Eve Online - toons go walkabout at last

[Endie]

They look very nice.

And sitting! In chairs!

Crazy.

Yep.  Everyone knows you should sit next to, or near chairs, but not on them.

[Hoax]

Now they are adding voice also, ripped from MMORPG.com:

Game Developers Conference, San Francisco, CA - March 7, 2007 - CCP Games, the world's largest independent game developer, today announced the integration of voice communication into leading Sci-Fi Massively Multiplayer Online Game (MMOG), EVE Online. Players will now be able to speak to each other for better coordination, negotiation, socializing and planning. The addition of voice adds a new dimension to the award-winning game used by over 160,000 active players.

EVE Voice gives players the ability to communicate with each other directly from within the game without the use of third party communication applications. This will enhance coordination of players during intense gameplay such as battles, improve inter-player negotiations, enrich planning and bring a new facet to social interaction, as it will now be an integrated part of the game.

"EVE Online is a deeply strategic, open-ended game in which thousands of players must cooperate and compete," said Magnus Bergsson, chief marketing officer at CCP Games. "We recently had a fleet battle with more than 1,000 players in one sector of the EVE universe. The amount of communication between those players in planning and executing these maneuvers is vast. Adding integrated voice will not just enhance gameplay by accelerating those plans and allowing players to react quickly as situations unfold in-game, but it will give combat pilots a strategic advantage."

"Being avid EVE players ourselves, providing voice to the EVE community is a tremendous experience for us," said Monty Sharma, vice president marketing at Vivox. "The level of play in EVE is incredibly sophisticated. Adding voice to a world of this caliber, so that it is accessible to the thousands of EVE players simply and easily, will augment the game in many ways. We know that EVE's players will make the most of these new features, and we're excited to watch the creative ways in which the players will use them to reach their goals."



EVE Voice features

EVE Voice is fully integrated into the EVE client software, eliminating the need for third party applications, which take up computer resources, require a dedicated voice server, and pose a security risk. Features of EVE Voice include:

- High quality - offers sound quality which is considerably higher than other IP-based communication applications

- Player to player direct chat - with talk indicator to show which player is speaking

- Group chat - allowing corporation, fleet, or alliance members to communicate one-to-many within a dedicated audio channel

- Sub-group chat - allowing smaller groups within a corporation, such as a squad or gang, to discuss specific topics among themselves

- Group leader talk - instantly mutes other players on the group's audio channel ensuring the leader's instructions can be heard clearly during crucial times, such as in the heat of battle

- Map integration - shows where players are when speaking, allowing better coordination of tactical assaults, reconnaissance or search and rescue missions

- Moderator controls - allows leaders to kick other players off the audio channel (in case of abuse, for instance), to mute them (so they can hear but not be heard), ban (prevent them from accessing the audio channel) and un-ban players



EVE Voice has been developed in partnership with Vivox, the leading provider of integrated voice services for online games, which will also operate the service. See also partnership announcement from May 10, 2006 for details.

EVE Voice will be available from late March 2007 as an optional feature for players at a price of $10 for unlimited usage for 12 months. Players can access the updated client software here: http://www.eve-online.com/download/ Players must use a compatible headset and microphone to take advantage of the call quality offered by EVE Voice.

[Endie]

Now they are adding voice also, ripped from MMORPG.com:

This one has twin advantages: first, it is actually useful in gameplay (albeit just as a replacement for TS etc), and second, you can currently try it out on Tranq if in the right corp.

I wonder if it will cut down the problems with spying/bombing of TS channels through use of corp-only/invite-only etc rights on channels.  Of course, the alt spy will still get in.

[tmp]

I wonder if it will cut down the problems with spying/bombing of TS channels through use of corp-only/invite-only etc rights on channels.  Of course, the alt spy will still get in.

Probably not since sensible corps/alliances already limit access to anytyhing but lobby channel with TS. On the other hand it may cut the amount of "omg meta out-of-game spying" whines because technically the spying would now happen in game.

[Viin]

I, for one, am real excited about the voice chat. If it works as well as Vent/TS then it'd be well worth the $10 for the year. (Plus that means one person isn't spending $20/month for a Vent server  :-D).

I'm hoping others will see the success of this implementation and start incorporating voice chat into other MMOs - which are inherently social and group based, but yet the default is to *type* everything. Just because that's how we did it with MUDs doesn't mean we have to keep doing it!

[Numtini]

They should raise the price of the subscription rather than make it $10 a year.

And I guess i just don't get why you would want to get out of your spaceship. Though it looks pretty.

[Viin]

They should raise the price of the subscription rather than make it $10 a year.

And I guess i just don't get why you would want to get out of your spaceship. Though it looks pretty.

So all the whiners who say they don't have an attachment to their ships (because there's not really an avatar) can stop whining about that and instead whine that there's only 5 card poker and not 7 card poker and blackjack.

I assume (as mentioned by other foks) they are doing this more as a test/tech demo for their new engine pieces - might as well put it into EVE so that the above mentioned whiners stop whining. 

[Nija]

I for one wish they wouldn't work on all this flashy shit.

They need to work on getting 1000 person fleet battles working.

[Yegolev]

Shiny sells subs.

Always avoid alliteration.

[Afropuff]

Me likey teh new shiney.  Avatars plus built-in voice is enough to make me want to re-up and try Eve again.  

[Morat20]

I for one wish they wouldn't work on all this flashy shit.

They need to work on getting 1000 person fleet battles working.

I'd imagine they are. (I know they're still working to change fleet structures, for one). There's a limit to how many developers you want to throw at a problem at a time. The technical hurdles involved in their fleet battles are pretty staggering, but there's a limit to how many ways they can approach it -- and throwing too many people on it is worse than ignoring it.

However, CCP has a large Dev team -- and since a WoD MMORPG is at least in the conceptual stage, CCP's got to have developers tasked solely with that. (Probably new hires -- their staff has grown a great deal over the last year or two) -- and using EVE as a testbed for that software is a brilliant idea. Unlike shit like the NGE, the "Walking in stations" stuff is going to have zero impact on actual game-play -- so it's low-risk. Secondly, they can prototype it on a real, life game meaning real, life customer feedback -- and that means real, live experience with loads and usage.

Mostly, though, it's the sort of shiny that's going to attract more customers and offers a foundation for latter expansion. The biggest complaint I've heard about EVE is the sense of detachment potential players have from their character. Offering even a limited social space and 3D avatars is a big step towards rectifying that --- using people whose skills aren't remotely useful for things like trying to optimize combat and system code to handle an unbelievable node stress.

I'm personally waiting for the gambling. It'll be fun to see how that evolves -- can you imagine a high stake game? Rich players wagering T2 ships, BPOs, modules? Perhaps even a POS or three?

[Nija]

Shiny sells subs.

Always avoid alliteration.

I don't think Shiny will pull in more Eve subs. It'll be like shiny hang gliders running into the plateau that is the Eve learning curve.

[Hoax]

It wont really pull many true newbies but it will give people who have played EvE before and quit (which I bet is a rather large population) a reason to come check it out again.

[Morat20]

It wont really pull many true newbies but it will give people who have played EvE before and quit (which I bet is a rather large population) a reason to come check it out again.

I've heard a significant number of "I'd like to try/I liked the game BUT" comments -- and the "but" I hear most is "But I feel like I'm just a flying ship, not the person inside it". Going walkabout on station would help players who want more of the "I am my character" feel.

[Yoru]

It wont really pull many true newbies but it will give people who have played EvE before and quit (which I bet is a rather large population) a reason to come check it out again.

I've heard a significant number of "I'd like to try/I liked the game BUT" comments -- and the "but" I hear most is "But I feel like I'm just a flying ship, not the person inside it". Going walkabout on station would help players who want more of the "I am my character" feel.

Picture this.

Black walkway, cold blue lights running along either side, inside a hangar full of warships. Along each side are single-file lines of Goons at attention. Remedial walks slowly down between the rows, swinging a giant ham, the Imperial March playing over the local Vivox voice line; as he moves towards a massive ship at the end of the walkway, hands shoot up in salute. Ceasing at the airlock, he turns, salutes, and voices two words to the assembled Swarm: "Haven't brakes."

And then a thousand-man gang undocks, for great fofofo.

[tmp]

And then a thousand-man gang undocks, for great fofofo and gets collectively stuck on the loading screen.

Fixed.

[Daeven]

You know, I've never really thought about it, but Eve is starting to sound a bit like MMO Star Fleet Command.

Ok. Getting off my ass now.

[Morat20]

You know, I've never really thought about it, but Eve is starting to sound a bit like MMO Star Fleet Command.

Ok. Getting off my ass now.

Unavoidable outgrowth of the fact that combat is based on the navy, not the air force. :) I'm waiting for BoB to cross D2's T.

If the Pacific War was like this, Pearl Harbor might have turned out better. When the Hawaii node crashed, I bet we'd have logged in first -- the Japanese are halfway across the world, after all.

[Venkman]

The Eve/VIVOX (voice company) thing has been known since E3 2006, possibly before. It's just now almost ready for deployment.

Edit: Ah, here it is

The avatar thing is really cool, but I agree this is more for current players than bringing in new ones. Because I disagree a bit with this statement:

"But I feel like I'm just a flying ship, not the person inside it". Going walkabout on station would help players who want more of the "I am my character" feel.

I think it's more disassociative than even that. You don't feel like you're flying the ship (unless you're, say, in an assault frigate fight). You feel like you're giving commands to your ship and it is doing the work of flying. So very different from space sims. But even more importantly, it's so very different from any other RPG-like experience. Eve is more like an RTS where you control only one unit.

Walking around a station isn't going to help that, cool (and very nice looking) though it is. It's a nice little feature, and I'm hoping this is a precursor to them adding an incockpit view at least.

At this point though, I don't think Eve will ever got true space sim. Too much of everything that happens is tied to the stats of the game. Adding too much player skill to combat would radically shift, well, everything. And while they've done nothing but grow over the last 18 months, it's been incremental. They don't have enough subs to pull an NGE, regardless of the skepticism their community already has of them.

[Dundee]

They look very nice.

And sitting! In chairs!

Crazy.

Yep.  Everyone knows you should sit next to, or near chairs, but not on them.

Yeah, ZING!

 ...

Right, well... look how few MMOs implement chair-sitting. There's generally sitting and chairs, but they don't have anything to do with one another.

E&B took a minimalist approach to implementing avatars: The only things they needed to implement were running and standing. The avatars were just an occasional reminder that you were not, in fact, a space ship. They were a tool for immersion: the belief being that players would not identify with a space ship, and so needed an avatar with which to identify, in order to feel immersed.

But that intention or purpose doesn't require chair-sitting. That Eve's got that, implies their avatars are for a different purpose.

It is significant, believe it or not. That's why so few games do it, and on the dev teams for the games that have it, there's only one guy who insisted on it, and everyone else thinks him an ass for squandering a considerable amount of art and code development time toward enabling what amounts to a way for avatars to "do nothing." It is considered so inconsequential that even if there's a ridiculous bug with it, that might go a year or two without being fixed.

So what this implies to me, is that the Eve avatars are not being implemented as tools of immersion, but more for communication.

Like emoticons, kinda.

Other implications naturally follow: Robust noticeable customization options (for communication: intended for the sake of self-expression), over more subtle customization options (for immersion: intended to make identifying your avatar as yourself easier); and so on.

From the little video showing two dudes (one pretending to be a girl) sitting, saluting, and walking, that's what I got, anyway. It showed me where to start building the pile of expectations, anyway.

[WindupAtheist]

I won't play an MMO that won't let me sit in a chair.

I'm not joking.

[Morat20]

I won't play an MMO that won't let me sit in a chair.

I'm not joking.

No shit. What the fuck are the chairs for? I note that WoW's chair-sitting is pretty damn near flawless. I don't recall, in fact, ever having an issue with sitting near the chair, inside the chair, hovering over the chair, or -- to note one particularly fun SWG bug -- sitting on the chair then five minutes later sliding five meters to the left to hover in midair.

I always got the impression that in SWG, moreso than normal, there was often serious client/server disparities in location. Since my wife played on a PC five feet away, I often noticed that her client registered me in a different spot than mine did -- even when we'd both been standing still. It's not something I've noticed with WoW. (They seem to have a really solid feeling world -- you can still intersect with objects at times (some of the instances have a number of rocks that you can stand inside) but the buildings, tables, chairs, beds -- you rarely actually end up inside them.

I suspect that's one small factor for their success -- nothing breaks immersion quite like running through a building or falling through a chair.

Still, I agree with Dundee in the sense that EVE's major goal here is to faciliate communication and socialization -- a 3D chat room. One of the EVE devs said something like they're going for a bar or cantina feel -- a place to hang out and talk to other pilots, corp members, or whatnot in a way that's more immediate than chat. Looks like they'll have interfaces for meeting and planning rooms, and probably agents and the market -- and hopefully gambling (the MMO version of a bar, I guess).

What I think is interesting is that the nature of this (an instanced 'other world') means they can add a lot more features without straining the game world -- like that big map in the meeting room. It'd be pretty cool if battle planners could access the map, draw up attack routes or patrol routes and activate them on the map during a meeting -- showing everyone in the room while talking. There's a lot of useful tools and neat things you can do in an MMORPG that no one does, because it takes a lot of CPU cycles in games that don't want to spare them lest they lag combat.

Of course, if they're ultimately ending to add combat to the avatar game, they might not do that. I'm kind of iffy on if they plan to, to be honest.

[Venkman]

WoW's world stuff never moves. All of SWG's stuff is built by an engine specifically designed to let that stuff move. I imagine keeping track of both avatars and every world object they can interact with at any given time is many orders of magnitude more complex in SWG.

Does that matter to the user though? No. They only see broken or not broken. And that's been SWG's problem all along. Only a small group of players want to pay for the privilege of building a game alongside people paid to do so.

[Endie]

They look very nice.
And sitting! In chairs!
Crazy.

Yep.  Everyone knows you should sit next to, or near chairs, but not on them.

Yeah, ZING!

Yeah, I thought you were deliberately trailing that feed line.

But I think you were right there, that what we saw points heavily to a socialisation emphasis from this development.  The people wanting to storm stations will be waiting a long time (although the Eve devs have dreamed out loud about planetary combat in the far future.

[Yoru]

I won't play an MMO that won't let me sit in a chair.

I'm not joking.

I remember betaing Ragnarok Online so many years ago.

Not enough levels. Unable to sit.

Yeah, you had to level up to get the SITTING ability.

Koreans. 

[Baldrake]

Eve is a game I've wanted so much to love. I've subbed on three separate occasions now, the last (and by far the best) being with Yoru and Yegolev and the gang. But I just can't get past that so much of the game is spent waiting for the good stuff - mining, hauling, docking, travelling all over the universe to buy stuff, bleah. Despite this, seeing that video has me itching to resub yet again.

I don't know how to design a game with Eve's open-ended, strategic nature that doesn't take so much real time to play. I wish someone would figure it out, though.

[tkinnun0]

WoW's world stuff never moves.

They have elevators, trains, ships and zeppelins to move players around (I don't consider griffons in this category, because you're not in control for the duration). They also have few short-duration objects (a pillar of light, target dummy, repair bot) players can place in the world. So they have the technology, they're just not using it, much, yet.

[Yoru]

WoW's world stuff never moves.

They have elevators, trains, ships and zeppelins to move players around (I don't consider griffons in this category, because you're not in control for the duration). They also have few short-duration objects (a pillar of light, target dummy, repair bot) players can place in the world. So they have the technology, they're just not using it, much, yet.

It's less a question of being able to put collidable nonstatic objects in the spatial partitioner (that's not too hard) and more being able to do it efficiently with large numbers of objects of varying density (i.e. to be able to efficiently store and process a small, densely-packed area of collidables while also being able to efficiently store and process a large, very loosely-packed area of collidables).

But WoW in general has very few collidable nonstatic objects. Elevators, the tram, ships and zeppelins are the only examples I can think of. Players, spell effects, and target dummies are noncollidable, IIRC.

Collision calculations during movement brunch on your CPU.

[Morat20]

WoW's world stuff never moves.

They have elevators, trains, ships and zeppelins to move players around (I don't consider griffons in this category, because you're not in control for the duration). They also have few short-duration objects (a pillar of light, target dummy, repair bot) players can place in the world. So they have the technology, they're just not using it, much, yet.

Maybe. I'm not sure it's the same, though. SWG's problem wasn't really that they had a problem locating objects -- it was that for some reason the client and the server didn't have to agree on it, or even come vaguely close. Like I said -- playing it side by side with another person, and you could see rather startling differences in player and mob positions.

I think SWG's warping, pathing, and "sliding out of freaking chairs" problem was due to some issue involved with synching client and server data on toon location, and not some technical problem with moveable chairs. I know that the times I find myself forceably dismounted off my speeder, or flying through buildings, were caused by my client zipping me around and through a building before the server got around to telling me the building was there -- which tells me either the speeders moved a HELL of a lot faster than was originally assumed to be max toon speed, or the engine wasn't up to handling fast moving characters. Or both.

I suspect engines that start developing towards multi-core systems and modern graphic cards will have less problems. I did notice GreenMaring got the bloody chair problem fixed -- then it got patched back in a few publishes later, with snappy movement. (Seriously, what the fuck was up with snappy movement? Making my character look like he needs to take anti-convulsants does NOT actually make combat feel faster paced. Just look stupider).

[Lantyssa]

But WoW in general has very few collidable nonstatic objects. Elevators, the tram, ships and zeppelins are the only examples I can think of. Players, spell effects, and target dummies are noncollidable, IIRC.

Collision calculations during movement brunch on your CPU.

Some of these are instanced in some form or fashion.  The Tram and Boats for example.

[Venkman]

Exactly. The points of movable elements which characters interact are relegated to their own specific spaces, limiting the collision needed to relatively small spaces. This is way very different from SWG. Sure that had static locations all over the place, but the engine for that is, iirc, the same engine that worked inside a fully configurable house interior, being separate only by privileges.

[Ratadm]

I don't see eve voice catching on at high levels.  It's not free unlike the current options (talking about your average joe here and not the server owner obviously) and there are benefit of having a chat not connected to the game such as if you crash I doubt eve voice will continue to work while third parties will continue to.  Just a guess though.

[Comstar]

If it works (and that's a mighty big iF for me with the time it takes to fix some bugs) some alliences and corps will start *demanding* that players use it. At least, that's probably CCP's hope.

It is a great idea to have an ingame chat, and if it's not effected by the in game lag you get, I'd use it, just to be able to have everyone but the FC shut the frek up when he gives orders.

[Venkman]

The cool thing Vivox brings to Eve is the ability to see who's talking. afaik there's no overlay mod to highlight the ship doing the talking (I hear there's something like that for TeamSpeak and WoW but never bothered to confirm).

Vivox is also in Second Life. There you can actually make RL phone calls as well (or at least that was the promise). Vivox was created by folks from telecom, so their service is both voicechat and telecom integration if you want it (ie, CCP did not want the telecom part).

[MahrinSkel]

Well, looking at this, I have to wonder "Where's the gameplay?"  Why does my corp want to pretend to hold meetings under a galactic map hologram?  Why do I want to pretend to walk from there to my ship?  In the flight stuff, I can see potential with planetary exploitation and fighting over the resources, but the avatar stuff seems like they're building a technology they'll use in some other game.  It just doesn't fit.

--Dave