LOTRO NDA has been lifted.

[Falconeer]

Well, as opposed to Margalis, I'll go with saying that LoTRO is one step better than WoW.
Of course, it's about 40 million dollars less polished, and 30 months content short, but overall it's a better game to me and a more interesting-refreshing (for a diku) experience.

As for the first 30 minutes in a game:

- My first 30 minutes in WoW: Go kill 10 rats. Autoattack, spam your special. Turn in quest. Ding.

- My first 30 minutes in LoTRO: Storyline. Go kill 10 rats. Autoattack, spam your special. Turn in quest. Ding. Storyline.

[Ironwood]

Sounds like a weak as hell rationalisation for the new shiny to me.

[Azazel]

I am torn on this one.  We will see how things go before live is official.

And the word on the street is "Keep an eye out for Starcraft MMO announcement in the next couple months."  Just a rumor, but ya know...

Yeah, well we've all been expecting "World of Starcraft" for some time now. My main point is essentially that a Star Wars-skinned WoS with Blizzard's level of polish and such would blow their Starcraft "licence"/lore out of the water.

Well, as opposed to Margalis, I'll go with saying that LoTRO is one step better than WoW.
Of course, it's about 40 million dollars less polished, and 30 months content short, but overall it's a better game to me and a more interesting-refreshing (for a diku) experience.

As for the first 30 minutes in a game:
- My first 30 minutes in LoTRO: Storyline. Go kill 10 rats. Autoattack, spam your special. Turn in quest. Ding. Storyline.

No, you're right there, and it was cool and well done as I said before, (particularly Archet). But the thing is that storyline was something I never saw again really, once I got out into the world beyond that point. A promising start that led to a not-as-good-as-WoW rest-of-the-game-that-I-saw which was basically reskinned WoW. (Which is reskinned but tweaked EQ1, true, but its still better done nonetheless.)

Really as I've said, I'd probably play LOTRO if I wasn't already playing the better version of pretty much the exact same gameplay already. It's why I prefer Far Cry to, say, Red Faction. Except these take a lot longer than a FPS to play, so I'm far less likely to play through both.

[Falconeer]

Rationalisation?

But that's what I felt when I played it.
Apparently, I am not burn out enough with dikus if I can still play a monster like Vanguard. But back in November 2004 when EQ2 and WoW came out at the same time I tried them both thoroughfully, and I chose EQ2, as WoW seemed to me none other that a persistant 3D Diablo. Too few things to do other than whack. Too simplistic quests with bare to minimum text.

"Go kill 10 rats. Autoattack, spam your special. Turn in quest. Ding." it's not just the WoW formula, it's a lot of dikus formula, so I am not dissing WoW with that, it's just a reminder of what's the core of diku MMORPGs. It's up to developers to add stuff ON that to make me want to play a new iteration of the usual crap.
 
Enter LoTRO, which although still missing the level of details of the world of EQ2 and its great quests, puts a storyline layer on that and let me play it, something I really appreciated.

Thing is I didn't give WoW your famous "30 minutes to impress or fuck off". I played it for two months (April - may 2005, during a short EQ2 burnout), I went up to level 40. I enjoyed it. It's good. Very good for what it manages to achieve.
I just think that for what I saw of both games, LoTRO offers me way more than WoW could. And that is beside and beyond the supposed "better combat due to better visual feedback" that WoW has.

To conclude, EQ2 would still be my favourite diku ever if it wasn't for the boring combat, that is too different in a bad way from the WoW/LoTRO kind.

[pxib]

I won't buy a Starcraft MMO unless I can play a Zerg Overlord.

[Azazel]

Thing is I didn't give WoW your famous "30 minutes to impress or fuck off". I played it for two months (April - may 2005, during a short EQ2 burnout), I went up to level 40. I enjoyed it. It's good. Very good for what it manages to achieve.
I just think that for what I saw of both games, LoTRO offers me way more than WoW could. And that is beside and beyond the supposed "better combat due to better visual feedback" that WoW has.

I'm not sure what you mean by "offers you way more", since once stripped down past the graphics, both games are essentially the same thing, only with one of the two having done it better.

The 30 minutes thing isn't an overmind-like thing from all other posters on this board, I think it's actually something that several people have come to independantly, and as it happens, I'm one of them. I also apply it to single-player games though (see my posts regarding Wii software), and let's face it, it's not like I try a new MMOG more often than console games or single-player PC software. Really though, I don't see why I should be willing to give a MMO more leeway to do or show me something cool than I would any other game. The genre/medium/whatever of MMO no longer provides an excuse to make me work/grind for the first "hey thats cool!" moment. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.


As I said, I played through LOTRO forseveral weeks before losing interest (and being wiped), and really, LOTOR did do something interesting in the first 30 minutes. It's failing was to put that particular Storyline carrot away all too quickly and replace it with nothing but a not-as-good iteration of WoW.

[Falconeer]

I'm not sure what you mean by "offers you way more", since once stripped down past the graphics, both games are essentially the same thing, only with one of the two having done it better.

Exactly, what's done better in WoW?
As I stated a couple of posts above, strip them down and still LoTRO offers me a more engaging world and story.
Maybe WoW offers you a more engaging leveling treadmill. Is that what are you referring to?
As I said lots of time, I can't see anything done better in WoW than LoTRO save for stuff that screams of "not in beta" (while LoTRO still is) or "we are 30 months old worth of content and fixes".
Nothing so unquestionably or dealbreakingly done better.

[Azazel]

If we take for granted that dikus are all levelling treadmills, WoW offered me faster action in combat, more visually appealing character models, (I liked the LOTOR world, as mentioned), better, more polished and integrated quests (overall, LOTOR had some nice ones too) and really, just that high quality feeling of polished and seamlessness. It plays smoother.

Look at it this way - if LOTOR was not in fact official Tolkien licenced, and instead had a more generic fantasy IP like, say, EQ or WoW, would it be as fun as it is? I believe it would be less fun visiting Hobbit_hole_042 than visiting BAG END. Less fun climbing interesting mountain with a ruined tower on top than climbing WEATHERTOP.

LOTRO benefits a lot because of these things, enough that those points in the game where you visit a place like that is more fun. Otherwise you would just be visiting "The Combine Ruins" (EQ) or "Durnholde Keep" (WoW) as in "looks nice, but I don't care about this place". LOTRO has those places we care about, but if you take those away the game itself is just WoW but with worse tradeskills, slower combat (less visceral), worse models, and a pretty landscape. It has some nice touches (achievements, the lowbie town being instanced), and it's a pretty well done game, but it's too similar to WoW without being better to capture my interest.

[Hound]

the three things I like about LoTRO is first I love the POI's.  I have been reading the books in a casual way since the early 70's so it was kind of neat to stick my head in Bag End and take a tour of the place, or wander around the Prancing Pony or go searching for the three stone trolls down at the Trollshaws. Add in that I can get badges and bonus traits to my character just for exploring is icing on the cake for me. Secondly Turbine has went to great lengths on the immersion. Going through Bree or the Shire it feels alive. Compared to the wooden NPC's and deserted looking towns in some other games it is pretty amazing in and of itself. One of things that really turned me off about Vanguard was that I never felt part of the world, NPC's were pretty bland during beta, that might be changing now but still. All things considered I find LoTRO just plain fun, it's not terribly deep, or terribly challenging but it is just plain fun to play. I can sit down for a half hour and run some solo quests, or if I have more time do one of the epic group quests and enjoy myself. The quests range from kill xx foozles to some pretty involved puzzle and find this or do that style quests.

The game is going to sell gents, like it or not. First off it is Lord of the Rings, add in the fact that it will look and run decently on Mom's off the shelf Compaq, then compound that with it being polished and pretty bug free foozle whacking fun and the bottom line is Turbine employees  will be doing a conga line around their office wearing nothing but 100 dollar bills come release day. I have decided to go ahead with the 200 lifetime thing because 200 bucks is not all that much to me and I figure over the course of the games expansions I can always use this as a fallback MMORPG. The same reason I keep Half Life II and FEAR on my hard drive. I don't play them every night anymore but when I feel like a bit of FPS they are there ready to entertain me. Like I said earlier it is not a deep game nor is it complex and difficult, but the key phrase here is it is not frustrating. There are hundreds of thousands of people who are on their 3rd or 4th WoW alt that are not into raids that will be more than happy to get  a change of scenery and who could give a shit about anything more than "is it fun"

[stray]

The game is going to sell gents, like it or not.

No one is looking for it to fail. I think?

[Falconeer]

but if you take those away the game itself is just WoW but with worse tradeskills

Worse than WoW tradeskills? I admit I didn't explored crafting in LoTRO, but to have worst tradeskills than WoW you have  to NOT have tradeskills in your game.

slower combat (less visceral)

Looks to me like this is a matter of taste. I find the two being incredibly similar with just different particle effects and a not so noticeable different pace. I like the WoW particles more, but that's not enough for me to make it "more visceral"

worse models

Whaaaat? Do you like WoW "style" more? Ok, fine, great! But "better" model? Are you kidding me?
To me M.U.L.E. sprites are the better models ever, but I know they aren't. Is that what you are saying when you say WoW ones are better than LoTRO ones?

and a pretty landscape

We agree on this.

It has some nice touches (achievements, the lowbie town being instanced), and it's a pretty well done game

And we agree here too.

but it's too similar to WoW without being better to capture my interest.

And I understand this completely. To me it all comes down to that: personal preference, as it's true that the two games share a lot. I prefer LoTRO as I like the graphics more and it looks to me it delivers better quests and a little bit more storytelling and adventuring over just the leveling treadmill and the carrot on a stick of crazy itemization (so this is what LoTRO offers to me MORE than WoW). But I understand different preferences. It's obvious that I give great importance to the RPG and story factor of MMORPGs and I like it as stong and heavy as possible, while 10 million people prefer a mild version of it, a la Diablo that won lots of awards back in the days as "Best RPG of the year".
 
My gripe was just about the mild interest in a game that, to me, is WoW done better (although, as I said, I don't know shit about the endgame and that could obviously be a dealbreaker).

[Azazel]

The game is going to sell gents, like it or not.

No one is looking for it to fail. I think?

Nope, not me anyway. I hope it does well. It deserves to, as it's quite a well done game.

the three things I like about LoTRO is first I love the POI's.  I have been reading the books in a casual way since the early 70's so it was kind of neat to stick my head in Bag End and take a tour of the place, or wander around the Prancing Pony or go searching for the three stone trolls down at the Trollshaws. Add in that I can get badges and bonus traits to my character just for exploring is icing on the cake for me.

Exactly. These things were the highlight of my LOTRO experience by far.

Secondly Turbine has went to great lengths on the immersion. Going through Bree or the Shire it feels alive. Compared to the wooden NPC's and deserted looking towns in some other games it is pretty amazing in and of itself. One of things that really turned me off about Vanguard was that I never felt part of the world, NPC's were pretty bland during beta, that might be changing now but still.

We'll have to differ on that. It felt like WoW at best with a few peasants wandering around regurgitating their pre-canned lines. Not that I expect a great deal more, I'm just saying that doesn't feel particularly "alive" like a city packed full of PCs.

and the bottom line is Turbine employees  will be doing a conga line around their office wearing nothing but 100 dollar bills come release day. I have decided to go ahead with the 200 lifetime thing because 200 bucks is not all that much to me and I figure over the course of the games expansions I can always use this as a fallback MMORPG. The same reason I keep Half Life II and FEAR on my hard drive. I don't play them every night anymore but when I feel like a bit of FPS they are there ready to entertain me. Like I said earlier it is not a deep game nor is it complex and difficult, but the key phrase here is it is not frustrating. There are hundreds of thousands of people who are on their 3rd or 4th WoW alt that are not into raids that will be more than happy to get  a change of scenery and who could give a shit about anything more than "is it fun"

"is it fun?" is the most important thing for me as well. I'm not too sure on the conga line with money hats thing, but the thing is it's easier to see a trainwreck coming than the next surprise hit. As mentioned, I hope it does well but I'm just not up to predictions of amazing success for any MMOG anymore.


SirBruce Time!

Worse than WoW tradeskills? I admit I didn't explored crafting in LoTRO, but to have worst tradeskills than WoW you have  to NOT have tradeskills in your game.

WoW's tradeskills are simple and easy. Non-intrusive. KISS-theory in action. LOTRO's ones were arcane, worked on strange skill trees and were just fucking horrible and annoying.

Looks to me like this is a matter of taste. I find the two being incredibly similar with just different particle effects and a not so noticeable different pace. I like the WoW particles more, but that's not enough for me to make it "more visceral"

I don't know if "visceral" was the best term to use. Perhaps slow is a better term? I'm not really sure how to describe it. Better than, say, EQ1's auto-attack-and-taunt-occasionally model, but slower and somehow less fun than WoW while still being amazingly similar.

Whaaaat? Do you like WoW "style" more? Ok, fine, great! But "better" model? Are you kidding me?
To me M.U.L.E. sprites are the better models ever, but I know they aren't. Is that what you are saying when you say WoW ones are better than LoTRO ones?

On reflection, I'm thinking that perhaps LOTRO's models are a big part of the "brown" feeling the game has. OK the actual poly models may be ok, but the art design on the models is just bland. And no, I don't expect them to look like Warhammer models like WoW does, either. I'd like them to feel more rich somehow, even from the start when you're essentially a goatherd.

And I understand this completely. To me it all comes down to that: personal preference, as it's true that the two games share a lot. I prefer LoTRO as I like the graphics more and it looks to me it delivers better quests and a little bit more storytelling and adventuring over just the leveling treadmill and the carrot on a stick of crazy itemization (so this is what LoTRO offers to me MORE than WoW). But I understand different preferences. It's obvious that I give great importance to the RPG and story factor of MMORPGs and I like it as stong and heavy as possible, while 10 million people prefer a mild version of it, a la Diablo that won lots of awards back in the days as "Best RPG of the year".
 
My gripe was just about the mild interest in a game that, to me, is WoW done better (although, as I said, I don't know shit about the endgame and that could obviously be a dealbreaker).

Sure, just like Vanguard which I may rip on as a game, but I've happily said you're welcome to enjoy it. I don't really find true Role-Playing to exist in MMOGs any more than it does in any other CRPG (less in fact) and while I enjoyed the little bit of the game that had the Storyline section I was disappointed in not seeing more of it.

Not to sound like a raving WoW fanboy either, as my WoW interest level has dropped to a minimal amount in the last week or two, as my RL friends finished their rush to max level and don't log on much at all anymore, my wife is back at work so she's not interested in playing much, and now with me back at work again I can either log on by myself and solo or I can actually entertain myself more by just sitting on the couch, watching TV shows from bed, or even bullshitting here on f13. The irony is that my friends who rushed to the level cap, are now not logging on much while they wait for me (and the wife, etc) to catch up, but them not being on makes me less interested in getting on myself, so my playing and levelling has basically stopped for the moment. Shame my guild is so uninteresting.

Hopefully she'll be up for some Chinese New Years' quests this weekend, other than that I'm not especially interested in getting onto WoW at all. So, not exactly a WoW fanboi, anyway. I just think it's essentially the same thing, only done better than LOTRO.

[Venkman]

Exactly, what's done better in WoW?

It's the same. You care more about the LoTRO storyline is all. There's storyline to killing wolves in all dikus. You care about LoTR lore though so bother to read the quest text there.

WoW has plenty of instantiated scripted events too. LoTRO throws them at you right away and then again at some time in the distant future. WoW does it more sporadically, after the opening intro that introduces each race the first time you roll a character of that race of course.

Yeah, well we've all been expecting "World of Starcraft" for some time now.

Yep. However, I personally don't expect one anytime soon. Outside of Korea, Starcraft has run its course pretty much. Interesting and cool and all that, but Warcraft has the much greater history to it. And is now a cash cow.

Could Blizzard build World of Starcraft to the same level of WoW? Yes, with a duplicate staff and at least duplicate funding and duplicate amount of time. They spent buckets of time and money on WoW based on predicted success (their claims of surprise to the contrary). Does anyone here think Starcraft would be so successful to be worth $75mil+, a few hundred people and 5 years of development, considering all of the success factors behind WoW?

[Falconeer]

It's not that I like the text behind kill 10 wolves. I like stories when they are told well, and that often happened in EQ2, even when it was about killing 10 wolves, but this is not the case here as both LoTRO and WoW chose to go the less verbose way (too many players complained that there was too much stuff to read in EQ2. Go figure! "Yeah, blah blah, nof you just shut up and give me the quest so I can go back grinding you lousy NPC!")

LoTRO has this instanced and scripted solo stuff that I met at level 1, and it promises a storyline that I have more of a reason to believe it's there and that I'll be able to play it before burning out.
I played WoW to level 40 and I never met anything even remotely similar to the scripted stuff I met at level 1 in LoTRO, and it doesn't promise me anything better, be it personal, grouped or whatever. Yes, I had to escort a tauren lady once from a camp where she was held captive to a checkpoint where I got ambushed. Yes, I summoned a spirit and I had to follow it into a cave where something else happened. And yes looks like that Ragnaros script I heard about it's cool stuff.
But I'd say that this is too scarce and sub par compared to what I've seen so far in LoTRO BETA.

[WindupAtheist]

I love Falconeer.  Now that Vanguard has launched and landed with the sickening thud that everyone but he and Geldon expected, he's seamlessly moved on to humping the leg of the next Diku on the release calendar.  It sounds like LOTRO isn't a total pile of puke like Vanguard and will probably enjoy moderate success, but I still expect to see him doing his "It's better than WoW!!1!" dance yet again when Warhammer comes out.

[Nebu]

Can we just cut to the chase here.  How many people think that this is a good game that will garner more than a niche number of subscriptions?  It's a decently made game that has a look that appeals to those turned off by WoW's cartoonish graphics.  That's about it.  

I rarely make predictions (because I'm bad at it)  but If this game tops 400k subs, I'll be genuinely shocked.  

[CmdrSlack]

I love Falconeer.  Now that Vanguard has launched and landed with the sickening thud that everyone but he and Geldon expected, he's seamlessly moved on to humping the leg of the next Diku on the release calendar.  It sounds like LOTRO isn't a total pile of puke like Vanguard and will probably enjoy moderate success, but I still expect to see him doing his "It's better than WoW!!1!" dance yet again when Warhammer comes out.

So the guy likes different stuff than most people, so what?  Most of those judgments are totally subjective anyway.  FFS, you still like UO.

[Ixxit]

The game is going to sell gents, like it or not. First off it is Lord of the Rings, add in the fact that it will look and run decently on Mom's off the shelf Compaq, then compound that with it being polished and pretty bug free foozle whacking fun and the bottom line is Turbine employees  will be doing a conga line around their office wearing nothing but 100 dollar bills come release day. I have decided to go ahead with the 200 lifetime thing because 200 bucks is not all that much to me and I figure over the course of the games expansions I can always use this as a fallback MMORPG. The same reason I keep Half Life II and FEAR on my hard drive. I don't play them every night anymore but when I feel like a bit of FPS they are there ready to entertain me. Like I said earlier it is not a deep game nor is it complex and difficult, but the key phrase here is it is not frustrating. There are hundreds of thousands of people who are on their 3rd or 4th WoW alt that are not into raids that will be more than happy to get  a change of scenery and who could give a shit about anything more than "is it fun"

I think it will selll pretty well as well for the same reasons you state. I think collectively  LotRO, WAR  and Conan will start to peel away subs from WoW, at least  in Europe and NA.   Maybe not in huge numbers at first but by the end of the year and into 2008 I think we will l see the beginnings of a momentum shift.  Ultimately mmo fans, both old and new will start looking for new experiences.


Only played a bit of LotTRO during the stress test,  but saw enough to pre-order it.  I much prefer the realistic graphical style of the game, and some of the scenic vistas and locales  in the game synced up with  what was burned into my minds eye after reading the books over the years.  Pretty cool.  I'm glad that the artistic  inspiration was influenced from the books, and not the Jackson films.

As a personal preference, I rather enjoyed the slower paced combat.   The weapon swings seem to have mass  instead of an aenemic 'swish' (like  many in WoW) , and the 'specials' aren't so over the top and flashy that they obscure what is happening on the screen like EQ2; maybe it's just me but if I'm a warrior type,  I should't have flames shooting out of my ass and every other orfice when I hit 'special 1'.

[Falconeer]

I love Falconeer.  Now that Vanguard has launched and landed with the sickening thud that everyone but he and Geldon expected, he's seamlessly moved on to humping the leg of the next Diku on the release calendar.  It sounds like LOTRO isn't a total pile of puke like Vanguard and will probably enjoy moderate success, but I still expect to see him doing his "It's better than WoW!!1!" dance yet again when Warhammer comes out.

Are there doubts on the fact that Warhammer will be better than WoW?
World of Warcraft is not a bad game, it's a very good one. It's just the most overhyped and overrated PoS of all times.

[Ixxit]

I love Falconeer.  Now that Vanguard has launched and landed with the sickening thud that everyone but he and Geldon expected, he's seamlessly moved on to humping the leg of the next Diku on the release calendar.  It sounds like LOTRO isn't a total pile of puke like Vanguard and will probably enjoy moderate success, but I still expect to see him doing his "It's better than WoW!!1!" dance yet again when Warhammer comes out.

So you scoff and he jizzes.  What's wrong with that??

[Azazel]

Can we just cut to the chase here.  How many people think that this is a good game that will garner more than a niche number of subscriptions?  It's a decently made game that has a look that appeals to those turned off by WoW's cartoonish graphics.  That's about it.  

I rarely make predictions (because I'm bad at it)  but If this game tops 400k subs, I'll be genuinely shocked.  

Let's not forget that:

1) 400k subs is actually quite a lot by the old reckoning.
2) WoW's US numbers aren't the oft-quoted 8.5million. WoW's US numbers also include all of Oceana (Aust/NZ) as well as any number of Asian and European players that just aren't playing according to Blizz' regional rules.


Will Warhammer be better than WoW? It's much MUCH more PVP-centric. That's a dealbreaker or dealmaker for a lot of people right there. Is the IP well-known enough to make a large impact? I honestly couldn't answer that, as I've been a Warhammer guy for 20 years now, so my perspective on that is different to most gamers'. And of course, all game devs talk a good game. There's enough doubts right there. Let's see what it's like when it comes out, or at least into Beta..

[Arthur_Parker]

I rarely make predictions (because I'm bad at it)  but If this game tops 400k subs, I'll be genuinely shocked.  

It will break a million easy unless Turbine do something stupid like another balance pass.  They killed AC2 with nerfs and broken chat, you would think they would learn.  If 40% of your players are playing hunters, make the other classes more fun, the hunters aren't the problem, the other classes are.  You would think the mobs have a union or something "We are striking unless you nerf Hunters".  A few patches ago Guardians had a frontal AOE combat skill that delivered two swipes for a total of about eight times normal damage.  It had a short cooldown, the combat was fun, sure it was a bit broken but as it was an AOE skill, it was in your interest to pull more mobs, so more got hit.  Combat was fun and dangerous.  They fixed it by nerfing the damage.  I think they could improve combat overall by reducing the time needed to kill something but I have no clue what they actually will do.

[Nebu]

Let's not forget that:

1) 400k subs is actually quite a lot by the old reckoning.
2) WoW's US numbers aren't the oft-quoted 8.5million. WoW's US numbers also include all of Oceana (Aust/NZ) as well as any number of Asian and European players that just aren't playing according to Blizz' regional rules.

Let's also not forget that the games of the old reckoning didn't have $50 million plus budgets.  The ante has been raised and major development houses need a significant following in order to stay liquid.  As far as I last heard, I believed that the US numbers for WoW were on the order of 1.5 million. Maybe I'm mistaken on that figure.

As for WAR, it's a game we shouldn't compare to WoW.  It's a different game built with a different focus for a different crowd.  Will it be a good game?  I hope so... it's been a long time since a good game has come out.  

[Modern Angel]

My final verdict is that it's a very good game but I've no incentive to leave a level 70 behind to start all over. I like it. I might buy it and play it for a few months as my back up game (I should be getting a little weary waiting for Zul Aman at about release time) but it's not going to be my main game. It's just not different enough. For me. YMMV.

I did love the Shire though. One of the best crafted zones I've ever run across in one of these games. Fuck, now I sort of want to play it since I thought about Tibby Tibberton, hobbit burglar extraordinnaire. See what you did?

Anything interesting happen in beta2? I got a corrupt file repeatedly on my redownload of the client and it sort of coincided with this whole Burning Crusade thing.

[Morat20]

I am torn on this one.  We will see how things go before live is official.

And the word on the street is "Keep an eye out for Starcraft MMO announcement in the next couple months."  Just a rumor, but ya know...

I wonder if Blizzard -- should they actually do that -- would offer a deal for subs to both? (More like Station Pass than CoX's "You can play both for one sub fee"). Offhand, Blizzard doesn't have to -- they'd probably get a zillion people paying full subs to both. On the other hand, Blizzard likes the positive PR -- "Play both for just 5 dollars more" would make a lot of people happier, and thus more likely to buy it.

[Soukyan]

If they can break the subscription numbers of AC1 and maintain that, then the game will be considered a success and will be sustainable. If not, then it will die a similar death as AC2. The feeling of exploring the world reminds me of AC2. I like the look and feel of wandering about. To compare it to WoW is not a good idea as those who currently subscribe to WoW are not going to leave for it in the same way that EQ1 players were not going to leave for DAoC when they were still addicted to/having fun in the former game. When WoW players get bored, they may check out LoTRO, but I don't think Turbine is banking on stealing many/any of the WoW playerbase. Yada yada yada... long story short, it needs to get and maintain 250k or more subscriptions to stay alive. It will do that, other MMOGs will continue to be released, life will go on. None of them are winning Nobel prizes or even bridging the gap between reality and virtual reality. The Wii controller does more to move closer to interaction in a virtual world than MMOGs do. Not that that is the goal of an MMOG... just sayin'. ;)

[shiznitz]

I find it difficult to believe, but it appears there's been another major Guardian nerf, that's about the fourth since september.  Just in case anyone read my post above, where I said I had fun playing this for three months.  Keep in mind when making a decision to buy or not, that Turbine now thinks I was playing an overpowered class. 

If everyone is soloing to 20, what does overpowered actually mean?

[HaemishM]

I am torn on this one.  We will see how things go before live is official.

And the word on the street is "Keep an eye out for Starcraft MMO announcement in the next couple months."  Just a rumor, but ya know...

As much as I hate it, Blizzard and Vivendi would be FOOLS not to try to make a Starcraft MMO. After WoW, the business plan just fucking writes itself.

Starcraft Fanatics + Blizzard Polish + Wodges of WoW Cash for Development = PROFIT!

[eldaec]

I am torn on this one.  We will see how things go before live is official.

And the word on the street is "Keep an eye out for Starcraft MMO announcement in the next couple months."  Just a rumor, but ya know...

As much as I hate it, Blizzard and Vivendi would be FOOLS not to try to make a Starcraft MMO. After WoW, the business plan just fucking writes itself.

Starcraft Fanatics + Blizzard Polish + Wodges of WoW Cash for Development = PROFIT!

This is also why Mythic should have made WAR40k first.

[HaemishM]

I'm not sure what you mean by "offers you way more", since once stripped down past the graphics, both games are essentially the same thing, only with one of the two having done it better.

Exactly, what's done better in WoW?

Combat. Combat combat combat. The actual visceral feeling of hitting a specials key is more engaging in WoW than it is in LotRO. It's really that simple. It's the most basic interaction a diku-based MMOG can provide and if that part isn't working right, nothing else matters. LotRO's combat felt the same as DDO and Matrix Online, like I was watching the action instead of performing it. I don't think it's any surprise that I felt the exact same way about DDO's combat and that they were both done by the same house.

[HaemishM]

I rarely make predictions (because I'm bad at it)  but If this game tops 400k subs, I'll be genuinely shocked.  

It will break a million easy unless Turbine do something stupid like another balance pass.  

I have no idea where you got such a crazy notion. Western MMOG's have exactly 1 million sub game, and that's WoW. The closest to that number (that we know of) has been Final Fantasy, and that's a 2 platform game built on a HUGE video game license. EQ1 never even hit 500k subs. There are WAY WAY WAY too many MMOG's in addition to WoW for this game to break a million.

I'm comfortable in predicting that if this game has over 100k subscribers after the 2nd month, I'll eat my words and post an apology to Cal.

The market is big enough, but even with the Tolkien license, this game isn't going to get a million subs, or even 400k.

[Rasix]

This game is good enough to get 350K even with the faults I find in it.  And unlike SWG it'll actually hold them for a while.   It's a quality release from Turbine, something that honestly they never pulled off with the AC franchise.  I don't honestly know enough about DDO to say what shape it shipped in.

Is 350K enough?  I don't know, I'm not their accountant.  But remember, they said from the beginning they were aiming straight at WoW and looking to be a serious contender.  I'm assuming that came with a budget to match.

[Furiously]

The game isn't good/different enough to pull people away from WOW. They might get 100K subs of fans.

[WindupAtheist]

It's got a desirable IP and the execution is apparently not a total buttfuck.  Be real, Haemish, it'll do well over 100k easily.  I mean Christ, even UO and DAoC were still doing more than that last time I heard.  (Ok, last time Bruce updated his chart.  Sue me.)  350k with decent retention sounds reasonable.

[HaemishM]

Where is it going to get 350k from? Fans of the LotRO movies? That's 2 years too late. WoW? Just released an expansion with more than 3 months worth of content for most, and most of what I'm hearing says BC does not suck. VG? Not even 100k in that boat. DAoC? If you're still playing it, you're not likely to leave for a mostly PVE game. Tolkien fans? You run into the same problem SWG did, not all Tolkien fans are computer game fans, and less of those are MMOG fans. Turbine fans or cast offs from other Turbine games? Not going to be a lot of them.

I'd say 100k is a reasonable number. If an MMOG can't be profitable with 100k paying subs, THEY DID IT WRONG.