The Warrior situation in BC

[Triforcer]

Agree about the composition of groups in instances.  I'll do Underbog or Mana Tombs or Crypts once and blow through it in <2 hours with no deaths, and then do it with a (differently composed) group three levels higher that wipes five times.  Its gotten to the point now where I ask if the group has a mage or an imp. sap rogue before I'll even PUG (there is nothing sadder in this world than a rogue trying to instance w/o imp. sap).  If it doesn't have one of the two, I'm out.

[Fabricated]

Agree about the composition of groups in instances.  I'll do Underbog or Mana Tombs or Crypts once and blow through it in <2 hours with no deaths, and then do it with a (differently composed) group three levels higher that wipes five times.  Its gotten to the point now where I ask if the group has a mage or an imp. sap rogue before I'll even PUG (there is nothing sadder in this world than a rogue trying to instance w/o imp. sap).  If it doesn't have one of the two, I'm out.

I've done Mana-Tombs and Underbog many times with no CC at all, and it SUCKS. The Mana-Tombs has the most irritating trash I've ever seen in a 5-man, even over the Crypts. It's doable though, you just gotta have spot-on healing and concentrated DPS.

[Phred]

Oh for shadow labs pain try a group with 2 level 70 mages. They are basically useless for the entire fight as the second they get mind controlled all their mana is blown on the most pointless mana intensive crap. Their DPS was lower in the fight than me and I am a prot speced warrior.

That boss fight and a few others I have seen are very group composition dependent. With the right group they are totally trivial but stack the wrong stuff and it gets WAY tougher.

For that crazy group mind control people you do NOT want all your DPS to be mana users hell the fewer mana users there the better.

I've done this fight a lot and it seems to go smoother once a couple of ppl are dead. :)

[ClydeJr]

Yeah.  I was looking forward to Spell Reflect and, don't get me wrong, it's still hilarious, but just not terribly useful.

Watching an enemy warlock immolate himself is just luv tho.

It requires nearly ninja-like timing to stop anything you'd really like to stop in most boss fights. I've found it really useful for soloing since it bounces nearly any kind of debuff back at the caster.

It was really helpful on the final boss in the Ring of Blood in Nagrand. He's a big ogre shammy and occasionally does a slow casting lightning bolt. 25 rage for sending a 2k+ bolt back at him? Yes please. Unfortunately it seems a lot of boss spells can't be reflected back.

[jpark]

So how much defense is enough?

Right now I walk around with about 470 Def - tending toward putting on more def gear than STA gear for trash and easy bosses.  To my knoweldge, I never get criticaled.

Any suggestions on numbers here?

[Zetor]

490 is the "don't get crit by lv73 bosses" cut-off, iirc.


-- Z.

[jpark]

Thanks for that info - Cheers.

[Zetor]

Apparently warriors are getting a significant buff in the next patch while droods are getting beat with the nerf stick.

Will be interesting to see just how useful Thunderclap is for multi-tanking.. unlike consecrate, it only affects 4 targets and is mitigated by armor (not to mention the 20 rage cost), but it does pretty respectable threat now.


-- Z.

[jpark]

Thanks for that - looking at the notes - nice changes for warriors - looking at the changes for druid - it is not quite clear to me the effect:

"Dire Bear Form" now grants 25% increased stamina instead of 25% increased health. In addition, the armor bonus has been reduced from 450% to 400%.

Does this mean an increase or decrease to the druid hit point pool in bear form?

[Merusk]

Thanks for that - looking at the notes - nice changes for warriors - looking at the changes for druid - it is not quite clear to me the effect:

"Dire Bear Form" now grants 25% increased stamina instead of 25% increased health. In addition, the armor bonus has been reduced from 450% to 400%.

Does this mean an increase or decrease to the druid hit point pool in bear form?

 A decrease, but not a big one.   They should still wind up with the same +hp from stamina but their base health and any +hp items/ spells won't be included in that 25% increase anymore. 

Ed: Ow, fuck shadow priests took it in the PvE ass.

[lamaros]

Thanks for that - looking at the notes - nice changes for warriors - looking at the changes for druid - it is not quite clear to me the effect:

"Dire Bear Form" now grants 25% increased stamina instead of 25% increased health. In addition, the armor bonus has been reduced from 450% to 400%.

Does this mean an increase or decrease to the druid hit point pool in bear form?

 A decrease, but not a big one.   They should still wind up with the same +hp from stamina but their base health and any +hp items/ spells won't be included in that 25% increase anymore. 

Ed: Ow, fuck shadow priests took it in the PvE ass.

it was expected. the problem of VE being crazytown with dps scaling isn't going to go away though.

[Triforcer]

As a 68 druid, this is exactly the reason why when I resubscribed from BC I went balance- I saw this coming a mile away.  I'd do "who" surveys on the 1-20 population and find triple the number of druids from before.  Although I must confess I thought it would be at least two patches before this happened.

[Ironwood]

"Unbridled Wrath" has been modified so that rather than a fixed chance to grant rage, it has an increased chance when using slower weapons.

What ?

[Merusk]

Apparently UB was a chance-per-hit rather than a proc-per-minute talent.  Explains why the time I fucked with daggers in my early 30s I had a shitton of rage.

[Ironwood]

No, I get that, I just don't get the rationale behind the change.

[Shrike]

It's to make rage generation with 2h weapons easier. Especially for 2h fury.

What concerns me is Blizzard's changes always seem to run up against the law of unintended consequences. I truly fear for DW fury warriors at this point. Things are looking up for arms, however. Hopefully, this will make life easier for arms or fury tanks in 5 mans.

Time will tell.

[Ironwood]

Um, you don't say.

I get that too.  I'm still waiting for someone to explain the rationale behind it.

2Handers - More Damage, Slower Rage.  It's a tradeoff, right ?  Except not anymore, now you can have cake AND eat it !  Awesome.

Like Shields.  Less Rage, More Defense.  And some extra abilities.  Another Tradeoff.  Except now...Shit, it's still the same.

[Fabricated]

Yayyyy, I may not suck at Multi-target aggro anymore! Thunderclap is going to rapidly become my favorite rage dump after Shield Slam.

Also, hahahah, Blizz again puts a stick in the eye of the Pre-BC raiders:

• The threat generated from the spell effect on "Thunderfury" has been substantially reduced.

edit agian: I saw the druid/shadow priest nerfs/etc. and went to FoH for some personal amusement and saw this post:

Proving my suspicion further that you were one of these late arrivals to the game who came in on the coat tails of the first few months of the game. Back before Ony/MC or even DM when you could ask the best guild around "Can you 5 man Drakk" and they would say hell no.

Look you little noob shit, karazhan is introductory asshole content. You claiming that your pally can tank it amounts to as much as a shadow priest being able to tank UBRS in the grand scheme of things. You have people running it and clearing a large part of it still wearing gear in some slots they got before they even hit the fucking 70 level cap. The shits easy, if your guild doesn't have their heads up their asses learning two bosses a night is pretty much standard. Remember Naxx? Wasn't too long ago. Already forget beating your dick with a hammer on Patchwerk, Lotheb, 4H? Chances are no in your case but rest assured it took a long more effort and time than the current "endgame daycare" that is Karazhan. Same thing with MC, AQ40, shit even ZG the real WoW end game has traditionally started when you spend your entire night in an instance and fail to down a new boss despite your best efforts. Don't see that happening in Karazhan.

Jesus, serious business.

[Trouble]

Um, you don't say.

I get that too.  I'm still waiting for someone to explain the rationale behind it.

2Handers - More Damage, Slower Rage.  It's a tradeoff, right ?  Except not anymore, now you can have cake AND eat it !  Awesome.

Like Shields.  Less Rage, More Defense.  And some extra abilities.  Another Tradeoff.  Except now...Shit, it's still the same.

Except the problem is that their damage is a direct result of how much rage they have. Two handed fury warriors blow ass because their rage generation blows. Two handed fury warriors right now are the king of damage, although it's not as extreme as it was before 2.0. When agro isn't a huge limiter, the 2h fury warrior in our guild still tops the charts, and that's before the buff they will get in 2.0.10. 2h furry warriors are...nowhere to be seen.

[angry.bob]

Not really related to warriors, but I thought I'd toss it in here. Apparently there are some pretty severe Paladin nerfs to paladin tankability on the test server that have the Pally board going apshit. My personal favorite being the 15% damage reduction during after being bubbled that has people saying if it goes live they're going to run around grief-bubbling people to get it changed.

Seriously, the class doesn't need a nerf... at all.

[Ironwood]

Um, you don't say.

I get that too.  I'm still waiting for someone to explain the rationale behind it.

2Handers - More Damage, Slower Rage.  It's a tradeoff, right ?  Except not anymore, now you can have cake AND eat it !  Awesome.

Like Shields.  Less Rage, More Defense.  And some extra abilities.  Another Tradeoff.  Except now...Shit, it's still the same.

Except the problem is that their damage is a direct result of how much rage they have. Two handed fury warriors blow ass because their rage generation blows. Two handed fury warriors right now are the king of damage, although it's not as extreme as it was before 2.0. When agro isn't a huge limiter, the 2h fury warrior in our guild still tops the charts, and that's before the buff they will get in 2.0.10. 2h furry warriors are...nowhere to be seen.

Can we redraft that so there's a difference between a two handed weapon and a warrior that uses a weapon in both hands ?  You didn't make much sense for me beyond the first line.  Also, the patch being 2.0 confused me even more.  At least you didn't talk about the weapon speed being 2.0 as well.


Furry warriors.  You mean Tauren ?

[Merusk]

Furry warriors.  You mean Tauren ?

I hear tell that human female warriors don't shave...

[Simond]

My personal favorite being the 15% damage reduction during after being bubbled that has people saying if it goes live they're going to run around grief-bubbling people to get it changed.

Genius.

[Morfiend]

Pretty bummed about the pally changes.

Also, Avenging Wrath now shares its cooldown with Devine shield. Also, If a priest uses Mass Dispel it will automatically target a buff effect that provides immunity to damage first. Meh I am not happy.

[jpark]

Not really related to warriors, but I thought I'd toss it in here. Apparently there are some pretty severe Paladin nerfs to paladin tankability on the test server that have the Pally board going apshit. My personal favorite being the 15% damage reduction during after being bubbled that has people saying if it goes live they're going to run around grief-bubbling people to get it changed.

Seriously, the class doesn't need a nerf... at all.

Well that depends.  As horde we are used to putting up with paladins in pvp - so no big deal either way... BUT alliance has never had to fight paladins before.  When the gaming demographic introduces pallies on the horde side in force for pvp - the wail on the alliance boards - I predict - will be deafening :)

Pally nerfs are coming.  And they will be based on the games strongest lobby group - alliance - affecting both tanking (and healing) for paladins.  I am not arguing this is justified - just that it will likely come given the gaming dynamic.  Druid tanking has received a small nerf, and warriors just received a nice buff - I am thinking paladins will get a series of small nerfs as well - but not for awhile.

[angry.bob]

Pally nerfs are coming.  And they will be based on the games strongest lobby group - alliance - affecting both tanking (and healing) for paladins.  I am not arguing this is justified - just that it will likely come given the gaming dynamic.  Druid tanking has received a small nerf, and warriors just received a nice buff - I am thinking paladins will get a series of small nerfs as well - but not for awhile.

I just really don't get that though. I don't disagree, but paladins were a complete shit class to until a couple months ago, they're barely viable as it is, and these nerfs completely fucking destroy the class for PvP and a lot of PvE. Seriously. Meanwhile both sides have been screaming all over the boards about warlocks and hunters, both of which are beyond any possible argument overpowered in every sense and every facet of the game. But nothing is ever done about them. Warlocks in particular need to get monkeyfucked endlessly - especially if they're balancing shit off of Arena PvP, which is what they seem to be doing.

[Merusk]

Nobody's yelling about hunters anymore.  As predicted, lack of +crit gear at 70, +crit scaling as well as the reduced amt of Agi on items fixed them nicely.

Locks, however...

[Xanthippe]

I just really don't get that though. I don't disagree, but paladins were a complete shit class to until a couple months ago, they're barely viable as it is, and these nerfs completely fucking destroy the class for PvP and a lot of PvE. Seriously. Meanwhile both sides have been screaming all over the boards about warlocks and hunters, both of which are beyond any possible argument overpowered in every sense and every facet of the game. But nothing is ever done about them. Warlocks in particular need to get monkeyfucked endlessly - especially if they're balancing shit off of Arena PvP, which is what they seem to be doing.

Nobody is screaming about hunters anymore.  For a dps class, hunters are spectacularly underpowered now.

[DevilsAdvocate]

I just really don't get that though. I don't disagree, but paladins were a complete shit class to until a couple months ago, they're barely viable as it is, and these nerfs completely fucking destroy the class for PvP and a lot of PvE. Seriously. Meanwhile both sides have been screaming all over the boards about warlocks and hunters, both of which are beyond any possible argument overpowered in every sense and every facet of the game. But nothing is ever done about them. Warlocks in particular need to get monkeyfucked endlessly - especially if they're balancing shit off of Arena PvP, which is what they seem to be doing.

Nobody is screaming about hunters anymore.  For a dps class, hunters are spectacularly underpowered now.

/AGREED. Now that my Hunter is level 69, I am just about at the same level of RAP and dps that I was at at level 60. Of course, I am a Survival Hunter who was completely invested in Agility. I'm now in love with all things "of the Bandit". I have 9k hp and around 1285 RAP. I figure at level 70, I might actually start heading into the area where I feel like I am doing more damage and kicking more ass than I was 10 levels ago.

I will say this though: Steady Shot and Pet Execute (Kill Command) help my dps quite a bit. And my druid girlfriend thinks I kill things a hell of a lot faster than she does. But, she's tree specced, so that's kind of a given.

[Merusk]

Hunters who use anything other than steady shot make me cry, because they obviously have MUCH slower bows than my poor 2.8s bow or twitch reflexes from hell.

 My entire life is Autoshot - Steady Shot - Autoshot - Steady Shot - Autoshot - Steady Shot - Autoshot - Steady Shot - Autoshot - Steady Shot

[Triforcer]

The Warlock question is the greatest mystery in the game to me.  During the course of the game, almost EVERY OTHER CLASS has had a short period of overpoweredness.  This would be followed, 1-2 patches after, by huge nerfs.  The pattern holds for every single class EXCEPT warlocks.  Their lack of nerfage defies the entire course the game has taken in every other way.  I can only surmise that Bliz's CEO's wife/girlfriend is a warlock and he gets a blowjob for every new buff they get. 

[MrHat]

So he gets buffed when they get buffed?

bum-bum-bum-ching!

[Paelos]

Locks were gimped for a looooooooooong time before they got buffed if yall remember correctly. There was a massive exodus from the class once people hit 60 after release in my guild and raiding alliance. They only came back to them after the love patch came in. They could use a retool in the sense of fears and a few other things, but I'm not really that upset by their damage. I'd like to see dots not work in pvp while your target is getting feared all over creation. It just seems a little cheap to me, not to mention that's how they farm tough shit solo in pve.

Pallies, I don't know what kind of nerfs they'd need in pvp since I don't do it, but as usual I'd like to see buffs to their healing powers for raiding purposes.

[Trouble]

Hunters who use anything other than steady shot make me cry, because they obviously have MUCH slower bows than my poor 2.8s bow or twitch reflexes from hell.

 My entire life is Autoshot - Steady Shot - Autoshot - Steady Shot - Autoshot - Steady Shot - Autoshot - Steady Shot - Autoshot - Steady Shot

The hunters in my guild do quite good dps, but they also work a hell of a lot at making it good. You might try throwing some arcane shots in there as well. You can fit it in after steady shots and before autoshots without extending any timers. The hunters in my guild also spend fortunes on consumables as well to increase their dps. Fel strength, agility, onslaught, mageblood, and more are all part of their set of normal buffs. Chugging mana pots as well to keep up with all their shots the entire fight is not out of the norm also. The result is that they can keep up with and sometimes exceed the rest of our damage dealers.

[Morat20]

Hunters who use anything other than steady shot make me cry, because they obviously have MUCH slower bows than my poor 2.8s bow or twitch reflexes from hell.

 My entire life is Autoshot - Steady Shot - Autoshot - Steady Shot - Autoshot - Steady Shot - Autoshot - Steady Shot - Autoshot - Steady Shot

The hunters in my guild do quite good dps, but they also work a hell of a lot at making it good. You might try throwing some arcane shots in there as well. You can fit it in after steady shots and before autoshots without extending any timers. The hunters in my guild also spend fortunes on consumables as well to increase their dps. Fel strength, agility, onslaught, mageblood, and more are all part of their set of normal buffs. Chugging mana pots as well to keep up with all their shots the entire fight is not out of the norm also. The result is that they can keep up with and sometimes exceed the rest of our damage dealers.

You can only squeeze in the Arcane shot with a slow weapon -- else you bump the auto-shot. And chugging pots like fucking mad to "keep up with the rest of the damage dealers" is incredible bullshit UNLESS the other damage dealers are also chugging pots.

Now, given hunters have some utility which lowers their DPS -- but still, a MM-specced hunter should be in the same ballpark as a fire-specced mage, if they're both putting the same effort into it.

Ironically, hunters might get a little damage buff as time goes on.

How's Viper at endgame? The mana regen on that should help -- it seems Blizzard's view is we're supposed to keep up the DPS after the mages keel over from lack of mana. I just don't see it happening, even with properly geared hunters.