War

[Endie]

Would love to know what your long-term plan is though, Trigona. Unless BOB completely fractures in the next few weeks it is likely we'll be in a similar situation very soon. That means either one of the big entities (TCF, Razor?) settle in Querious to balance numbers, or GS finds a tenant that survives long enough to become a force on its own.

That, or lots and lots of roadtrips?

Like Pred, I'd love to see UNL take Querious (not least because there are Goons who would log in to fight for UNL that wouldn't even bother to do so for ourselves!), but I understand why they've been keen to try what they have, and why some of their members might harbour mixed feelings about us.  From what has happened to them in the last ten days, and their reaction, I can't help but feel that a decision on their future has been made on their part, but they have a lot of options in both east and west available.

As regards us being in the same place in a few weeks: a lot of us have, in the past, been on either or both sides of what is happening, now.  I'd be utterly unsurprised if they shed yet more pets.  They've lost a lot of pet numbers in the past couple of months, although if you play the corp history game in local you see that some have been transferring to Kenny in order to hold their numbers up.  I also expect that the number of Kenny pilots logging in will drop further, though it's hard to believe that they'll actually bleed out, yet.  They surely have another big assault in them at decent (but slightly lower) levels of participation.

But the big factor is that a war involving two weeks of kiting by everyone committed which can then be balanced by just over two days of serious effort by c.20% of Goons (making assumptions about alts, there) plus a sustainable percentage of their allies' fleet-loving friends is going to bleed out Kenny's morale and money (as opposed to that of their Russian masters) in a way that it won't do to us.  Add to that gradual increases in the number of sov 4s to contend with (quite takable, but a real pain) and what I suspect will be an eye-watering number of new Goon titans after the three-month anniversary of J-L going sov 4 arrives, and the prospect becomes less appetising.

And not every "Big Push" of Kenny's can be fortunate enough to coincide with a roles debacle and stront-timing fuckup like this one.  Remember that this failed offensive follows that involving H74 and related spams, for instance, which was dealt with rapidly.

----

Away from the unapologetic theory-crafting and baseless speculation (~take it to CAOD~) DBRB just took an AAA high-end.  The high-end had three carriers in triage trying to rep it (which died) and a nomad (which didn't).  It was also revealed that, following Sam Handwich's new titan (was it Darius'?  I dunno), The Boat also has an alt in a huge flying willy, now.

Edit: "We" being PL, with a few Goons, Razor, MM etc to pad out the numbers.

Second Edit: someone in TS just said this was the second AAA R64 to fall.  I didn't see the other one, but then of approaching thirty tower mails almost a third are missing thanks to inter-ally non-posting.  So I dunno if that's true.  Either way, I don't see them lasting long, since any Kenny plans to scrape together the pennies for another offensive from their three remaining moons (we definitely took another one of theirs, too) will have to wait for AAA to get their moons back, I strongly suspect...

[Sir T]

Its been mentioned to me that someone (not going to speculate who) is selling Ferrogel at below manufacturing costs in empire recently. That might indicate that someone is burning stockpiles to rustle up ready cash fast.

[Dallan]

Why don't goons just move in to Querious?

Its not like the goons havn't held vast swathes of territory before and since they are the biggest alliance in eve in terms of numbers they could probably inhabit both Delve and Querious at the same time.

MahrinSkel, as usual, is right here: though Goons _could_, nobody in their right minds would live in Querious when they have access to Delve (especially not Goons, because it's been built up as a sort of Promised Land for us, and it's basically the perfect region for an alliance that rats as heavily as GS, given its ridiculous carrying capacity). Not only do we not need any more space, it's actively detrimental for us to have it. But Q needs to be defended, which leaves the leadership with a hell of a dilemma.

An uninhabited Querious doesn't get defended as strongly as it needs to be, and a Querious held by a GS that lives in Delve will be a ghost town like most of the South was. But none of our allies that could hold it wanted it (most of them have better space elsewhere - and if UNL loses in the East, I get the same impression as Endie that they have other plans), so we're stuck with it as our soft underbelly. Welp.

[trevorreznik]

holy crap, dbrb has a titan?  too bad he can't insure it.

what's actually interesting is he's the first fc of any sort to have a titan in goonswarm, so it'll be interesting to see how often it gets used (i'd assume a ton)

[rand]

He doomsdayed some MRCHI with it

[Simond]

holy crap, dbrb has a titan?  too bad he can't insure it.

what's actually interesting is he's the first fc of any sort to have a titan in goonswarm, so it'll be interesting to see how often it gets used (i'd assume a ton)

Tolon had a titan. Technically. 

[Fordel]

Goons should offer Querious to Star Fraction or whatever their name is.   

[trevorreznik]

holy crap, dbrb has a titan?  too bad he can't insure it.

what's actually interesting is he's the first fc of any sort to have a titan in goonswarm, so it'll be interesting to see how often it gets used (i'd assume a ton)

Tolon had a titan. Technically. 

hah, I forgot about that.  He actually used it a few times in geminate. 

mykow could've easily gotten a titan built for him if he'd gotten a titan capable character, but never wanted one.  scavok probably was in the same boat, but not as sure on that.

[Kovacs]

Any news on the IRC/ED v. RA front.  I just joined a corp. moving from Sylph/Catch space to the IRC space in the drone regions and was curious.  As a miner/researcher I don't really have any skin in the game but on the surface I don't hate the idea of better minerals (yeah, Catch really is that bad.)  so long as I won't be getting my ass kicked.

And not to get too far off but what's the 'thing' with the drone regions?  No rats and wierd loot?

[Endie]

The results of Molle's ~Patioence~ offensive are now in.  I1Y is now completely purged, as is ED-.  Which puts Kenny in a worse position than they were before, since they actually had towers in I1Y before they started.  The big result of the offensive for AAA is that Kenny's incompetence lost them - for now, at least - two R64 moons in lowsec to PL.  Kenny also lost two R64 moons, and are down to three again.  Now the hundred or so towers spammed by Kenny and Barbie across the rest of Querious are being addressed.  For a few days, at least, we've regained the strategic momentum, and with us able to almost match the enemy's numbers for now, maybe they'll finally get their ~good fights~.

In vaguely-related tittle-tattle, since AAA were using sploits to manipulate grid sizes for such reasons as to keep everyone within warp-disruptor range of towers, for instance, we've published the details of how it is done.  Since it is likely that they're doing it after being told how by a shady individual named "TrevorReznick" after he swapped sides, and since it was GARPA (the Goonfleet Advanced Research Projects Agency) who told him how to do it, I think it's unlikely we'll be petioning, even though we apparently haven't done it since CCP declared it an exploit 

I actually have half a memory of one of the Bob directors alluding to doing this in their leaked forums, so I suspect it might have been independently discovered by them, too.  But with the prevalence of people like Trevor (filthy, dirty defectors who'd sell out their side for a ready supply of replacement HACs) or Haargoth (fine, upstanding chaps, salt of the earth and motivated only by a desire for freedom and truth), who knows?

Any news on the IRC/ED v. RA front.  I just joined a corp. moving from Sylph/Catch space to the IRC space in the drone regions and was curious.  As a miner/researcher I don't really have any skin in the game but on the surface I don't hate the idea of better minerals (yeah, Catch really is that bad.)  so long as I won't be getting my ass kicked.

And not to get too far off but what's the 'thing' with the drone regions?  No rats and wierd loot?

As I understand it, Solar Fleet intervened on the side of IRC/ED against Majesta Empire, while remaining neutral in their conflict against RA/UNL et al.  This is second-hand info from our forums, however, so treat with caution.  What is certain from dotlan is that, immediately afterwards, Majesta abandoned a large swathe of systems that they had gained.

Re the second half of your query: the ore distribution in the drone regions is odd.  You'll be delighted to find crokite, bistot and arkonor in most good truesec belts, but if you came from the south-east you'd be despondent at the small numbers of each type of asteroid.  It made my six-boxing mining ops impractical as i was clearing belts too quickly and spending too much time setting up new tanks.

However, if you can bring yourself to shoot the drones instead then you'll find it's the best ratting space outside of Delve.  You need infrastructure, but no more than you require for mining.  It is perfectly easy to dual-box to double the ratting income of conventional space, and probably four times that of the best Sylph space in northern Catch.

[Sir T]

I guess since it has been published on eve-o (in a thread that was locked within minutes I might add) Its ok to drop a link to the grid changing manual here.

http://files.ratunderground.net/eve/gridfumanual2.pdf

[trevorreznik]

hah-that leak isn't directly from me, as I never saved the manual and distributed it.  I did make mention of the techniques several times, but a lot of people had access to that info, including nync and mactep (i think?  I gave it to a bunch of russian fcs with a director's permission, can't remember if it was mittani or sesfan or what) during the first delve invasion.  When was gridfu actually declared an exploit?

[IainC]

hah-that leak isn't directly from me, as I never saved the manual and distributed it.  I did make mention of the techniques several times, but a lot of people had access to that info, including nync and mactep (i think?  I gave it to a bunch of russian fcs with a director's permission, can't remember if it was mittani or sesfan or what) during the first delve invasion.  When was gridfu actually declared an exploit?

November last year

[trevorreznik]

yeah that's hiding the tower, not shrinking the grid.  or is it?  thanks ccp!

for reference-it's possible to shrink the grid so much that the tower effectively disappears.  What actually happens is that when you warp to a moon at 0, the pos is anchored somewhere on that grid, and if you shrink it enough, the warpin at 0 is no longer on the same grid as the pos, making it a bitch to find.  I believe at that point you have to probe it.  Knowing ccp's language, it's impossible to say if shrinking a grid around a pos amounts to what that post says.  Just like with their 'bowling a pos is an exploit' langauge which is unclear exactly what it means

[Pax]

They'd be pretty stupid if they posted something along the lines of "it is not allowed to deploy cans, corpses, shuttles, drones, covert ops ship and other physical bodies in space near warpable objects for the purpose of shrinking their grid to the point of invisibility of said warpable objects, giving those already on the correct and already shrunk grid a potential edge."
Instead, they kept it short and simple so those, who knew what it ment felt adressed.

[Endie]

What has been and what will be..

Overnight we reinforced another bunch of hostile towers.  At one faction tower we managed to lose several dreads and a carrier (some say three capitals in total, others five, but killboards are so spread out amongst the various alliances involved that it's tricky to say for sure), which is mildly embarrassing, but while the raep train may or may not have brakes nobody ever accused it of possessing even adequate suspension.

This morning we had a stack of towers coming out in early Russian/prime-Anzac.  Again, with killing blows coming from assorted, non-cross-posting faggots I imagine that someone like Setar will know better than us what actually died, but our targets for the day turned out to be P4, where Kenny had been madly fuelling 33 towers in order to break sov and have a shot at the R64s which I seem to remember are there (and maybe drop an outpost, who knows?) and W6V, where Skunk-Works (RISE 2.0, basically) had been spamming to break our jump-bridge chain.  For now, we have majority back in P4, and I imagine in W6V, too, though I have to admit that I am too lazy to look up the pos app.

As regards what will be, Molle has called another "big push" for tomorrow.  I imagine that all sorts of red pen references will be being made, as another abject failure would be pretty horrible for them.  After the weekend, Exe repeated the claim that he had been "away", presumably to minimise the damage done by his failed offensive, and despite his being logged in a bunch of times on Shrike and Messiah Killeon during it.  Since he also posted on both the CTAs and the "welp it's lost" orders, I'm not sure how he thinks this will work vOv.  I suppose that some pilots don't read external forums, but rely on their own filtered news and on alliance mails.

Since he intends to use dreads, however, it's probably safe to assume that he has got AAA to agree to back him up again.  Maybe he's just helping them take their R64s back :D

Finally, I got mentioned on SHC as running a one-man campaign against Blade in order to remove their sov.  In fact, I just funded it alone.  I had help on the first day from the F13 posters and Ultrapolite Socialites, and when attacked by a hundred-man Kenny/Barbie gang I had to get help from DBRB.  I'm quite happy that I've now got them spamming to claim sov in their one, last system as it'll (a) get fleet to finish them off at some point and (b0 let me stop blowing money on fuel (while eating theirs in the meantime)...  They're quite aggressive (at one point I was being attacked by gangs every day before the setup would drive them away) but have so far failed to get me since my suicide-fuelling flights in Moas, despite setting up login traps with bubbles for my Rorq (yeah like I stront time on that without scouts).

tl;dr we have kept killing towers every day since the weekend and Molle is coming back again for another try.

Edit: Correction... Kenny still have a majority of large towers in P4, and will thus hold sov until we either swap out some of our smalls for larges or we kill some of their larges.

[trevorreznik]

Feel free to take this with a grain of salt, but i think it's in your interest to not kill a lot of the towers and just let gkc fuel them.  Obviously you need to get system majority for jammers, but other than that, it's very tedious & boring to do that kind of work.  Of course, if towers are left alone, that system gets attacked much easier next time, so it's devil if you do and devil if you don't.

[Endie]

Feel free to take this with a grain of salt, but i think it's in your interest to not kill a lot of the towers and just let gkc fuel them.  Obviously you need to get system majority for jammers, but other than that, it's very tedious & boring to do that kind of work.  Of course, if towers are left alone, that system gets attacked much easier next time, so it's devil if you do and devil if you don't.

It's a gamble, yes, and I think we're doing what you suggest in 3BK for now, but I really suspect there's more gain to be made in morale terms (which is, after all, what ultimately wins all but the most lopsided 0.0 conflicts) by steamrolling when you get the chance.  Also, several of the systems were inexplicable except if they were part of a jump-bridge route, while others looked awfully like candidates for outposts.

Tomorrow we get to see whether Kenny can replicate their performance of two weeks before and gather the numbers to dominate for the first few days of their offensive (and how much of that is down to Russians).

[trevorreznik]

yeah, there's just a super fine line between steamrolling and having people get bored of pos ops.  very hard to balance the two, but if gkc is starting up their offensive again, it'll actually help you because of the possibility of fights

[Trigona]

The Northern Coalition is in this for the long haul.  We're now relocating to 1IY which puts us next to 9C (via jb) and means that all the northern forces are concentrated in Querious.  1IY is only 2 jumps from Empire and serves a couple of useful strategic purposes - it makes our logistics very easy and puts a throttle on Kenny's.  It's amazing how quickly this war can turn, Kenny seemed to be on a roll and if they had taken 1IY and E-D I think the battle for Querious might have been lost, now the shoe is on the other foot.

AAA had better do some successful CTAs or else all will be lost.  Because let's face it, the only reason there is a fight at all is because of -AAA-, Kenny is but a pale shadow of the alliance that plotted the MAX campaign last year.

Which leads to the fundamental nub of the Querious campaign, who is going to occupy this region?

[MahrinSkel]

Which leads to the fundamental nub of the Querious campaign, who is going to occupy this region?

Frankly, I would say you need to talk to Avernus in Imperium Technologies.  If anyone can gather together enough of FIX's lost lambs to reach a critical mass that can grow into an alliance capable of defending Querious, it's him.  In the interest of full disclosure, I have to tell you he was my CEO when I still played, but I haven't talked with him since.  I did a search and found he's still active as of a couple of weeks ago, other than that I know nothing except that Sangre Azul seems to be gone and IT is in another rebuilding phase (it's done it several times, they've gotten good at it).

Whatever you do, you have to realize up front that growing a defender for Querious is going to be a long project, 3-6 months of sheltering them while they grow, 9-12 before they won't need active support on a regular basis.  And you'd be well advised to avoid BoB's mistake, interfering in another alliance's internal process because you think they're weak does *not* make them stronger, nor does constantly dicking around with the terms of your deals with them make them more committed to being your shield.  Full autonomy for them *has* to be your final goal, or you won't get anyone to take you up on it that is capable of doing what is needed.  Don't throw humiliations and guilt trips at them for not being able to stand off your enemies unassisted, or they're going to become hyper-aware that they are primarily facing *your* enemies, and their misfortunes are ultimately caused by you.

Start them out in the Z-UZZN station, and resign yourself to 2-3 months of waiting for them to grow both the numbers and the wealth it will take to become full partners in their own defense.  Expect that by the end you *will* turn over the high-end moons and the choice systems of central and southern Querious, because without that wealth they won't be able to build the strength you need.  Give them the 3-F gateway, Delve's primary lifeline will always be the A2 pipe and a one-gate transit in some remote corner to transfer from their JB chains to yours will be more than adequate for a backup.  You probably want to consider committing to outright granting them 3-4 outpost eggs when they have reached a certain self-defense target, so they can concentrate on building fleets rather than eggs to secure Sov 4 status in Central Querious.

Full control of 49-U and the XLL constellation that represents your southern back door is probably the last step, but it's one you really want to grant them because you *need* that buffer, and they'll need both the resources of the area (the richest constellation in Querious except for one of the "Lost Constellations" that are effectively part of Delve), the potential for expansion that doesn't run into you, and a steady supply of people to shoot at to keep their PvP skills and infrastructure from atrophying.

Remember that you do not need a minion to order about, but an ally with parallel interests.  Do not bind the mouths of the kine that tread the grain, get so attached to the income from Querious resources that you starve them of the material wealth to gain strength, or flood them with renters or other groups that have no commitment to the area but compete with them for its wealth while ignoring their needs.

--Dave

EDIT: The point is that LI-BA0 (the constellation containing 3-F, I1Y, and ED-) is the hinge that the whole southeastern quadrant turns on, and only someone who calls it "home" is going to be able to keep it strong enough to keep you from going through this every month or two until forever.  And something very close to this plan is the only way you're going to get that.  Anyone strong enough to just move in and hold it isn't going to want to, you have to start with someone weak and make them strong, and let the crucible that is Querious shape them from there.

[Slayerik]

In other words, don't be douchebags like BoB.

[Endie]

"We don't have pets. We have allies." - Every GS CEO for years.

[rand]

Would ex-FIX actually want to be blue to goons?

[Simond]

Alternate plan: We Sov4 the entire region with Gallente outposts. 

[Sir T]

On an Interesting note, a combined Tri and RUssian Overlord fleet hotdropped MM capitals yesterday. Having ROL up north is an interesting development and I'm wondering what it means. Will be worth watching.

[Predator Irl]

On an Interesting note, a combined Tri and RUssian Overlord fleet hotdropped MM capitals yesterday. Having ROL up north is an interesting development and I'm wondering what it means. Will be worth watching.

I would imagine it will mean that when Bob finally dies, there will be a lot of bitterness left for -A- and their pets. Nobody wants catch, but I think a lot of people are starting to want -A- blood!

[Endie]

I don't "get" Molle's latest Big Push, which was supposed to start at 1500 Eve Time.  Due to being off on holiday today I was able to join in the Querious fleet that was killing Skunk Works towers, and I was warily keeping an eye on local and didn't offline my MWD, in case of a hot-drop.  As it was, we merrily kept shooting without interruption.  Apparently what they did was try and fail to siege our R64 in ZAU.  They lost a bunch of ships and gave up.  Still, the original kick-off was about 15 minutes ago so maybe they'll get more done now.

Also, Nync was getting all proud of his spy in our fleet and showing off by repeating what was said in our fleet, while getting mighty butthurt by DBRB trolling AAA (who gets worked up about DBRB trolling them?!?).  So, with the help off our spy in their TS we were able to timestamp, locate and boot their spy.  Ta for the counter-intel coup, Nync.

[Yoru]

Espionage discussion and tomfoolery split over here.

[Pezzle]

Providence forces had a fight with AAA and friends in Catch yesterday.  A mixed gang of 100 or so (possibly separate friendly gangs, 30 minutes of action on the auto summary.  I am not sure how many AAA actually had.  We downed a Triage carrier and around a dozen battleships.  2 hostile DD'd (with more in system, double the number online elsewhere) probably ended the fight.  CVA lost 10 battleships, a couple of cruisers and a small number of frigs.  Remaining fleet came home.

[Insanemus]

An uninhabited Querious doesn't get defended as strongly as it needs to be, and a Querious held by a GS that lives in Delve will be a ghost town like most of the South was. But none of our allies that could hold it wanted it (most of them have better space elsewhere - and if UNL loses in the East, I get the same impression as Endie that they have other plans), so we're stuck with it as our soft underbelly. Welp.

People really shouldn't keep repeating this it's just silly. With bridges Querious is 1 jump fron nol-. It's 2 jumps from Goonswarm's de facto capital system. It's infinitely more defensible than the Swarm's old assets in Esoteria, Feythabolis, Scalding Pass, let alone Geminate/Kevala. And it can all be Sov 4ed eventually. The idea that goons won't be bothered to defend it, because it will have a lower ratio or ratters is absurd nonsense. And when it eventually gets entirely Sov 4ed it won't be much of a soft underbelly. Goonswarm should really keep Querious.

[Quinton]

The impression I get is that there is a strong belief among some that one of the problems with the swarm's holdings in the south was that we had "too much space" and people were spread out and many systems were empty, etc.  It seems like this "all we need is delve" thing is a consequence of that belief -- that things will be better / more fun / more maintainable if everyone's more concentrated.

[Predator Irl]

People really shouldn't keep repeating this it's just silly. With bridges Querious is 1 jump fron nol-. It's 2 jumps from Goonswarm's de facto capital system. It's infinitely more defensible than the Swarm's old assets in Esoteria, Feythabolis, Scalding Pass, let alone Geminate/Kevala. And it can all be Sov 4ed eventually. The idea that goons won't be bothered to defend it, because it will have a lower ratio or ratters is absurd nonsense. And when it eventually gets entirely Sov 4ed it won't be much of a soft underbelly. Goonswarm should really keep Querious.

I have to agree with this, its really not an issue to defend against random attacks considering the JB network. Once the war is over, any attacks from small alliances will be crushed and major attacks will involve allies no doubt.
The only reason Goons would want someone in that space is because we are so f**kin lazy!

[Endie]

Insanemus in with a bullet.  I agree with this that the numerous ways of supplying Querious, and our reliance on it as a route into Delve, means that we should hold lots of it, though there is no reason why a smaller ally in need might not be able to make use of two or three constellations.

Personally, since I tend only to mine etc once every six months or so for a few weeks (lol six-boxing) I'm looking forward to leaving a couple of alts in Querious with a command ship and a carrier to assign fighters and joining in camping empire gates and the like, and i know I'm far from alone in that plan.  Another alt will be up north with the foreign legion, hopefully, while the rest will be spending their weekends defending R64s from AAA and Stain every week, or getting shot by PL...

[Meester]

Daruis his latest post (1 of them), talked about Skunk-Works being the latest iteration of RISE.
However it is more probabale that it is in fact Fallen Souls with a bunch of ex-RISE corps joining.

I think where the current GZC members origins are correct (the ones that are left). Theres probably a mixture of other GBC/BoB entities among them (within the alliances). Correct me if I am wrong and miss out current GZC members. And I refer to BoB in the past tense. Sorry if I bore you 

T O R M E N T U M - ex-Axiom Empire. Axiom also used to be Fountain GBC residents.
Aeternus - also ex-Axiom
Blade. - ex-Xelas Alliance and ex-Fountain. Loyal BoB allies in Xelas.
Strip Mining Club - comes from Warped Mining, which is a corp that was allied with BoB in Delve.
Executive Outcomes - Used to have an Esoteria station that was taken in the Pendulum Wars/Great War/something war(s). Maybe ex-Ascendent Frontier (quite likely).
Skunk-Works - Quite sure that they are ex-Fallen Souls who helped BoB in a number of theatres until their systems were overran in Paragon Soul
Beachboys  - Don't know their real origin. Helped BoB. Mostly polish?
Frontal Impact - From M8's which lived in Delve for quite a long time I believe and then they made an alliance.
Confederation of Independent Corporations - Lived among BoB in Delve for some time. Don't know their origins or when they moved in.
Hun Reloaded - Might still have one or two members fighting. Don't really know their origins but they were Fountain folk I believe. Maybe made up of loyal BoB allies in an alliance called The Hun?
R.U.R. - Came from Rytiri Lva who were Fountain folk and BoB allies for some time.
Southern Connection - ex-Ascendent Frontier I believe. Lost their territory when the RedSwarm Federation took Feythabolis.
Southern Cross Alliance - no idea of origin but ANZAC Alliance seems their main corp. Fought against the RedSwarm Federation but not entirely sure if they were pure BoB allies then (maybe allied to BoB in the middle of the fighting). Possibly former Stain residents.