Looting in PVP

[Slayerik]

The Vanguard Live thread got me thinking about this subject. This is in no way an attempt to start (yet another) UO griefer/pvp/carebear argument.

The games in which I truely enjoyed PVP all had one common denominator. Looting of some form.

UO: Full looting rights. Chop up their body, hell chop their head off (depending). Made a risk factor for bringing out that sexy Vanq Halby/Kat.

SB: Full looting. Kill a guy and take his rune he just camped. Kill a guy and take the money he was farming. Try not to get killed or stolen from while getting that commander rune.

Neocron: Loot random module off defeated enemy (this was changed from a much more harsh penalty).

Eve: Ship loss, random module loot.


So why were these better than lootless PVP? To me it must be the thrill of the hunt, or on the otherside the urgency to live. When you PVP in WoW, you die and are back after a 2 minute death run. Nothing changes. Winning or losing means dick. So you don't care either way. Its item based PVP without item risk. In item loss PVP, the difference in adrenaline and will to live is huge.

That is why the argument of "go play quake if you want to PVP lol" is BS to me. You have nothing invested, no reason to truely want to escape or kill. Its just twitch. I like having something on the line, as well as something to be gained. Make death at least somewhat meaningful and you have my 15 a month. No wonder I can't even get into the Burning Crusade. Eve actually gives me that rush. Its probably just a matter of preference, but I'm curious to see if others feel the same way.

[Falconeer]

As I said it elsewhere multiple times: to me PvP without loot is like Poker without money.

[Roac]

SB didn't have full looting, fyi.

[slog]

You need to define terms here.  SB did NOT have fulll loot, as your equipped items were not lootable.

That being said, Looting of Players in a MMOG is a great way to get them to cancel their sub after they lose something they value.  So if your goal is to lose subs at a rapid rate, looting of players is the way to go.

[Slayerik]

SB didn't have full looting, fyi.

My mistake, you didnt get their equip IIRC. Full backpack looting though, right?

[Nonentity]

SB didn't have full looting, fyi.

My mistake, you didnt get their equip IIRC. Full backpack looting though, right?

Yeah, it was full backpack looting.

[Slayerik]

You need to define terms here.  SB did NOT have fulll loot, as your equipped items were not lootable.

That being said, Looting of Players in a MMOG is a great way to get them to cancel their sub after they lose something they value.  So if your goal is to lose subs at a rapid rate, looting of players is the way to go.

I believe this is a pretty fair argument. Since only two of these games were not horribly buggy, you could contribute sub loss to a combination of the two (bugs and item loss, sometimes at the same time). I don't see Eve dying due to this, though it is a semi-niche game if you compare it to the Giant.

[Fargull]

PVP looting would be nice if structured similar to the way AV is setup in WOW.  Why not allow you to collect token turn ins for rep and equipment.  Don't take something away from the other player, but make it part of the economy.  Have token coin, again not taken from the other player.

PvP whose only consequence is time works and seems to have some level of mass appeal.

[Valmorian]

When you PVP in WoW, you die and are back after a 2 minute death run. Nothing changes. Winning or losing means dick. So you don't care either way. Its item based PVP without item risk. In item loss PVP, the difference in adrenaline and will to live is huge.

To you, perhaps.  To many others, however, the PvP without loot loss is the optimal way to go.

I've never understood the premise that winning is meaningless unless you can also take something from your opponent.  The VAST majority of games out there do not involve a penalty other than losing, so are you suggesting they are meaningless?

[Endie]

...
That being said, Looting of Players in a MMOG is a great way to get them to cancel their sub after they lose something they value.  So if your goal is to lose subs at a rapid rate, looting of players is the way to go.

[snip]...  I don't see Eve dying due to this, though it is a semi-niche game if you compare it to the Giant.

Yeah, but if you're in Eve for long you realise that there are a lot of people in Empire space trading, missioning and generally carebearing (non-perjorative use of the word), and that most of lowsec, let alone 0.0, is amazingly empty.  There are big areas in 0.0 (especially in the map's NE) where you can go for days and never see anyone.  From what i see in chat when a mission-runner first takes a lowsec hauler mission or something and gets ganked, I honestly don't think that the majority of Eve players ever spend time in free fire zones.

[Chenghiz]

I think it really depends on the player's preference. Clearly to some, full loot PVP is just more fun. To others, like me, the fun in PVP comes from the fight, not the aftermath or consequences (either positive or negative.) I don't have a problem with partial-loot PVP as in EVE, but overall I prefer something less ball-wracking like WoW, simply because when you lose something in EVE, you have to work to replace it, and I'd rather just fight rather than farm to fight.

[Slayerik]

I think it really depends on the player's preference. Clearly to some, full loot PVP is just more fun. To others, like me, the fun in PVP comes from the fight, not the aftermath or consequences (either positive or negative.) I don't have a problem with partial-loot PVP as in EVE, but overall I prefer something less ball-wracking like WoW, simply because when you lose something in EVE, you have to work to replace it, and I'd rather just fight rather than farm to fight.

But aren't you farming to fight in games like WoW? Grind that gold out so you can buy a blue. Raid MC for the 50th time to finish up your set. Since there is a large number of PVP servers, with raiding guilds, are they not farming for advantage in PVP? I guess it can't be proven either way, but that would seem to be the case. In the end, you probably would spend similar amount of time farming in either sense.

[Merusk]

Yeah, but if you're in Eve for long you realise that there are a lot of people in Empire space trading, missioning and generally carebearing (non-perjorative use of the word), and that most of lowsec, let alone 0.0, is amazingly empty.  There are big areas in 0.0 (especially in the map's NE) where you can go for days and never see anyone.  From what i see in chat when a mission-runner first takes a lowsec hauler mission or something and gets ganked, I honestly don't think that the majority of Eve players ever spend time in free fire zones.

Two years ago or so, the devs came out and said that 2/3 of the playerbase spent something like 90% of their time in .5 and higher.  That's when things started to change to really push players out into lowsec at the least.  From the times I've played Eve, it hasn't worked and these folks have just taken to grinding longer on the lower payouts, or flying lower missions.

Lots of people don't like or enjoy gambling, so the 'thrill' of item loss isn't exactly going to appeal to them. (I'm one!) However, I love pitting my game skill, knowledge and ability against other players rather than the AI all the time.  Thus PvP without looting tends to be my preference.

 And yes, I do enjoy shooters a great deal.  Moreso than RPG PvP, in fact.)   I just want to do it on MY terms and when I want to.    The last few games to come out that incorporate systems along these lines have done well, and seem to show I'm not in the minority here.

[Valmorian]

But aren't you farming to fight in games like WoW? Grind that gold out so you can buy a blue. Raid MC for the 50th time to finish up your set. Since there is a large number of PVP servers, with raiding guilds, are they not farming for advantage in PVP? I guess it can't be proven either way, but that would seem to be the case. In the end, you probably would spend similar amount of time farming in either sense.

Of course, after you've done all that "grinding" ( most people in WoW would call it just "playing" though, and PLENTY of people PvP there in Blues or even Greens!) you aren't going to have to do it over again simply because you lost ONCE. 

[Nebu]

If I remember correctly, when EQ had pvp added it had corpse looting.  I think you could loot any 1 item that wasn't a weapon or in a bag. 

I'm all for corpse looting as long as a) equipment doesn't make the player and b) there is gear of reasonable quality easy to obtain. 

[Arthur_Parker]

AC Darktide had the best system, a couple of high value items drop randomly, the number of items increases as you level.  You can carry death items (high value crap) to try and defeat the random nature but there's always a chance you will drop or loot something good.  

Reequipping everything is a major pain in the arse in a full loot system, so what tends to happen is they gradually introduce no drop items, which just means they should have went with a limited random drop in the first place, no matter what their item system was like before, the best no loot weapon available is now the best item in the game.

I'm not getting into it in the other thread, but money looting is not item looting, there's a major difference, noone should give a shit about money after a few hours play in any of the current games.

Even limited item looting is not going to be popular but what I'm hoping happens in a future game is looting of cloned items, kill a plate warrior, get a chance of looting a cloned plate item of something that guy was actually using.  Everyone wins sometimes and the dead guy doesn't need to moan about losing something.

[Nonentity]

AC Darktide had the best system, a couple of high value items drop randomly, the number of items increases as you level.  You can carry death items (high value crap) to try and defeat the random nature but there's always a chance you will drop or loot something good. 

Reequipping everything is a major pain in the arse in a full loot system, so what tends to happen is they gradually introduce no drop items, which just means they should have went with a limited random drop in the first place, no matter what their item system was like before, the best no loot weapon available is now the best item in the game.

I'm not getting into it in the other thread, but money looting is not item looting, there's a major difference, noone should give a shit about money after a few hours play in any of the current games.

Even limited item looting is not going to be popular but what I'm hoping happens in a future game is looting of cloned items, kill a plate warrior, get a chance of looting a cloned plate item of something that guy was actually using.  Everyone wins sometimes and the dead guy doesn't need to moan about losing something.

Eh, I don't see that working.

Then the guy who goes out and spends a bunch of time to craft the platemail of awesome just gets camped over and over while some pvp guild farms his gear.

[Roac]

Lots of people don't like or enjoy gambling, so the 'thrill' of item loss isn't exactly going to appeal to them. (I'm one!) However, I love pitting my game skill, knowledge and ability against other players rather than the AI all the time.  Thus PvP without looting tends to be my preference.

I'm partly in that same category.  That is, I don't enjoy gambling (for no reason other than I don't find it fun), so any aspect of PvP that coincides with that is dull for me.  At the same time though, I tend to seek out PvP+ games that have looting of some sort.  What I enjoy is risk.  I like that there is a sense of danger, and that I need to keep on my toes to survive.  The catch is that I want a mechanism(s) in place so that if I do keep on my toes, I probably will survive (ie, get away if not win). 

UO had that; just keep recall on the ready and you're fine.  Eve sorta has that; keep warp aligned and you'll mostly be fine.  My old MUD had that; there were places you could run to escape PKs, so long as you knew where they were, how to get there, and could survive long enough to make it.  Shadowbane didn't have that very well, as recall was put in late and iffy in use.  Lack of much of a death penalty and ability to spot PKs early on track mitigated that though.

[Slayerik]

But aren't you farming to fight in games like WoW? Grind that gold out so you can buy a blue. Raid MC for the 50th time to finish up your set. Since there is a large number of PVP servers, with raiding guilds, are they not farming for advantage in PVP? I guess it can't be proven either way, but that would seem to be the case. In the end, you probably would spend similar amount of time farming in either sense.

Of course, after you've done all that "grinding" ( most people in WoW would call it just "playing" though, and PLENTY of people PvP there in Blues or even Greens!) you aren't going to have to do it over again simply because you lost ONCE. 

Lets not make any illusions that WoW isn't a grindfest (be it for rep, gold, or items). Hell, what MMO isn't these days.

With UO as an example, you dont necessarily have to make items the end-all-be-all. I think there could be a middle ground somewhere. I am in the minority, but nowadays you will find that the MMO playerbase has expanded. People WILL burn on WoW. 1% of wow's current numbers is something like 60k subs. Will the WoW polish and hand holding doom any niche games to failure? I don't think so.

[Chenghiz]

But aren't you farming to fight in games like WoW? Grind that gold out so you can buy a blue. Raid MC for the 50th time to finish up your set. Since there is a large number of PVP servers, with raiding guilds, are they not farming for advantage in PVP? I guess it can't be proven either way, but that would seem to be the case. In the end, you probably would spend similar amount of time farming in either sense.

Of course, after you've done all that "grinding" ( most people in WoW would call it just "playing" though, and PLENTY of people PvP there in Blues or even Greens!) you aren't going to have to do it over again simply because you lost ONCE. 

That was basically my point. When I'm done getting gear for PVP in WoW, I can just log on and PVP whenever I want. I don't have to worry about farming up gold or raiding for new armor to replace what I lost, or worry about much of anything at all other than what I like to do.

I think this could also reflect the difference of interest in MMOs split between 'virtual-world' versus 'game-game'. If you're playing an MMO because of the virtual-world part, the looting in PVP makes sense from a gameplay perspective; consequences are incurred as a result of engaging in conflict, and war is for more than the scorecard at the end. For a game-game MMO player (to whom WoW has more appeal) the ability to log on and play a game and have fun is a transitory thing, and not necessarily as much dependent on whether that combat has long-term consequences as whether it was fun in and of itself, for the competition's sake (not that this isn't true of a virtual-world player; it's just that they place game value in more than just that).

[edit]

Lets not make any illusions that WoW isn't a grindfest (be it for rep, gold, or items).

In my opinion, it's only a grind if you don't enjoy doing it.

[Nebu]

I'm a big fan of corpse looting and perma death, but my tastes are arguably niche.  

Here are a couple of reasons why I think the days of corpse looting are over:

1) If the gear is worth looting, then the gear makes the toon.  In a pvp game this is a fundamentally flawed system.  If skill makes the player, then why wear gear?  If the two are balanced, then well-equipped characters are penalized most as they invested the most time gearing up.

2) This still creates a disparity between classes.  Melee classes are far more dependant on gear.  Running around in a minimally equipped caster would be the preferred method of making money/loot.  

3) Corpse camping and zerging people isn't fun for the person on the receiving end.  I love pvp, but getting run over repeatedly by full groups sucks.  A corpse looting dynamic will force grouping and discourage many from playing.  

4) Class balance is a pipe dream.  The disparity chasm will widen as the more powerful classes/builds will continue to prey on the weaker implementations.  

5) The game would be too niche to garner investor dollars.  

[tazelbain]

So why were these better than lootless PVP? To me it must be the thrill of the hunt, or on the otherside the urgency to live. When you PVP in WoW, you die and are back after a 2 minute death run. Nothing changes. Winning or losing means dick. So you don't care either way. Its item based PVP without item risk. In item loss PVP, the difference in adrenaline and will to live is huge.

I just think games shouldn't be punitive.  You should go play poker with your paycheck, that'll give you the thrill you are for.  What gives me a thrill in PvP are tough fights.  Punitive PvP encourage people avoid tough fights.

Back to you subject, a few ideas:
Graduated looting like EvE security, the farther out you are the more lootable you are.
Full looting with guild based equip, you can lose all your stuff but you can back to your guild and stock up.  If you die too much it weakens your guild and strengthens others.
Full Loot, but blessed items don't drop.  Blessing is expensive and temporary.  That gold drops in place of the blessed items when you die.

 

[rk47]

The problem is that sort of pvp intensive MMO won't sell much in the mmo market. How many times people quit when they get scammed out of a lot of gold or lost a weapon due to account hack? Add in full losses losses from just doing 'pve' and being ambushed by some guy 40 lvls higher than him, do you think he'll even want to continue his sub past the first month? I know the example is extreme but some people just dont' give a shit how low or cheap the guy's gear is, free loot is free. One shot, loot, sell. It's easier than grinding mobs at the same level for cash. 

[Arthur_Parker]

Eh, I don't see that working.

Then the guy who goes out and spends a bunch of time to craft the platemail of awesome just gets camped over and over while some pvp guild farms his gear.

Chance to drop is random, chance to drop is based on minimum number of items carried, additional loot table based on class and race to make it more random and character death timer added.  You could even further prevent it based on a last five characters who killed you list, but there are really dozens of ways to prevent farming the key part is don't release the information on methods used to prevent farming.

[SnakeCharmer]

I'm all for corpse looting as long as a) equipment doesn't make the player[/i] and b) there is gear of reasonable quality easy to obtain. 

Interesting statement....

It's my belief that gear is nothing more than stats, at their core.  The same stats that say, your dodge/parry/block/etc are.  As you play, your dodge/parry/block increases at the degree that they are used.  Further, innate spells and such could be viewed as nothing more than 'stats'.  The more you play, the more you grind (bad word choice, I'll admit), the higher your stats (abilities) go.

Saying 'as long as the equipment doesn't make the player' seems to say to me 'as long as we're all the same level with the same stats with all the same skills and abilities'. 

That sort of homogeny would be a bit boring, yes?  No real 'ding gratz reward' for time or 'effort' spent?

[Nonentity]

Eh, I don't see that working.

Then the guy who goes out and spends a bunch of time to craft the platemail of awesome just gets camped over and over while some pvp guild farms his gear.

Chance to drop is random, chance to drop is based on minimum number of items carried, additional loot table based on class and race to make it more random and character death timer added.  You could even further prevent it based on a last five characters who killed you list, but there are really dozens of ways to prevent farming the key part is don't release the information on methods used to prevent farming.

I'm sure there could be a way to prevent it, but saying that players won't figure out a system eventually is just poppycock. Player have, can, and will eventually figure out every system you've made for your game.

I seem to remember Lum or Raph mentioning something like that.

[Nebu]

Saying 'as long as the equipment doesn't make the player' seems to say to me 'as long as we're all the same level with the same stats with all the same skills and abilities'. 

That sort of homogeny would be a bit boring, yes?  No real 'ding gratz reward' for time or 'effort' spent?

It's all about what you find fun in the game.  If "ding gratz" is the game to you, then it would be boring.  If PvP is the game, then wouldn't even fights be more fun than getting steamrolled by some guy that lives in his mom's basement?

The way to offer a carrot is similar to what you see in planetside and (to a lesser degree) DAoC.  You offer ability diversification with PvP kills.  Being able to "pwn with impunity" is only fun for the people with lots of free time to invest.  To attract a large audience you need to offer rewards for participation that don't overly skew the fights.

[Arthur_Parker]

Nonentity, It's not rocket science, you just make it so difficult to intentionally farm cloned items that it's not worth the effort.  But you know what, you have convinced me, being able to loot items based, in part, on what you just killed is a stupid idea.  I withdraw the suggestion, players are clearly far to clever to be defeated by a random element.

[Riggswolfe]

So why were these better than lootless PVP? To me it must be the thrill of the hunt, or on the otherside the urgency to live. When you PVP in WoW, you die and are back after a 2 minute death run. Nothing changes. Winning or losing means dick. So you don't care either way. Its item based PVP without item risk. In item loss PVP, the difference in adrenaline and will to live is huge.

That is why the argument of "go play quake if you want to PVP lol" is BS to me. You have nothing invested, no reason to truely want to escape or kill. Its just twitch. I like having something on the line, as well as something to be gained. Make death at least somewhat meaningful and you have my 15 a month. No wonder I can't even get into the Burning Crusade. Eve actually gives me that rush. Its probably just a matter of preference, but I'm curious to see if others feel the same way.

I think this is the pvp equivalent to the pve players who believe you need to grind and invest massive time to get around cockblocks (corpse runs I'm  looking at you.) for the game to be meaningful. Both are looked at as crazy by most other gamers. Both mindsets believe you need to be punished so you earn your fun in the games.

I sort of see why you have this feeling. I remember adrenalin rushes in UO. But as another poster said, this kind of pvp is punitive. You are literally punished for losing. And history has shown that this is just not popular, anymore than corpse runs are popular with pve players.

Out of your games that are examples, only UO and Eve can be considered any kind of success. Neocron is basically begging for subscribers and SB is dead. And out of UO and Eve, UO survived only because of Trammel (and I know this debatable in some people's fantasylands but the numbers bear it out.) and Eve is niche and not full-on pvp everywhere in any case. It could be argued that SB died because it was horribly made, but the same really can't be said of the others.

[Valmorian]

Lets not make any illusions that WoW isn't a grindfest (be it for rep, gold, or items). Hell, what MMO isn't these days.

With UO as an example, you dont necessarily have to make items the end-all-be-all. I think there could be a middle ground somewhere. I am in the minority, but nowadays you will find that the MMO playerbase has expanded. People WILL burn on WoW. 1% of wow's current numbers is something like 60k subs. Will the WoW polish and hand holding doom any niche games to failure? I don't think so.

1. Items don't "matter" : Then what's the point in looting them?
2. Items "matter" but are trivial to replace : Then what's the point in looting them?  Why not just "buy" them if they're trivial to obtain by other means?
3. Items "matter" and are non-trivial to replace : Then the loser of a PvP battle has a non-trivial task to perform EVERY TIME THEY LOSE.

All adding item-looting does is widen the power differential.  

In virtually every other PvP game besides MMO's, there is a considerable effort to afford all players an even footing prior to the contest, yet in MMO's all of a sudden we want the loser to not only pay by virtue of having lost the combat, but to ALSO be weaker for the NEXT combat.  With any other game, that would be considered a broken mechanic.

[waylander]

What made looting in UO work from 97-99 was that replacement items for everything were easily obtained.  You had PK's and Anti-PK's, and they were killing one another so frequently that you were able to stockpile resources. I used to write about that sort of stuff on stratics all the time in Hades Hall of Warfare.  The difference was when one side or the other got killed so frequently they couldn't restock, but I saw plenty of naked PVP fights that were quite entertaining.

Shadowbane's problem was that gear and runes actually did matter, and repairs got too expensive to the average fighter.  You were lucky if you could kill mobs for 10 minutes before being killed, robbed, or both. The most money I ever had in shadowbane was 40 million gold for selling two high demand runes, and it financed my repairs for the next two years.  But many people weren't in that situation, and SB lost a lot of casual gamers as a result.

Both of those games have one thing in common, the hard core thrived while the casual player died and left.  Example. If I've got 3 hours a day to play and I'm repeatedly killed, looted, and my gear destroyed then I can't participate in the player economy very well. Therefore I'm going to a game that will allow me to PVP, but within a limited ruleset.

I am on record for many years now for saying that games should not make farming players the fastest way to make money, and unfortunately for both UO and SB they both promoted that concept. I prefer PVP with skill involved, and there is no skill in an 8 man team rolling up on 2-3 guys exp'ing and killing them in the middle of a pull.

IMHO PVP rewards should be for gear (that wears out), titles, badges, temporary power up items, etc.  BG's should have ladder rankings where guilds are ranked by kill to death ratios, wins, and dps. Arenas should have ladders for several group sizes, sort of like WoW has now.

Open PVP environments simply don't work anymore because players do not police themselves, and open environments make it too easy to farm players in situations where looting is allowed. So for better or worse we can expect to see RvR, GvsG Arena, or BG's as a mainstay for MMORPG's for quite some time.

[LC]

I love/hate this argument. It always helps distinguish the Carebear Cousins from the normal Carebears though. Carebear Cousins are the individuals who want conflict with no consequences. In fact many of them feel they should be rewarded for losing. I can see several of you posting in this thread already. Many of you falsely believe that nothing other than level and loot based systems exists/works. Maybe you never played UO? I will agree that looting and PVP in one of these (level/loot based) games will never work. But pvp without consequences will never work either.

Just look at the pile of shit called Asheron's Call 2. It's the perfect example of why no consequence PvP does not work. In Asheron's Call 2 when you killed an invading enemy the fight did not end. That enemy would just spawn at the nearest lifestone, and then return again. Eventually he would wear you down, and manage to kill you. The fight would then move to the lifestone itself. At that point the winner would be decided by who got bored first. I finally won the ultimate victory when I cancelled my account. No consequence PvP leads to boredom. Maybe some of you are just boring people, and it fits you like a glove. Many of us prefer fun and excitement over boredom though.

I'm not saying that a loss should make you want to quit the game. But I am saying that it shouldn't make you feel indifferent toward the guy who just killed you. I played WoW for a year, but I can't remember a single opponent's name. I can remember a few guilds, but that's about it. I played UO for 3 years, and I can remember almost every player that ever killed me. I can even remember the name of the first guy to pk me as a newbie. His name was Pen15, and he killed me at the west gate of Trinsic. I can remember things that happened ten years ago in UO, but I can't remember anything from playing WoW last year. Obviously WoW's pvp was not able to hold my attention.

Looting is a bond between the victor and victim. If you take that away, it (pvp) really is just a game of quake on a public server.

[ahoythematey]

If I had in-game ways to point to another player and say, "I killed that stupid bitch 138 times last month, they aren't as hardcore as they claim," I would be happy with no looting in PvP.  Stat tracking and whatnot, I guess.  All easily accessible in-game.

As was said earlier, I think AC had the best PvP ruleset as of yet with Darktide.

[slog]

LC is right.  AC2 failed becuase the PvP sucked.....

[AcidCat]

I've never understood the premise that winning is meaningless unless you can also take something from your opponent.  The VAST majority of games out there do not involve a penalty other than losing, so are you suggesting they are meaningless?

I agree. I've spent many many hours on FPS games and never felt I needed to get some concrete gain out of each dead opponent. The fun of the combat against real players was its own reward. I feel exactly the same in WoW PvP - it doesn't matter that it is less skill based, or that items/levels have such an influence on combat. PvP is fun in and of itself, plus you get goodies for doing it. I don't need the "adrenaline rush" of fearing I might lose items, that just wouldn't be fun.