Civ 4 - Fall from Heaven 2 (version .41N) and more - Updated 6/3/2010

[Sky]

Three turns to swap civics from aristograrian to my military-religious government. I wanted to do it just before I pumped out my shaman, as they'll get an additional 4xp at creation, but I also then had to wait 3 turns + 2 for build time...and the turn I come out of anarchy, Auric (who after I snubbed his vassalage went to be Logos's vassal) cast Stasis. Sonofa. Last night session was anarchy + stasis

Stomping the last bits of uncivilized lands with my stoneskin ogres to get them leveled up for fighting Basium when it inevitably happens.

[Khaldun]

Basium is really insanely difficult to deal with. I'm playing the Sidar and the elves summoned him. We were all friendly and shit but they were in my way so I tried to see if I could shove them aside. Angels of Death all over my cities: time to go back to the last save.

[Sky]

It's inevitable. Auric might be safe for a while longer due to being Elohim's vassal, but all the other evil civs are on the other side of me, so he's likely to come after me. I rule the seas with my privateers, I launch them incessantly if the opportunity arises. Not only can you smack down other players until they get their naval shit together, but you can blockade like a mofo and after you get a decent amount of blockades going it adds up. Especially handy when that bastard Auric casts Stasis  

Gosam will probably trigger it, though, he's mighty pissed at me and has been for most of the game. Just about everyone is at least annoyed with me. Between my upgraded stoneskin ogres, Hemah (who is turning into a badass with summoner upgrades plus death and fire lines) and the shaman I'll be building at the end of the stasis, I should be in decent shape. I was also ramping up war stack production with ogres and catapults, and soon some cultists. Pretty close to the start of the end game.

One thing I'm wondering - how to see invisible units (since you mention the AoD)? I had a bunch of mistforms that were smacking down an expansion island pretty hard until I suckered them into attacking Hemah's spectres. Couldn't see them with anything I had, though.

[Typhon]

Don't you have hunter/scout units?

[Sky]

Yep, had lizardmen scouring the island, escorting workers, etc.

Finally got out of Stasis last night  

edit: RTFM helps:

There are two classes of invisibility in FfH2. The most common are Invisible Animals, which most Recon units are able to see, but all others are unable to. Much harder to see are Invisible Land or Hidden units. Shadows and some other exceptionally gifted individuals are only able to be seen by a few very talented individuals, or with the aid of powerful magics.

[Teleku]

Wow, I started playing that Orbis mod.  The new stuff is really nice!  I really like playing the Scions of Patria, its a very different way to play, and I love all the lore that comes with it.  Not sure if I've really figured out how to be totally effective with them yet, but I like the mechanics.  Anybody have some good suggestions on how to actually raise the damn population quickly?  Still trying to figure out the best way to raise the Awakened spawn rate fast.

[Typhon]

Yep, had lizardmen scouring the island, escorting workers, etc.

Finally got out of Stasis last night  

edit: RTFM helps:

There are two classes of invisibility in FfH2. The most common are Invisible Animals, which most Recon units are able to see, but all others are unable to. Much harder to see are Invisible Land or Hidden units. Shadows and some other exceptionally gifted individuals are only able to be seen by a few very talented individuals, or with the aid of powerful magics.

I didn't know that.  Shadows seems more worthwhile now, nice.

[Sky]

Quick session last night - got my shamans pumped out, did some exploration with my stoneskin ogres to level them up a bit. Got a couple magic items for the ogres and one was possessed by a demon (random rage + demon promotion), so I'll just plop him behind enemy lines and let him cause havoc, he's raging across a barbarian isle right now.

Nice to get shamans that automatically jump to level 5 mages with 1 free tier of body (vassal mana) and full free tiers of fire and death. Let me upgrade their strength and summoning skills without having to buy any spells. I'll turn 4 into liches and have 4 as archmages, then start rolling.

[Cheddar]

The future of Fall from Heaven

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The next game in the Fall from Heaven series is currently in production as a stand alone game.

Watch this space for further news.

Sweet.  Gonna try Lums Mod Advice.  Also updating title/original post since we are now up to patch "M".

edit.  First post updated, includng links to the mod Lum wubs and Kaels announcement from today,

[Merusk]

Very nice.  He'll have to make some changes (Goodbye, Gybrush!) but it'll be nice to see it as a standalone and see what other tweaks he can make unchained from the CIVs engine. 

[Sky]

Tough to jump from modder to dev, but I hope he does it. That one guy has been responsible for more gaming hours in my house than every other developer, maybe even combined, in the last few years.

I just hope he sticks to TBS. Any developer in the TBS arena should hire Kael ASAP, before he makes a great indie game and starts his own Firaxis.

[Typhon]

I have to buy whatever he releases just to pay for all the hours I spent playing FFH2.

[Ingmar]

Hey maybe all the totally derivative/stolen stuff will disappear, along with the typos!  

EDIT: Eh I guess I don't care so much about derivative, but the 'borrowed' art combined with the horrible spelling just stops me from enjoying this mod at all, honestly.

[Stormwaltz]

the 'borrowed' art

But I had a great laugh when I realized that at least two leader portraits were LotRO concept art.

[Teleku]

EDIT: Eh I guess I don't care so much about derivative, but the 'borrowed' art combined with the horrible spelling just stops me from enjoying this mod at all, honestly.

...... Really?  SERIOUSLY?

[Ingmar]

Yes, really. I have a pretty low tolerance for fan-fic-y bullshit in mods, too, so all that stuff in the 'story' missions didn't help, add on that it was full of grammatical and spelling errors, the art was all 'borrowed', and there were enough characters lifted from other works to make Blizzard blush, and it just adds up to a package I can't enjoy. The gameplay was fine, but not amazing or anything in the way I was led to believe it would be by this thread - in order for me to get past all that other stuff it would need to be awesome and special in the way that, say, Mount & Blade is. As it is I'd much rather play vanilla Civ 4.

[Aez]

Yes, really. I have a pretty low tolerance for fan-fic-y bullshit in mods, too, so all that stuff in the 'story' missions didn't help, add on that it was full of grammatical and spelling errors, the art was all 'borrowed', and there were enough characters lifted from other works to make Blizzard blush, and it just adds up to a package I can't enjoy. The gameplay was fine, but not amazing or anything in the way I was led to believe it would be by this thread - in order for me to get past all that other stuff it would need to be awesome and special in the way that, say, Mount & Blade is. As it is I'd much rather play vanilla Civ 4.

I feel the same.  I'm hoping  Elemental: War of Magic will be a better game.

[Murgos]

Yes, really. I have a pretty low tolerance for fan-fic-y bullshit in mods, too, so all that stuff in the 'story' missions didn't help, add on that it was full of grammatical and spelling errors, the art was all 'borrowed', and there were enough characters lifted from other works to make Blizzard blush, and it just adds up to a package I can't enjoy. The gameplay was fine, but not amazing or anything in the way I was led to believe it would be by this thread - in order for me to get past all that other stuff it would need to be awesome and special in the way that, say, Mount & Blade is. As it is I'd much rather play vanilla Civ 4.

I feel the same.  I'm hoping  Elemental: War of Magic will be a better game.

Uh, Elemental: War of Magic is being made by Stardock with an experienced team that has shipped several successful titles (GalCiv I & II, Sins of a Solar Empire, Demigod).  It's not even remotely the same league as a 'mod' as far as resources to devote to art assets, polish and story.

A budget of (probably) millions vs. what ever you can get done in your spare time.  And also something that will cost 60 bones vs didn't cost you a dime to play.

I guess what I am saying is that I totally don't get the comparison, it's like someone saying "Man, built in your garage airplanes sure are flimsy." and someone else responding with, "I hope F22's are better".

[rk47]

Too true. The upcoming xcom installment will blow all the tactical competition out of the water.

[amiable]

I guess what I am saying is that I totally don't get the comparison, it's like someone saying "Man, built in your garage airplanes sure are flimsy." and someone else responding with, "I hope F22's are better".

More like "Man those labels you made for your homebrew beer look totally cheap, that's why I only drink Miller light!"

[Sky]

As it is I'd much rather play vanilla Civ 4.

Remember that time that one generic civ was in a desperate fight against another completely forgettable generic civ? Against a modder who made things like an army of fire-throwing golems that might attack you with their allies, the insane clowns and naval overlords. Sure, it might be a bit fan-ficy, but vanilla civ is really vanilla after you've played it. I could see if it had some event system like Europa Universalis to give it flavor...but it doesn't.

I realize I'm a resident fanboy of the mod, but what other fantasy builder tbs game has been released lately? Last good one I played was Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic. And there is so much more depth to FFH2.

[Ingmar]

Sure, Civ 4 isn't Alpha Centauri, but it still resonates with me more when I get nuked by Gandhi than when forgettable-character-from-some-dude's-D&D-homebrew-with-a-picture-stolen-from-Icewind-Dale does something annoying. There are some nice gameplay ideas in the mod, I won't deny it, but they're surrounded by too much garbage to put up with (for me).

EDIT: This little derail went on too long probably, continue enjoying the mod.

[Aez]

A budget of (probably) millions vs. what ever you can get done in your spare time.  And also something that will cost 60 bones vs didn't cost you a dime to play.

I guess what I am saying is that I totally don't get the comparison, it's like someone saying "Man, built in your garage airplanes sure are flimsy." and someone else responding with, "I hope F22's are better".

I was not really comparing them.  I was responding to Ingmar's post about FFH2 lack of polish.  My point was: Elemental has similar gameplay (I hope) but much better polish. Ingmar and me are interested by FFH2 gameplay but are having trouble with the lack of polish.  For us, Elemental will probably solve the problem.  It as nothing to do with development budget or price.

[Tebonas]

From what I see form Elemental in this early beta phase right now, it will be sufficiently different from Fall From Heaven 2 that there is little overlap.

I think the home brew beer analogy is quite apt. Art assets are expensive, and while I'm astonished what they managed to do without a budget, I certainly hope there is an improvement if they become commercial.

I am, of course, a lore bitch and therefore don't have the same problems because I read everything relating to that lore over days. But I see shades of that happening in Orbis. It has good improvements, but the new elements are somewhat grating. I guess the whole FFH experience would be the same for people not acquainted with the lore.

[Typhon]

I don't want to beat up on people for having a different opinion, but expecting a mod to have great artwork and polish seems like a recipe for disappointment.  The most I would expect from any mod would be that they have some interesting/new ideas.  That, to me, makes the mod worth the price of admission (which is a download and install... which is free apart from the time it takes).  So, given that you said you thought there were good ideas, to then say, "it lacks polish" seems uncharitable.

[Aez]

Fair enough. It all depends on your own reality.  I don't have a lot of time for games these days so I don't evaluate them on price/value.  To me, the decision is simply: I have 5 hours this weekend, which game do I play?  FFH2 doesn't make it because it lacks polish.  The gameplay is intresting, I would gladly pay 60$ for a more polished version.  The same thing could be said about Dwarf Fortress.

[Ingmar]

I don't want to beat up on people for having a different opinion, but expecting a mod to have great artwork and polish seems like a recipe for disappointment.  The most I would expect from any mod would be that they have some interesting/new ideas.  That, to me, makes the mod worth the price of admission (which is a download and install... which is free apart from the time it takes).  So, given that you said you thought there were good ideas, to then say, "it lacks polish" seems uncharitable.

Let me clarify it a little then.

1) I don't think expecting proper spelling and grammar from a mod or a game really falls under the category of expecting polish. It falls under the category of expecting a little minimal effort beyond 'run spell checker'. I'll make exceptions for mods or games made by non-native speakers of course (although frankly King's Bounty is testing the limits of my patience), but this isn't one of those.

2) In a vacuum, yes, some new/interesting ideas is plenty to make a mod worth installing, and when you're talking about that sort of thing I can get past the hangups I have with FFH - the Native mod for Mount & Blade would be a good example. The dumb story stuff was mostly a toggle you could turn off (bye bye dark knight invasion) and while it drove me crazy that they thought it would be a good idea to rename one of the NPCs to "Aragorn" it wasn't in my face all the time, and the gameplay tweaks were worthwhile. This is more of a total conversion than a mod, though, and when you get to that point I think the bar goes up. Be original with your names and places and if you can't write well, don't dress up your story missions with so much story text. Take a page from HOMM3 and just use a fairly minimal dialogue box here and there to give me the little story I need to actually play, don't throw me a multi-page story about your Mary Sue sea captain saving some girl from being raped.

3) As far as art goes, the art doesn't have to be anything special, but I find it jarring to see a piece of art I know from somewhere else shoved into a context I know it has nothing to do with. There are roughly a billion people on deviantart who would be willing to throw some leader portraits together for free just for a chance at some exposure, too.

[Lum]

I don't think expecting proper spelling and grammar from a mod or a game really falls under the category of expecting polish. It falls under the category of expecting a little minimal effort beyond 'run spell checker'. I'll make exceptions for mods or games made by non-native speakers of course (although frankly King's Bounty is testing the limits of my patience), but this isn't one of those.

Many of the writers on FfH are non-native English speakers. It's pretty obvious a lot of the scenarios were penned by one of them. They could desperately use an editor, but, well, hobbyist project.

In any event the scenarios are only a small part of the overall mod, and the main mod is free of Russian-mangled English and Mary Sue Lanun heroes.

[Ingmar]

Fair enough, I assumed the main guy was also the main writer.

[Sky]

Oh, shit. Don't bother with the scenarios :)

The borrowed art doesn't bug me, because I don't know the original sources of most of it, and it fits the setting. I was chuckling last night about the "some dude's d&d homebrew" when I started reading the first Malazan book, or when I was considering the new Feist novel (both authors inspired by their d&d campaign settings). Not saying Kael is a Erikson or Feist (err hell no), but discounting the game because of its roots is a bit silly, since it's one of the best fantasy strategy games ever made.

Once you get a feel for the different civs and their playstyles, it really does become compelling when that asshole Varn Gosam and his bastard paladins encroach on your civlized orc society of polite tea drinkers and bone crunchers. I hope you give it some more time, Ingmar. I was frankly surprised you didn't like it, given our tastes in gaming run somewhat similar.

At least I got a heads-up on Elemental out of it, even though that game looks more like a civ/homam hybrid (which is AOK). I really wish they'd make another Age of Wonders, with the depth and variety of FFH2. Then again, I'd like to see FFH2 add the trading sim of the Anno games, but I'm wishy like that.

[Cheddar]

Orbis is currently sucking up all my MMO time.  Lum, thanks for pointing it out!

Its pretty genius and has a shitton of paths to take.  Once I got over the "OMG HOW CAN I PLAN AHEAD" aspect and went with the flow I began to seriously enjoy myself.

[CmdrSlack]

I just wish I could figure out how to run the Mechanos civ.

A steampunk civ is right up my alley, but I have struggled to find a working model. I guess I need to explore the tech tree more and figure out the optimal path to steam powered awesome and guns.

[Sky]

Once I got over the "OMG HOW CAN I PLAN AHEAD" aspect and went with the flow I began to seriously enjoy myself.

That's how I got going with FFH2, just tried to kind of rp the research paths until I hit the 'oh shit' moments (like finding fireballing workers for luchuirp or something).

I totally forgot that fireballs have fire affinity (duh), I've been so focused on death mana for my awesome lich/archmage summoners (and Hemah the double summoner) that I've not really cast fireball. I got the unique feature that gives fire mana, I figured it was appropriate to burninate the barbarians guarding it when I noticed my fireballs were suddenly 1 stronger. So now my death affinity is at +6 and fire at +5, and I just captured two new nodes, muhahaha.

Also had a couple cultists that have been around forever doing the Inquisition, with some decent priest upgrades (religion was tertiary in my research path); upgraded them to Eidolons that  really enhance my stacks of doom. My stoneskin ogres are getting ridiculously high level. I normally don't play this militarily, so it's wild to have such a massive and powerful army (and navy, I've basically shut down the oceans). All over but the final showdown, pretty much.

[Lum]

I just wish I could figure out how to run the Mechanos civ.

A steampunk civ is right up my alley, but I have struggled to find a working model. I guess I need to explore the tech tree more and figure out the optimal path to steam powered awesome and guns.

It's actually easier than most civs, simply because quite a bit has been removed (and replaced with OMG guns).

Most of the arcane techs (the mana types, the mage promoters) are useless since you can't use mages. Most of the divine techs are useless since you only have techpriests. So your tech tree climb is going to be pretty focused on economics, which is good, because you also get tools to make your cities monsters.

You're weakest in the early game (you know, before you get the guns). You DO get free iron from the start of the game, so if you start right next door to a hostile civ a warrior rush is actually pretty doable. However you're probably going to want to turtle up and tech up. Your key tech is Steam Power - this allows you to have your tech priests get Refined Mana from nodes. Each Refined Mana node you have hooked up gives you a research bonus, and they also power your factories, which are far better then other civ's forges.

Mid game you should have -

* Boris, who isn't a hero (no free XP) but is immortal (he's Frankenstein, just give him some power and he's good to go), so if you keep throwing him into battle he'll be a pretty good 'hero' unit
* Feris, who IS a hero. Both a pretty decent ranged unit AND an assassin, so she's always useful in sieges.
* Airships - not only can they transport units, they can also bomb.
* Handgunners - Longbow replacement, better in every way (and cheaper, I think)

Late game, you unlock -

* Goliath, the mecha. WHIRRRR KILL
* Flamethrowers, replacement for phalanxes, better in every way (they do MASSIVE collateral damage and tear cities up)
* Gunships, your champions that can fly
* Howitzers, the ultimate ranged unit which will tear up cities even more than flamethowers

Generally you want to wait until late game because that's when all the toys open up - however if you concentrate on economics you can fight off most enemies by spamming mid-tier units faster than your enemy can kill them thanks to all your cities being production powerhouses.


Ironically, you are weaker in the end-game than most other civs, because you only have one holy-crap unit (Goliath, who isn't THAT great), no archmages, no high priests, no druids... basically you'll be spamming howitzers and gunships to support your death-stack of Goliath, Feris, Boris and supporting adeptuses. Not really fantastic but it gets the job done.

[CmdrSlack]

Thanks, Lum!

I'm just now finishing up a playthrough with the Amurites. I managed to end up isolated on an island -- so now I'm in the last few turns remaining phase and am just now trying to unleash a jillion mages, chanters, and spell-casting melee units on another dug-in civ.

This sounds like a good second game...only 80 turns to go!