Looting in PVP

[Rithrin]

You know, I really didn't like the Matrix movies. Everyone I know loves 'em to death, though.

Err, I assume that was directed at me. Although I don't really see what any of this has to do with the Matrix - that was all about bullet time and whatnot, right?

[ajax34i]

This cannot happen in an AI-only encounter. There's always going to be some algorythm that the players will figure out to get around it. Players are still the most devious, most clever (Well.. some at least) opponents you can ever hope to face. They know that frieghter has the good stuff in it, they can see its weaknesses and exploit it to the most. Currently AI scripts seem to only go so far as "Attack whoever did the most damage to me" and "Spam Ability_01".

I think PVP is as limited as AI, though, in this aspect.  You see, a game with PVP still has to have rules, the devs cannot let the players be completely free.  There are still rules that govern how the game is played, and they restrict the playerbase's imagination.  You might have wild ideas about what to do, and fresh new tactics, but you'll only be able to implement SOME of them.  And eventually the players will figure out all the possibilities that the game allows, and counters to them; it just takes longer than figuring out AI.

Take EVE, and one thing that I keep hearing complaints about... logoffski.  Why does that happen?  Because those with experience can just look at what ship you're flying and they know 90% of the scenarios your brain could come up with that the game will allow.  It took 3 years, ok, but it's happening, despite a plethora of modules, ammo types, skills, and other modifiers that supposedly randomize the fight so it's "unexpected."  Whatever ship you're flying, the tutorials out there on how to PVP against it are pretty much the same thing as the pointers (elsewhere) on how to win an Onyxia fight.

You're AI.

[Rithrin]

Yes, true, players will always have a set amount of things they can do. The kind of "options" and "strategy" I'm talking about here are more akin to something like the Battlefield line of games. Sure, you know that the enemy in front of you has a BAUR-44 Assault Rifle (The good one). You know it outclasses your standard issue assult rifle in damage and firing speed. However, you've got him on accuracy. He knows this as well. So you duck behind a wall, however he doesn't follow. You peak around the corner in time to see him digging himself into some cover to give him the advantage. He knows that if you try to defeat him in a shoot out in that position, he'll win. You are aware of that, too. But you think quick and before he can turn enough to shoot you down, you've already dropped a grenade at his feet. Bamf. You loot some spare ammo and grenades.

Its the lack of this style of gameplay in EVE that bothers me as much as I praise it for other things. In the above example both players "know 90% of the scenarios your brain could come up with" but instead of it coming down to an automatic win, its judging what you believe your opponent will do next as well as what he might be thinking you're going to do next and so on. It's pretty simple... shoot out, find cover, flush him out of cover, charge, or grenade him. Yet because of the dynamics of the game each one of those options can be altered or changed around buildings, vehicles, other players, different weapons, etc to create many more options. In a system like EVE the battle is mainly decided in your hangar instead of during the actual fight. Thus you start to lose the unexpectedness of combat, instead of gain depth (Hm, is that the right word?).

Whatever ship you're flying, the tutorials out there on how to PVP against it are pretty much the same thing as the pointers (elsewhere) on how to win an Onyxia fight.

Which is exactly the problem. Same reason combat in a game should be more than just "Spam your most powerful ability". The other options should be just as viable and effective.

[Riggswolfe]

You're touching on something here that I've often thought Rithrin. MMOs by their very nature don't work that great for awesome pvp battles. Putting all the other BS aside in this topic I truly believe that. The player base has too many varied expectations, and for most, there is too much time investment to make "meaningful" pvp worthwile because people dislike feeling like they've flushed that time down the toilet. Add to that the fact that most MMOs minimize player skill (for instance, AC is one of the few MMOs where you can physically dodge certain types of attacks by moving your avatar.) and that gear tips the balance of battle and you have a recipe for pvp that just doesn't have the right possibilities.

Honestly, the most fun, engaging pvp I've ever experienced was not in a MMO environment. It was in various FPS for basically the reasons you've mentioned, player skill in a FPS is paramount over all but uncontrollable variables. (bad connections, etc.) Combat is fast and furious and you have to think on your feet, and most modern FPS have some sort of goal built in. Losing is relatively painless though it still sucks. Compare that to MMO pvp where losing, especially in the environment the OP wants, punishes you and makes your next battle even harder.

[rk47]

I question why those so called 'skillful' pvpers would prefer to play a competitive RPG than sticking to a competitive FPS instead, since there is level gap, gear difference involved in RPG...I would suppose they consider such barriers to uberness 'harder to achieve' and possibly as a form of 'shield' ? Because no matter how good the player is, if he's 10 levels below his opponent, he cannot win. So the timesink into grinding is the strength, further seperating the hardcore and the softcore. You don't see softcore people so willing to risk it , while the hardcore people minimizing their risk by playing 10 hours a day and gaining more HP, Lvl and Bling, is able to lower the risk of losing to the point that he's willing to risk it.

[Slayerik]

I question why those so called 'skillful' pvpers would prefer to play a competitive RPG than sticking to a competitive FPS instead, since there is level gap, gear difference involved in RPG...I would suppose they consider such barriers to uberness 'harder to achieve' and possibly as a form of 'shield' ? Because no matter how good the player is, if he's 10 levels below his opponent, he cannot win. So the timesink into grinding is the strength, further seperating the hardcore and the softcore. You don't see softcore people so willing to risk it , while the hardcore people minimizing their risk by playing 10 hours a day and gaining more HP, Lvl and Bling, is able to lower the risk of losing to the point that he's willing to risk it.

Some of us 'skillful' PVPers can still like what comes with a persistant world. Investment into your character, reputation, guild warfare, etc... Why must we be considered so different to the core than a PVEer, we really aren't.

EDIT: And also, you dont see non-hardcore guilds expecting to be able to own Naxx in WoW. "While the hardcore people minimizing their risk by playing 10 hours a day and gaining more HP, Lvl and Bling, is able to lower the risk of losing to the point that he's willing to risk it. " Minimizing loss in a PvE encounter the same way as a PVP would PVP fights. By doing that more, being better and "hardcore" and knowing how to win the fights.

[Surlyboi]

You know, I really didn't like the Matrix movies. Everyone I know loves 'em to death, though.

Err, I assume that was directed at me. Although I don't really see what any of this has to do with the Matrix - that was all about bullet time and whatnot, right?

Wasn't directed at you, was directed at LC.

[LC]

You know, I really didn't like the Matrix movies. Everyone I know loves 'em to death, though.

Err, I assume that was directed at me. Although I don't really see what any of this has to do with the Matrix - that was all about bullet time and whatnot, right?

Wasn't directed at you, was directed at LC.

I don't get it either.

[Bunk]

Wow, quite the thread here guys. Six pages in two days, and that last four pages worth almost unbearable to read.

I'm going to ignore all that and post my description of AC Darktide pvp looting, because I think it worked the best out of any of the systems. Take from it what you will.

In AC equipment mattered, but wasn't hard to come by. The thing was, it was extremely random. A given weapon could have four or five different random elements, not including appearance. Finding a "good" item wasn't hard. Finding good items with the perfect balance of qualities, and the right look was tough though. In AC it mattered if your armor pieces matched or not :)

Another factor, was that because of the randomness in appearance and color, sometimes people's equipment would actually get recognizable. Everyone who new a particular anti on the shard new she used a pink Yumi for example. On top of that, you could also "engrave" an item with your name. Which was cool, because if you took something from someone, you would always know who you took it from.

So the way the system worked, was that you would drop roughly one random loot item when you died per ten levels you had. This was anytime you died, pvp or pve. Anyone could loot it. The system always tried to pick one of your most valuable items to drop, so people carried what became known as "death items". Generally, these were easy to acquire items like mana stones or jewelry that had little in game value, but a higher cost than most of your equipment. 95% of the time, you would only drop death items when you died. If you dropped death items frequently enough, you'd have to farm a lot more to make enough money to restock them.

So, why would I care if my opponents never drop anything of real value? Simple, it caused attrition. Like other games, you could come running back from the lifestone after you died and keep fighting. Thing was, each time you did so, you'd drop more death items, until eventually your stock ran out. So eventually, you'd be forced to retreat or risk losing real items.

This was important because in AC, territory mattered. You could only afford to tie to a lifestone that you and your friends controlled, or you were at risk of getting repeatedly ganked until you started losing all of your decent items. If someone took control of you lifestone area, basically your only choice was to retreat to a new lifestone - which would likely be a considerable distance away - until you could gather enough friends to retake your area. This is what actually lead to the control of towns in AC, and resulted in a relatively stable political structure.  When you took a lifestone (and thus the town it was near), it would often change hands for weeks at a time. We were actually able to create political maps showing which guilds controlled which areas of the world.

All because dieing mattered.

[Surlyboi]

You know, I really didn't like the Matrix movies. Everyone I know loves 'em to death, though.

Err, I assume that was directed at me. Although I don't really see what any of this has to do with the Matrix - that was all about bullet time and whatnot, right?

Wasn't directed at you, was directed at LC.

I don't get it either.

You wouldn't.

[Koyasha]

It makes no mathematical sense to design a game that punishes the loser by making them more likely to lose.

But it makes sense to create a game where the loser wins?


I wonder how monopoly would work if you received a loan from the bank every time you went bankrupt.

Are you functionally retarded LC? Noone is talking about a game where the loser wins. To use your monopoly analogy, Valmorian is saying that it would be like a monopoly game where everytime you lose you start with less money the next time you play.

The difference in concepts I see here is this - continuing the Monopoly example, one idea is that each PvP encounter or battle is the equivalent to a single game of Monopoly.  The other is that the entire game, from character creation onward, is the equivalent of a single game of Monopoly, and each PvP encounter or battle is the equivalent of a single turn.  According to the first idea, losing a PvP encounter shouldn't cause you to lose anything because the next will be a 'different game' in which you should start on even ground.  According to the latter idea, losing a PvP encounter is much like landing on an opponent's square in Monopoly, in which you pay money to your opponent, thereby decreasing your supply and increasing his, and this should of course carry on to each successive turn in the overall game.

[ahoythematey]

I'm going to ignore all that and post my description of AC Darktide pvp looting, because I think it worked the best out of any of the systems. Take from it what you will.

/snip/

I wish you wouldn't post things like this.  It makes me overly nostalgic and I already promised myself that resubbing to that game 4 times was plenty.

[Fordel]

The difference in concepts I see here is this - continuing the Monopoly example, one idea is that each PvP encounter or battle is the equivalent to a single game of Monopoly.  The other is that the entire game, from character creation onward, is the equivalent of a single game of Monopoly, and each PvP encounter or battle is the equivalent of a single turn.  According to the first idea, losing a PvP encounter shouldn't cause you to lose anything because the next will be a 'different game' in which you should start on even ground.  According to the latter idea, losing a PvP encounter is much like landing on an opponent's square in Monopoly, in which you pay money to your opponent, thereby decreasing your supply and increasing his, and this should of course carry on to each successive turn in the overall game.

Wouldn't the key difference in both examples be that Monopoly eventually ends? You go bankrupt in Monopoly, your done till the next time you play. You go "Bankrupt" in a MMO, and your done, the end. I'm guessing most people don't start with less, they just don't start up again at all. Wasn't that ShadowBanes major nontechnical flaw? Once your guild and its city were boned, you had no where else to go?

[Koyasha]

Wouldn't the key difference in both examples be that Monopoly eventually ends? You go bankrupt in Monopoly, your done till the next time you play. You go "Bankrupt" in a MMO, and your done, the end. I'm guessing most people don't start with less, they just don't start up again at all. Wasn't that ShadowBanes major nontechnical flaw? Once your guild and its city were boned, you had no where else to go?

Basically true, yes.  In some games you lose so much that the thought of starting over is far too daunting to even consider.  Shadowbane being an excellent example of this.  Shadowbane had other problems, in that, once your guild lost, it was nearly impossible to rebuild a power base, since the victor could know where you are, come along, and smash you to rubble before you even get settled again.

I'll say this - as long as building up your strength is reasonably fun, losing it all isn't that bad.  The ideas of a game that gives you a 'baseline' from which you can compete, and allows you to build up from there without ever falling below a certain level seem like the best way to implement something like this.  Another idea that was presented earlier seems also very useful in building a viable system like this.  If you can lose it in pvp, it also gets earned in pvp.  If there is PvE involved in the game, then the PvE stuff cannot be lost through PvP.  This makes it a lot like Planetside, except that when you die, instead of refitting yourself with the best weapons you're certed for, you would refit in a baseline outfit and have to go out and earn your better weapons all over again.  But you could still get out there and kill people.

Personally I believe there's enough of a market for a hardcore pvp game to be successful in the sense that this could make a reasonable amount of money for someone.  However, the problem is as stated earlier.  People don't want to build the next Eve, the next Ultima Online, or the next Asheron's Call.  They want numbers at least as big as EverQuest or Final Fantasy XI, and most people just want to make the next WoW.  The sooner people get the hint that that is not going to happen, the better for actual new ideas and games that appeal to the tens of thousands of players rather than the hundreds of thousands or millions.  You don't need to make WoW-level money to be a profitable business, and attempting to directly compete with WoW is, at this time, sheer folly.  1% of WoW's player base is 80,000 people.  0.5% is 40,000.  Even that many people is enough to make a profit if that's roughly the amount you were aiming for.  Only if you budget and expect to get 300,000 and you only get 40,000, are you going to be losing money on such a deal.

I suspect that at least 0.5% of the population of WoW might be interested in a hardcore pvp mmog with looting - but with baselines to make sure it doesn't get as bad as Shadowbane's 'lose and never ever build up again' mechanics.

[Jayce]

most people just want to make the next WoW.

I submit that any money folks who want to make the next WoW don't understand the space well enough to make the other good decisions necessary to succeed, much less with a PvP+ game.

[Sairon]

Don't know if it's been said already, but the problem with looting in PvP isn't the loss of items, it's more specifically the loss of time. That's why I think Shadowbane had a really great system. If you were out grinding PvE, which just as in all games is freaking mindless and unexciting, you always were a little thrilled because you knew that there could pop up someone and kill you. Since you couldn't drop equipped stuff it was a question of how long did you dare to PvE before heading back to bank your loot & cash. This meant that you always had control of how large your eventual loss would be when you got killed, so there wasn't any "shit, I just dropped my irreplaceable über weapon, better of quitting now", since you would always have that weapon equipped and safe.

[Morat20]

Don't know if it's been said already, but the problem with looting in PvP isn't the loss of items, it's more specifically the loss of time. That's why I think Shadowbane had a really great system. If you were out grinding PvE, which just as in all games is freaking mindless and unexciting, you always were a little thrilled because you knew that there could pop up someone and kill you. Since you couldn't drop equipped stuff it was a question of how long did you dare to PvE before heading back to bank your loot & cash. This meant that you always had control of how large your eventual loss would be when you got killed, so there wasn't any "shit, I just dropped my irreplaceable über weapon, better of quitting now", since you would always have that weapon equipped and safe.

I think I just bolded the critical flaw there.

Most people don't find playing the PvE game "freaking mindless and unexciting". They enjoy it -- it's why they play it. The mindset of "I'll grind PvE so I can get to the real game -- the PvP" is utterly alien to most people.

If I'm out playing PvE, I'm having fun playing PvE. Someone trying to gank me is interrupting my fucking fun. If I lose money or stuff, that's even more of a fucking pisser. If he then camps my corpse, I'm quitting because it's obvious my fun is over.

People who don't find PvE fundamentally boring do not find forced PvP a positive experience. They do not consider it "Exciting". It does not add anything to their game. It is, at best, a fucking irritation they have to put up with.

WoW managed -- through dint of making PvP no-loss, segmented by server, by flag, and by zone -- to make this far more tolerable. People are more willing to accept play in PvP-enabled zones because other than time they have little to lose -- and even then, it can be an irritating experience that causes them to switch to an alt or reroll on a PvE server.

[Surlyboi]

Bingo. That miniscule percentile of the game-playing population that thinks unfettered PvP is the end-all-be-all and everything else is just boring shit to get to that needs to realize that they are in a rather small minority and the majority of the MMO public does not now and will never agree with them. For many people, PVE is the point of the game, everything else is just extra stuff they can take or leave depending on their mood.

And yes, the following statement will piss off some, but hey, this is f13, so fuck it. The only people that do find PVE fundamentally boring and need to get their rocks off by the thought of someone ganking them for thier shit in a virtual world are poseur adrenaline junkies that are too chickenshit to go out and do something truly adrenaline-inducing like jumping out of airplanes. 

[Slayerik]

Bingo. That miniscule percentile of the game-playing population that thinks unfettered PvP is the end-all-be-all and everything else is just boring shit to get to that needs to realize that they are in a rather small monority and the majority of the MMO public does not now and will never agree with them. For many people, PVE is the point of the game, everything else is just extra stuff they can take or leave depending on their mood.

And yes, the following statement will piss off some, but hey, this is f13, so fuck it. The only people that do find PVE fundamentally boring and need to get their rocks off by the thought of someone ganking them for thier shit in a virtual world are poseur adrenaline junkies that are too chickenshit to go out and do something truly adrenaline-inducing like jumping out of airplanes. 

PVE is fundamentally boring. Kill rabbit type 1 x 300. Gain new skill BASH 1 to help kill Snake type 1. Kill snake type 1 x 300. Gain new skill BASH 2 to help kill rabbit type 2. Please, PLEASE, tell me that this mindless shit is entertaining. The only thing entertaining about it is the ding grats. For those that have seen the Purepwnage bit on WoW might get a laugh after he levels. It is fundamentally boring, PVE in general that is.

The funny part about all the anti-PVP folk's argument is you state that we are such a small minority. 95% of the current MMO market has never been in an open PVP environment (WoW bringing in a ton of new blood to MMOGs). 90% of us that have played such games were forced to play trashly coded piles of horseshit. And the gameplay was fun enough to still have us fighting on meesage boards many years after.

[Jayce]

PVE is fundamentally boring.

Thanks for proving his point.

[Slayerik]

PVE is fundamentally boring.

Thanks for proving his point.

So you find it entertaining? Like, really fun?

EDIT: Well I gotta go, things to do on SB sunday. I'll just accept that some people like the whackafoozle x 25000 and go cry my psychotic blood thirsty PVP self to sleep.

[Jayce]

PVE is fundamentally boring.

Thanks for proving his point.

So you find it entertaining? Like, really fun?

Yep.

[Surlyboi]

Bingo. That miniscule percentile of the game-playing population that thinks unfettered PvP is the end-all-be-all and everything else is just boring shit to get to that needs to realize that they are in a rather small monority and the majority of the MMO public does not now and will never agree with them. For many people, PVE is the point of the game, everything else is just extra stuff they can take or leave depending on their mood.

And yes, the following statement will piss off some, but hey, this is f13, so fuck it. The only people that do find PVE fundamentally boring and need to get their rocks off by the thought of someone ganking them for thier shit in a virtual world are poseur adrenaline junkies that are too chickenshit to go out and do something truly adrenaline-inducing like jumping out of airplanes. 

PVE is fundamentally boring. Kill rabbit type 1 x 300. Gain new skill BASH 1 to help kill Snake type 1. Kill snake type 1 x 300. Gain new skill BASH 2 to help kill rabbit type 2. Please, PLEASE, tell me that this mindless shit is entertaining. The only thing entertaining about it is the ding grats. For those that have seen the Purepwnage bit on WoW might get a laugh after he levels. It is fundamentally boring, PVE in general that is.

The funny part about all the anti-PVP folk's argument is you state that we are such a small minority. 95% of the current MMO market has never been in an open PVP environment (WoW bringing in a ton of new blood to MMOGs). 90% of us that have played such games were forced to play trashly coded piles of horseshit. And the gameplay was fun enough to still have us fighting on meesage boards many years after.

No, PVE is fundamentally boring if you focus solely on the "Whack foozles, get prize" aspect of it. The problem with you PVP is my robot jesus types is that you're focused solely on the kill aspect. Not everyone that plays these games is. And despite your anecdotal assumption that everyone has but to try unfettered PVP before the flood gates open and the worlds MMOs become free-fire zones where you can get your adrenaline pumping to your heart's content, reality is far from there. Many people who do play MMOs play it for more aspects than just the kill factor. If all PVE were was killing shit, you'd have a point. PVE encompasses everything else that PVP doesn't. Including exploring, achieving and just making new gadgets to keep whatever in-game economy is there moving.

Now you want to tell me that all those people that got into games like SWG and stuff to be crafters were just dying for some douche to hang out at their harvesters and gank them for their shit? Surely you fucking jest.

[Sairon]

And yes, the following statement will piss off some, but hey, this is f13, so fuck it.

I think you're on to something there, why does the MMO veterans find PvP more intriguing than PvE in a much larger extent than the current average consumer? The majority of the people here seems to have spent a considerable amount of time in one of the earlier dikus, but now crave more "meaningful" gameplay, often in the form of PvP. I would speculate that it's to some extent the logical path once you grow tired of the mindless PvE.

Quest based leveling might have rejuvenated the PvE gameplay some, but I think it's only a momentarial solution, the quest based MMOs we've seen so far has very simple quests which fits in to a set number of categories ( delivery, slay x, farm x etc ). And therefor it will get boring after a while. The reason for why the quests aren't more unique of course is that innovative quests require to much time to craft.

I think there's certainly room for a much more PvP focused MMO in the market place, I think it's a niche which would be very smart to target now that WoW has gotten so many players intrested in the genre. It wouldn't get WoW numbers of course, but if done right it could get a very loyal fanbase, and just as EVE see steady growth for a long while after release.

[Surlyboi]

I agree with you that if done right, it would garner a rabid following and I'd probably play it myself. But for anyone to think it would be anything other than niche is pretty much the definition of wishful thinking.

[Vehementi]

No, PVE is fundamentally boring if you focus solely on the "Whack foozles, get prize" aspect of it. The problem with you PVP is my robot jesus types is that you're focused solely on the kill aspect. Not everyone that plays these games is. And despite your anecdotal assumption that everyone has but to try unfettered PVP before the flood gates open and the worlds MMOs become free-fire zones where you can get your adrenaline pumping to your heart's content, reality is far from there. Many people who do play MMOs play it for more aspects than just the kill factor. If all PVE were was killing shit, you'd have a point. PVE encompasses everything else that PVP doesn't. Including exploring, achieving and just making new gadgets to keep whatever in-game economy is there moving.

Now you want to tell me that all those people that got into games like SWG and stuff to be crafters were just dying for some douche to hang out at their harvesters and gank them for their shit? Surely you fucking jest.

Nobody said that when the masses finally try a *good* or *real* or whatever PvP game, they'll come flooding out of WoW.  Don't put words into people's mouthes.  Rather, people questioned the retarded assumption that "there is no market for PvP games" and "PvPers are the minority", which doesn't you know, actually have any grounds in reality, despite how cool and popular a notion it is on this forum.  The only thing you can say is that there are no PvP games out, and lots of people play the games that ARE out, which happen to be non-PvP games.  Out of curiosity, how do "market forces" determine that there is no demand for a PvP game, when there is currently no PvP game out as a benchmark?  Surely Market Forces aren't stupid enough to look at Shadowbane to determine this, right?  I hope that's not what you're going off either.

As for your discussion of what PvE and PvP encompass, I would argue that most people (or at least the PvP+ people in this type of debate) when talking about PvE only ARE talking about grinding mobs and fedex quests.  I wouldn't say that the exploration, discovery, etc. aspects are put solely under PvE here.  Suppose not: are you saying that PvP+ people don't want any exploration or crafting or economy or epic storylines in their games?

[LC]

Bingo. That miniscule percentile of the game-playing population that thinks unfettered PvP is the end-all-be-all and everything else is just boring shit to get to that needs to realize that they are in a rather small monority and the majority of the MMO public does not now and will never agree with them. For many people, PVE is the point of the game, everything else is just extra stuff they can take or leave depending on their mood.

And yes, the following statement will piss off some, but hey, this is f13, so fuck it. The only people that do find PVE fundamentally boring and need to get their rocks off by the thought of someone ganking them for thier shit in a virtual world are poseur adrenaline junkies that are too chickenshit to go out and do something truly adrenaline-inducing like jumping out of airplanes. 

Then why don't you go play whack-a-mole at Chuck E Cheese you pseudo hero faggot.

[Jayce]

[Surely Market Forces aren't stupid enough to look at Shadowbane to determine this, right?  I hope that's not what you're going off either.

Market Forces are pretty stupid, but I'm sure they also are looking at the resounding successes of Neocron, Planetside, non-Trammel UO, EVE, AC Darktide.  All perfectly good PvP games in their own right, but not more than niche.

PvP needs an EQ before it can have a WoW.

The majority of the people here seems to have spent a considerable amount of time in one of the earlier dikus, but now crave more "meaningful" gameplay, often in the form of PvP.

Once again, I beg to differ.  I've been playing these things pretty much exclusively for my leisure time since the mid-90s, and I think that the current state of the art is not too damn shabby.

[Surlyboi]

Then why don't you go play whack-a-mole at Chuck E Cheese you pseudo hero faggot.

Seems I touched a sore spot. And he calls me a "psuedo hero faggot", no less. I'm not the one that has to cheat unsuspecting other players in a fucking GAME to get enjoyment out of life.

Go nurse your shriveled e-peen on some unsuspecting nerf herder, you fuckin' lightweight.

Anyway, in response to an argument that has some merit...

Nobody said that when the masses finally try a *good* or *real* or whatever PvP game, they'll come flooding out of WoW.  Don't put words into people's mouthes.

Neither did I. No words were put in your mouths. Hell, I think 90% of the population of WoW are a lost cause for anything other than WoW. Saddens me to no end.

Rather, people questioned the retarded assumption that "there is no market for PvP games" and "PvPers are the minority", which doesn't you know, actually have any grounds in reality, despite how cool and popular a notion it is on this forum.

Now, who's putting words in people's mouths? No one here said that. I think we all agree that there's a market for PVP+ and that there will be a dedicated group of people that will play it and love it if it's done right. All I'm saying and all most of the others are saying is that it's not gonna be a game that's ever gonna be anything more than a niche group.

  The only thing you can say is that there are no PvP games out, and lots of people play the games that ARE out, which happen to be non-PvP games.  Out of curiosity, how do "market forces" determine that there is no demand for a PvP game, when there is currently no PvP game out as a benchmark?  Surely Market Forces aren't stupid enough to look at Shadowbane to determine this, right?  I hope that's not what you're going off either.

Fuck no, Shadowbane was an abortion for many other reasons beyond (and probably exclusive of) the PVP+ model. But it does go to prove part of my point. The biggest problem with the SB model wasn't that it was PVP+. (because honestly, that portion of it was kinda fun) It was that the developers didn't think to much beyond that and take into account the consequences of a "Lord of the Flies" online.

As for your discussion of what PvE and PvP encompass, I would argue that most people (or at least the PvP+ people in this type of debate) when talking about PvE only ARE talking about grinding mobs and fedex quests.  I wouldn't say that the exploration, discovery, etc. aspects are put solely under PvE here.  Suppose not: are you saying that PvP+ people don't want any exploration or crafting or economy or epic storylines in their games?

Not at all, just that they don't consider that PVE, when for a lot of people, it just might be.

[Slayerik]

Bingo. That miniscule percentile of the game-playing population that thinks unfettered PvP is the end-all-be-all and everything else is just boring shit to get to that needs to realize that they are in a rather small monority and the majority of the MMO public does not now and will never agree with them. For many people, PVE is the point of the game, everything else is just extra stuff they can take or leave depending on their mood.

And yes, the following statement will piss off some, but hey, this is f13, so fuck it. The only people that do find PVE fundamentally boring and need to get their rocks off by the thought of someone ganking them for thier shit in a virtual world are poseur adrenaline junkies that are too chickenshit to go out and do something truly adrenaline-inducing like jumping out of airplanes. 

PVE is fundamentally boring. Kill rabbit type 1 x 300. Gain new skill BASH 1 to help kill Snake type 1. Kill snake type 1 x 300. Gain new skill BASH 2 to help kill rabbit type 2. Please, PLEASE, tell me that this mindless shit is entertaining. The only thing entertaining about it is the ding grats. For those that have seen the Purepwnage bit on WoW might get a laugh after he levels. It is fundamentally boring, PVE in general that is.

The funny part about all the anti-PVP folk's argument is you state that we are such a small minority. 95% of the current MMO market has never been in an open PVP environment (WoW bringing in a ton of new blood to MMOGs). 90% of us that have played such games were forced to play trashly coded piles of horseshit. And the gameplay was fun enough to still have us fighting on meesage boards many years after.

No, PVE is fundamentally boring if you focus solely on the "Whack foozles, get prize" aspect of it. The problem with you PVP is my robot jesus types is that you're focused solely on the kill aspect. Not everyone that plays these games is. And despite your anecdotal assumption that everyone has but to try unfettered PVP before the flood gates open and the worlds MMOs become free-fire zones where you can get your adrenaline pumping to your heart's content, reality is far from there. Many people who do play MMOs play it for more aspects than just the kill factor. If all PVE were was killing shit, you'd have a point. PVE encompasses everything else that PVP doesn't. Including exploring, achieving and just making new gadgets to keep whatever in-game economy is there moving.

Now you want to tell me that all those people that got into games like SWG and stuff to be crafters were just dying for some douche to hang out at their harvesters and gank them for their shit? Surely you fucking jest.

Seriously, you are the poster boy for PVE games. Its ok, like it has been said you are just king dick of the majority.

[pxib]

PvE = Player vs. Environment
PvP = Player vs. Player

Anything you do that pits you against the game is PvE.
Anything you do that pits you against another person is PvP.

Unconventional examples of PvP:
- Ninja looting
- Guild politics
- Becoming a cutthroat merchant
- Forum trolling
- Rushing to be the first person to reach max level
- Rushing to be the first guild to kill the ultimate raid boss

In PvE everybody can win, or everybody can lose.
In PvP somebody wins and somebody else loses.

If, like LC, you can't enjoy a game unless somebody is losing, you have to grief in order to enjoy PvE (even if everybody loses it's better than if nobody does)... and you have to find any underhanded method you can to make sure that PvP is weighted to your advantage, and causes as much pain to the other player as possible. It's an ugly, twisted version of the MMOG Holy Grails: Impact and Reknown. Being max level doesn't matter because everybody's max level...

"...but that guy we just ganked was pissed! We killed him six times then he logged off and posted on the forums that he's quitting the game!" Looting is just a way to make the other player remember you a little longer: "See this battleship I've got? Remember when it was yours?"

Players who want a cooperative rather than a competitive game will never enjoy playing with LC.
They're happiest when everybody wins.

[Surlyboi]

Wow, faggot and king dick all in the same day. Someone picks apart your two-dimensional thinking and you resort to namecalling. Too bad the forums aren't PVP, then the both of you could gang up on me and take my carebear ass out.

Seriously, you're not even trying. Vehementi at least put up a worthwhile argument. And despite your protestations that I'm the poster boy for PVE games, I played pre-trammel UO and did my share of asskicking and getting my ass kicked and I would gladly PVP in a game that got it right. So far, nothing has. And if what I've seen from you guys is the best the PVP+ crowd can come up with, (not to mention the industry) then nothing will. And like I've said over and over in this thread and several others, even if it does get done right. It's not gonna be anything other than niche. Because (now follow me here) when given the choice of playing a game and potentially losing time and effort to someone else or playing a game where the only loss is transitory at best; the majority of the people out there will take the former because why the fuck should they lose their stuff to make someone else happy?

[Nija]

Players who want a cooperative rather than a competitive game will never enjoy playing with LC.

I play co-op games with LC all the time.

Also, I forget who mentioned it but they basically said that LC cheats and makes the game unfun for everyone. I beg to differ.

Who DIDN'T enjoy that huge Shadowbane fiasco with entire towns full of people being teleported to the bottom of the ocean and high level monsters being spawned all over the newbie cities? It was the best thing that ever happened to Shadowbane.

[pxib]

I rest my case.

[Nebu]

I think people take exception to LC because he'd rather resort to name calling than just state an objective viewpoint.  Most of us would rather have a dialogue than a playground argument.