by 18

Destroyer Chestguard – Patch 2.1.0
+21 Strength
+22 Agility
+51 Stamina
Blue Socket
Yellow Socket
Red Socket
Socket Bonus +6 Stamina
Equip: Increases Defense Rating by 23
Equip: Increases your dodge rating by 20
Equip: Improved hit rating by 20


”Trash” Concerns

Equally interesting yet non-epic-dropping non-bosses (or “Trash” as he community likes to call it) has been of concern lately on these forums. In all of our 25 person raid zones we’ve made a number of bug fixes and tuning adjustments. For example, the trash should be significantly easier to clear in most cases – and take less time. Also, we’ve lengthened the time between respawn on a lot of the trash. Yes, trash will respawn in some cases. It’s a pacing mechanic and one that works well when tuned correctly. For example, the trash before the Prophet Skeram or the trash before Attumen the Huntsmen or the Maiden of Virtue works well. You get a couple of tries on the boss, and if you fail, you spend a short time re-clearing. Yes, there are cases of the trash respawning too fast or the trash being too difficult or too lengthy. Those are the cases we hope to fix. We’ve also fixed some bugs that were allowing the trash to respawn after the boss for a certain area was dead.

Consumables

We’re making substantial changes to the way certain consumables work . In particular, Flasks and Elixirs are going to undergo major changes. More information will be available later on. We want Flasks and Elixirs to be a part of the game. We want alchemy to be a cool, needed profession. But we want to remove the tedium and cost from the massive consumable farming that’s going on for endgame raiding. We’ll provide more information soon – but for now, expect big changes to Flasks and Elixirs.

Boss Tuning

We’re looking at the boss tuning from dungeons to heroics to raids. Your feedback is being listened to.

To Summarize

We’re making big improvements to the game. Whenever possible, we hotfix changes to get them to you as quickly as possible. Unfortunately, there are many changes that require a patch and cannot be hotfixed. Many of these changes are coming in Patch 2.1.0. The patch will be on PTR’s in the upcoming weeks. You’ll be able to see them there and try them out for yourselves. You’ll also be able to test Black Temple. We’re also looking into ways of making Hyjal accessible on the PTR as well to get more testing on that zone.

I can assure you that we’re aware of the issues you guys are discussing on the boards and we’re listening closely. We’re also dedicated fans of the game ourselves. We play it every day =D We will affect change as quickly as we can. Patch 2.1.0 will be on the PTR soon enough and you’ll all have the opportunity to comment and make suggestions on the changes.
Quote

Wonder what they plan on doing to Flasks / Elixers?  I mean, while flasks DO cost alot to make, they also last for 2 hours AND through death, so I didnt think they were too broken.

Darwinism is the Gateway Science.
Triforcer
Terracotta Army
Posts: 4663


Reply #1 on: April 03, 2007, 03:32:37 PM

Anytime a dev says "we want a profession to be cool and needed, but..." that is Death for the profession.  If I was an alchemist I would be very worried. 

All life begins with Nu and ends with Nu.  This is the truth!  This is my belief! At least for now...
Merusk
Terracotta Army
Posts: 27449

Badge Whore


Reply #2 on: April 03, 2007, 03:40:04 PM

Yeah, happened to Engineering.  :-(   Maybe I need to take-up smithing next.. so far I've been following the 'nerf it!' timeline well.

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
bhodi
Moderator
Posts: 6817

No lie.


Reply #3 on: April 03, 2007, 03:41:49 PM

Too little too late on the rogue situation too; I canceled months ago ;)

It was clear they didn't know what direction to take them.
Fabricated
Moderator
Posts: 8978

~Living the Dream~


WWW
Reply #4 on: April 03, 2007, 03:46:15 PM

I can't think of what all they can do to flasks and elixers. Nerf their power but nerf boss encounters more? Lower mat costs/make mats more common? Limit the number of flasks/elixers you can have active and nerf the encounters accordingly?

It's also nice to see melee DPS getting slightly less pounded in the ass on some encounters. Rogues/DPS wars are nearly useless in some of the 5 man encounters and some encounters in raids (Maiden of Virtue) will result in melee DPS being forced to sit back and plink with bows/guns.

"The world is populated in the main by people who should not exist." - George Bernard Shaw
Morfiend
Terracotta Army
Posts: 6009

wants a greif tittle


Reply #5 on: April 03, 2007, 04:12:49 PM

Maybe Flasks will work like Pally buffs? One flask for all raid members of that class.
Paelos
Contributor
Posts: 27075

Error 404: Title not found.


Reply #6 on: April 03, 2007, 04:19:18 PM

Major changes to flasks means they are going to make them fucking useless. That's what happens anytime they say major change to an item that does something useful.

Quote
For example, the trash before the Prophet Skeram or the trash before Attumen the Huntsmen or the Maiden of Virtue works well. You get a couple of tries on the boss, and if you fail, you spend a short time re-clearing.

This is pure Tigole idiotic bullshit we're still having to put up with in the raid encounters. Karazhan trash respawns every 2 tries is not OK you dipshit. Maybe 20-25 minutes to get back to square one is fine for people nothing better to do, but it's murder on a normal raid that doesn't want to spend 12 hours a week learning the damn place over respawning crap during boss fights.

Get this through your head. People HATE respawns. Nobody goes "Wow this boss fight is so challenging because if we don't get it right, we get spawned on" or "Wow, that instance is really well designed because of its challenging respawns." Respawns do not make a place challenging, they make it really annoying. Yes, they don't respawn if you kill a boss, and yes if you have the place on farm it's irrelevant, but since when are you designing instances based on the people who can beat the everloving shit out it? Not everyone is thwomping instances with wild abandon early on. You didn't pull that shit in BWL and it was fine. You didn't really even pull that crap in Molten Core with bosses. You don't need to do any kind of respawn timer under an hour. It's causing people to bypass your content because you have your head up your ass.

CPA, CFO, Sports Fan, Game when I have the time
Righ
Terracotta Army
Posts: 6542

Teaching the world Google-fu one broken dream at a time.


Reply #7 on: April 03, 2007, 07:48:30 PM

Anytime a dev says "we want a profession to be cool and needed, but..." that is Death for the profession.  If I was an alchemist I would be very worried. 

You're not kidding. I can almost guarantee you that the simple fix that they are putting in is that elixirs and flasks will be mutually exclusive across the board. They will nerf the encounters, and in order to make the professions still 'fun' and 'challenging' they will quadruple the herb costs of both elixirs and flasks. So if you want them, loads of farming, but they won't be nearly as important once you gear up, so once you're farming an encounter, it'll basically reduce your herb farming workload. Which will rip the market out of the profession after while.

The camera adds a thousand barrels. - Steven Colbert
Teleku
Terracotta Army
Posts: 10516

https://i.imgur.com/mcj5kz7.png


Reply #8 on: April 03, 2007, 08:53:31 PM

Yeah, I'm an alchemist and I'm pretty damn worried right now.  It's the only good proffession in the damn game due to actually being able to make a profit with it (Its the only one with constant demand due to people using up what you sell all the time).  I'm going to be especially pissed if they nerf it because I JUST got Elixir Mastery.  Like, the day before they made this post.  ARGH.

"My great-grandfather did not travel across four thousand miles of the Atlantic Ocean to see this nation overrun by immigrants.  He did it because he killed a man back in Ireland. That's the rumor."
-Stephen Colbert
Calantus
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2389


Reply #9 on: April 03, 2007, 08:58:50 PM

To be honest I wouldn't care if they ripped alchemy a new one. Yes I do have an alchemist, but I've never been a crafter type in WoW, it was always something I had just because it was so useful for me to have it and it will not be missed if it is no longer so. I know it sucks for the alchemists that do actually use it for making money, but if it means less stress for the raiders I think it's the lesser of 2 evils. And at least it will be in good company with all the other tradeskills that happen to be of marginal utility.
Morfiend
Terracotta Army
Posts: 6009

wants a greif tittle


Reply #10 on: April 04, 2007, 10:30:49 AM

You didn't really even pull that crap in Molten Core with bosses.

Core Hounds on a 19 minute respawn? Surgers on a 27 minute respawn? Ugh the trash in MC was horrible when you where first learning the place. BWL was better. I dont mind one encounter with trash like the "depression rooms" or the tunnel in AQ40. But re-killing trash is about my biggest pet peve with raids, and the only part I really really dont like.
Modern Angel
Terracotta Army
Posts: 3553


Reply #11 on: April 04, 2007, 10:43:30 AM

I hope they rape alchemy sideways with a rusty fork. And I'm an alchemist with every recipe besides some flasks. One of the fundamental problems with the game right now (cue LOLRAIDERS after I type this) is that the introductory raids are tuned for massive consumable use. They have to pretend everyone will use them (because alot of people will) so the barrier becomes not skill but farming. And fuck that noise.

Chain chugging super mana pots nets you over 100 mp5 over an average length boss fight. Even easy consumables net you more than three tiers worth of gear. You can't balance encounters for that.
Paelos
Contributor
Posts: 27075

Error 404: Title not found.


Reply #12 on: April 04, 2007, 02:05:20 PM

You didn't really even pull that crap in Molten Core with bosses.

Core Hounds on a 19 minute respawn? Surgers on a 27 minute respawn? Ugh the trash in MC was horrible when you where first learning the place. BWL was better. I dont mind one encounter with trash like the "depression rooms" or the tunnel in AQ40. But re-killing trash is about my biggest pet peve with raids, and the only part I really really dont like.

MC had some odd spawn timers on things like surgers and dogs, but to me they never really shit on my fun learning the place. The main reason was that NONE of them would respawn quickly near bosses. Yeah they could ruin your day, and you would have to go back to the start if you wiped before a boss, but generally you could kill your way around the place and have at least an hour in most places to try bosses. There were never points where you had to worry about respawns jumping up your ass in the middle of a boss pull if you were taking your time. This is not the case at all in Karazhan, as most of the bosses have annoying trash mobs directly near them that are on horrible timers, and in some cases are directly connected to the pull if you don't have a full clear.

That's the main difference, they put those mobs within a stones throw and then give you the middle finger if you aren't moving fast enough. I personally don't want to play beat the clock on boss tries in addition to focusing on strategies.

CPA, CFO, Sports Fan, Game when I have the time
lamaros
Terracotta Army
Posts: 8021


Reply #13 on: April 04, 2007, 10:19:01 PM

None of this stuff has anyting to do with you guys. You aren't raiders.

Or is all the bashing and "lol catass" stuff in the other threads just you guys being funny?

Consumables are a fucking blight on the game at the moment. There are people in my guild who couldn't afford to repair last night.

They could take alchemy out of the game i tell you a lot of people wouldn't care. Alchemy is stupid retarded and only fun for the people who dont raid and just farm all day to make themsleves rich (for what purpose I dont know, there's nothing in this game to spend gold on - except consumables).

Rogues are still one of the best DPS classes in the game and constant QQing might have disguised the fact but if you think otherwise you're still an idiot.

Trash is stupid and Tigole is a fucking idiot if he thinks making it respawn works well as a 'pacing mechanism'. A huge fucking idiot.
Teleku
Terracotta Army
Posts: 10516

https://i.imgur.com/mcj5kz7.png


Reply #14 on: April 04, 2007, 10:36:42 PM

Two things:

1.)  Quite a number of people posting in this thread do in fact raid (or were raiding).  Me included.  This doesnt mean cat ass, as I thought that term was used for the people who spend every fucking waking hour online.

2.)  Alchemy I have always found to be way fun.  I almost never farm materials what so ever.  I just pick shit up as I go along leveling/questing/instancing/what ever.  I still make a ton of money.  Many of the potions are very usefull, and its fun to be able to make them at will.  It gives me great utility in the field (pisses rogues the hell off when I fear them and hit the swiftness potion stack  tongue).  It is, IMO, the ONLY worthwhile crafting skill in the game.  It is the only one that actually works on a supply/consumption model, like Eve has for all its items.  This is why you can actually make money with it.  It would be wonderfull if they could figure out a way for all the damn crafting skills to work like this somehow.

If they want to fix shit, make it so you dont absolutly have to have stacks of pots for everybody in your raid when you do instances.  In pre-bc, all we ever had to end up farming for was fire protection pots when we were first taking Rag down, and mats for flask of the titans for our main tank in BWL.  I always carried Greater Dreamless Sleep potions on me in case I needed a mana boost in a fight that went wrong.  That was the full extent of it.  I havent done any of the 25 man raids in BC yet.  Are consumables really that neccessary?
« Last Edit: April 04, 2007, 10:38:49 PM by Teleku »

"My great-grandfather did not travel across four thousand miles of the Atlantic Ocean to see this nation overrun by immigrants.  He did it because he killed a man back in Ireland. That's the rumor."
-Stephen Colbert
Chenghiz
Terracotta Army
Posts: 868


Reply #15 on: April 05, 2007, 12:19:51 AM

<words>

Did you even read the thread? Good lord. Consensus is that the current consumable use is bad; that isn't even an issue. Rogues are not the best PVE dps class in the game... I'm not even sure where you got that from. The consistent result almost across the board is that basically any class other than a rogue is better in every regard - utility, maintenance, and damage-wise. As far as trash goes, yes I agree that respawns suck but he isn't justifying the current amount of trash - in fact, he is in favour of decreasing the amount of it.

Quote from: Tigole
For example, the trash should be significantly easier to clear in most cases – and take less time. Also, we’ve lengthened the time between respawn on a lot of the trash. Yes, trash will respawn in some cases. [...] Yes, there are cases of the trash respawning too fast or the trash being too difficult or too lengthy. Those are the cases we hope to fix. We’ve also fixed some bugs that were allowing the trash to respawn after the boss for a certain area was dead.

Wow, that was so easy.

Are consumables really that neccessary?

Since the quality of gear doesn't really increase at the moment, and the difficulty of raid encounters does, the bleeding-edge guilds are using flasks and consumables in general very heavily in order to progress.

[edit] Also to expound upon the consumables vs alchemy thing, I don't think 'changes' will affect the alchemy market as it stands now. A good deal of the consumables used by a raid guild are created within the guild and don't ever see the open market. The only effect I think this will have is to make herbalism a less profitable, if indeed these changes are to reduce the effectiveness or increase the duration of elixirs and flasks.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2007, 12:45:11 AM by Chenghiz »
Merusk
Terracotta Army
Posts: 27449

Badge Whore


Reply #16 on: April 05, 2007, 04:19:27 AM

I think Rogues are still suffering from "I don't get it" on builds.  The 3 I know still outdamage the quality mages I know.  Of course, it also helps that they've gotten some nice weaps.  This guy is always #1 on single-targets.  Fuck, he was #1 on the maiden for chrissake.   While I'm sure this would change later (prior to the 180 degree cleave change) right now they seem fine.

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
MrHat
Terracotta Army
Posts: 7432

Out of the frying pan, into the fire.


Reply #17 on: April 05, 2007, 04:56:52 AM

I seriously think the cleave change was for the other melee classes like enh. shaman or dps warrior and less for the rogues.
Modern Angel
Terracotta Army
Posts: 3553


Reply #18 on: April 05, 2007, 05:37:44 AM

lamaros never reads the threads AND I agree that alchemy is a complete and total blight. Funny. Gurgthock over on EJ did some math on precisely how good alchemy is back in the Naxx days. If I may lift the relevant portion:

"Here are the key values:

Tier 1 Gear: 4450hp, 6085mana, 251 spirit, 365 +healing, 58 mana/5
Tier 2 Gear: 4250hp, 6700mana, 244 spirit, 567 +healing, 73 mana/5
Tier 3 Gear: 4610hp, 6970mana, 123 spirit (lol), 1008 +healing, 109 mana/5

+healing does less for mana conservation than it once did due to downranking changes, but it still can be more or less converted into some equivalent amount of mana regen since where +healing shines is generally in maximizing healing/mana rather than healing/time. There isn't a boss out there that puts out enough damage to require max-rank spam, so whether the +healing means downranking or fewer heals cast per minute, there is a mana savings. Based on the HealPoints and itemization formulas, I'm going to say that 6 +healing = 1 mana/5 for easy approximations.

Using that conversion ratio, we're left with the following:
Tier1: 119 mana/5
Tier2: 167 mana/5
Tier3: 277 mana/5

Unsurprisingly, tier 3 is a large step above the rest. That's good. Now, how do consumables fit into the picture? For a healer, let's assume the following non-exotic consumables:

Nightfin Soup = 8 mana/5
Mageblood Potion = 12 mana/5
Brilliant Mana Oil = 12 mana/5 and 25 +healing = 16 mana/5
Major Mana Potions = 1800 mana every 2 minutes = 75 mana/5 (!!)
Dark/Demonic Runes = 1200 mana every 2 minutes = 50 mana/5

Assuming all of the above used, I get a net benefit of 161 mana/5.

That is larger than the gap between mixed tier 1 with suboptimal enchants (no ZG enchants, etc.) and fully-enchanted optimal tier 3 gear. So, in order to feel this amount of character progression as a healer, instead of spending 15 months doing raid progression, I should've just used five consumables. Silly, isn't it? Obviously this is something of an oversimplification, and I do really feel the benefits of the gear, because in practice I am comparing myself fully-buffed now to myself unbuffed or partially-buffed then."

So Blizzard has had to tune even introductory encounters (pre-nerf Gruul anyone?) around the assumption that whoever CAN farm mass consumables WILL. The above is pre-BC; it's even worse now because of the scaling and new flasks. So what you have is a fundamental problem which Blizzard coded on Day One of release that's ballooned into a monster. The reason why the MC/BWL "casual" raiding of the past is dead is specifically because of this problem.
ajax34i
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2527


Reply #19 on: April 05, 2007, 06:42:32 AM

instead of spending 15 months doing raid progression, I should've just used five consumables. Silly, isn't it? Obviously this is something of an oversimplification

It's a bit of exaggerating and faulty logic, too.  15 months raid progression to get to Tier 3?  Shouldn't have taken more than 8 months, once 60 and in the guild and actually starting.  But that's beside the point.

He isn't using "5 consummables," he's talking about cycling these potions as fast as possible, in order to get those benefits.  Sure, you only use the flask of titans once per 2 hours, but chugging mana potions as fast as the timer allows, and buffing yourself up with the other potions every 15 min or 30 min will quickly add up the cost of said consummables to epic proportions.  You can look at it in terms of time spent farming for mats vs. time spent farming an instance for your permanent always-on gear, or in terms of cost (and it's better to look at guild bank expenses to "potion up" the raid, vs. whether they could spend the thousand or so gold buying purples (if it were possible to buy said purples, they would not cost all that much, considering how much gear was actually being disenchanted in our MC days)).

In any case, we don't like having to farm for stuff that goes poof when used, but we do like to farm for a permanent purple set that we can use forever (well, until the next upgrade).  I guess Blizzard tried to make us pay for the purples with the potions, and thus make us spend more time farming.  Maybe they're looking to remove the potions but instead add some other cockblock mechanism to slow down progression through any particular instance.
Modern Angel
Terracotta Army
Posts: 3553


Reply #20 on: April 05, 2007, 08:03:53 AM

He was talking about 15 months of raiding from MC to Naxx at that time, not 15 months in Naxx. You can feel free to argue with the raid leader of one of the (formerly) top guilds in the world and an all around good guy but you need to read between the lines there: you say who would chain chug mana pots when the answer is everyone at the top. And if a few people are doing it then Blizz has to assume EVERYONE will do it and that's the problem. It eliminates casual to mid range raiding. The beauty of WoW's raiding compared to EQ's was that there was a flavor for everyone. Just feel like raiding maybe four hours total a week? Why, there's ZG/AQ20/MC! Feel like going apeshit? Welcome to Naxx. Except now, because of the consumables, raiding requires maybe that four hours a week plus a shit ton of farming or gold buying.

It's just brutally obvious how screwed up it is now because it's also compounded by the shitty loot in TBC. I'm telling you that the raiding game right now is fucked on a fundamental, mathematical level because of alchemy and I have my doubts it can be unfucked.
ajax34i
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2527


Reply #21 on: April 05, 2007, 08:56:31 AM

the raid leader of one of the (formerly) top guilds in the world and an all around good guy

I'll file that in the "Worth Squat" folder, along with all the other gaming "achievements" anyone else boasts of, but I don't want to argue.  I agree that alchemy screwed up the game, just don't agree with the particular way he presented that argument.  I'm also not sure if nerfing alchemy will, alone, fix the problems; devs have a tendency to nerf one area of a game and then forget to buff the other area, for an actual fix to a problem.  Is there gear that can be farmed, given time, that would replace the effect these potions have?  My impression was "no", given all the talk about poor itemization.  And as far as nerfing mobs so that they're as easy to tackle without potions as they are now (with potions), I really doubt they'll do that.
Modern Angel
Terracotta Army
Posts: 3553


Reply #22 on: April 05, 2007, 09:09:54 AM

Which is why they may be in a situation that's unfuckable. I tend to like EJ. They're generally good guys, smart and they actually (gasp!) police their forums so the usual dickwaving is stamped out in a hurry. The forums draw people with firm grounding in the numbers under the hood of the game. If this was Xi (Furor v2.0! The irony...) I'd dismiss it out of hand but Gurg's good people and, while you or I may not chain chug mana pots, the math is sound.

I'm not sure how they can fix it short of putting a limiter of one elixir/one flask (which is the hot rumor right now) and then retuninig EVERY encounter in the game while redoing itemization from the ground up. That's not going to happen; 2.10 goes on the PTR in about three weeks and then another three weeks or so until live... it's a patch not a sprinkling of magic fairy fart dust.
Merusk
Terracotta Army
Posts: 27449

Badge Whore


Reply #23 on: April 05, 2007, 09:16:33 AM

The problems I have with giving creed to 'top raid leaders' are:
1) The assumption they are 100% correct without doing an analysis on your own.

     Who else is going to put in the time and the math to validate or invalidate his equations?   Even if you do, if you aren't a 'top raider' but are 100% more mathematically competent, you'll get poo-poohed because "you're just theorycrafting, nooblar.  Come back when you've ACTUALLY raided."

2)  The assumption that raid leaders don't have an agenda of their own.
 
   Furor was the biggest culprit of this kind of nonsense.  He didn't like that Shaman and Druids were getting good, reliable 75% heals in EQ.  (He's a bigtime hybrid hater.)  So there were many posts and graphs and charts about how much bullshit it was, and CLEARLY a guild should only use Shaman as healers now, fuck clerics, their Mana Efficiency is for shit!   It was an obvious agenda, particulaly when FOH DIDN'T stop using clerics as main healers.

3) The assumption that the way THESE raid leaders do things is the ONLY way to do things.

Just based on practical experiene alone, I can tell you this is horseshit.   Sometimes, yes, there is a more efficient way, but not always.  The prime example I can think of is the Panther boss in ZG.   The 'one true strategy' for a long time was 'tank the panthers in the pens, use pallies as healers, don't kill them.'  That wound up getting my raid group killed for months on end. Panther was a cockblock we couldn't get past.   Finally, we said, "Fuck it, let them come, we'll heal whoever's targeted then nuke the panthers when she vanishes."  What do you know, it worked every damn time from then on.

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
El Gallo
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2213


Reply #24 on: April 05, 2007, 09:53:09 AM

The problems I have with giving creed to 'top raid leaders' are:
1) The assumption they are 100% correct without doing an analysis on your own.

     Who else is going to put in the time and the math to validate or invalidate his equations?   Even if you do, if you aren't a 'top raider' but are 100% more mathematically competent, you'll get poo-poohed because "you're just theorycrafting, nooblar.  Come back when you've ACTUALLY raided."

I think that's true for a lot of places, but I don't think this is something you can pin on Gurgthok or EJ.  I've never seen a post like that on Elitist Jerks, and I'm pretty positive that making one would get you insta-banned.  For example, I don't think Kalman is in a bleeding-egde raid guild.  Nevertheless, he is widely regarded as the preeminent number-cruncher on EJ (especially for rogue-related issues) and one of the most respected posters on EJ.  The EJ forums aren't the official forums or FoH. 

Quote
2)  The assumption that raid leaders don't have an agenda of their own.
 
   Furor was the biggest culprit of this kind of nonsense.  He didn't like that Shaman and Druids were getting good, reliable 75% heals in EQ.  (He's a bigtime hybrid hater.)  So there were many posts and graphs and charts about how much bullshit it was, and CLEARLY a guild should only use Shaman as healers now, fuck clerics, their Mana Efficiency is for shit!   It was an obvious agenda, particulaly when FOH DIDN'T stop using clerics as main healers.

I'm sure Gurgthok has an agenda, I just think the agenda is to not make raiding so consumable-dependent because he thinks farming herbs to make or gold to buy potions is boring and un-fun.  It may be an anti-alchemist crusade for some nefarious purpose like enhancing his own profession, but I just don't see it.

As an aside, I'm almost positive you are thinking of Thott, not Furor.  Thott was the assmonkey with the numerous charts "proving" that shamans were better than clerics despite the fact that not having 5 clerics online = cancelled raid while everything was AOK with 1 shaman (I played a shaman in EQ so the Thott chart debacle is pretty clearly burned in my head).  Furor wasn't much for charts, he just would have used Haemish-esque language in reference to Smedley's unborn children.  I also think he was a little more open-minded than most (for example, he ranted that defensive discipline broke the game despite the fact that he played a warrior, who were made brokenly overpowered in raid situations by that ability), but that's another issue.

Quote
3) The assumption that the way THESE raid leaders do things is the ONLY way to do things.

Just from reading his posts on SomethingAwful and EJ, I don't think you can peg this on Gurgthok either.  You see people talk about various ways to attack the same encounter on EJ all the time and you don't see people getting shouted down. 

Anyway, I agree with you that people shouldn't be deemed credible just because they are a top raid leader, but I think this particular top raid leader does have a lot of credibility.


This post makes me want to squeeze into my badass red jeans.
Merusk
Terracotta Army
Posts: 27449

Badge Whore


Reply #25 on: April 05, 2007, 10:00:21 AM

Looks like I need to start reading the EJ forums.  I've avoided adding more boards to my repitore recently due to time, but sounds like one I could spare some time for.

You're right about Thott.  I knew it was Furor or Thott but couldn't remember who, so I punted.  Damn crosswinds.

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
Modern Angel
Terracotta Army
Posts: 3553


Reply #26 on: April 05, 2007, 10:23:33 AM

Yes, do check it out before judging it. This isn't your standard beat off contest WoW board. There's precisely one shining light in WoW fandom in the entire world and it happens to be those forums.
Lum
Developers
Posts: 1608

Hellfire Games


Reply #27 on: April 05, 2007, 01:08:31 PM

Yep, the EJ boards are THE place to go for quality Theorycrafting with a minimum of noise. I've lurked there for a while now.
WayAbvPar
Moderator
Posts: 19270


Reply #28 on: April 05, 2007, 03:08:28 PM

Yep, the EJ boards are THE place to go for quality Theorycrafting with a minimum of noise. I've lurked there for a while now.

And you semi-lurk here for the poo-flinging  :-D

When speaking of the MMOG industry, the glass may be half full, but it's full of urine. HaemishM

Always wear clean underwear because you never know when a Tory Government is going to fuck you.- Ironwood

Libertarians make fun of everyone because they can't see beyond the event horizons of their own assholes Surlyboi
Morat20
Terracotta Army
Posts: 18529


Reply #29 on: April 05, 2007, 03:19:00 PM

Hmm. The Cleave changes mean that BM-specced hunters have an easier time in raids. At least if they're using Warp Stalkers.
Merusk
Terracotta Army
Posts: 27449

Badge Whore


Reply #30 on: April 05, 2007, 03:39:36 PM

Hmm. The Cleave changes mean that BM-specced hunters have an easier time in raids. At least if they're using Warp Stalkers.

Was just reading a hunter mechanics thread noshing on this exact fact.  Once again the BMs are crying "we do more DPS than U!" while providing nothing more than anecdotal evidence.  So far I'm seeing little difference between the EJ and official WoW forums.  :-D

I'm also puzzling over EJ's insistence on using both Arcane & Multishot.

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
Morat20
Terracotta Army
Posts: 18529


Reply #31 on: April 05, 2007, 03:47:51 PM

Hmm. The Cleave changes mean that BM-specced hunters have an easier time in raids. At least if they're using Warp Stalkers.

Was just reading a hunter mechanics thread noshing on this exact fact.  Once again the BMs are crying "we do more DPS than U!" while providing nothing more than anecdotal evidence.  So far I'm seeing little difference between the EJ and official WoW forums.  :-D

I'm also puzzling over EJ's insistence on using both Arcane & Multishot.
BM DPS and Marks DPS should be about the same. Marks has higher burst potential and doesn't have to manage a pet, BM should catch up over long fights and has to micro-manage a pet.

Frankly, I don't give a shit who does more DPS -- I'm just happy that I might, in fact, be able to use my pet. I didn't go BM specced so it could sit next to me and howl.
Modern Angel
Terracotta Army
Posts: 3553


Reply #32 on: April 05, 2007, 04:12:18 PM

Hmm. The Cleave changes mean that BM-specced hunters have an easier time in raids. At least if they're using Warp Stalkers.

Was just reading a hunter mechanics thread noshing on this exact fact.  Once again the BMs are crying "we do more DPS than U!" while providing nothing more than anecdotal evidence.  So far I'm seeing little difference between the EJ and official WoW forums.  :-D

I'm also puzzling over EJ's insistence on using both Arcane & Multishot.

Assuming you have a single target and aren't going to bust up your CC why wouldn't you Multi? Dump some mana for higher dps in your shot rotation. Setting aside whether you give a fuck about dps or not it boosts your dps considerably over not using it.
Modern Angel
Terracotta Army
Posts: 3553


Reply #33 on: April 05, 2007, 04:19:04 PM

Oh, and I see which thread you're looking at. Don't judge it from that. Judge it from the fact that one of the mods will lock it sometime soon for being pointless bickering. Check the class mechanics forums instead.
Threash
Terracotta Army
Posts: 9171


Reply #34 on: April 05, 2007, 04:39:25 PM

Hmm. The Cleave changes mean that BM-specced hunters have an easier time in raids. At least if they're using Warp Stalkers.

Was just reading a hunter mechanics thread noshing on this exact fact.  Once again the BMs are crying "we do more DPS than U!" while providing nothing more than anecdotal evidence.  So far I'm seeing little difference between the EJ and official WoW forums.  :-D

I'm also puzzling over EJ's insistence on using both Arcane & Multishot.

Assuming you have a single target and aren't going to bust up your CC why wouldn't you Multi? Dump some mana for higher dps in your shot rotation. Setting aside whether you give a fuck about dps or not it boosts your dps considerably over not using it.

Well theres that whole dump some mana part, steady shot is very very easy on your mana pool while ms and arcane are not.

I am the .00000001428%
Pages: [1] 2 3 Go Up Print 
f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  The Gaming Graveyard  |  World of Warcraft  |  Topic: Time to roll out your rogue again?  
Jump to:  

Powered by SMF 1.1.10 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC