Goodbye lottery, hello... invention?!

[Yoru]

Tech2 lottery to be scrapped, schedule moved up ostensibly because of playerbase distrust of the process.

The replacement? BPCs from invention.

Better stockpile that T2, T2 prices are gonna go through the roof again. 

Looks like they're thinking about T3, though, as the introduction of new tech levels is explicitly mentioned several times.

[Morat20]

Tech2 lottery to be scrapped, schedule moved up ostensibly because of playerbase distrust of the process.

The replacement? BPCs from invention.

Better stockpile that T2, T2 prices are gonna go through the roof again. 

Looks like they're thinking about T3, though, as the introduction of new tech levels is explicitly mentioned several times.

Well son of a bitch. I don't really know how invention works, but I got the impression you have to run 0.0 complexes for some of the parts. Which, if you buy, is expensive as shit for a tiny chance at getting something from invention.

[TheDreamr]

...and just as I'm working on joining that rat-race an' all 

However as I understand it exploration can yield a lot of the parts required (datacores, data interfaces etc.) without venturing into 0.0, but lacking any first-hand experience I couldn't guess how much effort would be required for one invention job.

Currently I'd dearly love to be able to sink some time into exploration but there always seems to be something more urgent.

[Sparky]

Tech2 lottery to be scrapped, schedule moved up ostensibly because of playerbase distrust of the process.

The replacement? BPCs from invention.

Better stockpile that T2, T2 prices are gonna go through the roof again.  

Looks like they're thinking about T3, though, as the introduction of new tech levels is explicitly mentioned several times.

Well son of a bitch. I don't really know how invention works, but I got the impression you have to run 0.0 complexes for some of the parts. Which, if you buy, is expensive as shit for a tiny chance at getting something from invention.

The bit you get from 0.0 complexes is endlessly reusable, and the drop rate for them is really good now so the prices have come down to 100's of million rather than multibillions.  Main barrier to invention seems to be the success rates, although I hear that's much better on modules than ships.  Hopefully the rebalancing will sort that all out.

I don't see why T2 prices are going to spike though, they're not destroying current BPO (in fact they'll be dumping a lot more before turning off the faucet).  They better make all ships/modules inventable though.

[Yoru]

I don't have all the details, but there's several basic components.

1. Tech1 BPC, trivial. No explanation needed.

2. (optional) Tech1 or named item. Ditto.

3. Datacores. These come in types categorized by the various sciences (e.g. Plasma Physics). They can be obtained in two ways - either purchased for a lot of RPs from a research agent (I think it's 600 RP = 1 datacore?) or found via hacking/archaeology via exploration (fairly rare).

4. Data Interfaces. I'm not clear on the mechanics here. I believe they're produced from rare low-run BPCs found only in exploration or possibly 0.0 complexes.

5. Decryptors? (Optional?) Also not clear, I believe they're rare items from exploration. Also, to use them you need the proper racial Encryption Methods skills, which are extremely rare drops from exploration. These skills go for 150+ million isk on the market, when you can find them. I know I found something that sounded like one of these once from exploration (0.5 system) which sold for 30 million - it required Caldari Encryption Methods and improved the ME of an invented BPC, according to the description.

Then you assemble all this crap in an Invention slot and wait. When done, your BPC, item, and datacores go poof (maybe your decryptor too?), and sometimes you get a BPC. From what I hear, the highest-run BPCs people are getting these days are 19 runs.

[WayAbvPar]

So the existing BPOs stay in the game, and the megapowers have irreplaceable assets. Same as it ever was.

[Yoru]

So the existing BPOs stay in the game, and the megapowers have irreplaceable assets. Same as it ever was.

Time for infiltration and theft!  :-D

[ajax34i]

Is it a manually (dev) controlled distribution system like the T2 lottery was, or are we finally switching to a "drop percentages and time invested / grind" system?

Actually, nevermind, with their item-mudflation phobia, they'll pre-nerf it to hell and keep the casual player from being able to participate for years to come.

[Yoru]

Is it a manually (dev) controlled distribution system like the T2 lottery was, or are we finally switching to a "drop percentages and time invested / grind" system?

Actually, nevermind, with their item-mudflation phobia, they'll pre-nerf it to hell and keep the casual player from being able to participate for years to come.

Invention is multiple computer-controlled chance-based stages, some of which can be circumvented:

* Getting the initial data interface is chance based, although the chance is high. Circumvented via: LOTS of Moneys.
* Getting the datacores are very chance based (low chance of finding an exploration site in a given system, 1/4 chance it's the right type, moderate chance if it is the right type that it'll drop datacores), circumvented either via Moneys or slowly buying them for RPs (time).
* Decryptors are also exploration, so chance. Circumvention is expensive via Moneys.
* Product itself may or may not appear when the invention timer completes, and its quality varies. No circumvention.

Pretty much the only thing that isn't left up to chance is that, when you do succeed, you know you'll get a T2 BPC for a specific item.

So it's more of a time-invested/chance-based grind. Which sucks, particularly because the investment to pull the lever just once is so high.

[ajax34i]

I prefer a time-invested/chance-based grind to "please please devs, it's been 6 months, push the button and add another BPO please!"  It sucks, but all we have to do is convince them to un-nerf it.

It would be interesting to figure out what these % chances would have to be so that T2 BPC's come into the game at about the same rate as all the T2 BPO owners plugging all their Originals into research labs to copy, and selling the copies to the playerbase as soon as they're made.

[Trouble]

In the end it's not really a chance based grind it all, it's all about money/time investment. You can buy everything you need to do invention for a market determined price and the invention process itself, while having a chance component, is relatively predictable over a small to medium number of trials based on the quality of the T1 bpc you're working off of. For a serious producer you can get it down to money in -> bpc's out formula.

The fact that all current BPOs would be left in the game does not sit well with me. Leaving powerful "items" in a game that can no longer be procured has always lead to bad things in the past with MMOs.

[Morat20]

In the end it's not really a chance based grind it all, it's all about money/time investment. You can buy everything you need to do invention for a market determined price and the invention process itself, while having a chance component, is relatively predictable over a small to medium number of trials based on the quality of the T1 bpc you're working off of. For a serious producer you can get it down to money in -> bpc's out formula.

The fact that all current BPOs would be left in the game does not sit well with me. Leaving powerful "items" in a game that can no longer be procured has always lead to bad things in the past with MMOs.

If I was CCP -- which in case you're hiring, I'd totally move to Iceland -- I'd make the BPO's out there expire. Not right away. Put a timer on them. Current T2 BPOs have, I dunno, 30 hours of copy or research time on them -- and I'd limited the size of the copy runs to the current invented T2 BPCs. So when you were ready, you could take your T2 BPO, slot it, and run 7 to 19 (or whatever) run copies for 30 hours. Then the BPO goes poof, and you're left with a set of BPCs that are indistinquishable from the newly invented ones.

I'd give BPOs' given out in the last lottery more time -- 120 hours or something and maybe not count efficiency research -- and "age" it backwards from there. That way anyone who gets or currently has one of the old-style T2 BPOs can run off a serious number of copies that act just like invented copies, so they still get something from winning. But the BPO's poof and everything switches to invented sooner or later. (Smart people might save their old BPOs for a good market time or whatnot).

That's a bit cumbersome, but I'm sure they can find a simpler way to basically do that.

If they're not planning on doing that, they better plan on seriously raising the drop rates (and cutting the RP cost) of shit so that current BPO holders with well researched BPOs don't just flood the market and make invention pointless.

[Trouble]

Well what you're basically saying is to switch all current T2 BPO's in the game to BPC's with perhaps a larger than average number of runs on them. You can invent BPC's with say 20 runs on them now, and maybe make all current BPO's turn into BPC's with 500 runs or something.

[ajax34i]

If they're not planning on doing that, they better plan on seriously raising the drop rates (and cutting the RP cost) of shit so that current BPO holders with well researched BPOs don't just flood the market and make invention pointless.

What do you mean "flood the market"?  I thought that the whole point of the lottery was to limit the number of BPO's to something that CCP felt comfortable with, and since they can't control what a player will do with it, that must mean comfortable with the players "flooding" the market as you put it.  Don't these things take as long to copy (quantity: 1) as they take to make the actual ship?

I'm hoping they're planning to do what they did with the Miner II's, make these T2 items and ships common.  Not as common as the Miner 2's of course, but more common than now.  I don't know, does the current supply of Sabres, for example, can it support a war like the current one, but where people flew Sabres, instead of everyone immediately running back to T1 cheapo ships to save cash, and blobbing instead?

[Morat20]

Well what you're basically saying is to switch all current T2 BPO's in the game to BPC's with perhaps a larger than average number of runs on them. You can invent BPC's with say 20 runs on them now, and maybe make all current BPO's turn into BPC's with 500 runs or something.

Basically, yeah -- it becomes a phase out of T2 BPOs. The new way to get T2 BPOs is to research T1 BPOs (or BPCs?) along with some other stuff, and if you're lucky you get a T2 BPC with a certain number of runs and a random efficiency. I'm not sure how, exactly, one would raise that efficiency or whether your current skills with efficiency affect that.

ajax: The problem is they're moving away from unlimited run BPOs to "invention" that allows you to invent a limited-run BPC of a T2 item. If they leave the original BPOs in-game, it's always going to be cheaper for a BPO holder to run off and sell a BPC of a T2 item then for someone to "invent it". (Invention is, and will remain, damn expensive).

Turning off the introduction of new BPOs isn't going to help -- current BPO owners will just drop their prices for BPCs to right below the cost of inventing a BPC of it, and price inventors out of the market -- and they'll have no new competition once they set the price point.

[Trouble]

Just a quick FYI, I believe the way invention works now is that the stats of the T1 bpc you're inventing off of have a heavy influence on the resulting bpc. Higher runs, ME, and PE give you better odds on getting good numbers on the resulting BPC.

[JoeTF]

they totally need to conver all BPOs to BPCs.
They killed infinite BPCs a while ago, they can do the same with BPOs.

[ajax34i]

(Invention is, and will remain, damn expensive).

Why should it remain expensive?  Keeping it expensive is Vanguard-type stupid.  I want T2 items and ships to be cheap.  I want to move on to T3.  It's been over a year.

[Yoru]

(Invention is, and will remain, damn expensive).

Why should it remain expensive?  Keeping it expensive is Vanguard-type stupid.  I want T2 items and ships to be cheap.  I want to move on to T3.  It's been over a year.

Perspective Injection: T2 has been out for slightly over two years. It was released, IIRC, 6-12 months after Eve launched.

[JoeTF]

I don't think devs are thinking about t3 right now.
Besides, bpc price is the only thing that stops people from abandining all that t1 crap and mass moving to to t2. In the past it was skill requirements and material cost, now it's purely bpc/bpo limited.

[Endie]

Looks like CCP is already one step ahead of the game on the problem of BPO dominance.  From Eve-Tribune:

Interfaces will be tweaked again for a suitable drop rate, and some types of new gear will be inventible. All of the existing BPOs will remain so for some time, until after a few months when Invention stabilizes, they’ll be converted into long-run BPCs instead.

[Simond]

Oh dear, such a shame.

The poor, poor T2 monopolists world must be ending - what with that and the recent 'Ebay is bad also don't scam T2 BPOs' devblog.

[tkinnun0]

[The poor, poor T2 monopolists world must be ending - what with that and the recent 'Ebay is bad also don't scam T2 BPOs' devblog.

Oh, don't say such things and then not provide a link.

[Endie]

[The poor, poor T2 monopolists world must be ending - what with that and the recent 'Ebay is bad also don't scam T2 BPOs' devblog.

Oh, don't say such things and then not provide a link.

I'm guessing Simond meant this?

EVE is intended to be a level playground where people either make it or not based solely on their abilities and hard work INSIDE EVE, not outside of it. It should not matter whether you are a rich man or a poor man in the real world.

He forgot to say "except if you use your real-world cash to buy gametime codes, which you can then sell for hundreds of millions of ISK.  CCP will fully support your doing so and provide backup if anything goes wrong.

Unlike people like Lum, I really don't care about RMT.  But it is gob-smackingly hypocritical of CCP to say that RMT is teh evul except if they are the seller.

[Yegolev]

Is this unlike other blogs on fairness?

Debating on putting double-quotes around "fairness".  Oh, hey... I did it.

[Yoru]

The difference between straight sales and GTCs is that the demand for GTCs is theoretically finite - it's unlikely that more GTCs per month would be sold than there are players in the game, and now that the only sanctioned way to trade GTCs automatically applies it to your account, GTC re-traders are at a significant disadvantage.

[JoeTF]

Actually, the whole GTC thing is pure maestry on CCP side. Probably the best idea they had and will have, ever.

Not only all the real cash goes to CCP now, but with the new GTC trading system they plunged last route you could get real money out of the game. They totally killed, just wiped out RMT from EVE.
No sane person will ever risk and bother buying ISKs or characters on ebay/IGE, when they can buy GTC for $ and instantly sell it for ISK with just 5 mouse clicks, 100% scam free. Since ISK seller never gets see the code, reason to sell more than 160M/month. Which makes botting pointless.
In fact it makes botting pointless not only for ISK seller, but also for buyer. Why waste cash on software and risk getting banned, when you can buy ISKs so easily and safely with full CCP blessing?

That GTC thing, pure genius, I say. If only they had such brilliant ideas when it came to PvP or server load balancing...

[tkinnun0]

Soooo, why hasn't it killed ebaying? Why is that dev lamenting about macro-miners and Chinese RMT operations?

[JoeTF]

And why he didn't mention GTC once in entire blog?;-)
The guy is hammering the final nail into RMT coffin.
Ebaying is already dead - "eve online isk" query returns 26 results instead of around 1500 there was a month a go.

[Endie]

Soooo, why hasn't it killed ebaying? Why is that dev lamenting about macro-miners and Chinese RMT operations?

Because there is still market inefficiency, and both IGE and eBay undercut the safer route, discounting for risk, while most RMT transactions have no chance of being caught.  Plus, the SE-Asian farmer prices their time lower than the westerner buying timecards with ISK.  If you want to arbitrage it, I think you can save money on Eve subs by buying RMT ISK and using it to buy gamecards.

[Yoru]

Soooo, why hasn't it killed ebaying? Why is that dev lamenting about macro-miners and Chinese RMT operations?

Because the new GTC system has been in place for less than a week and, as stated above, is already having a demonstrable impact?

Also, GTCs are a good way to save a few bucks if you're in certain countries. I believe a 30-day GTC is 13 euros whereas a sub is 15. I think.

[Morat20]

Soooo, why hasn't it killed ebaying? Why is that dev lamenting about macro-miners and Chinese RMT operations?

Because the new GTC system has been in place for less than a week and, as stated above, is already having a demonstrable impact?

Also, GTCs are a good way to save a few bucks if you're in certain countries. I believe a 30-day GTC is 13 euros whereas a sub is 15. I think.

GTC system will win -- if for no other reason than it's safe. It's a better system than farmers, for damn sure -- especially for EVE. A lot of people can easily play EVE "For free" with the ISK they make ratting in 0.0 (I suspect a number of players are rich enough to purchase a LOT of GTCs without even budging their bottom line) and it allows newbs a way up. Heck, even I'm considering purchasing ISK that way, and it's not something I've ever considered before.

[JoeTF]

Soooo, why hasn't it killed ebaying? Why is that dev lamenting about macro-miners and Chinese RMT operations?

Because there is still market inefficiency, and both IGE and eBay undercut the safer route, discounting for risk, while most RMT transactions have no chance of being caught.  Plus, the SE-Asian farmer prices their time lower than the westerner buying timecards with ISK.  If you want to arbitrage it, I think you can save money on Eve subs by buying RMT ISK and using it to buy gamecards.

EXcept that you're wrong. IGE is more expansive than GTCs and there are whole two RMT auctions on entire ebay.

[Endie]

EXcept that you're wrong. IGE is more expansive than GTCs and there are whole two RMT auctions on entire ebay.

I prefer top think of myself less as ignorant and more as innocent.  :-D

[MahrinSkel]

I financed my first in-game business venture (T2 resale) with 2 90-Day GTC's, which back then got me 540M for US$90 (now they'd be worth about 800-900M).  Since then, I've been buying GTC's for isk for both accounts, so I'm up about $360.  Even back then, GTC's for isk was about twice as efficient as buying the isk directly, and IGE wouldn't actually buy or sell isk even though they had a section for it on their site.  Most serious 0.0 players have at least 1 extra account, generally paid for by isk.  I know one guy who has 4, all of them paid for with ISK, but he's also got 4 or 5 T2 BPO's.

--Dave