Xbox 360 Elite

[Velorath]

Who gives a fuck if they would have worked fine.

The people who don't want to pay $600 for a system.  I thought that was pretty clear actually 

I can't say I mind the inclusion of Blu-ray too much myself.  The PS3 won't be a must-buy for me until God of War 3 comes out which I can only assume will be at some point in 2009 and by then hopefully the price will have dropped a little.  Even so, my interest in Blu-ray has more to do with movies than any worries about disc swapping.

[stray]

Now you're just resorting to insults because you can't hold an argument.  At the moment, my PS2 disks outnumber GC+Wii disks combined by a fair bit.  For that matter, I have gotten more PS2 games than Wii games since November. 

How is that an insult? I said that maybe you're ignorant of anything but Nintendo and MMO's -- It's was an observation, not an insult.

If you're going to start calling things like R&C and MGS trivial (especially for a console that's barely been out, and needs games like that), then I can't help but think you're out of the loop.

But now that you mention it, you deserve to be insulted. You've done nothing but troll me here; changed your argument three times (four times really, if you count the pointless nonsense about Zelda); don't have the balls to concede any points after you give up and move on to the next; and insist on deeming technological advantages as faults (instead of just saying you personally don't need them and leave it at that).

1) "Blu-Ray is just for movies"

Response: No, it's a bigger storage medium for games too.

2) But, it doesn't have an immediate, "practical" use right now.

Response: I can list three titles off the top of my head that are here now or within the year

3) But... Those games are trivial

Response: Shares some of the value of what Resistance has brought as a launch title, then mentions R&C and MGS -- Games which shouldn't need any introduction

4) But, but... Zelda!


You deserve to be insulted for not stopping after point 1 and just saying "Ah, I see. You're right. Well, I can see the value in that, but I don't need it right now."


But no, you had to be fucking Roac.

[Azazel]

Resistance is 16 GB (not including the funky padding stuff) so already there are PS3 titles that don't fit on a single DL DVD disc.

Is it on a Blu-Ray disc, or multiple DVDs?

If you're now willing to admit that there's a use for more space, then it's not superfluous.

Besides that, many games aren't so linear as to have you just switch a disc and truck along. There could be a lot of backstepping and things like that.

That's not a new issue. A common way to get around that is to have the most common areas/data essentially "doubled up" on both discs. So to put in a linear sense, the 40-60% points in the game are repeated on each disc. Disc 1 - 0%-60%. Disc 2 - 40%-100%

[schild]

A blu-ray disc.

[Sairon]

Disc swapping won't really be an option as time goes on though. Resistance was 15gb without utilizing hi res textures correct? It would easily be pushing 30gb otherwise. I wouldn't exactly be thrilled with having a game with 6 DVDs which you would have to swap around. I can see larger RPGs pushing 50gb fairly easily if they wanted to, which would be almost 11 DVDs.

[Trippy]

Dual Layer DVDs can fit 8.5 GB so you don't need quite that many DVDs.

[Sairon]

Oh, more like 3 & 6 then 

[Merusk]

Yesterday's PA toon & article brought an interesting wrinkle to this in my mind.  Console makers & game devs - getting their asses kicked by EB & other secondhand game & console retailers, so digital distro seems to be what they should encourage. 

However, here we have an argument over 20th century storage & distribution  ideas rather than, "Fuck physical media anyway, they need a bigger HD for DLing and a way to store games on mem cards."

THAT would truly be next-gen.  All this current direction does is feed even more cash into the EB games monster as more folks buy the even-more-expensive PS3 games 2nd hand.

[schild]

People have been downloading games for years. There's nothing next-gen about it. It's just logical.

Problem is, a lot of companies - particularly the niche ones - depend on collectors. Collectors want a case, a manual, an artbook, an OST, etc. Really, companies need to simply say to EB, if you want to sell our games AT ALL, you can't sell used games. Sure, it would wipe out EB and Gamestop. But that's what needs to be done. Simply don't allow the second hand market to exist. I'm sorry, but Microsoft and EA could make that happen.

[stray]

Fiber Optic speeds would need to be more common to make lots of robust game delivery viable. Multi terabyte hard disks as well.

I don't see that happening for another 10 years at least.

[HaemishM]

It's like saying, hey, next year we're going back to wires on all controllers and you have to get up to turn the system on and off. A legion of gamers would kick the messengers ass on delivery of that.

Not really.

[stray]

Yes really. If Sony somehow tried to take out BD and include DVD instead, they'd fuck the platform for life. No developer is going to make both multi-DVD versions of games AND Blu-Ray ones. And even if they did, it'd be a retail nightmare. It'd be worse than switching controllers, in fact.

[Azazel]

People have been downloading games for years. There's nothing next-gen about it. It's just logical.

Problem is, a lot of companies - particularly the niche ones - depend on collectors. Collectors want a case, a manual, an artbook, an OST, etc. Really, companies need to simply say to EB, if you want to sell our games AT ALL, you can't sell used games. Sure, it would wipe out EB and Gamestop. But that's what needs to be done. Simply don't allow the second hand market to exist. I'm sorry, but Microsoft and EA could make that happen.

I'll have to second that, but while I'm not a true collector, I do like to have a shelf overflowing with original software titles. If you just got the data, well, the difference between a copy you "find on the internet" and your legit copy is so much smaller, that it may as well not exist. And unless they're going to demand you connect online to play your offline copy (ie HL2) then I'm not seeing it.

[Strazos]

I like to have something physical sometimes.

Also, I would be all for companies telling shops to shove their used game shit. You would not believe how much shit I have to listen to related (directly or tangentally) to the used games trade.

Well, I guess Nix and Schild would know, but still. It's a load of shit. Even when I ring up a new game, the system asks me if I would rather sell a used copy (if we have one). Their business model is extremely shortsighted; sure, they might make more money Now, but if the bulk of their sales is from used stuff, than that's a lot of people not buying New stuff, which means the actual devs are missing out on Tons of revenue, which means the only people left are MS, EA, and whoever chooses to suck on their teat. 

Do you have any idea how much I wanted to punch a manager in the mouth when he thought it was dumb that I prefer to buy my games new?

[Azazel]

The thing that stops me from buying used games is actually the fact that the savings are so minute that it just doesn't cut it for me. Especially when it's easy enough to find another retailer selling new_release_title_045 for AU$10+ less than EB, so when you get them to price match you're paying less than they're asking for the secondhand copy anyway.

Then again, I only shop there when a piece of software is a "maybe" as in "maybe a piece of shit I'll want to return". I get my older stuff and definates from indie stores.

[Strazos]

As far as used goes, it depends on the title. For old stuff, you can probably only find it used. And even for stuff that's newer, the difference is usually $5 or so. By itself it's not a whole lot, but if you then factor in the discount card you can get, and if you buy a decent amount of games throughout the year (but pretty much only games you would get anyway, not just buying the game because you have the discount), you can come out ahead I suppose. If you're smart it Can make financial sense...

For the consumer. Sucks balls for the devs.

[schild]

I have an Edge card solely to be nice to the store I preorder at. From the entire last generation, I bought close to 400, nay maybe 500 games. Maybe 15 of them were used.

And before some wiseass goes and does any math on that many $50 games... That includes stuff like Castle Shikigami for $9.99 new on GC, MANY gba and DS games that are only $29.99 and a SLEW of $14-$19 games. None of them were greatest hits, but you'd be surprised at the number of good titles out there to be had for sub $24.99.

[Strazos]

Yeah, new original releases can hang around on those back shelves for a Long Time...

[Velorath]

The thing that stops me from buying used games is actually the fact that the savings are so minute that it just doesn't cut it for me. Especially when it's easy enough to find another retailer selling new_release_title_045 for AU$10+ less than EB, so when you get them to price match you're paying less than they're asking for the secondhand copy anyway.

Then again, I only shop there when a piece of software is a "maybe" as in "maybe a piece of shit I'll want to return". I get my older stuff and definates from indie stores.

I pick up stuff used on ebay from time to time.  Recently got a copy of Marvel Ultimate Alliance for the 360 for $29 including shipping (a game that, based on my experiences with the X-men Legends games, I wanted to play but knew wasn't going to be worth $60).  Got a handful of other 360 games for around $15 each a couple months back.  All stuff I wasn't particularly interested in (Chromehounds, Phantasy Star Universe, Battle for Middle-Earth II), but figured it would make for some decent, cheap gaming.  I also get the occasional used game from Gamestop when I see something cheap that I didn't bother with when it was new (Front Mission IV for instance).

It's rare that a game is actually worth $50-60 to me.  God of War II, Gears of War, and Dead Rising were recent exceptions for me.  Otherwise I tend to wait for them to go to the Greatest Hits, or I'll pick up a cheap used copy at some point.  Sucks for the developers, but everything from clothing, to books, to movies, to furniture, has a secondhand market, and people working in those industries have managed to survive.  If they want me to stop buying used games they need to either start making their games a lot better or they need to start charging less for new games.

[Azazel]

To clarify, I was talking about used as in "used from EB". Where the used stuff tends to be only fractionally cheaper than the same title new. If it's something older that you can only find used, sure. I've bought hard-to-get older titles from there used as well. But buying, say Full Spectrum Warrior used for $79.99 while the new release price is $89.99 and you can get them to price-match K-Mart's $75 special or some other store's also-cheaper price makes no sense to me.

Buying newer stuff secondhand from other sources is a different matter, as secondhand stuff on eBay/the rest of the world not counting EB tends to be quite a bit cheaper.

I also tend to pick up quite a bit of stuff once it's started to have the inevitable price drops, I'm a far cry from a "buy all new releases on release at full price" kind of guy.

[Merusk]

I have an Edge card solely to be nice to the store I preorder at. From the entire last generation, I bought close to 400, nay maybe 500 games. Maybe 15 of them were used.

And before some wiseass goes and does any math on that many $50 games... That includes stuff like Castle Shikigami for $9.99 new on GC, MANY gba and DS games that are only $29.99 and a SLEW of $14-$19 games. None of them were greatest hits, but you'd be surprised at the number of good titles out there to be had for sub $24.99.

Even at an average of $20 per game that's 10k.  Get help.  :-D

[Azazel]

Not to actually defend schildy or anything, but that's really not that much over the course of several years, especially since he's stated before that his only real hobby is videogames. I've spent probably AU$10k or so on a combo of Star Wars toys, miniatures, reproductrion armour, videogames and various related shit in the last year, and I dread to consider what I've spent on Warhammer stuff over my lifetime. Even that pales to people who's hobbies include car building or boat building. Or holidays and trips. So you know, horses for courses.

Of course, schild is a young single male, and I'm half of a DINK couple, if you have kids and such, such extrvagant displays of self-indulgence are probably out.

[stray]

The entire last generation of games was about 7 years too.

10k is still a lot (just on games alone), but not as crazy when you put it in that context.


Gaming-wise, I probably bought about 200 games, 3 consoles (including 3 different PS2's), and a gaming PC (with upgrades over time). Count in my other hobby (guitars and/or music instruments), and just assuming the median price range of those games was $20 (probably not), I went over 10k as well.


It makes me more sick that I probably spent about $4k on cigarettes in the same amount of time.

[Yegolev]

I don't really keep score, but I bought a PS3, 360, Wii, and some number of games since mid-November.  Games like GoW2, Gears, Resistance, VF5, Twilight Princess, Dead Rising, SMT: Devil Summoner, maybe something else.  Also dropped $950 on my PC already.  I can't let such math enter my brain, so feel free to add that up in private.  I'm not going to suggest that this is some sort of way for a human to exist, in fact I would suggest that I am a terrible example of how to live.

[stray]

I've dropped about $2k since November (gaming purchases), and got a free computer as well. Yay me.

[Strazos]

I've spent $2500 on my PC alone over the last 5 years, but that might be a bit over.

For being a gamer, I probably spend a bit on the low side compared to a lot of people here. Had a PS2, traded it in, but got one again recently. Spent maybe $300-400 on PS2 games total. I've had my Xbox for awhile, and I've probably spent even less on games for that platform. I've been thoroughly satisfied with both platforms though.

PC games? I wouldn't know where to start. $1000 over 5 years on PC games would be a decent starting point, I guess. And then maybe $200 on DS games, plus the price of the DS.


I have too many other hobbies. Though maybe one day this week I'll scrounge through my stuff and get All my games together, and maybe see what I've actually spent. Should be pretty easy to calculate, as I buy the vast majority of my stuff new.

[Ixxit]

I can't say I mind the inclusion of Blu-ray too much myself.  The PS3 won't be a must-buy for me until God of War 3 comes out which I can only assume will be at some point in 2009 and by then hopefully the price will have dropped a little.  Even so, my interest in Blu-ray has more to do with movies than any worries about disc swapping.

Sony also has a reason beyond gaming to have an interest in Blu-Ray.  Everytime a PS3 is sold, a home aquires a Blu-Ray player, which gives them some leverage in the format war.  I believe Sony included coupons in each PS3 for free or discounted (not sure which) Blu-Ray movies which people have been redeeming which they can claim as 'movies sold' which also gives them leverage in the format war.

I personally own a XBox 360 with the HD DvD add on, and looking back, despite how cool Gears of War is, I wish I had picked up the PS3 instead (will pick one up in the fall). Now that I upgraded my computer, the 360 pretty much gets upscaling and HD DvD duty only.  Microsoft loves to nickel and dime their customer (charging for Live, and even extra avatar portraits for christ sake).   Microsoft desires to make their console a media hub with purchased downloadable movies and tv shows, yet they provide a tiny hardrive and expect you to re download stuff or buy another teeny hardrive at an overinflated cost.  The Elite, with it's  bigger hardrive is somewhat of a response to this, but it's larger drive is pretty small when you are dealing with HD stuff and if you want another drive, you HAVE to go out and buy a  proprietary drive at an overinflated cost.

IMO the PS3 is pretty much futureproof.  If you want more space, go to your local store and buy any compatible drive.  Also saying the Blu-Ray won't help the gaming asect of the console is not really thinking it through.  Just as an example the XBox version of Doom 3 is missing stuff from the PC version.  Parts of levels are not there because of the limitations of the XBox.  Being an eternal optimist, I would say that advances in technology (faster processors,  move ram, move physical storage)  can only augment the creative process.  Sure you can be impressed with what develpoers have wrung out of the Cube, the PS , the Genesis and so on, but it seems a little silly to expect developers to continue working within the limitations of outdated hardware, or conversly  not taking adantange of the state of the art (in this case Blu-Ray).  Games stored  on Blu-Ray  will have an  impact this generation.

[Merusk]

To:   You silly people.

Re: "Get Help" - To Schild

It was a joke.  He said, "don't you bastards.. blah blah blah."  So I did anyway, just to push buttons.
Ha ha, you ruined the funny.

- Mer

[schild]

What funny?

































zing.

[Merusk]

See, just like that.  Someone sets you up, you take the shot. It's much more amusing that way.

[Azazel]

 

Happy now?


anyway...

IMO the PS3 is pretty much futureproof.  If you want more space, go to your local store and buy any compatible drive.

Tell me more about this.

[bhodi]

Where the fuck is my XBMC replacement, PS3MC or 360MC or whatever? I really need to replace my aging xbox, but XBMC is a critical piece of my home entertainment center.

PS3 can replace my dvd player (it DOES do upscaling, right?), but I need a network share type device... and unless the 360 hacks have come farther than I thought, things just aren't there yet.

[stray]

Tell me more about this.

You can use off the shelf 2.5" SATA's with the PS3 (cheaper too. For example, a 120GB 2.5 Seagate will cost $90. As opposed to Microsoft's pricing of $180).

[Azazel]

Tell me more about this.

You can use off the shelf 2.5" SATA's with the PS3 (cheaper too. For example, a 120GB 2.5 Seagate will cost $90. As opposed to Microsoft's pricing of $180).

As in "unscrew (bye warranty!), unplug, swap, plug, rescrew, looky here a much larger HDD and everything works just fine"?

[ahoythematey]

If you don't like doing that, you can connect external drives via USB as well.