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f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  The Gaming Graveyard  |  MMOG Discussion  |  Eve Online  |  Topic: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9! 0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.
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Author Topic: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!  (Read 441114 times)
Ironwood
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Reply #175 on: February 15, 2007, 03:21:08 AM

You're a fucking moron.

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
Endie
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Reply #176 on: February 15, 2007, 03:39:02 AM

There's this completely unfounded presumption the cheating only went on single side and affected just one party.

When it's pointed out "it was only one guy" the haters jump up and down in nerd rage spitting and screaming "lies! lies! only one was caught, they are all cheaters, Band of Developers!". Well, if we accept this logic then it must be applied to all equally -- there's zero reason to believe other devs weren't "helping" other alliances as well, they just didn't get caught (yet).

And when everyone is cheating, then no one is.

I'd love to introduce you to my friend, Occam, and his razor.  Although just any old razor, properly introduced to you, would nicely improve the average grasp of logic round here.

Edit: dumb spelling fixed
« Last Edit: February 15, 2007, 03:49:59 PM by Endie »

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ajax34i
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Reply #177 on: February 15, 2007, 06:51:54 AM

Arkanon's Blog posted two days ago mentions something about "cheating" and how he's going to eradicate it or something.  Basically, their Internal Affairs division will be like a GM division but for dev accounts, with investigations and bannings and the whole 9 yds.  His actions are in turn reviewed by a committee to ensure that he's not playing favorites.
Ironwood
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Reply #178 on: February 15, 2007, 07:03:28 AM

I wonder how many times he re-drafted that.

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
ajax34i
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Reply #179 on: February 15, 2007, 07:11:40 AM

Probably many times; the section about how devs should play the game but not be leaders of factions mirrors feelings expressed on these boards.  It's a precisely-written piece.
Merusk
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Reply #180 on: February 15, 2007, 09:28:05 AM

How appropriate, you fight like a cow.

No, hang on....

Damnit, now I have find some emulators for the older ones.  Curse you.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2007, 11:20:50 AM by Yoru »

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Sparky
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Reply #181 on: February 15, 2007, 09:43:54 AM

Probably many times; the section about how devs should play the game but not be leaders of factions mirrors feelings expressed on these boards.  It's a precisely-written piece.

If that becomes policy it'll be enough for me, but he was asked a few times for clarification and it seems like it's just personal opinion.
Morat20
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Reply #182 on: February 15, 2007, 10:20:55 AM

How appropriate, you fight like a cow.


No, hang on....

Damnit, now I have find some emulators for the older ones.  Curse you.
You know, you'd think more companies would do the "Revamp Older Games" thing. I think I saw Sierra had bundled up some old games (Space Quest?) with an emulator, so you could just "plug-and-play" -- but I'd like to see more total revamps like Pirates.

I'd love to play Betrayal at Krondor with modern graphics and RPG concepts, for one. And replay the Monkey Island games where I can get sound on the older ones...:)
« Last Edit: February 15, 2007, 11:21:05 AM by Yoru »
eldaec
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Reply #183 on: February 15, 2007, 10:34:48 AM

You know, you'd think more companies would do the "Revamp Older Games" thing. I think I saw Sierra had bundled up some old games (Space Quest?) with an emulator, so you could just "plug-and-play" -- but I'd like to see more total revamps like Pirates.

You're in luck, we have several fine sub-forums dedicated to EQ revamps on this very website.

 Rimshot

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Evangolis
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Reply #184 on: February 15, 2007, 12:57:25 PM

It has been brought to light that a Developer of the game, on the side of one of the biggest PvP Guilds, was using his Developer Tools to make that guild more powerful.  It doesn't matter to what extent he did that or what 'proportion' you'd like to assign it :  Suddenly, your PvP isn't meaningful at all.  It's fucking trivial.
There's this completely unfounded presumption the cheating only went on single side and affected just one party.

When it's pointed out "it was only one guy" the haters jump up and down in nerd rage spitting and screaming "lies! lies! only one was caught, they are all cheaters, Band of Developers!". Well, if we accept this logic then it must be applied to all equally -- there's zero reason to believe other devs weren't "helping" other alliances as well, they just didn't get caught (yet).

And when everyone is cheating, then no one is.

Sorry, but if everyone is cheating, then the game is a joke.

Here's a current example.

Quote
Old-timers, in fact, still talk in reverent tones about the day an aging Richard Petty finally got his 200th career win — on July 4, 1984, with President Reagan in the stands — as though it were ordained from on high. And it might have been. Petty, 47 at the time, never picked up No. 201, despite eight more years spent trying.

The greater and more dramatic the accomplishment, the more it becomes suspect in an environment of rampant cheating.

In the end, you wind up here.

On other matters:

How appropriate, you fight like a cow.


No, hang on....

Damnit, now I have find some emulators for the older ones.  Curse you.
You know, you'd think more companies would do the "Revamp Older Games" thing. I think I saw Sierra had bundled up some old games (Space Quest?) with an emulator, so you could just "plug-and-play" -- but I'd like to see more total revamps like Pirates.

I'd love to play Betrayal at Krondor with modern graphics and RPG concepts, for one. And replay the Monkey Island games where I can get sound on the older ones...:)

Ideas are cheap, the cost is all in the assets, so there isn't much advantage to retreading old games, particularly if the IP is owned by somebody else.

"It was a difficult party" - an unexpected word combination from ex-Merry Prankster and author Robert Stone.
Kamen
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Reply #185 on: February 15, 2007, 01:03:43 PM

It has been brought to light that a Developer of the game, on the side of one of the biggest PvP Guilds, was using his Developer Tools to make that guild more powerful.  It doesn't matter to what extent he did that or what 'proportion' you'd like to assign it :  Suddenly, your PvP isn't meaningful at all.  It's fucking trivial.

Agreed 100% - as long as your Eve game is the 0.0 alliance warfare thing.  I still maintain that is impossible to ever have unquestioned "meaningful" PvP as long as the dev's are logging in and fighting in the 0.0 wars.  Whether you know they are on one side or the other is irrelevant.  Knowing that they could be there turns every in game oddity into a tinfoil hat exercise.

To the best of my knowledge the dev's don't muck around much with us low life Empire scum.  This pleases me.  At least my carebearing and PvP is “meaningful” to me unless and until I hear they have pulled some shenanigans in Empire.  That’s pretty unlikely IMO as they consider the “real game” to be 0.0 warfare.  I consider 0.0 warfare boring as hell, so as long as our paths aren’t crossing I can tolerate their presence.
ajax34i
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Reply #186 on: February 15, 2007, 01:24:30 PM

"Everybody cheating" is an impossibility, because there aren't enough devs in the company to help out every single damn player in the game.  I mean, the only logical conclusion to devs being allowed to "help out" players is that they implement some sort of interface whereby any player can request, and get, dev help, via whatever process.  Then we're all on equal footing again, but the game goes to hell and the dev time ends up being spent all on player requests, instead of coding.

The one thing that bugs me about devs playing "competitively" is that I know the amount of time that has to be put in, and the addictions involved, to play "competitively" at the level where you're involved in leading or organizing an alliance.  And so, if they play that much, no wonder they don't have time to code a damn thing, and it takes them forever to implement new stuff, and it's full of bugs.  No wonder.  If I'm addicted to a game, my spare time and my work suffer, and so if my job is to code for said game, bugs aren't gonna get fixed and expansions aren't gonna get made on time.

They're losing credibility as a professional dev house on so many levels...
tmp
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Reply #187 on: February 15, 2007, 01:48:56 PM

I'd love to intriduce you to my friend, Occam, and his razor.  Although just any old razor, properly introduced to you, would nicely improve the average grasp of logic round here.
You will probably need to demonstrate it on EVE forum for the full effect. The idea that "just because only one dev was caught only means they are trying to cover up for other devs cheating for BoB" (and curiously enough, for no one else) isn't actually mine.
Sparky
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Reply #188 on: February 15, 2007, 01:52:13 PM

The one thing that bugs me about devs playing "competitively" is that I know the amount of time that has to be put in, and the addictions involved, to play "competitively" at the level where you're involved in leading or organizing an alliance.

Yeah that's why I think they shouldn't be in 0.0 alliance leadership positions.  It's pretty much impossible not to become emotionally involved when you have to catass that much.
Ironwood
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Reply #189 on: February 15, 2007, 02:16:21 PM

Quick Explanation of 0.0 ?  I am Ignorant.

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
Kamen
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Reply #190 on: February 15, 2007, 02:22:44 PM

Quick Explanation of 0.0 ?  I am Ignorant.


0.0 systems - Anything goes.

Low security systems (0.1 - 0.4) - PvP very possible, but some limited protection for carebears.

High security systems - PvP only possible if at war, you're willing to commit suicide, or the other guy does something very dumb.
Morat20
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Reply #191 on: February 15, 2007, 02:24:51 PM

Quick Explanation of 0.0 ?  I am Ignorant.
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Ironwood
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Reply #192 on: February 15, 2007, 02:25:16 PM

Then I agree with those who even mentioned the phrase 0.0.

 wink

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
ajax34i
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Reply #193 on: February 15, 2007, 02:28:49 PM

Eh?

0.0 : The areas of space around the empire regions (empire is at the center of the map), characterized by:

- no security standing loss if you shoot other players (FFA PVP)
- overall lack of NPC stations, thus creating the need for player-created structures, which have to be defended, so that your people can dock, repair, refit, etc.
- ability to "claim sovereignty" by filling each system in a region with said player-created starbases and/or camping the entry points so that no one can get in
- due to the low numbers of players in those systems (relative to empire), any movement of fleets / groups appears on the map (+/- half an hour delay), so it's easy to see an invasion unless they're sneaky about it
- the only place where some of these super-sized capital ships are allowed to fly
- "best" PVE resources (best asteroids, best NPC's) are generally in 0.0, though not everywhere in 0.0

"Empire" is where most of the PvE game takes place due to the fact that NPC stations (equivalent of cities in other MMOG's) are abundant, and because PvP is restricted.  0.0 is pretty much the FFA PvP area, and whole chunks of it are claimed by various alliances, and they fight over the territory and stuff.
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Reply #194 on: February 15, 2007, 02:47:39 PM

It's not so much that PvP is restricted in high-security space, it's that the cops (CONCORD) will vaporize your ship if you initiate hostilities.  This is very important to note if you are somehow under the impression that you can't be shot at in empire space.  It is "safe" insofar as you only have to survive long enough for the fuzz to show up and take down whoever is shooting at you.

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Morat20
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Reply #195 on: February 15, 2007, 02:52:00 PM

It's not so much that PvP is restricted in high-security space, it's that the cops (CONCORD) will vaporize your ship if you initiate hostilities.  This is very important to note if you are somehow under the impression that you can't be shot at in empire space.  It is "safe" insofar as you only have to survive long enough for the fuzz to show up and take down whoever is shooting at you.
Which, in .9 and 1.0 space, is "really fucking quick". However, if you know what you're doing -- you can vaporize a ship before CONCORD kills you, and then have a buddy loot it's wreck. It's why even .9 and 1.0 space isn't totally safe to fly in with valuable enough cargo.
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Reply #196 on: February 15, 2007, 03:00:05 PM

Note that even carebear-friendly empire space can become FFA. Two alliances or corps (simply a difference in scale) can declare war on each other, allowing FFA PVP anywhere at any time with no interference, as long as combat involves those two groups.
Morat20
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Reply #197 on: February 15, 2007, 03:15:38 PM

Note that even carebear-friendly empire space can become FFA. Two alliances or corps (simply a difference in scale) can declare war on each other, allowing FFA PVP anywhere at any time with no interference, as long as combat involves those two groups.
Speaking of, whatever happened to the corp that wardecced F13?
Yoru
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Reply #198 on: February 15, 2007, 03:51:46 PM

Note that even carebear-friendly empire space can become FFA. Two alliances or corps (simply a difference in scale) can declare war on each other, allowing FFA PVP anywhere at any time with no interference, as long as combat involves those two groups.
Speaking of, whatever happened to the corp that wardecced F13?

We're still wardecced. I have one report of them shooting at us and failing to accomplish anything. Not even a ship kill.
Morat20
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Reply #199 on: February 15, 2007, 04:02:41 PM

Note that even carebear-friendly empire space can become FFA. Two alliances or corps (simply a difference in scale) can declare war on each other, allowing FFA PVP anywhere at any time with no interference, as long as combat involves those two groups.
Speaking of, whatever happened to the corp that wardecced F13?

We're still wardecced. I have one report of them shooting at us and failing to accomplish anything. Not even a ship kill.
Well, I suppose if one were to get wardecced, getting wardecced by morons would be the best you could hope for.
Soln
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Reply #200 on: February 15, 2007, 05:15:19 PM

Empire Space won't protect you if people really want to get you and stay on you till you log.  Suicide alts, small frigates.... imagine that youtube of the gnome raid on Hogger.  Same thing, fewer numbers, less fun, and you're Hogger.
Morat20
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Reply #201 on: February 16, 2007, 09:51:16 AM

Empire Space won't protect you if people really want to get you and stay on you till you log.  Suicide alts, small frigates.... imagine that youtube of the gnome raid on Hogger.  Same thing, fewer numbers, less fun, and you're Hogger.
Ah. Our guild used to do level 1 raids on Hogger. Also, we did Hogger right after the first time we downed Rags. Then we assaulted the crossroads and got our asses handed to us thoroughly. (Out of a raid of 40, about 5 of us had ever PvPed. We had to get three of the players half drunk before they'd do it. Big PvP mental blocks for some people).

Frankly, I find that weird-ass "What can we think up" stuff the funnest. 10-mage WSG runs, Gnome hogger runs, footraces -- it's fun to see what you can set up.
Chenghiz
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Reply #202 on: February 17, 2007, 11:44:38 AM

We tried to do a naked footrace around Ironforge once. Entry was 1g, first person around got the pot. Unfortunately the Alliance didn't think it was very funny.
Raging Turtle
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Reply #203 on: February 17, 2007, 01:53:17 PM

I'm done.  Not so much because of all the stupid drama (but that's a part of it), but because I haven't really felt compelled in log in and DO anything for a month. 

Another month till my three-month sub runs out for both accounts.  I guess I can look forward to flying hulks and command ships if I ever come back. 
Margalis
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Reply #204 on: February 18, 2007, 11:48:41 PM

Simple solution: allow devs to play and have whatever positions they want, just force them to be indentified as devs.

Edit: Why do I keep seeing people say that the main bad guy here might be unfireable? Nobody at a company is unfireable.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2007, 12:00:31 AM by Margalis »

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Ironwood
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Reply #205 on: February 19, 2007, 01:11:44 AM

I think that redefines 'Allow Them To Play'.

Were I a Dev and was forced to abandon my anonymity, I'd not play.

That being said, I am gobsmacked that someone can 'play' their job in their out of hours time.  My personal time is too valuable to be cluttered up with work shite, even if it's a game...

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
Merusk
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Reply #206 on: February 19, 2007, 04:22:37 AM

Edit: Why do I keep seeing people say that the main bad guy here might be unfireable? Nobody at a company is unfireable.

If I understand things right, the offending dev is one of the original 3-5 guys who started CCP.  So not only does he own part of the company, he's good friends with the folks who'd have to fire him.  You're right, not technically unfireable, but the scenario that it would require for him to be fired is so unlikely it's not going to happen.

 Not to mention the tinfoil hat part that probably 'knows things'  that would come to light should he be booted.  i.e. other instances of more aggregious cheating, string-pulling, etc. 

I had my own tinfoil hat theory the other day, too.  That this cheating was intentional and intentionally copped to/ leaked to get more folks angry against BoB.  They are too close to  'winning' the game, a death-knell for a PvP game.  Something needed to stir-up the hornets nest, and voila, it did. 

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Ironwood
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Reply #207 on: February 19, 2007, 04:25:49 AM

Nah.

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
Merusk
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Reply #208 on: February 19, 2007, 04:27:18 AM

Nah.

Of course not, thus why I labeled it tinfoil hat to start with.

 It came from that small portion of me that still believes in the basic good of humanity.  I tried to kill it but it's so small I just can't hit it.

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
Morat20
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Reply #209 on: February 19, 2007, 10:18:17 AM

Simple solution: allow devs to play and have whatever positions they want, just force them to be indentified as devs.

Edit: Why do I keep seeing people say that the main bad guy here might be unfireable? Nobody at a company is unfireable.
Some of the oldest Devs are part-owners of the company. And not in that "I own 1000 shares of stock which amounts to .0000001% of all shares way". Like "I own 10% or more of the company" way.

Fireing them would be difficult, and they'd still own a fucking chunk of the company -- which isn't even a public company, as far as I know, so that's probably even more of a complication. (Lord knows how Iceland handles companies...).
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