Big Gulp joins the Anybody But Bush crowd

[Big Gulp]

Read it and weep.

As a member of the military I understand that my job is inherently dangerous.  So long as my service and my life won't be pissed away I'm quite content to accept that fact.  After hearing this, though, Bush has used up all of the free passes I had saved up for him.  He's now officially no better than fucking LBJ at this point, and as much as I despise Kerry I've got to at least trust that he isn't going to just piss away the lives of the people I serve with on operations that he has no intention of carrying all the way through.

This is now twice we've let Sadr wriggle away, making the deaths of those attempting to bring him in meaningless.  If you're not going to prosecute a war to win you don't start the fucking war in the first place.  Sorry Dubya, I've been a cheerleader long enough, you actually had to work to lose my vote.  Congrats, you've succeeded.

[Nosartur]

You know BG I am fast heading that way although I will not cast a vote for Kerry, ughh, I will just not punch that line on the ballot.  The Libs are starting to sound right about Iraq being another Vietnam but not for the reasons they think.  It is fast becoming another Vietnam because the F'ing Pols won't let the military fight to win.  So might as well let Kerry win get the f' out in 6 months and let Iraq go the way it is going to go anyway since we are not allowed to win.  

Let the ME have their 'victory" pull every mother loving unit back to the US except for what we need to protect Tiawan and Australia, the last two countries worth saving, develop fuel cells and alternate energy and tell the ME to go fuck themselves and all their oil.

[Shockeye]

Do you suffer from Sudden Bush Hatred Fatigue Syndrome?

[HaemishM]

As the major spoke, a junior officer plotted reports of fresh incidents on an oversized plasma video screen. Pizzitola sent rueful word to a patrol that had spotted a machine gun nest that it could not fire on it until it fired on them.

Yeah, this kind of shit should NOT happen. Period. You do not put troops in harm's way without the ability to take out known hostiles. It's bad business.

The Iraqi government gave us the go-ahead to hit the shrine. So we pussyfoot around instead. Screw that.

[Big Gulp]

Do you suffer from Sudden Bush Hatred Fatigue Syndrome?

You've got the wrong cat.  I'm a conservative through and through.  I despise, loathe, hate every fiber of Kerry's being.  However, you've heard people say that this election is a referendum on the President, right?  Well, he hasn't earned a second term in my opinion.

This is just the straw that broke the camel's back.  Our capitulation with regards to Fallujah and now this two-time backing down to a small time thug like Sadr have hurt us more than Spain or the Phillipines pussying out ever could.  Were I Blair or Howard I'd be pulling my troops out as we speak, considering that the head of the alliance has just shown that he's not willing to do what it takes to win the war.  Bush has put those guys in Iraq and Afghanistan in more danger, not less, by pulling this bullshit.

I have no doubts that Kerry's a UN stooge and a pussy, however Bush has done nothing to earn my vote.  Either I'll ignore the polls this year or I'll be casting my first vote ever for a Democratic candidate as a protest.

[daveNYC]

Let the ME have their 'victory" pull every mother loving unit back to the US except for what we need to protect Tiawan and Australia, the last two countries worth saving, develop fuel cells and alternate energy and tell the ME to go fuck themselves and all their oil.

Australia doesn't need saving and Tiawan is a write off if China ever decides that they want it back, otherwise I agree with you.

[Shockeye]

You've got the wrong cat.  I'm a conservative through and through.  I despise, loathe, hate every fiber of Kerry's being.  However, you've heard people say that this election is a referendum on the President, right?  Well, he hasn't earned a second term in my opinion.

I just thought it was a funny column. Anyways... my feelings are pretty much the same as yours but with the added bonus of hating the scumbag lawyer who Kerry is running with that used junk science in court to become a multi-millionaire. I cannot and will not vote for Kerry but I can't vote for Bush either based on the last 4 years. I would vote Libertarian but I just don't know if I can waste a vote when I feel the President doesn't deserve to be re-elected.

[Abagadro]

For my money, Fred Kaplan is one of the better authors on these issues. If you don't read him, I would suggest that you check him out.  Don't just dismiss him because he writes for slate.com. I think his stuff is pretty even-handed.

[Shockeye]

I think I know what Bush needs to make all his problems go away. A sex witch.

[Paelos]

I don't even care about it anymore, just put me in the polls and I'll make a snap judgement between the Bush and hanging myself.

[Comstar]

If you don't want Bush to have a 2nd term, and you won't vote for the only alterantive, I hope you hope Bush dosn't win anyway.

Anyways, I agree about the topic in hand. Either they go in and get Al Sadr, or they don't. They can't go around hoping a Marine Sniper will get lucky and get the guy and miss destroying one of the Holiest places in the world in the process.

This entire stop-start-do a truce-start-stop-cease fire-fire artiallry into a city full of civilans-stop firing-pull back-start again is not the right way to fight a counter-insurgency.

[Murgos]

This entire stop-start-do a truce-start-stop-cease fire-fire artiallry into a city full of civilans-stop firing-pull back-start again is not the right way to fight a counter-insurgency.

Yeah, that what it says in Comstar's "Tactics and Techniques: How to fight Insurgents Vol III, Professional Edition - Special Focus on Middle Eastern Insurgancy Issues".

It is THE training manual for most of the worlds better military forces.

[Comstar]

What, you think this campgain againast Al-sadr is going to be studied in the future on why it was a succeful counter-insergency?  Currenty he's far more powerful than he was when he was originally attacked months ago.

The whole bit about releasing propoganda saying he was dead just added to the hilerty.

I don't think he can *win*, but he can make so it the american's don't win either, and in the case, Bush loses.

[Murgos]

What, you think this campgain againast Al-sadr is going to be studied in the future on why it was a succeful counter-insergency?  Currenty he's far more powerful than he was when he was originally attacked months ago.

The whole bit about releasing propoganda saying he was dead just added to the hilerty.

I don't think he can *win*, but he can make so it the american's don't win either, and in the case, Bush loses.

No, I just don't think you have the knowledge or ability to make accurate statements on how to conduct mobile operation in urban terrain and and how to conduct counter insurgency operations.

You said "Thats not the right way" as though YOU knew the right way.  I've at least trained for and conducted said operations over the period of most of a year in a hostile country and I woundn't claim to have the knowledge your so ready with.

[Mediocre]

I just thought it was a funny column. Anyways... my feelings are pretty much the same as yours but with the added bonus of hating the scumbag lawyer who Kerry is running with that used junk science in court to become a multi-millionaire. I cannot and will not vote for Kerry but I can't vote for Bush either based on the last 4 years. I would vote Libertarian but I just don't know if I can waste a vote when I feel the President doesn't deserve to be re-elected.

Used junk science in court?  You mean, "got money for a little girl who had her innards sucked out by a hot-tub"?

The fact that Edwards has probably done a case or two where the argument he was supporting was specious is rather irrelevant to his fitness to serve.

Not to mention that the column you linked to completely misrepresented all sorts of issues, the latest of which being the idea that Kerry said he'll fight a "more sensitive" war on terror.


Edit:  Does this qualify as a flip-flop?  And yeah, I'm bitter.  But I feel really badly for the soldiers that were killed or wounded and their families; to see someone play politics with your life and your work must cut deep.

[jpark]

You said "Thats not the right way" as though YOU knew the right way.  I've at least trained for and conducted said operations over the period of most of a year in a hostile country and I woundn't claim to have the knowledge your so ready with.

I have no experience with the military - just putting my ignorance up front.  But these events of the past 12 months truely make me think I have genius.  I must be right?  I mean, apparently I was the only one that saw:

1.  An operation with ill defined objectives that at best required searching the whole country.
2.  An civilian / combatant distinction problem that will make Vietnam look like a name tag run convention identifying "good" guys and "bad" guys.
3.  A region that loathes the West, the US in particular, and in this context it was planned to have prolonged occupation of a prominent Arab country in the heart of the Middle East.

I am amazed Saddam was captured - I am wrong about that.  But in the end it made no difference - it was the big hope that he somehow was a source for this "insurgency".

Okay guys flame me - I know I risk it here - but I guess I must be missing something.  Points 1-3 came from Vietnam in what I understood to be future caution on subsequent US foreign policy endeavors.  Wisely avoided in the Gulf War for example, and violated on every level in the current one.

The British newspaper the Guardian summed it up best a few months ago:  "Iraq never was a hotbed of Terrorist activity - but it is now."  Bored?  Got a score to settle with the US?  Pop over to Iraq and cause some trouble.
 
Enlighten me. Honestly.  How could anyone not bound to public office of the current administration not see this as a pre-ordained disaster?

[Mediocre]

I'm a card carrying liberal, but I don't think you can compare it to Vietnam "outright".  I mean, the difference in terrain, the masses of technology we've developed since then that are useful for counter-insurgency work, the fact that we're not facing the same sort of military might (irregular forces wise) that we did in Vietnam...

It's not nearly the hopeless situation that Vietnam was -- and even the Vietnam war, giant fuckup that it was, might have been winnable if the Tet offensive hadn't so demoralized the US populace.

[Murgos]

Enlighten me. Honestly.  How could anyone not bound to public office of the current administration not see this as a pre-ordained disaster?

When the American death toll breaks 1000 a month I'll let you know that it's getting close to 'disaster'.

At the moment what I mostly see with my practiced eye is a region of the world getting rapidly depleated of its most extreme hotheads in a rapid and satisfactory matter.  Maybe your missing the forest because there is a tree in your way but a large portion of Iraq has been quite docile for several months now.

Could or should more ground troops have been used initially?  Yes, I think so.  Could and should more troops be used now?  Probably.  Could the troops on the ground benefit from a stiffer resolve in the white house?  Certainly.  Is the whole thing a crumbling mess?  Only if your blind.

As far as occupation of openly hostile terrirtory goes I would call the occupation of Iraq one of the great military success stories of all time.  Hell, the Germans had more problems from the French resistance than we're having in Iraq.

[naum]

Enlighten me. Honestly.  How could anyone not bound to public office of the current administration not see this as a pre-ordained disaster?

When the American death toll breaks 1000 a month I'll let you know that it's getting close to 'disaster'.

At the moment what I mostly see with my practiced eye is a region of the world getting rapidly depleated of its most extreme hotheads in a rapid and satisfactory matter.  Maybe your missing the forest because there is a tree in your way but a large portion of Iraq has been quite docile for several months now.

At least half-dozen killed and/or wounded a day of late, a pace that tallies out to 2-3K per year.

And the roads arn't any safer and kidnappings are commonplace now.

[Arcadian Del Sol]

The Iraqi government gave us the go-ahead to hit the shrine. So we pussyfoot around instead. Screw that.

Generations to come after us will appreciate the care being taken. In all the reckless skirmishes in modern history, we have lost so much of our ancient history. Carpet bombing the mosque to ferret out this guy would be like napalming The Holy See because some terrorists were hiding inside, and would be as obvious a blight on the history of our time as the nose (not on) the Sphinx's face.

[Arcadian Del Sol]

At least half-dozen killed and/or wounded a day of late, a pace that tallies out to 2-3K per year.

This statistic has no drama unless you can compare it to say, nationwide traffic deaths involving alcohol, or some similar domestic statistic.

[personman]

The GOP leadership got caught flatfooted by the Bush election team the first time around.  Despite the inner factioning they lack the will to put someone else on the ticket more palatable to their own membership.  The current "strategy" seems to be relying on core Republican voters to prefer the GOP party ticket over this specific team; I'm cynical and jaded enough to think they're right.

I'm consistently astonished at this team's grasp (rather mastery) of tactics, whether it's spinning their policies or maintaining their power.  I must respect them for this.

I'm intrigued by Spinsanity's "All the President's Spin" - it sounds like a compelling dissection of the tactics used.  I suspect it'll be used as a playbook by all politicans from here on out.

[Murgos]

At least half-dozen killed and/or wounded a day of late, a pace that tallies out to 2-3K per year.

6 killed and 8 wounded in 7 days != 6 a day.  You have to flat out lie and hope I don't look to try and make a point now?

As I said before, except for a certain area in Iraq, most of the country is pretty docile.  It's disgusting that you think we should throw in the towel and condemn Iraq to anarchy because of light resistance.

[HaemishM]

I don't see anyone in this thread suggesting we throw in the towel and leave it to some terrorist to wrap around his head. Even John Kerry isn't saying we should pull out of Iraq immediately; at worst, he's said we should never have been there in the first place.

All we're fucking asking for is that our leaders NOT MAKE THE SAME GODDAMN MISTAKES.

Beirut 1982 - No clear cut orders were given as to who could be considered combatants and who couldn't. Guards at the US Embassy weren't even issued fucking ammunition. As a result, we lot over 200 men to one raghead in a fucking pickup truck. And Lebanon is still a cluster fuck today.

Somalia 1992 - No clear cut orders were given as to who could be fired on. We lost more men than we should have to a bunch of fucking savages with guns they couldn't even service.

Vietnam - Need I draw the correlation?

You don't fight a war to fuck about. Soldiers aren't trained well to deal with ambuiguities, especially when they are being shot at. You do not start an operation to "remove the insurgents" then stop it, not allowing troops to take out CLEAR-CUT ENEMIES. Political solutions to problems like this are good, but Sadr has continually shown himself unwilling to follow them. Fuck Sadr, burn him the fuck down.

As for going into the shrine, you don't have to shell the piss out of the place to effectively take out the opposition within. These are not highly-trained troops, these are civilian militants. Get the Iraqi government's approval and take them out. The loss of life it would require to take them out without blowing the shit out of the shrine would be less than the eventual toll we'll take if the insurgency continues.