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f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  The Gaming Graveyard  |  MMOG Discussion  |  Eve Online  |  Topic: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9! 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
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Author Topic: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!  (Read 441136 times)
MahrinSkel
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When she crossed over, she was just a ship. But when she came back... she was bullshit!


Reply #490 on: May 30, 2007, 12:32:40 PM

He asked for an explanation of what the Goons were accused of, how "unbiased" can an accusation be?  Up until the last paragraph, it was a recitation of facts, although a slanted one.  Being such warm and caring individuals amongst yourselves, I think you have underestimated just how much the goons are disliked in the general Eve population.

--Dave

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Dravalen
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Reply #491 on: May 30, 2007, 12:36:15 PM

Quote
Greetings,

The so-called "POS Bowling" will from here on be considered an exploit. While it is true that this is not verifiable after the fact by way of logs, GMs are able to go ingame and monitor situations at will, and do it without anyone knowing. If we catch anyone doing this we will take the appropriate action against them. We therefore urge Titan and Mothership pilots to refrain from using their ships to bump ships out of POS forcefields, or risk facing punitive measures for exploiting.

All the best,

GM Grimmi
Lead Game Master
EVE Online Customer Support

Ah.  I saw that, was expecting something more nifty than a blurb about bumping.
Consider BoB has been doing this for quite some time it's pretty amusing that they came out just now saying it's an exploit.

For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return.
Reg
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Reply #492 on: May 30, 2007, 12:41:58 PM

I live in Empire and am a carebear. I make battleships and sell them to mission runners.

I don't care about 0.0 at all except for how it affects the price of zydrine and megacyte. And yet everything I've heard about BoB for the last two years and their posts on various forums has given me the impression that they're arrogant assholes.

I'm not alone. I don't think you have a clue about just how widely disliked BoB is.

Oh, and I still think CCP is completely out of line. If I were actually paying for my subscription with real money I'd join the exodus from the game.
Nebu
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Reply #493 on: May 30, 2007, 12:43:13 PM

It's interesting to read these discussions about "exploits".  In DAoC people have been lag hacking, circle strafing, lag jumping, window dragging, and every other type of thing they can imagine in order to gain a small advantage on the battlefield.  Mythic's response to date is that they are all "good gameplay".  To see the EvE folks call people on these lame tactics is refreshing to say the least.  

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
MahrinSkel
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When she crossed over, she was just a ship. But when she came back... she was bullshit!


Reply #494 on: May 30, 2007, 01:28:39 PM

I live in Empire and am a carebear. I make battleships and sell them to mission runners.

I don't care about 0.0 at all except for how it affects the price of zydrine and megacyte. And yet everything I've heard about BoB for the last two years and their posts on various forums has given me the impression that they're arrogant assholes.

I'm not alone. I don't think you have a clue about just how widely disliked BoB is.
You should try having them for landlords.  I'm not saying BoB is a bunch of angels, but their excesses are born of in-game sources and expressed in game-related ways, with a certain degree of "honor".  They are engaged in the game, and they're playing "hardcore".  Not the "best sports" in the world, they're pretty poor winners, always rubbing everyone else's nose in it.  Having to *ask* them for permission to anchor our new outposts was pretty damned annoying, even if the permission was nearly a foregone conclusion.

Goons, on the other hand, are playing outside the bounds of the game, for reasons and towards goals that have nothing to do with the game itself.  Their current campaign, from my POV, is the equivalent of trying to flip over the game board because they aren't going to win.  Beyond just being "poor sports", they're trying to ruin the game for everyone, and they take delight in doing so.  They're not attacking the in-game enemy, they're attacking the *game itself*.

--Dave

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Reg
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Reply #495 on: May 30, 2007, 01:45:10 PM

Quote
Goons, on the other hand, are playing outside the bounds of the game, for reasons and towards goals that have nothing to do with the game itself.  Their current campaign, from my POV, is the equivalent of trying to flip over the game board because they aren't going to win.  Beyond just being "poor sports", they're trying to ruin the game for everyone, and they take delight in doing so.  They're not attacking the in-game enemy, they're attacking the *game itself*.
From my point of view the Goons are attacking BoB, and BoB have made themselves unlovable. Just looking around various forums I don't see the Goons being even half as obnoxious as BoB and their buddies. Oh, and this weird assumption that attacking BoB and its interests is an attack "on the game itself" is just another example of the arrogance that makes most people dislike you.



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Reply #496 on: May 30, 2007, 01:47:15 PM

Quote
Goons, on the other hand, are playing outside the bounds of the game, for reasons and towards goals that have nothing to do with the game itself.  Their current campaign, from my POV, is the equivalent of trying to flip over the game board because they aren't going to win.  Beyond just being "poor sports", they're trying to ruin the game for everyone, and they take delight in doing so.  They're not attacking the in-game enemy, they're attacking the *game itself*.
From my point of view the Goons are attacking BoB, and BoB have made themselves unlovable. Just looking around various forums I don't see the Goons being even half as obnoxious as BoB and their buddies. Oh, and this weird assumption that attacking BoB and its interests is an attack "on the game itself" is just another example of the arrogance that makes most people dislike you.

I believe that "the current campaign" he mentions is a specific reference to the EveO board "threadnaught" over the weekend, not the war.
MahrinSkel
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When she crossed over, she was just a ship. But when she came back... she was bullshit!


Reply #497 on: May 30, 2007, 01:55:59 PM

Quote
Goons, on the other hand, are playing outside the bounds of the game, for reasons and towards goals that have nothing to do with the game itself.  Their current campaign, from my POV, is the equivalent of trying to flip over the game board because they aren't going to win.  Beyond just being "poor sports", they're trying to ruin the game for everyone, and they take delight in doing so.  They're not attacking the in-game enemy, they're attacking the *game itself*.
From my point of view the Goons are attacking BoB, and BoB have made themselves unlovable. Just looking around various forums I don't see the Goons being even half as obnoxious as BoB and their buddies. Oh, and this weird assumption that attacking BoB and its interests is an attack "on the game itself" is just another example of the arrogance that makes most people dislike you.

I believe that "the current campaign" he mentions is a specific reference to the EveO board "threadnaught" over the weekend, not the war.
Yes.  Attacking BoB and their allies, even spreading "BoD devsploithax" propaganda inside of the game for strategic and diplomatic purposes, is one thing.  Spreading the "CCP is corrupt" message all over the internet on such thin and ambiguous, if not ouright fabricated, evidence, goes far beyond that.

--Dave

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Simond
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Reply #498 on: May 30, 2007, 02:27:26 PM

Consider BoB has been doing this for quite some time it's pretty amusing that they came out just now saying it's an exploit.
Actual timeline of this particular saga:

Evil Thug starts POS bowling against BoB, a few months ago.
CCP: This is an exploit, please cease immediately.
ET: Ok, I'll stop.

A couple of weeks pass.

BoB's multiple titan pilots start POS bowling against RA/GS/etc., and stealing ships.
RA/GS/etc: /petition WTF?
CCP: This is not an exploit, and we will not punish anybody for it.
Evil Thug: All righty then *starts stealing multiple BoB ships via POS bowling*

A week or two passes.

CCP (today): POS bowling is an exploit. Please stop.

"You're really a good person, aren't you? So, there's no path for you to take here. Go home. This isn't a place for someone like you."
Arthur_Parker
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Reply #499 on: May 30, 2007, 02:34:58 PM

Yes.  Attacking BoB and their allies, even spreading "BoD devsploithax" propaganda inside of the game for strategic and diplomatic purposes, is one thing.  Spreading the "CCP is corrupt" message all over the internet on such thin and ambiguous, if not ouright fabricated, evidence, goes far beyond that.

--Dave

Fabricated?

RP events are rigged, the reporter was fired and showing a screenshot of a petition is nice but they didn't actually deny that orangespecies contacted a dev via msn to get him fired and all his accounts banned in 3 hours, in fact BoB defended using msn to contact their special "friends".  A dev did join a goonswarm corp and it wasn't because of a pos petition like CCP said but due to a bpo petition that's been dragging on since February.  Threads were deleted and people were banned from the forums and from the game for bringing the subject up.

That's epic trolling Dave, you hate goons fine, we are a cancer on eve, fine.  Jesus dude, fabricated?  Goons had nothing to do with the rigged RP or msn stories apart from repeating them.  CCP's own screenshots shows the dev in goonswarm was real.

How exactly was any of this for strategic or diplomatic purposes?  CCP has come right out and called goonswarm a bunch of cunts and threatened legal action.  

There were only two possible outcomes.  Either they cleaned up their act and started to act like every other mmo company and stopped having an unofficial favourite dev alliance in a pvp game or they didn't.  CCP decided playing the game with BoB's expensive virtual toys was more important than a fair playground for all.  At the end of the day it's their game and that's their decision, but lets not kid ourselves that the whole thing doesn't stink to high heaven.
Merusk
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Reply #500 on: May 30, 2007, 02:37:07 PM

In the end, if you're still sending your $15 to CCP after all this, you deserve whatever exploits friend-bias and one-sided item returns reign down on you.

Sell your accounts, and move on.  Playing fucking yahoo checkers makes more sense at this point.

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
MahrinSkel
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When she crossed over, she was just a ship. But when she came back... she was bullshit!


Reply #501 on: May 30, 2007, 02:41:31 PM

I'm not going to try to refute the entire Goon Forum Tactical Syntax Team.  I've already stated that CCP has had serious problems with employee professionalism, and is playing into the Goons hands as a result.

But, be honest here: Do the goons even *care* if any of this is true?  Or is it just a useful hammer to grief the developers with?  What would be sufficient evidence to convince you CCP was honest?

--Dave

EDIT: And the key phrase was "thin and ambiguous".  Continually leaping on the one part of my posts you can actually argue against, or just declaring it "slanted" and dismissing it, may be tried and true Fox News inspired ways to control the debate by making it look like there actually is one, but come *on*.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2007, 02:44:06 PM by MahrinSkel »

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Arthur_Parker
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Reply #502 on: May 30, 2007, 02:50:09 PM

"thin and ambiguous" I don't have a problem with, it's obvious that's your opinion already.

If you expand it to "outright fabricated" and I object to that, it's primarily because that comment is complete bollocks.  So please don't blame me for jumping on the bollocks part of your post that you don't wish to defend, you said it not me.
Big Gulp
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Reply #503 on: May 30, 2007, 02:54:58 PM

Spreading the "CCP is corrupt" message all over the internet on such thin and ambiguous, if not ouright fabricated, evidence, goes far beyond that.

The problem is that the "CCP is corrupt" meme is still very much true.  Didn't we just discuss the whole "rigging the game, not being fired" thing?  Their hand has already been caught in the cookie jar.  They are corrupt.  I don't see how spreading that message is doing anyone a disservice, unless you're so caught up in your point and click space adventure/spreadsheet program that you don't want anyone upsetting the apple cart.
JoeTF
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Reply #504 on: May 30, 2007, 02:58:31 PM

Consider BoB has been doing this for quite some time it's pretty amusing that they came out just now saying it's an exploit.

So did Coalition forces.
Really, who is trying to spin things here?
Tbh, you guys are more biased than goonswarm threadnaught.
MahrinSkel
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When she crossed over, she was just a ship. But when she came back... she was bullshit!


Reply #505 on: May 30, 2007, 03:00:07 PM

The T20 incident was nearly 2 years ago, although the BPO's were not public knowledge until a few months ago.  CCP admitted to it, and created the IA department to police things.  The actual evidence that CCP is systematically corrupt and the IA division is just a white-wash is beyond thin, the very suggestion would be ludicrous if the Goons weren't repeating it and agreeing with each other about it on every possible forum.  Posting it a million times doesn't make it more substantial.

--Dave

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Big Gulp
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Reply #506 on: May 30, 2007, 03:04:25 PM

The actual evidence that CCP is systematically corrupt and the IA division is just a white-wash is beyond thin,

Umm, the actual evidence is that the devs involved aren't collecting unemployment right now.  The actual evidence is that BoB apparently still has a batphone directly to the developers from which they can get results in minutes, whereas most petitions don't get resolved in weeks.

I don't need much more evidence than that.
MahrinSkel
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When she crossed over, she was just a ship. But when she came back... she was bullshit!


Reply #507 on: May 30, 2007, 03:07:25 PM

In fact, several Devs and GM's have been fired for such activities.  T20 is apparently one of the founders, and as a stockholder somewhat difficult to fire.  Back to the question: What would be sufficient evidence to convince you?  Keep in mind that "has lots of people convinced they are cheaters in an internet spaceships game" is probably not grounds for summary wholesale terminations under Icelandic law.

--Dave

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JoeTF
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Reply #508 on: May 30, 2007, 03:09:57 PM

Actual timeline of this particular saga:

Evil Thug starts POS bowling against BoB, a few months ago.
CCP: This is an exploit, please cease immediately.
ET: Ok, I'll stop.

A couple of weeks pass.

BoB's multiple titan pilots start POS bowling against RA/GS/etc., and stealing ships.
RA/GS/etc: /petition WTF?
CCP: This is not an exploit, and we will not punish anybody for it.
Evil Thug: All righty then *starts stealing multiple BoB ships via POS bowling*

A week or two passes.

CCP (today): POS bowling is an exploit. Please stop.

That timeline is pure bullshit.
Furiously
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Reply #509 on: May 30, 2007, 03:10:12 PM

But, be honest here: Do the goons even *care* if any of this is true?  Or is it just a useful hammer to grief the developers with?  What would be sufficient evidence to convince you CCP was honest?

They are doing a really bad job managing this. First they bunker down then pop up with "Here's some evidence and ignore the man behind the curtain."

Here's the issue with their ignoring the IM/speed-dial thing. Everyone knows it's true. The problem is they STILL need to put in a policy that says, "If a customer IM's you for help, don't help. Refer them to the proper channel. Also berate them for trying to use you like that and question their friendship." This isn't rocket science.

Whoever it was that sent the message to their guild that said, "No let me IM so and so." needs to get a slap, the so and so needs to get a new job for not being able to seperate work and play.

So - I'm CCP, what do I do?? I have a meeting with my IA people. I go totally transparent.

I grab my video camera. Start taping. I then call a staff meeting. I announce unfortunately it seems like some people are having problems seperating their work identity from their game identity. This has to stop. Effective immediately, we are all taking on a 3 month special project. The Jovians are invading or some other RP, and they are all going to be NPCs while we determine if we are influcing the game too much in our alliances. It will be unacceptable to log in with ANY of their normal characters after the next 15 minutes. Log in and say bye. I then post video on internet.

IA then monitors employee accounts and I have a talk with the dunce that trys to log in anyways so they can give someone something "They had to have!!!!" After two months I should know how bad of a problem I have and if I need to put other checks and balances into the game for employee involvement.

Big Gulp
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Reply #510 on: May 30, 2007, 03:11:40 PM

Back to the question: What would be sufficient evidence to convince you?  Keep in mind that "has lots of people convinced they are cheaters in an internet spaceships game" is probably not grounds for summary wholesale terminations under Icelandic law.

It's unacceptable that they're still in the positions they held, then.  If socialist employment laws won't let you can somebody you make them "food and beverage director".

Jesus, is it really that difficult?
Ratadm
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Reply #511 on: May 30, 2007, 03:26:36 PM

Interestingly there is a really good discussion with some of the head bob guys going on over at http://www.scrapheap-challenge.com/ as to pos bowling it worked both ways thug stole 3 carriers and 20 bs .  I also think it was more of a case of no set policy so gm's just made stuff up as they went and different gms came to different conclusions.

Edit: changed numbers on thug's bowling to his own.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2007, 03:31:25 PM by Ratadm »
ajax34i
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Reply #512 on: May 30, 2007, 03:27:12 PM

Back to the question: What would be sufficient evidence to convince you? 

--Dave

I don't think there's anything they could do to convince me, not because I'm difficult to convince, but because what they need to do is impossible.  They can't open their company's internal policies and setup up to the public, and that suggestion with the videotaped staff meeting is nice, but they will be speaking their native language, which most of us don't understand anyway.

They don't just have to prove that these allegations are false, they have to also prove that they're straight up, honest, and not involved in the game, and that they will stay that way from now on.  No dev house has opened up to the public like this, and I don't think any will in the future (because the public can be jerks, too).  It's not even worth it, why bother, for a game that's past its prime and will be abandoned when they release their next title, which they've announced already?  Who cares about EVE anymore.

If I were them I'd forget about this game and try to put a positive spin and start with a new image on the next one, when they start publicizing it more.
Arthur_Parker
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Reply #513 on: May 30, 2007, 03:33:36 PM

http://goonfleet.com/reply_to_CCP.html

Quote
This is a response to CCP's DevBlog located at http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=472 in which we will address CCP's responses, what they didn't say and also respond to the allegations that they make.

Dear CCP,

It's nice to see such a public and indepth response to the allegations that were brought forward rather than the usual quiet response of "nothing to see here, move along". If your response to the previous set of allegations had been this public and this indepth then perhaps the perception of your company would have changed from what it is now, and that's really the issue here, the perception of impropriety.

It doesn't matter if your hands are clean now or not, the fact remains that hands were caught in the cookie jar and the response to those allegations was lackluster at best, resulting in the perception that your company is supporting certain entities over others. You have done much to address this perception with your response to the recent set of allegations but this is tempered by your backhanded comments towards GoonFleet and you still have a long way to go.

Let us now address your response to the first issue, a CCP developer joining a GoonSwarm corporation. You claim the dev was responding to a petition that was filed by a DS1 member over a POS bug and we accept this. In fact we suggested that this could be the very reason however the CEO of the corporation does not recall filing this petition, nor could anybody else in his corporation recall filing the petition so a second petition was filed asking for the reason the CCP developer joined the corporation.

This petition was closed without comment and this what set off alarm bells and is something that you did not address in your response. Had a GM responsed with "A petition was opened due to issue X and the developer took these actions to correct the issue" then this would have been a non-issue. Had Sharkbait himself sent a corporate email saying "I joined to fix issue X that was petitioned" this would have been a non-issue. What happened was a developer joined the corporation for no reason that that the CEO knew of and when the CEO attempted to get answers he was met with a wall of silence. So the question remains, why was the petition asking for the reason Sharkbait joined the corporation closed without comment? Why did Sharkbait himself not send an EVEMail as others have indicated they received in the past when this happened? Either of these actions would have quelled any resulting outcry over these actions.

We are pleased that CCP acknowledges that developers joining and leaving corporations can be misconstrued and addressed this in the dev blog by stating "Joining and leaving corporations has long been a tool GMs and developers alike utilize when investigating petitions or bug reports. As this has [sic]deemed unacceptable to some of our players, we will notify the petitioning corporation via EVEmail if this is necessary.". We would like to add this such an email should always be necessary when a CCP employee or volunteer joins a corporation or takes any actions that may result in the perception that something nefarious is taking place. We would even suggest that CCP consider creating a 'Corporate Petition' system where petitions that are filed by individuals on behalf of a corporation (such as for POS bugs or corporate BPO issues, etc) are viewable by all directors of the corporation to avoid similiar issues in the future.

As to the allegations of rigging, you say none occurs while we have seen differently in game, or was the ability for an alliance to suddenly have freighters worth of materials onsite to complete a scavenger event to claim a mothership merely coincidence? While this may not be your intention your reliance on outside volunteers compromises your integrity in this. You cannot monitor their communications. You cannot determine that they aren't feeding information to their friends or other entities based on their personal bias. You are relying on unpaid volunteers without any checks that we are aware of in place to stop the flow of information outward. Your response, as always is "there is no evidence to support these claims" despite unlikely response times or people just happening to be in the right place at the right time. In this it is your word against others and unfortunately your word holds little value at this point.

On the ISD firing we consider the entire thing to be highly suspect. You claim there were multiple complaints against him but the timing of the entire thing stinks. He claims he was using standard commands to observe the battle, BoB members claim he was bumping them repeatedly. A BoB member claims to have an MSN contact for a developer, minutes later a developer is on the ISD IRC screaming at the reporter. 3 hours later the reporter is banned. You never did address the IRC incident or the timing. You managed to just deflect the allegations under a shield of "we had complaints and this was coming". Never mind the timing, or the perception surrounding the allegations or the perception of a cover-up. Your response does little to remove the doubts that exist. Those who believe that the ISD firing was justified will continue to believe so. Those that believe that there is something more sinister here will continue to believe that. Little has been done here to convince either side.

Now we come to the allegations that this was a deliberately co-ordinated attempt to smear CCP. This is unequivocably false. Originally we were going to post about these issues on the EVE forum to bring them to light and then wait for CCP's response. CCP's response to this was to delete the letter. Due to the way issues in the past were handled we do not currently have any faith in the IA department to properly investigate and address issues without the greater pressure of the EVE user base calling for these investigations. We attempted to bring about this pressure through the exposure of the issues and CCP's response was to simply delete the thread. Had a moderator simply locked the thread with a response saying "We are investigating these issues and will respond accordingly" then that would have been the end of it because at least the issues would be in the public eye and could not be buried.

Once it became clear that CCP was going to attempt to bury the issue through deleting the thread our members responded via the only avenue open to them, they made posts. They posted links to the open letter highlighting the accusations. They told people about it in game and our members also brought it to the attention of outside media through the use of Slashdot and Digg. By throwing such a bright spotlight on the issue we did something that an email to the IA department would not do. We forced CCP to respond in a swift and public manner and for this we make no apologies.

There was no premeditated plan to bring CCP down, despite comments in the dev blog to the contrary, or CCP's insinuations that they are reading our private forums. To state that simply because some people who don't normally post on their boards did that there was some form of co-ordinated "attack" is just silly. It was not the weight of the posts that brought the forums offline as was evident by the fact that both the forums and the rest of the systems remained responsive. CCP chose to offline the forums when it became apparent they would not be able to moderate the accusations away. As most of the posts were simple links back to the open letter we would have in fact be attempting to DoS ourselves with traffic, which was obviously not the case.

We, GoonFleet, love the game that CCP has created. EVE Online is something unique in the world of MMO's. It is a player driven game that has real consequences to combat. It is an economic simulator of unparalleled complexity. It allows players to participate according to his/her play style from being in combat to fueling POSes to building items for the war effort. It is this kind of open ended game play and lack of boundaries that draw us to this game. It is for these reasons that we truly do want to see EVE succeed and grow for many years to come.

What is disliked about the game is the perceived bias in the game. Even if no bias is present the actions of your developers and of various community members creates the perception of bias and it is this perception that you need to correct. BoB members admit to having CCP members on the MSN contact lists. CCP developers socialize with BoB members in other areas. The lackluster response to the T2 BPO scandal. Petition responses changing based on the GM that responds and the situation. All of these contribute to a perception that the game is biased and perception is everything. CCP needs to address these perception issues, especially since employee fraternization with other alliances is apparently forbidden.

I will now tell you the story of a GM, GM Eldini. Several members of GoonFleet attended the FanFest in 2006 and while there they befriended a GM by the name of 'Eldini'. This GM possessed the same sarcastic humor and wit that appeals to Goons and was invited to join our forums and partake in discussions that take place on our forums of which only a small percentage actually deals with EVE directly. After the to be expected period of "hey, a GM, cool" question and answer round, he settled in and was readily accepted as just another 'goon'. From the beginning it was made clear by the directorate that GM Eldini was just there to socialize and that any goon attempting to get any special treatment from the association, even in jest, would be banned. We wanted to protect both ourselves and GM Eldini from any possible accusations of bias. This relationship lasted for about a week before GM Eldini indicated that he was forced to remove himself from the Goon community and, while it was never stated, it was implied that his employment was threatened over the relationship. Apparently BoB can socialize with CCP employees but heaven forbid that another corporation or alliance create a friendship with a CCP employee.

Either CCP employees need to remove all BoB contacts and place them on ignore or CCP should publish the MSN contacts for all members to be able to have a direct line to the developers. No Developer, Employee or ISD member should be able to respond to any petition or take any action for or against any corporation their characters are members of. GM's need to all get on the same page on their responses and policies. It seems that when there is an unexpected result of a game mechanic that benefits GoonFleet, we are told it's an exploit. If an opposing corporation does it and we petition it we are told that it is allowed. We have begun compiling examples of these conflicting responses so that a record can be established. All of these actions are what contribute to the perception and feeling of bias from within CCP.

EVE is a remarkable accomplishment by CCP. The game they have created is truly a wonder and they should be proud of it. But there are issues that while not directly releated to game play are related to the game and CCP needs to take greater steps to clean up its perceived bias, to straighten out GM responses and to improve its customer service. We are not asking for a day by day log of everything that goes on in CCP, but we are asking that CCP take further steps to increase its transparency when these issues are brought up such as not deleting public accusations but instead keeping them public and addressing them. Until the perception of bias goes away and steps are taken to make sure it doesn't come back we will continue to make sure that issues are brought into the light, that issues cannot be buried and that all of the member base of EVE is made aware that these issues exist.

- GoonFleet

Not sure it's the final version but it's already on eveo and foh.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2007, 03:50:32 PM by Arthur_Parker »
MahrinSkel
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When she crossed over, she was just a ship. But when she came back... she was bullshit!


Reply #514 on: May 30, 2007, 03:55:35 PM

The problem is that there's a great deal of "bad faith" in the goons side of this.  At the leadership, old-school, Something Awful level of the goons, the goals are about comedy, about making anyone who takes a game too seriously look ridiculous, then taking pictures so you can point and laugh in public.  Culture-jamming in the MMO-sphere.

Along the way, though, they've attracted a lot of people for whom the means is the desired end.  Where griefing is the whole point, and the goons are just a convenient shelter to grant community and legitimacy.  And for that contingent, these issues of professionalism and favoritism aren't about whether they're bad for the game, they're about "griefing at the developer level".  They don't want to improve the game, they want to destroy it.  And the old school tolerates them because after all, no better way to show how meaningless and pointless all the drama in the game is, then by burning it all to the ground.

Do I take the "internet spaceships" too seriously?  I don't think so, although i enjoy the game a lot and I've never had a game give me the same sense of fulfillment I got last Sunday morning when I anchored and started the build on my corp's new outpost, thereby forever changing the basic geography of the game, I *do* realize it's just a game and that accomplishment means nothing outside of that context.  Taken on it's own terms, inside the context of the game, the relationships and events are real, but they aren't of the same degree as those I have with my family, my professional colleagues, or in most cases with my RL social circle in general.

I've been playing online games for 15 years, and working on them for 8, and I've gotten pretty good at seperating the two.  In this case, as a *gamer* I find the typical goon behaviour in game (griefing, scamming, trolling) to be something I don't like and avoided contact with, but up until this incident I didn't really have much of an opinion about it as a developer.

In Eve, the Goons have been steadily escalating and one-upping each other.  From small-scale griefing, scamming, and trolling, up to Corp Theft and IPO scams, to using social engineering to start the biggest war Eve had ever seen.  All of this was entertaining in it's own way, and I've been very earnestly studying it for the lessons it has to teach.  But now they've escalated to the point where I can no longer judge them strictly as a gamer, but have to view them as a designer and as a businessman.  And the implications are scary.

As scandals go, CCP's transgressions aren't much.  Compared to what used to happen in UO, they're nothing, and I could tell you some stories about what I saw in EQ....  In the ordinary course of events, I would be chiding CCP for their lack of professionalism, and probably in strong enough terms to pretty much guarantee I'd never get to work for them.  But the Goons are going way beyond that, with an organized campaign of disinformation and psychological warfare that is *certain* to have serious impacts on CCP as a business, and on Eve as a game, that are far out of proportion to what has actually happened.  It's hard to believe the goons when they say "it's just internet spaceships, lighten up", when they're calling for wholesale firings and running smear campaigns that will cost CCP millions of very real dollars.  It seems...disingenuous, for them to claim the insubstantialness of it as granting them the moral high ground, while they work so hard to translate the virtual into the real.  And it seems to show that there really *isn't* any line there, to begin with.

--Dave
« Last Edit: May 30, 2007, 04:14:14 PM by MahrinSkel »

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Ravandor
Terracotta Army
Posts: 34


Reply #515 on: May 30, 2007, 04:58:28 PM

I have no part in the war itself, and have only been playing since the beginning of the year.  About the only way the war comes close to affecting me is the rise in mineral prices after a big battle.  Personally, I enjoyed EVE because I was able to find a nice, empty chunk of space and do some mining.  (Yeah, I know, but I always found it to be a good way to unwind at the end of the day.)

Watching these “scandals” unfold has been mildly interesting, but really has nothing at all to do with me.  The thing is, with everything I’ve seen it seems like the goons are the lesser of two evils at this point.  They’re obviously having fun finding everything they can that’s even mildly suspicious, throwing it at the wall, and seeing what sticks.  The catch here is that CCP apparently has no idea how to behave like the grown-up in the relationship and do the mature thing.  All they’ve done is try to ignore the problem and hope it goes away.  When that doesn’t work, they pull the “it’s being taken care of, and no we won’t tell you what we’re doing.”  The latest dev-blog is the newest tack, apparently trying to get the goons to go sit in the corner and take a time out with the only reasoning of “because I said so” to support it.  Not to mention the fact that they refuse to discuss the BOB-CCP MSN hotline, which is the most damning part of the whole thing.

Then you’ve got the BOB forum contingent, which is helping their side even less.  They seem to only have two possible responses:
1)   We’re better than you, get over it. 
2)   Goons are liars, cheaters, griefers, and scammers.  Thus, I am obviously in the right, and the rest of you are wrong.

And before you ask, when I logged in to read the dev-blog a couple days ago I just stayed logged in and canceled my account.  I'd like to think that when a company shows such disdain for a large percentage of their playerbase, they’ll feel some sort of repercussion
Fmar
Terracotta Army
Posts: 18


Reply #516 on: May 30, 2007, 05:03:35 PM

What would be sufficient evidence to convince you?

-CCP to say to the players & their employees:
Quote
"We are now monitoring all forms of communication including instant messenger at the workplace.  You can continue to talk to your friends, but you must never ever discuss the game in any fashion that will bring accusations of impropriety.

Furthermore, Internal Affairs will be acting like security/investigation agents with the integrity of the game firstmost in mind.
We know sometimes things are not handled the perfect way, but we hope improve upon our procedures & to put an end the negative perceptions the community might have of us"

Done.
Arthur_Parker
Terracotta Army
Posts: 5865

Internet Detective


Reply #517 on: May 30, 2007, 05:13:15 PM

By far the best bit of playing eve was access to the goonfleet forums.  Going to repost something you might have seen before but it made me laugh, it's from the war with LV.

Quote
hey guys dont ever spam local again or something

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

GM Sunshine > Good evening
Remedial > Hi there, what's up
GM Sunshine > We have been recieving several petitions regarding your members spamming local during combat
GM Sunshine > and we would like you to stop this this instant
Remedial > Totally false. We only fofofo one line each, and only after we win a battle
GM Sunshine > regardless
Remedial > If you check the chatlogs compared to LV killmails, you'll see that I am telling the truth
GM Sunshine > stop this
Remedial > I also don't control every single goon in GoonSwarm. I typed fofofo and then everybody else did
GM Sunshine > you are there figure head and leader, if you are unable to get them to do stop this, then who is?
Remedial > Well, you could always go to the offenders and talk to them personally rather than holding me accountable every time a goonswarm member gets petitioned
Remedial > I mean, I just love having a GM tell me to stop 2500 different players from performing an action
Remedial > But it's pretty much beyond my control. I don't even have a mic on TS right now
Remedial > Really you should probably just delete local entirely, as that's clearly why LV is losing the war in Detorid
GM Sunshine > local chat and LV's ability is not up for discussion here, your members behaviour is
GM Sunshine > let's stick to that
Remedial > Ok: you are a GM, I'm some fat guy on the internet in charge of a SPACE GUILD. I think you should go to people who break rules and bust their balls, not mine. I don't get to enforce rules because you know, fat guy on the internet.
Remedial > So when somebody renames a station to DEAD FAGGOTS or somebody screams "SMOSKE SUCKS" in #BobChat or somebody spams local with Fofofo, I really shouldn't be the person you convo.
GM Sunshine > you may not run the internet, but for all intents and purposes, you run Goonswarm
Remedial > Ok, I'll post a thread telling people not to spam fofofo on Eve-O.
GM Sunshine > how you get your members to stop this is not my concern, just do it
Remedial > Ok, so if "my guys" keep doing it, does that mean you're going to ban my account for non-compliance with an impossible order?
Remedial > Or will you just start gagging offenders in local so they can't spam
Remedial > PS voting option #2
GM Sunshine > I will not warn you for this in any way or form
GM Sunshine > regardless if you do comply this time or not
Remedial > Living up to your name every day, sweetcheeks!
GM Sunshine > but your actions will affect future decisions
Remedial > I'd like to elevate this complaint please
Remedial > Can I talk to your manager?
Remedial > Is he wearing a nametag?
Remedial > Or like a special hat or something
GM Sunshine > you can file a petition
Remedial > Should I file it under stuck?
GM Sunshine > you can do that
Remedial > I love you GM Sunshine, you're my favorite GM in this chatroom
GM Sunshine > considering I'm the only GM in here, I'll take that with a pinch of salt
Remedial > /emote takes off his shirt.
Remedial > 16/m/FL
Remedial > u??
GM Sunshine > Immortal, male, Game masters
Remedial > /emote puts on his robe and wizard hatt.
Remedial > /emote massages ur master.
Remedial > OH GOD BEES BEES GET THEM OFF

Quote
Remedial > Goons please don't fofofo anymore as you're causing LV to lose the war
GM Sunshine > but...
Nweilin Ng > oh noes, GM
Nova Cygni > fofofofofo
Magere > fofofofofo
Kerevar > fofofofofofofo
Stradiot > fofofo
Althera > fofofo
Eyud > fofofofofofofofofofofofofofofofofofofofofof
Hotokhe > fofofo
Vera Nosfyu > fofofo
Contez > fofofofo
Zinrix > fofofo
Arthur Miller > fofofofoof
Ilarra > fofofofofofo
Arthenis > fofofofo
Woobins > fofofofofofo
SPACE BEEZ > foofoofo
Psyyke > fofofofoof
Ilucid > fofofo
Captain Tabouli > fofofo
Innominate > fofofo
Margaret Houlihan > fofofo
FreeOJ > fofofofofofo
Bane Glorious > NOOOOO
SPACE BEEZ > foofofo
SamHandwich > fofofofofoof
Enormus > fofofof
Von Kleist > fofofofofofo
Saldio Banderas > fofofo
RedhawkMillionaire > fofofofofofo
Monopthalmus > fofofo
Vintage Uno > fofofof
Johanen > fofofofofofofofo
Svaha Norbu > fofofofo
HydroSan > fofofo
Pyrosquee > fofofof
inferno sun > fofofofo
The StrayDawg > fofofofof
General Brusilov > fofofo
Habe Quiddam > fofofo
Scavok > fofofofoffo
ShadowImage > fofofo
Sherkaner Lumpen > fofofofo
Zarimax Mishka > fofofofofofo
Sporadicus Hue > fofofo
Darkxray > fofofofofof
Ska La > fofofof
Ianaa > fofoofofo
Tandrea Lei > fofofofofo
Eronarn Palazzo > fofofofofofofofofofo
Brick Bossload > let the record stand that mcgaver is would kick the crap outta james bond any day
Remedial > NO DONT WHAT HAVE YOU DONe
Agmar > you're a pretty professional leader Remedial
Crivens > goons and their' lagspoilts
Remedial > STOP STOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOP
Variso Ageo > Remedial: it's when your team loses carriers and keeps coming that I'm worried about the war.
K'Bar > ok guys lets chill man its only a game
Swirler > omg! I am lagging so bad now!!! stop that!!
GM Sunshine > I will only ask this once Goons
Gramtar > haha another LV pos just went BOOM!
Brick Bossload > cya pos
GM Sunshine > stop spamming local like you did just now
Faust
Terracotta Army
Posts: 215


Reply #518 on: May 30, 2007, 05:18:03 PM

"Remedial > Ok: you are a GM, I'm some fat guy on the internet in charge of a SPACE GUILD. I think you should go to people who break rules and bust their balls, not mine. I don't get to enforce rules because you know, fat guy on the internet."


I'd like to print that out and frame it, plz.

Kin Rha
Sutro
Terracotta Army
Posts: 165


Reply #519 on: May 30, 2007, 05:19:18 PM

As with all things of this nature, I figure the answers are pretty simple and somewhere in the middle.

RP Events Rigged - Of course they are. Duh. It's the nature of the beast. Every time there's a RP event, there is a "preferred conclusion," even if it exists only in the head of the writer. Live RP events are one of those great on paper, godawful in execution concepts. It's a Catch-22 - if you want to move a story along with in-game mechanics and any addition of in-game objects, it either has to be a closed story and not open to participation or rigged. You can't develop with an if/and/or tree and still maintain any appreciable degree of story pacing.

As far as the individual ISD guy goes, his transcripts make him look like an ass. When you're a volunteer, being an ass is more than enough grounds to get you terminated. Apparently the IRC transcript was not the only time he had been an ass.

BoB Favoritism - Yep. Many of BoB are EVE's core players, back when they were sending out press releases at every 1,000 concurrent user increment. They've also been on the bleeding-edge of development, sending out the front line of bug reports and able to immediately implement and advise on the leading edge of high content. When you do that, you make contacts. There's a natural desire to understand more about the problems from people who are executing them from the developers, thus they look them up on MSN and chat for a bit and get the scoop.

Goonfleet does none of this, both from no intent to be helpful and that they're relative latecomers to the party. So yes, the developers like BoB better than Goonfleet, and their reactions to actions from both parties will be concurrent to that. I find the story about the Goonfleet GM pretty believable.

What I suspect is a cultural expectations difference. CCP responds to these things in a manner totally unlike a NA company of its revenue size would do. But, the responses look markedly similar to some of the responses I've seen from smaller MUD developers with communities in the ~1,000 - 2,500 range.

Now, I know absolutely nothing about Icelandic culture, but knowing some general things about culture and going off of a few Web searches, I'm going to make a few hypotheses and get yelled at for stereotyping. So here goes.

Keep in mind what Iceland is. It's an expanding rock with a lot of fish around it and one big city.  Ninety-six percent of its inhabitants belong to a single religious denomination. (Evangelical Lutheran, fyi!) When you live in this kind of hardtack land, you get an ingrained sense of cultural interdependence. There's so little habitable land in Iceland that if you have a disagreement, or break some rules, or whatever, you can't just up and move away. You can't be a singular unit - you have to interact with others, make deals with them, smooth things over, just make things work. You don't burn any bridges because odds are you're going to have to cross that bridge again.

In NA, we can write off people no problem. You're in Cali and going to lose your house because you got fired? Move to Nevada and restart your life as a fry cook. In Iceland it's not so easy. The community is so intermingled and isolated that firing/blackballing/shaming someone not only creates much more relative trauma in their life, but creates more backlash on you. So the natural response when these kind of bad things surface is to look at the elements of good and worth - instead of the singular black marks that get you termed in the U.S. - and fix the environment, not the person. CCP, as a company, seems to follow my hypothesis pretty well.

Members of BoB, as stated earlier, have been very helpful to CCP in some endeavours and no doubt CCP appreciates this and communicates with those people in what we in NA consider wholly inappropriate because they're in the same boat - pulling the same rope - etc. In a sense, they're much more part of the team than the pole's length that NA companies expect between customer and vendor. As far as what NA customers expect, it's wholly incestuous. This isn't bad or wrong, but it IS different. When Goonfleet comes in, offering nothing of value and tearing down people that have been part of the team socially, verbally, in-game, etc., CCP's individuals tolerate them only as much as they have to. CCP's response clearly shows they could absolutely care less if every GF desubbed right now. Assuming my hypotheses are correct, not knowing this leads to some pretty ugly stuff, as we've seen.

EVE is a microcosm of Iceland itself, even. It was designed to force interdependence, in fact, it's by far the most interdependent game world in existence right now. To CCP, the notion of Pax BoB probably isn't as abhorrent as it is to NA customers, and thus they feel comfortable sending the only other major force in EVE up the river.

And again, please note that I don't think of this as bad or wrong; it's just a different way of doing things than what NA customers expect. But since CCP relies on NA customers, they're either going to have to trim their playerbase down to people who are OK with this way of thinking or become, well, Blizzard. No pun intended.

-Sutro

Miasma
Terracotta Army
Posts: 5283

Stopgap Measure


Reply #520 on: May 30, 2007, 06:07:43 PM

fofofofo

GM Sunshine > stop spamming local like you did just now
Didn't that GM wind up being one of your enemies too?
SansWetware
Terracotta Army
Posts: 21


Reply #521 on: May 30, 2007, 06:11:08 PM

I have never seen evidence of BoB bug-removal.  Rather, they are widely known for going to every length to use these bugs to their advantage for as long as possible.  Remember the "you shot through the PoS shields!" fiasco that dragged on for months and months?  Proof was finally established that such a thing had occurred and, lo and behold, it suddenly became a "known feature" with a very lame "oh and this is how it has always worked!" explanation.  Such an explanation was only forthcoming once CCP was shown evidence that the incident even happened.  Nevermind that it had been brought up countless times in petition and on their official forums.

It's just an anecdotal example, but more exist.  I do not buy that they are some super-helpful, bug-squashing brainiacs.  I don't discount that members have been helpful at times either, though.  The same is true of GoonFleet and the titan manifesto - and many other corporations/alliances.

Most intelligent, longterm players have the means and ability to provide CCP with aid in bug-removal.  It seems to have fallen to one group.  Where is the outcry at RA/CCP intermingling... or IAC/CCP intermingling?  It does not exist because... it does not exist.

I will account for cultural differences, but their actions in the past have still been corrupt.  T20 was caught and reprimanded long before the scandal was public but the blueprints he gifted BoB were only recovered after public outcry (much much later).  Doubtful Icelandic isolated culture accounts for that sort of decision making.

(Hi f13 people!)
LC
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Posts: 908


Reply #522 on: May 30, 2007, 06:36:48 PM

Consider BoB has been doing this for quite some time it's pretty amusing that they came out just now saying it's an exploit.
Actual timeline of this particular saga:

Evil Thug starts POS bowling against BoB, a few months ago.
CCP: This is an exploit, please cease immediately.
ET: Ok, I'll stop.

A couple of weeks pass.

BoB's multiple titan pilots start POS bowling against RA/GS/etc., and stealing ships.
RA/GS/etc: /petition WTF?
CCP: This is not an exploit, and we will not punish anybody for it.
Evil Thug: All righty then *starts stealing multiple BoB ships via POS bowling*

A week or two passes.

CCP (today): POS bowling is an exploit. Please stop.

That's bullshit and you know it. Nobody in BoB wanted pos bowling to be fixed. I haven't even heard of ET bowling any ships since the first round when he knocked out that afk carrier. The real reason they decided to fix it is because the Chowdown group has been bowling every POS in the north for a week. I'm sure they were bombarded with petitions about it. 
Reg
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Posts: 5270


Reply #523 on: May 30, 2007, 06:48:55 PM

OK, now compare Arthur's chat log with the average deathly earnest and/or indignant post from one of the local ever-so-important BoB supporters.

Who would you rather see win the war?
MahrinSkel
Terracotta Army
Posts: 10857

When she crossed over, she was just a ship. But when she came back... she was bullshit!


Reply #524 on: May 30, 2007, 07:08:48 PM

OK, now compare Arthur's chat log with the average deathly earnest and/or indignant post from one of the local ever-so-important BoB supporters.

Who would you rather see win the war?
And there, you have captured the essence of it.  How you answer that question is a sort of Rorschach test for your attitude towards the "virtual society" viewpoint of MMO's, and for online communities in general.  If you're on one side of that divide, nothing the other side says makes any sense at all.

Here's the kicker, though: If you're not a subsistence farmer or primitive hunter-gatherer, it's *all* virtual.  All of this drama is just the diffident way we treat "virtual stuff we haven't agreed to treat real yet."

--Dave

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