War

[Sir T]

This discussion should be in another thread, but to create more work for Yoru  I would suggest a change I would like, namely if you want to break sov 4 you have to take one station in a constellation, not break your way through 4 stations out of 6. That would make it far less daunting to break, and stop piling station all over the place to make it virtually impossible to take space.

[Sir T]

Back on topic a rag tag gang of one hundred and ten SHC posters went down to Delve to give the Goons a well deserved "what for" in PR- tonight. Sadly they were doomsdayed by PL. 

[Dallan]

"They" meaning the SHC gang and a few slow goons alike. Titan pilots are killmail whores on a level that sensor-boosted interceptor pilots can only dream of, apparently - it's not like the DD was remotely necessary.

[Goumindong]

I tend to disagree.  While the sov system certainly isn't perfect, it mirrors the real world in that sov 3/4 supplies enough stability that people can have recovery periods and relatively safe rear areas, while not being impossible to break, either.

This is kinda true. There are certainly some problems with sov3/4 and the difficulty in POS fighting.

And NPC space and low-value space exists for small entities.  If anything I'd like to see the map expand.  Vast spaces allow smaller groups to take areas that no one is interested in.  Imagine lots of small Providences - places where a fledgling 0.0 corp can find its space legs.

Part of the problem is that there is no real feeder areas. Low-sec isn't 0.0 enough and nor is NPC 0.0 really.

If there was a feed from low-sec -> NPC 0.0 -> Sov 3 less 0.0. You could give logistics bonuses in this new space so that fueling towers wasn't has hard etc and/or make it so anyone who held a sov 4 could not participate(I.E. anchor or shoot at towers)

Now, finding an RP justification for that... is a little bit harder.

Fake Edit: Nevermind, found. Call the area's state protectorates and integrate it into faction warfare. Sov would be held by corps participating in FW and they would reap all rewards from owning the stations(I.E. corps would be like alliances are for the rest of eve, and FW organizations like your big allied block). Since the four empires have reason to fear the interference of the large 0.0 blocks they have signed a pact that essentially makes it impossible for people owning 0.0 sov 4 to fight for the space

This discussion should be in another thread, but to create more work for Yoru  I would suggest a change I would like, namely if you want to break sov 4 you have to take one station in a constellation, not break your way through 4 stations out of 6. That would make it far less daunting to break, and stop piling station all over the place to make it virtually impossible to take space.

It would be better to just limit 3 player owned stations to a constellation i think. But the "contested" is a decent idea. The only problem with it is dropping another station in order to break sov (because then you hold a station in the constellation) which i think its kinda anti-fight and so not in the best interest of Eve.

[Dallan]

It would be better to just limit 3 player owned stations to a constellation i think. But the "contested" is a decent idea. The only problem with it is dropping another station in order to break sov (because then you hold a station in the constellation) which i think its kinda anti-fight and so not in the best interest of Eve.

Aren't station eggs relatively non-trivial to drop, though - have to stay in a helpless state and be guarded for 24h or something like that? Dumping one in an enemy sov 4 constellation in order to break sov seems like it'll still draw its share of combat.

[MahrinSkel]

I tend to disagree.  While the sov system certainly isn't perfect, it mirrors the real world in that sov 3/4 supplies enough stability that people can have recovery periods and relatively safe rear areas, while not being impossible to break, either.

This is kinda true. There are certainly some problems with sov3/4 and the difficulty in POS fighting.

On the other hand, we've just seen how fast battlefronts would move if we simply ditched Sov 3/4.  Sure, month-long sieges for every station are a drag, but if the home region of the almost indisputably most powerful single alliance in the game can be taken in a matter of weeks with them able to do nothing to even slow it down, imagine how little chance any lesser alliance would have.  And it's not like it's a completely isolated case, either, we saw the same thing happen to ISS in the opening stage of the war, right before the current Sov rules went into effect.  If you have enough capitals to hit a large number of POS on a daily basis, and total space control whenever you want it, you can rush through a target's space faster than allies can mobilize unless some arbitrary rules force a slower strategic tempo.  The logistics capabilities of Jump Freighters and Titan space-lift (which is much easier to arrange than it used to be) mean that an attacker doesn't over-run their own ability to supply the front the way they used to, so that brake on advance is gone.  The only thing that makes us think earlier Sov was better is a combination of nostalgia and the comparative rarity of capital blobs back then.

Sure, it sucks to be an alliance too small to carve out a Sov4 constellation for itself.  But removing it wouldn't improve the situation for the little guy, just raise the bar on the minimum level of strength to survive even higher and let them have company in their misery.  Look at what the *only* thing that slows down the Goon advance at all is: The threat of an equally strong capital fleet getting hot-dropped on them while they're POS-busting.  There are only 3 alliances with the ability to do that, and probably not room in 0.0 for more than 2 or 3 more.

This discussion should be in another thread, but to create more work for Yoru  I would suggest a change I would like, namely if you want to break sov 4 you have to take one station in a constellation, not break your way through 4 stations out of 6. That would make it far less daunting to break, and stop piling station all over the place to make it virtually impossible to take space.

It would be better to just limit 3 player owned stations to a constellation i think. But the "contested" is a decent idea. The only problem with it is dropping another station in order to break sov (because then you hold a station in the constellation) which i think its kinda anti-fight and so not in the best interest of Eve.

Replacing POS spam with outpost spam as a offensive tactic does not exactly open up the playing field to smaller alliances (and there's still a clear balance vulnerability there, remember that the Goons were prepared to drop an egg simply to delay the loss of Sov 4 long enough to hatch a Titan).  But we also have another cautionary tale: Not only is it bad for a single corp to hold all the POS for an outpost system, because if they leave or get infiltrated it can create a vacuum that is vulnerable to assault, but it's bad for a single alliance to hold all the Sov 4 across multiple regions for the very same reason: BoB was disbanded, creating a vacuum the Goons rushed to fill, and all their tenant alliances were helplessly screwed, which left the old Goon space up for grabs and everyone in it who didn't join the rush for Delve is screwed.

The model to look at is the "patchwork state", geographically based power blocks that consist of many different alliances, each intensively exploiting one or two constellations, which they hold Sovereignty 4 in.  Any unoccupied constellation is effectively a power vacuum, and if it already has the stations for Sov 4 an extremely attractive one.  But we're going to see a day, probably pretty soon, where an alliance splits *amicably*, with both halves of the split (and many of their allies) working to help the one that is splitting out to blitz-plant the outposts to upgrade their new constellation to Sov 4 qualifying.  Once they're there and their relationship with the immediate neighbors is stable, it's in everyone's interest to help keep them that way, because a vacuum could draw in a completely destabilizing wild-card.  On the other hand, if they aren't good neighbors, it's in everyone's interest to invite someone else in and help clear their path. 

"Good neighbors" doesn't mean blue NAP-fest, just rules of engagement everyone mostly abides.  FIX was willing to stare angrily across the 49-U/4-07 divide at IAC until hell froze over, as long as they didn't roll the dreads and start putting up POS in Q.  Having someone nearby to shoot at is convenient, as long as it doesn't escalate into an existential threat (as it did there when Tyrrax Thorrk decided to sell the rights to operate a reaction chain based in part on Querious moons).  There were a couple of alliances we had to deal with regularly that we didn't like at all, even though they were blue to us by direction of BoB.  Most specifically EXE, who were on notice that if they were seen in Q below the A2 pipe, even as part of a fleet defending a FIX station, there would be regrettable "accidents" in target identification.  They made it clear the same went for FIX in their then-residence of Paragon Soul).  We *liked* IAC for the most part, even when we were trying to kill them it was nothing personal (not until 49-U), while we hated EXE for FOFF's betrayal during the CODA war.  BoB was constantly getting pissed at us when we'd resynchronize our standings list with theirs and accidentally leave EXE off the list, or transpose the digits so they showed neutral, or the sign so they showed red.  Even when the alliance standings were correct, somehow they kept creeping into corp and personal standings as neutral or hostile.  Every few weeks we'd shoot one of theirs in the A2 or HED pipes.

Forgive the digression.  The point is that letting 0.0 constantly boil over with territorial shifts is not a good thing in game design terms, for every winner there is a loser (and more often, multiple losers), and if losing is all you can expect from your future when you're not a power-house alliance, the game won't be much fun (the classic "Hardcore Death Spiral" of a PvP world).  A little stability is not a bad thing, overall.  Providence/Northern Catch actually provides a pre-view of this, with 5 different alliances coexisting while most of them are intensively exploiting single constellations.  This is made possible because Providence is crappy space nobody with enough power to break Sov 4 wants, but something similar seems to be establishing itself in many parts of the North. 

The New Model that will replace the tribute feudalism of BoB and the mercantile imperium of the Goons will be extractive colonialism, the major powers will concentrate on holding a few constellations extremely tightly as an industrial heartland, and create a hegemonic buffer in which they take the R64 moons that capture most of the profit of T2 construction, but leave the stations and issues of mining/ratting rights to smaller alliances.  All they'll care about is that those alliances are not cyno jamming their jump freighters out of those R64 POS without giving them JB access, and they don't attack ships belonging to them or their logistics/empire alt corps. 

The mid-term transition to that is going to be a race to create those hegemonic buffer states, and although there will probably be some shooting involved, they're going to try and avoid making the landholder alliances feel they are under existential threat.  That would be stirring up a "circle the wagons" reaction as the anti-BoB forces did 2 years ago by trying to grind down everyone *but* BoB before going for Delve.  By the time they tried to fight BoB alone, they could no longer get them alone.  It was not BoB that created the GBC, it was the anti-BoB force's arrogant declarations to BoB neighbors and clients that if they didn't turn on BoB (not just stand aside, they had to be participants against BoB), they would be destroyed, followed by their attacks on all the edges of BoB's sphere of influence.  If the anti-BoB forces had struck directly for Delve two years ago, this would have been over in months rather than grinding on for years.

In fact, although everyone will always credit Haargoth's sovereignty stunt as what destroyed TAFKAB, it only created the opening for them to be destroyed *quickly*.  It certainly destroyed BoB, but what destroyed KenZoku was all the drama bombs that came spinning out of their director forums.  Had the FIX leadership known what the BoB directors were saying about FIX when MC floated their feelers about turning on BoB, they would probably have done it and with the secure supply lines (and proven McFIX steamrolling capability) the Tortuga events would have been the death of BoB rather than of MC and FIX.  And it wasn't just what they were saying, it was what they weren't saying, what they didn't even seem to care about. 

McFIX fought a desperate 2 month campaign in 49-U to prevent IAAAC from getting a back door into Delve and cutting off the Southern Front.  We didn't *have* to, many in FIX felt that 49-U was too distant and too vulnerable and never wanted an outpost planted there in the first place (even with JB access, there were better constellations in Q than XLL that could be JB linked and weren't only any potential strategic route).  We poured all our effort and all our treasure into saving an outpost we didn't need, because if it fell the entire deep south holdings of the GBC would lose their logistical lifeline and be starved out.  For over a month the entire war hung on a knife's edge, and we half-killed ourselves to keep it from tipping over.  MC lost two motherships, FIX poured the funds collected for the third LI-BAO station and constellation sovereignty into a massive logistical push, and it was *barely* enough, we were within a POS or two of losing Sovereignty more times than I can count, at least twice holding on only because Tyrrax couldn't count and stopped an assault 30 minutes too soon.

We were facing 2 or 3 times our numbers throughout the entire campaign, and not of the B team but with the core of the attacking force being AAA, even RA and Goons attacking the Mother Egg in ED- at the end when it became clear that IAAAC couldn't take the logistical strain much longer.  We let them take ED-, the Mother Egg, the only system that had ever seen an egg die (and it was killed by BoB because they were bored one weekend), the outpost we fought an insanely desperate 26 hour battle to save the *second* time, for a week because we refused to lose focus on saving BoB's ass in 49-U.  And BoB barely fucking noticed, and when they did they were dismissive and contemptuous.  All they had to say about it was some jokes about how it didn't matter if FIX morale broke, our morale always sucked because we were a bunch of squabbling democratic carebears, that it was funny MC had lost more value in the motherships than the Outpost had cost to plant, and how fucking lame it was that we needed their help to recover ED- against AAA and RA.  The only reason they even came up to do that was that they felt the Southern Front had been stagnant too long and IAC in Catch looked like a soft spot to stick it in.

If we had know all of that when MC started hinting at breaking off and letting BoB stand alone, BoB would have been dead right there.  If we (and the rest of the GBC pilots that helped us) had known what they had been saying about us all before 49-U, we simply wouldn't have been able to raise enough support from the rank and file to hold there.  Had we known before F-T, BoB would have lost their capital fleet there, instead of the other way around.  Sure, there were leaks of a contemptuous BoB post here and there back then, but the diplomats always managed to smooth it over and it was almost always just an ordinary BoB member, not their senior leadership talking to each other.

Because, let's face it, if you had *only* gotten the Sov reset, Goons would not be trying to figure out how to mop up KenZoku remnants and prepare for a long guerilla war against die-hards based in NPC stations.  They might be watching the Sov clocks and praying they could hang onto their beach-head of stations in southern Delve long enough to get ConSov after BoB got their jammers back, and trying not to tear themselves up bitching about what a bad idea it was to abandon everything they had in the south.  Participation would be shit, many Goons would have turned their freighters around and tried to save their old space no matter what The Mittani said.  You've rolled them over so fast because most of the former GBC isn't even trying to help them, and most of those that are, aren't getting the same kind of turnout the last two Delve incursions provoked.  Could you hold the blockade in PR- if the cavalry arrived in the form of a couple hundred capitals and a thousand or so sub-caps?  Because the old GBC would have done that in the first few days.  And that would put KenZoku's capital blob back on the board, and your whole operational tempo would have been slowed to a crawl.  You haven't taken ED- because AAA *might* hot-drop you from Stain, how much of Delve would you currently own if you hadn't managed to keep those KenZoku capitals out of play?

I'm not trying to say that what the Goons did wasn't a bold and courageous move, a do-or-die roll of the dice.  Or that it doesn't also rest on the biggest and fastest migration in Eve history, involving a logistical effort of huge proportions.  But it's only the *obvious* half of the story, equally critical are threads on hundreds of alliance and corp forums about what a giant ungrateful arrogant collection of assholes BoB/KenZoku is, and how nobody should do a damned thing to help them, followed by dozens of response about how particular people won't be taking *their* dread to Delve.  What's killing KenZoku is that everyone who might have helped them is finding out the truth about their roles in the epic drama of the last few years.  And KenZoku is finding out that *their* role wasn't as big as they were telling themselves, that they can't survive without the very people they were elevating themselves above.

They loved to talk about what a waste of space the GBC ships were, about how much they didn't need them.  It's a constantly recurring theme in their Director's Forum, as they wistfully remember the Good Old Days when the terrible righteous fury of BoB wasn't blunted by all these pissants.  Whoops.

Of course, it isn't like BoB feeling that way should be a surprise.  I'm sure that all of the major powers have similar attitudes towards their underlings, and unless the recent saga has served as a cautionary tale and they've started aggressively scrubbing the forums and enforcing a PC code for future discussion, they would be equally devastated if their innermost councils were exposed.  It's inherent in the social dynamics of the situation, when you create a feudal structure, you *must* morally justify your position at the top of it with arguments and internal myths about how you deserve to be on top, and they deserve to be on the bottom.  And that can't avoid becoming a culture of contempt where you believe that your class is solely responsible for every success, and all the spear-carriers are lucky you allow them to bask in your reflected glory and eat the scraps from your table.

Remember, Goonswarm, AAA, and the rest.  You are mortal.

--Dave (damn, that's a big fucking wall of text that should have been a blog post.  tldr version:  The director forum dramabombs dropping GBC participation is at least as much of what has happened as anything else, even if it is scattered in effect.  If the remaining powerhouse alliances like Goons and AAA don't watch out, they'll have their own future clusterfuck meltdown in the same track, but it will be pathetic instead of epic because they didn't go first)

[Quinton]

... lots of interesting words ...

Of course, it isn't like BoB feeling that way should be a surprise.  I'm sure that all of the major powers have similar attitudes towards their underlings, and unless the recent saga has served as a cautionary tale and they've started aggressively scrubbing the forums and enforcing a PC code for future discussion, they would be equally devastated if their innermost councils were exposed.  It's inherent in the social dynamics of the situation, when you create a feudal structure, you *must* morally justify your position at the top of it with arguments and internal myths about how you deserve to be on top, and they deserve to be on the bottom.  And that can't avoid becoming a culture of contempt where you believe that your class is solely responsible for every success, and all the spear-carriers are lucky you allow them to bask in your reflected glory and eat the scraps from your table.

This is one place where I think GoonSwarm has an advantage.  Maybe it's different in the lofty heights of the secret director/intel/etc forums, but I'm just a simple member of a pubbie corp in the swarm and that's above my pay grade.  GoonSwarm loves their allies.  Mocks them at times, but no more than Goons mock everything, and not secretly behind anybody's backs -- tact seems a foreign concept to the average Goon. 

Part of this is the ongoing meme that we're terrible and only exist because of the hard work of our allies, which is a little over the top, but it does at core recognize the importance of the allies.  An elaborate mythos is created about how unbelievably awesome TCF, etc are.  This of course then lends itself to total minitrue style reversals should they betray the swarm (suddenly -A- are no longer touted as the unstoppable Russians they once were painted as).

That's actually something I find enjoyable about GoonSwarm -- Goons can be loud and tactless and horrible trolls, but they're, in general, a loyal and friendly bunch who treat their corpmates and allies well (if, perhaps, rudely).

[Fordel]

The GBC needed the director level forum leaks to discover BoB was in fact a bunch of jackasses who despised anyone that wasn't BoB?

Really?

[Trebes]

I don't play EVE, but I'd been following the game off and on since the MAX campaign because I find the politics and such interesting. I was hoping people a bit more familiar might be able to answer some questions of mine. Forgive me if I get some of the history wrong, since a lot of this I read months after the fact from dubious sources.

Firstly, as I understand it the GBC was supposed to be BOB's answer to the Redswarm Federation's numerical advantage after its major allies (FIX, etc) collapsed. Basically vassal alliances given space in Delve instead of rent-paying industrialists/ratters under the understanding that they'd be required to fight under BOB's command. On paper it seems like a good idea. I'm trying to figure out where the breakdown was in the system. Were BOB too lax about what alliances they brought into the GBC? No established, working system for combined ops? No combined ops exercises to get a system practiced? I understand what MahrinSkel is saying,  but I find it hard to understand that after establishing this warrior-client system BOB's corporate ego wouldn't allow it to at least try to make the GBC into an effective tool.*



*I guess I should state that I'm operating under the strong impression that the GBC was not effective prior to the BOB director forum leak, maybe that's a false premise, but it's what my reading has led me to believe. At least from the MAX campaign onwards.

[Fordel]

Because BoB are(were) jackasses mostly. Being in the same space as BoB was a PRIVILEGE and etc. BoB is(was) ego incarnate. Every victory was because of BoB, every failure was because of <something not BoB>.

You have to remember, BoB had literal YEARS of telling themselves how awesome they all were and it was even true to some degree once upon a time.

[MahrinSkel]

Beyond that, the more effective BoB was at reshaping the alliances under their control, the more those alliances had to confront their subordinate status.  In the initial phases of FIX's relationship with BoB, they were very hands-off, we kept the pirates out of Querious and in exchange we could do anything but own stations and mine R64 moons BoB wanted.  As things went on, they got more and more demanding and specific, setting specific number of Dreads we had to have before we could lay down outposts, changing the standard from having that many period to being able to actually field that many and then to being able to field that many at will, rather than as a planned op, and so on.

Of course, the fact that they kept recruiting away our best PvP people didn't help.  IT didn't take as much of a hit as most, a big part of the reason we wound up being nearly half of FIX's dread fleet and killboard was that everyone else kept watching their dread pilots join BoB, taking their dreads with them even when they were corp-financed in many cases.  If everyone else in the alliance had matched our per-capita throw weight, FIX would have had nearly as many dreadnoughts as BoB (not that they could have, IT was also much more wealthy as individuals and a corp than most of FIX).

The FIX/BoB relationship did start out as one of mutual respect, FIX and BoB fought a long war over use of the A2 pipe through Querious to Delve a long time back (at the time, it was the only Empire entrance to 3 different regions), and it wound up a draw.  But as FIX became stronger, it seemed like BoB's attitude towards us got worse.  They didn't want to admit they actually needed the military support of their subordinates, especially an alliance that about a hundred of the BoB members had quit after we lost the CODA war.  So the better we were doing, the more important it was to minimize it and belittle us.

There was a lot of abusive relationship dynamics going on as well, with leadership shielding the members from the most offensive and humiliating stuff.  When I bitched out a senior BoB leader for wasting my time whining about his damned Dysprosium and Prometium moon mines getting knocked down by Razor while we were trying to hold off the first northern siege of ED-, I was told that the FIX leadership was very pissed off at me.  I later found out that they actually weren't, but that BoB was (apparently the guy I was talking to was one of the four BoB CEO's, on an alt).  And I found out much later that the reason BoB had rented out our best ratting constellation and excluded us from it was as punishment for not defending their moon mines.

As these raw deals filtered down the pipeline, the leaders tried to minimize the degree to which BoB was interfering with our internal process and treating us with ever less respect.  That one constellation provided an example of why, we responded to them doing it by ignoring any raider or pirate that went in there, and the corp renting the constellation pulled out in less than a month.  Our logic ran thus: Our post-CODA agreement gave us mining/ratting rights to all of Querious in exchange for being responsible to defend it against all non-territorial threats.  If we couldn't use the constellation then we didn't have any obligation to defend it, the renters could handle that stuff themselves.  Either that constellation was no longer part of Querious under the terms of the agreement (which also excluded the A2 pipe and the "lost constellations" that connected only to Delve as not being part of "Querious" for the purposes of the deal), or BoB was in breach of it, no matter which we didn't care what happened in there.

Of course, it didn't help that they suspected someone rich in FIX had hired mercenaries to roam the constellation 23/7 until the renters left, and FIX wasn't doing anything about them even when they were transiting the rest of the region.  We apparently came very close to getting kicked out by BoB in the interregnum between the first and second sieges of ED-, but Xelas pissed them off even more and they realized they couldn't have both of the buffer regions vacant at the same time, even if the heat was off for the time being.  But at the time, only a handful of people in the alliance were aware of how much crap BoB was throwing at our diplomats and leaders (and of course, nobody knew what the BoB directors were saying privately).

By the end there was no hiding it, though.  Between the amount of time BoB and FIX members spent in the same channels, the number of ex-FIX in BoB, and that their demands came to include ceasing to hold elections for Chairman and effectively giving away that 49-U outpost after we fought so hard over it, the more perceptive of the members (who also tended to be doing most of the work behind the scenes that kept the alliance going, especially on logistics and intel) realized that nobody was really pretending we weren't pets anymore.  BoB issued orders and we responded, they weren't even always being filtered through the leadership.  I believe by the end, they had effectively disbanded our own military chain of command after an inexperienced FIX FC made a mistake and lost about 10 BoB ships (out of a gang of 50).  If there were BoB in the gang, it was a BoB gang and had to have a BoB FC (even if there was only one BoB member and he sucked as FC).  The retreat from Querious after the Tortuga events was almost an afterthought to the death of the alliance, the truth was that in the months between 49-U and Tortuga, FIX had died and failed to notice.

I don't think BoB formalized the GBC as a political entity until after that, and probably in response to the way that MC and FIX had responded to their earlier behavior.  They needed a figleaf of legitimacy to cover the relationship's realities.

So yes, BoB's insecurities drove them to destroy the martial spirit and capability of at least some of the alliances in the GBC.

--Dave

[Endie]

A lot of great reading there, Mahrin, and I don't have time to respond to lots of it right now, but a couple of points do stand out.

One is mentioned by Quinton: Goons generally categorise their allies as awesome for :shobon: (difficult to translate as a concept without the related emoticon, but a newbie who tries his guts out, asks a dumb question, then gets a tackle as much by luck as good judgement is :shobon:, for instance.  We rarely have allies that we don't respect, because the qualification tends to be that to be our ally you have to be worthwhile.  We don't charge rent of anyone, and even where we've helped people get space it has been helping them, not giving it to them.  The exceptions I can remember were Daisho (generally despised) and KoS (who became worthless).  Those were kinda dictated by shot-term strategic situations. and allies-of-allies.  we adore our allies, to the extent that we are blind to their faults.  An obvious failure on our part is regarding AAA, whose contribution to the war on Bob, outside of defending their buffer in Catch, tended to be a couple of fleets turning up to help when a titan was tackled, and a willingness to shoot our allies at every opportunity, even with 100+ reds in local.  For months we had people saying "AAA are not your friends, they have achieved little in years, their leadership wants to align with Bob ('to roll with the best'  ) and they'll backstab you at the first opportunity" but we still had the Evil Thug Cult of Personality (tm) going then, so most Goons didn't listen.  There were quite a few "I told you so" discussions on the forums late last year.

The other is the importance of the Bob directorate leaks.  It would be wrong not to stress just how important we saw these as as an extension of our long-running political and psychological strategies in our attempts to marginalise Bob/Kenny and split them from their pets and allies.  Names are just an example: Kenzoku was a gift, but we immediately saw that we should stress Barbie as the new name for the GBC.  Who wants to be in such a demeaningly-named organisation?  And the day that BoB was removed we immediately removed to sieze the name and identity for ourselves and have it be associated with scamming and goonsploits, as our new member corp: the directive was given to join it on alts and shatter any legacy of the name, so that new players in Eve would only associate Bob with scams.

People think that when we claim to be influenced by Goebbels or the propaganda machine of the Soviet Union we are indulging in an elaborate and shocking gimmick, but approaches explicitly founded upon their practices have been discussed on many occasions in the past.  RoyofCA really did help break Rise with his constant "People of Rise!" broadcasts in local.  Every time I am in local with only a few barbie members I quote at them the judgements of CFlux and the other Kenny leaders on their own corps, and do the "more in sorrow than anger" routine.  Nobody of worth can stay committed when explosed to that sort of propaganda for long.

Plus, it leads to awesome forum porn from enemies 

[DayDream]

I'm just an outside observer, but it seems to me that the simple breakdown is Goonswarm was better at building a large alliance than BoB.  And with the way server technology has changed, along with the shift in ship balance, truly large alliance battles became a practical tactic in ways that weren't before.  It seems like a real shift in the metagame of Eve, to me.  Or, it could be.  I guess it's dependent on if other alliances can pull off this sort of cultural victory, by which I mean either direct assimilation or militarily overwhelming growth, or even the combination of the two i think we've seen here.

Don't know if Goonswarm's style is the only option, rather doubt it actually.  Seems like a democratic option might be another candidate, maybe depending on the execution of that style.

I think the obvious next trick after this one might be something like "who can turn their giant alliance into a focused fighting force better?"  Either that or something to do with cultural flexibility, I'm too sleepy to put the thought together right now.

[Sir T]

Quick War News, I believe we have Tower Majority in ED- now (needs to be confirmed but we have killed towers there) Thats preety much the last Kenny station system trending to us.

Also F13 Posters have spammed and have now captured TPAR station. 

[slog]

I'm just an outside observer, but it seems to me that the simple breakdown is Goonswarm was better at building a large alliance than BoB.  And with the way server technology has changed, along with the shift in ship balance, truly large alliance battles became a practical tactic in ways that weren't before.  It seems like a real shift in the metagame of Eve, to me.  Or, it could be.  I guess it's dependent on if other alliances can pull off this sort of cultural victory, by which I mean either direct assimilation or militarily overwhelming growth, or even the combination of the two i think we've seen here.

Don't know if Goonswarm's style is the only option, rather doubt it actually.  Seems like a democratic option might be another candidate, maybe depending on the execution of that style.

I think the obvious next trick after this one might be something like "who can turn their giant alliance into a focused fighting force better?"  Either that or something to do with cultural flexibility, I'm too sleepy to put the thought together right now.

It's been my experience that Democracy works very poorly in territorial PvP games.

[Reg]

IMO, just not going out of your way to be arrogant dickheads would be a good first step in holding your alliance together dontcha think?

[Sparky]

It's been my experience that Democracy works very poorly in territorial PvP games.

Confirmed, you need fast decisions to ever changing events and everyone pulling the same way rather than people wasting time arguing their corner.  BRUCE was a good example, the corp reps spent more time sticking their oars in stuff they didn't even understand than actually helping get shit done.  All the successful alliances are run by charismatic dictators.

[Sir T]

I think the whole BOB pet relationships is far more complex that you might be thinking. I think they knew what BOB thought of them but felt they were somewhat special and would be spared. Lets take some examples...

http://kugutsumen.com/showthread.php?t=2406

Quote:

Quote:
Marcus Malos wrote:

Think BoB's not learned?

I KNOW BoB.

I've sat in #BoBCommand on IRC for many nights.

I've negotiated with Dianabolic.

I've followed Molle/Shrike's command in teamspeak.

I've had the founder of BNC.E buy me beer.

Believe me when I say: Bob has NO allies.

They never enter into any arrangement they will not immediately terminate the second it appears they could take and hold what's yours. There is no room in their worldview for equal partners - only enemies and those they wish to exploit.

It is NOT in BRUCE's interests to be exploited by BoB.

Have NO doubts: they are coming for us.

If you look back at our recruitment conversations, KAZO said we had a bone to pick with BoB. That bone was simply their most RECENT betrayal.

BoB has learned, all right. They've learned that with 8 titans and Cynojammers they're virtually impossible to displace from delve. They've learned that if they just keep building titans under Sov 4, unless game mechanics shift seriously, they're safe, and so have NOTHING to worry about, no need to find allies, and are able to kill their enemies off one at a time, weakened as they are from 20 months of constant warefare.

There can be no partnership with BoB.

The reps elected to turtle up here in fountain, so that's what we need to do: create a fortress as impenetrable as BoB has made Delve. Anything less, and we'll be back in Syndicate, and it'll be BoB who puts us there. Have NO doubts about that.

http://kugutsumen.com/showthread.php?t=1682

Personally im done with rent, if we loose RHG I don’t see the point in re-renting from BOB, Period, its obvious they cant keep their end of the bargain.

Standings Reset?

Do we stay blue to BOB/MC? I like the some of the folks I have flown with in both alliances recently in FAT, but really don’t like the disrespect I receive on TS. Last night on TS, I was almost pissed enough to kill and pod 2 members in the gang I was in with them when they started disrespecting our alliance. I had to log off TS, because if I heard anymore, we would have a nasty blue on blue situation. I mean seriously!?, I logged in every day for the last 3 weeks to make sure their fleets had the option to get bonuses with 9.9 million s/p of leadership, max skirmish skills, in a command ship...giving them the little extra... i know its probably not that big of a deal to them, but I don’t think that’s the way you treat an ally that spent so much time helping them take FAT. RISE represent a small bunch of pilots up there, but they had some of our best PVP'ers assisting their efforts. Etil, Seb, Dhan (recon/probing genius, setting up countless kills for them), myself bonusing from FC spot, sdchew, ....the list goes on... very solid, heavy playtime pvp'ers up there helping...and the respect we get is "Looks like you guys are fucked"; "sorry dude, your not a priority"... That’s the quotes i was getting from TS from several bob/mc members last night?!?

Etc etc. There's reams of this stuff. Theres always this stupefying shock that its happening to THEM when they have see it happening to others, yet they always seem to have the knowledge of what BoB really was like, but they cannot seem to deal with the fact that these guys they deal with are realy the raging assholes they intellectually know they are.

[Goumindong]

On the other hand, we've just seen how fast battlefronts would move if we simply ditched Sov 3/4.  Sure, month-long sieges for every station are a drag, but if the home region of the almost indisputably most powerful single alliance in the game can be taken in a matter of weeks with them able to do nothing to even slow it down, imagine how little chance any lesser alliance would have.  [...]  The only thing that makes us think earlier Sov was better is a combination of nostalgia and the comparative rarity of capital blobs back then.

I was referring to the difficulty in disrupting strategic POS modules. The actual effect of Sov 3 and 4 turning the Sov game into one that requires more strategy rather than "attack station system, siege/take, move to next" is good. The inability to disrupt moon mining income, jump bridges, and cyno generators with smaller gangs is the issue.

The reason it is so is because non-main fleet strategic operations are largely relegated to camping a pipe(which can be circumvented via jump bridges), which makes each battles strategic considerations less complex. So while there is now more strategy on a grand level, there is still just as little for individual battles. Because of this it looks like, for a lot of participants, that the game didn't change at all when the sov changes went in.

Replacing POS spam with outpost spam as a offensive tactic does not exactly open up the playing field to smaller alliances

Which is one reason i was suggesting keeping the number of stations to 3. Another way to do it would be to only have the first 3 stations or three highest upgraded stations count towards constellation sov.

Because, let's face it, if you had *only* gotten the Sov reset, Goons would not be trying to figure out how to mop up KenZoku remnants and prepare for a long guerilla war against die-hards based in NPC stations.  They might be watching the Sov clocks and praying they could hang onto their beach-head of stations in southern Delve long enough to get ConSov after BoB got their jammers back, and trying not to tear themselves up bitching about what a bad idea it was to abandon everything they had in the south. 

In the first quote, i was this close to saying that you were placing too much emphasis on the sov loss and not enough on the discombobulation and general enmity caused by the sov drop and forum leak.

[Sir T]

Actually in ED- sov has already flipped from Kenny to Interdiction, meaning that the Sov counter has already reset. 

I have no idea why, but there it is.

[Meester]

I think in regards to MahrinSkels posting about outpost eggs being destroyed, one other was blown up by some serbian corp/alliance one time. No idea whose it was though.

I think the only GBC outposts left in Period Basis, belong to BeachBoys, Frontal Impact and Executive Outcomes. Wonder how long they will hold out for?

[Phildo]

Actually in ED- sov has already flipped from Kenny to Interdiction, meaning that the Sov counter has already reset. 

I have no idea why, but there it is.

KenZoku may have pulled their towers or, as we have seen in other systems, simply let them run out of fuel.  If Interdiction was maintaining a single POS in-system set to claim Sov, they will have stolen it from Kenny the second they gained superiority.  This is what happened in much of Delve when Sov dropped a few weeks ago, where we saw Axiom and Skunk-Works become the majority Sov holders for a couple of days.

Edit: on the Axiom front, I noticed that several of their member corps are now in a new alliance called TERMENTUM.  I chuckled when I saw that, because most of these same corps were also in Interdiction prior to that.  And TERCIOS even before that.  They keep trying and failing, but maybe they'll do better outside the GBC vassal system.

[Pax]

With all the alliances failing and (re)forming, a service similar to Hardin's could prove profitable.

[Phildo]

Yeah, Hardin from CVA makes a living setting up alliances.  I'm pretty sure there's a guy in AAA that does the same, since that's how ROL was formed.

[Quinton]

Yeah, Hardin from CVA makes a living setting up alliances.  I'm pretty sure there's a guy in AAA that does the same, since that's how ROL was formed.

How does that work?  Is it just a diplomatic service?  Or providing specific knowledge of game mechanics?  Or operating executor corps for people?

[Fordel]

My understanding is you need some pretty hefty in game skills to actually form an alliance, but not run it.

So he spins it up, then hands off leadership to whoever paid for it.

[Goumindong]

My understanding is you need some pretty hefty in game skills to actually form an alliance, but not run it.

So he spins it up, then hands off leadership to whoever paid for it.

Whomever starts the alliance/corp sets its base "who can be in it" amount. There is no requirement for alliances except that you need all the corp skills.

You can change the bonus by doing some weird thing, but i don't know how that works. This is why you will periodically see strange "CEO's" of goonfleet, they are just alts that they stuck in because the latest skill level of "+1000 people in your corp" finished

[Meester]

Looks like AAA took the last United Legion stations in Paragon. Wonder what they need them for?

[MahrinSkel]

Looks like AAA took the last United Legion stations in Paragon. Wonder what they need them for?

Not that they need them as much as they want to deny them to anyone else.  Now, if they suddenly show up in Period Basis, something is wrong.

More interesting is that KenZoku is still holding 49-U, and according to Eve-Maps has Sov 3 in 9SBB.  Why there of all places, I don't know, but they must have had the system well before the dissolution of BoB.  However, 9SBB, 49-U, and another remnant system in Delve (I can't see the name out of game, but it's the southernmost system in Delve) represent between them a potential logistics lifeline for a siege in PB (they're just in Titan jump range of each other).  They also hold ZXJ, which could substitute for 49-U if that station were lost.  If I were the Goon HC, I'd be looking to cut that line before Sov 3 kicks in.

--Dave

[trevorreznik]

Looks like AAA took the last United Legion stations in Paragon. Wonder what they need them for?

Not that they need them as much as they want to deny them to anyone else.  Now, if they suddenly show up in Period Basis, something is wrong.

More interesting is that KenZoku is still holding 49-U, and according to Eve-Maps has Sov 3 in 9SBB.  Why there of all places, I don't know, but they must have had the system well before the dissolution of BoB.  However, 9SBB, 49-U, and another remnant system in Delve (I can't see the name out of game, but it's the southernmost system in Delve) represent between them a potential logistics lifeline for a siege in PB (they're just in Titan jump range of each other).  They also hold ZXJ, which could substitute for 49-U if that station were lost.  If I were the Goon HC, I'd be looking to cut that line before Sov 3 kicks in.

--Dave

Something strange is going on there-dotlan (which I'm very happy to see gaining mass credence, I was the first GF fc to push for other folks using it since it's so easy) shows that Rebellion alliance has had the station for a while now.  Is it possible that kenzoku has never managed to shoot the station back in the last 3 weeks? 

[Phildo]

Browsing through Dotlan maps I saw that Goons lost sov to Aegis Militia and then Sov was passed onto Arkai Confederation "who?", so umm yeah, what happened? CVA finally decide it was time to get rid of the Goon presence in their space? I thought the people there had a NAP with Goons but guessing it wasn't so.

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1011765


Sup with that?  Inquiring former members of Aegis Militia would like to know.

[Endie]

First off, here is an animated gif of the war so far.  The towers killed total is waaaay off: these are only the towers on the goonfleet killboard and misses out all the ones killed by others (Razor and MM in Querious, in particular) as well as those not posted (infuriatingly many, in my experience).  I'd bump the figure up by 30% or so, and that is being conservative.

More interesting is that KenZoku is still holding 49-U, and according to Eve-Maps has Sov 3 in 9SBB.  Why there of all places, I don't know, but they must have had the system well before the dissolution of BoB.

Something strange is going on there-dotlan (which I'm very happy to see gaining mass credence, I was the first GF fc to push for other folks using it since it's so easy) shows that Rebellion alliance has had the station for a while now.  Is it possible that kenzoku has never managed to shoot the station back in the last 3 weeks? 

Dotlan is out of date, and was incorrect as of lunchtime yesterday.  We shot the TPAR station on Saturday night, but dotlan show it as still Kenny's.  Rebellion, however, have held the 49- station for the last few weeks.  Similarly, KIA (being lazy bastards) have taken ages to shoot the stations in Dice's Period Basis constellation, perhaps because we'd just have to shoot them again for ourselves a few days later vOv

And yes, Mahrin, Kenzoku already had a sov-claiming POS in 9SBB before the end of Bob.

[MahrinSkel]

Wierd, everybody still shows 49-U as Kenzoku.  I thought Eve-Maps used an automated data dump, and I know the Influence map does.

--Dave

[Sir T]

Kenny never shot 49u station to retake it even thought they regained sov when Kenzoku became their new home. We have a tower majority there now, but Kenny probably still hold sov there. I think they still have 6 larges in system.

[Pax]

Browsing through Dotlan maps I saw that Goons lost sov to Aegis Militia and then Sov was passed onto Arkai Confederation "who?", so umm yeah, what happened? CVA finally decide it was time to get rid of the Goon presence in their space? I thought the people there had a NAP with Goons but guessing it wasn't so.

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1011765


Sup with that?  Inquiring former members of Aegis Militia would like to know.

Wasn't "Goth" part of the newper that we abandoned anyway?
Perhaps "Smokey" went fuck-AM with the Rorq-fund-3.0