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f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  The Gaming Graveyard  |  MMOG Discussion  |  Eve Online  |  Topic: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9! 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
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Author Topic: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!  (Read 441144 times)
Raging Turtle
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Reply #105 on: February 08, 2007, 10:39:37 AM

I don't think most people expect the devs to stop playing their own game.  This is mainly about the actions of just one of the developers, but it's more than just a little odd that so many of the top devs are in BoB... 

     BoB ALWAYS wins the pvp tournies, which have enormous prizes offered by the devs: motherships, other cap ships, etc.  Nobody doubts BoB's skill in pvp, but it's *almost* like handing yourself the prize. (Bob spying to get the fitting of the other teams annoys me as well, but that's slightly different).     
     BoB (and certain other top alliances like LV) tend to get FAR quicker responses to petitions, for vastly important/expensive things like lost cap ships, than other players/corps/alliances.
     There's a great deal of account sharing in the top alliances, which is very much against the EULA.  The devs would have had to be ignoring this and a lot of other things, some of which are much shadier than that.
     It also seems that BoB characters get way more leeway in the forums.

     One of the big issues is how a dev simply gave BoB about 10 or so T2 bpo's, which the dev had acquired on one of his characters.  Since it's the same Dev that wrote the code for the T2 Lottery (which controls all the t2 bpos), there are lots of allegations that he just spawned them for himself, or somehow got them through nefarious means.  But saying he didn't, it seems kind of odd that one character would get TEN.  You'd either have to be insanely lucky or extremely rich, and if he bought them, then that raises questions of whether he used his insider knowledge to raise that kind of money, etc etc.  The POTENTIAL for abuse is what's bothering most people, I think.

Do I think the vast majority of Devs play this game entirely on the up and up, and would never consider giving using their position for an unfair advantage?  Of course.
Do I think it's possible that one or a handful of devs abused their positions or ignored the rules for their own benefit, and if so, need to be FIRED and not just have their characters removed?  You bet.
Has CCP botched their response so far?  Hell yes.
Furiously
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Reply #106 on: February 08, 2007, 11:04:21 AM

I have to say, it is MIGHTY suspicious that the person who programed the lottery, miraculously has won it 10 times...

Raging Turtle
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Reply #107 on: February 08, 2007, 11:07:30 AM

I would guess that it's more likely he bought them, perhaps before the public knew how valuable they were going to be, but who knows?
ajax34i
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Reply #108 on: February 08, 2007, 01:17:40 PM

Do I think it's possible that one or a handful of devs abused their positions or ignored the rules for their own benefit, and if so, need to be FIRED and not just have their characters removed?  You bet.

It's easy to ask for people to be fired.  Can they fire Oveur?  T20?  some of the other core devs?  They can't.

Hence the response.
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Reply #109 on: February 08, 2007, 01:30:10 PM

Yeah, that's pretty much my take on it.  Can't fire the owners.  I'm not really sure if it's a gigantic deal, but it certainly looks bad.

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tmp
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Reply #110 on: February 08, 2007, 05:45:38 PM

I have to say, it is MIGHTY suspicious that the person who programed the lottery, miraculously has won it 10 times...
Except he didn't program it. It's the typical forum drama situation where suspicion "He couldn't have gotten these BPOs legally, he must've cheated, in order to cheat he must've been the person who had access to the code, so he must be the one who coded it" ... becomes facts few pages down the road.

Also, the idea that BPOs he owned all came from lottery is just as much pure guesswork, and not confirmed by any hard data. The BPOs are often sold by winners on EVE trade forum, anyone with ISK can collect fair number of them. Especially when BPOs in question were mostly shit quality tech.2 ammo prints, and as such selling for 1-2 bil a piece tops. And it's easy to make ISK in places like Fountain and Delve, where one can cycle between multiple 3 x 1.8 mil rat spawns per system and named officer spawns, or run the complexes and such for loot drops that sell for hundreds of millions a piece

There's corporations in game like Jericho Fraction or individuals like Khatred or Dark Shikari that came into ownership of much larger number and much better BPOs. It is possible for any player who actually works on it rather than spend time whining on forum about being at unfair disadvantage.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2007, 05:49:17 PM by tmp »
Sparky
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Reply #111 on: February 08, 2007, 07:40:07 PM

I don't think most people expect the devs to stop playing their own game.  This is mainly about the actions of just one of the developers, but it's more than just a little odd that so many of the top devs are in BoB

Quite, I can readily accept the developers must play their own game, but why do the top devs seem clustered in the poopsocking ubercorps?  If they wanted to get a good idea where most their players are at they should be anonymous empire mission runners or some shit.  If that play style is too boring for their tastes then the problem and solution should be obvious.

Now before you say "BoB were under the spotlight that's why a bunch of devs were outed there"

Quote from: Our hacker friend
Btw so much for all alliances having devs/gm.

Doing the same IP lookup on ASCN board we found only one dev and he had joined long time ago and left shortly after.

Doing the same IP lookup on Goonfleet... I don't see anyone except GM Eldini who was forced to leave the forums... I haven't checked IP from ISD, etc... though.

GM Eldini registered using that username during the fanfest to say hello to a bunch of goons he'd met.  Shortly after he asked to be banned after apparently getting in trouble at work over having an account, I find that delightfully ironic.
tmp
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Reply #112 on: February 08, 2007, 08:11:40 PM

Now before you say "BoB were under the spotlight that's why a bunch of devs were outed there"

Quote from: Our hacker friend
Btw so much for all alliances having devs/gm.

Doing the same IP lookup on ASCN board we found only one dev and he had joined long time ago and left shortly after.

Doing the same IP lookup on Goonfleet... I don't see anyone except GM Eldini who was forced to leave the forums... I haven't checked IP from ISD, etc... though.
If he's matching IPs used to connect to public forum to determine who's a dev, there's high possibility he will miss a lot of them. A one or two devs who were silly enough to connect to BoB board from work and provided the match that allowed to out them doesn't mean all 750 employees of CCP are.
Sparky
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Reply #113 on: February 08, 2007, 08:26:25 PM

If he's matching IPs used to connect to public forum to determine who's a dev, there's high possibility he will miss a lot of them. A one or two devs who were silly enough to connect to BoB board from work and provided the match that allowed to out them doesn't mean all 750 employees of CCP are.

So you're saying BoB got all the dumb ones? :)

t20 registered on the BoB boards using his @ccpgames.com email address.  That's not dumb, that's arrogance.
tmp
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Reply #114 on: February 08, 2007, 08:38:01 PM

So you're saying BoB got all the dumb ones? :)

t20 registered on the BoB boards using his @ccpgames.com email address.  That's not dumb, that's arrogance.
Well t20 registered with CCP email and then used either work IP or one that tracked back to registered information he's CCP employee to read/post on forums with his game characters so yeah, that's hardly brightest move he could do. But it doesn't mean all of them are like that, so if the hacker guy didn't match any IPs then it doesn't really rule out people who are CCP employees but do have brains to connect through proxy etc.
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Reply #115 on: February 09, 2007, 01:56:48 AM

I would think that maybe they'd want to make their own CCP corp.

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Simond
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Reply #116 on: February 09, 2007, 02:07:08 AM

I would think that maybe they'd want to make their own CCP corp.
It's called 'The Kru' or something.
Allegedly.

Or it could be (as they claim) purely coincidental that a corp with large numbers of old-school Icelandic players merged with Reikoku a fair old while back (e.g. before the T2 lottery was introduced), and suddenly decided to split back off into an independant entity just as people started asking why RKK had CCP devs in it.  rolleyes
« Last Edit: February 09, 2007, 02:10:50 AM by Simond »

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tmp
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Reply #117 on: February 09, 2007, 09:47:02 AM

It's called 'The Kru' or something.
Allegedly.

Or it could be (as they claim) purely coincidental that a corp with large numbers of old-school Icelandic players merged with Reikoku a fair old while back (e.g. before the T2 lottery was introduced), and suddenly decided to split back off into an independant entity just as people started asking why RKK had CCP devs in it.  rolleyes
If I read relevant threads on official forum correct, Kru players made appearance on EVE-TV during the latest alliance tournament, and are 15-16 year olds.

And their employment history shows they joined Reikoku in November 2006. Which is 3 months ago rather than long while back, and way after introduction of tech.2 lottery and long after the events reported by hacker took place.

This is seriously nothing but witch hunt at this point, operating on hearsay, conjectures and completely devoid of perspective and ability to look past the vaguest sign of "suspicious coincidences"

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« Last Edit: February 09, 2007, 09:52:34 AM by tmp »
Simond
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Reply #118 on: February 09, 2007, 12:42:09 PM


"You're really a good person, aren't you? So, there's no path for you to take here. Go home. This isn't a place for someone like you."
Morat20
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Reply #119 on: February 09, 2007, 12:49:56 PM

I'm not surprised they got yanked and raffled back. Like I said before -- if he poofed them into existance, rigged the lottery, exploited a bug -- it would be caught by simple auditing or simple math. My mistake was thinking they would have stated "We're still investigating the T2 BPOs" -- their statement didn't mention T2 BPOs, so I assumed they had already found them legit -- else they would have said something in that post.

And dude -- crappy BPOs to cheat for, you know? (Well, not all of them -- but several of them. Ammo BPO's really aren't that expensive, at least for a 0.0 corp)

I find Hellmar's statement to be good (an excerpt):
Quote
When the recent allegations came to light, our Internal Affairs department immediately went to work, reexamining logs for all the developers involved in great detail over the course of several days. They have concluded that none of the other developers abused their positions to gain any advantage for themselves or others. In accordance with our rules however, those characters must be removed from the game. Developers have had, and continue to have, characters in many alliances in the game, and it is wrong to assume that the presence of several characters in any one particular alliance is either uncommon, or automatically indicative of cheating.
[...]
As we look to the future, we will endeavor to improve our handling of these matters by acting in a manner that is both swift and consistent with company policy. It is regrettable that such instances reveal flaws in our governance, but by the same token, addressing them decisively is what makes our company stronger. We now have resources dedicated to performing audits of dev activity on Tranquility with much more frequency than before. This, combined with additional layers of security, and the non-negotiable penalty of employment termination upon conviction of such acts, represents the full extent that we will go to deter dev misconduct.

The developers of this company will always play the games that they build here. Without being fully immersed in the player experience, perspective, and community, it is impossible to build, maintain, and expand online worlds with any degree of competency. And while that does expose us to some degree of risk, the rewards are incalculably higher. EVE has grown stronger every year since its inception; these bumps in the road are an inevitable part of the journey we must endure as a growing company; and we would not be here today if we opted to isolate ourselves from the player experience of EVE Online.

Question -- is t20 a fireable Dev? Or part-owner?
« Last Edit: February 09, 2007, 12:51:38 PM by Morat20 »
Fordel
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Reply #120 on: February 09, 2007, 01:05:52 PM

I'm not the most knowledgable about T2 items, but I'm willing to bet the Sabre BPO is a licence to print money.

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Yoru
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Reply #121 on: February 09, 2007, 01:06:15 PM

I'm not the most knowledgable about T2 items, but I'm willing to bet the Sabre BPO is a licence to print money.

The Sabre BPO is indeed top-tier.
Miasma
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Reply #122 on: February 09, 2007, 01:13:00 PM

That t20 post was funny, I don't even play EvE but knew it was swimming in shit.  "Of the the allegations against me only the one that can actually be proven is true, thankfully the other stuff can't be logged and audited".
Fordel
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Reply #123 on: February 09, 2007, 01:17:36 PM

So they took out the BPO's, but what about all the cash generated by the BPO's? How about all the people who died as a result of the stuff made by the BPO's? Or even the cash to buy other stuff as a result of the BPO's?

It's all just one giant pile of shit now.


PS. I shouldn't be using the apostrophe after BPO, should I?

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Morat20
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Reply #124 on: February 09, 2007, 01:25:16 PM

I'm not the most knowledgable about T2 items, but I'm willing to bet the Sabre BPO is a licence to print money.
That's why I went back and modified it. Didn't see the Sabre the first time through -- just the ammo BPOs.

Miasma:

Yeah. That's why I was wondering if t20 was fireable. I do like that CCP even put together an in-house audit team in the first place, and seems to have reacted to this by strengthening it and increasing random audits. Then again, Hellmar would probably be best situated to understand how that kind of crap is going to be a real problem.

I really, really, REALLY would have been happier if yesterday's post had included "The T2 BPO allegations are still be looking into" -- there's a lot of eve mouthbreathers thinking that CCP only fessed up because of the last 24 hours of "BUT YOU DIDN'T MENTION THE T2 BPOs!". I rather doubt that's the case.

Fordel: I don't know if that's even possible. It's like with gold dupes -- sometimes, you just have to limit the damage as best you can or else you fuck it up worse. This is especially the case in complex virutal economies. I'm not sure if you ever played SWG, but they once tried to handle a gold dupe by banning everyone involved -- anyone who duped it, anyone who took the duped gold. Except the gold dupers were running around handing it out to beggars, or buying lots of shit off vendors. A lot of top-end merchans and armorsmiths got banned because people were using duped gold (second, third, or forth hand) to buy shit off of vendors.

To be fair, you'd have to seperate out who was acting in good faith and who wasn't -- who knew it was a rigged BPO and who didn't. You don't want to penalize, say, someone who made T2 ammo off a BPC never knowing it was a dev fuckup. He wasted time, material, and money -- should he have it yanked from him even though he did nothing wrong?
Fordel
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Reply #125 on: February 09, 2007, 01:53:03 PM

Nah, don't think they should go around banning everyone attached, just commenting on how messed up it all is now.



EVE was already the game that did everything to reward the guy who had been around the longest, where all the big players are essentially the Old Boys club. Now it is confirmed that the people who already have all the advantages and power, are also getting Dev advantages and power?


Why would I want to play this game? Why would I believe anything CCP says now?  I'm sure some people are thinking "It was just this one instance!", but how do we know? Can we really ever know? Shit, it took a hacker to even acknowledge the possibility at first. I really wonder how much of EVE's player driven world is really just some devs own personal SciFi fantasy manifest. I have no illusion that other MMO's are somehow clean of this nonesense, but EVE is the only one where it would really matter. Some WoW GM spawns himself a Epic 2h, what do I care? Some EVE Dev actively influences arguably the most powerfull alliance in game with out of game means, the alliance that has already wiped out half a dozen other alliances, negatively impacting literal thousands of players game experience? That is just shit.

The game is just too 'hardcore' to have this kind of doubt for me... so much for that player driven experience, eh? ;)




and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Raging Turtle
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Reply #126 on: February 09, 2007, 02:08:07 PM

Bizarre timing, with BoB now at war with the two other serious 0.0 powers and numerous smaller ones. 
Trippy
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Reply #127 on: February 09, 2007, 02:08:43 PM

Wait, the CEO says their Internal Affairs department found nothing wrong and yet the dev that did cheat came forward and admitted it. What does that say about CCP's IA department?
ajax34i
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Reply #128 on: February 09, 2007, 02:11:00 PM

I really wonder how much of EVE's player driven world is really just some devs own personal SciFi fantasy manifest.

EVE is the game they (the devs) wanted to play; from their point of view, they coded THE game they all wanted.  I think they said this in a blog or IRC chat interview in 2004 or 2003, or it might just be my misconception about what they said.  But every now and then I got the vibe that they indeed liked to play EVE, and not "play" to find the bugs (which is what we expect of devs), but really play to win (win at PVP, beat the alliances, etc.).  They didn't just make it for us, they made it for themselves too.

Shrug.
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Reply #129 on: February 09, 2007, 02:22:48 PM

Why would I want to play this game?

According to you, yourself, a page ago, you haven't for half a year.

You sure seem to care a whole lot though. Or at least you're quite loud about it.
Fordel
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Reply #130 on: February 09, 2007, 02:30:06 PM

EVE is that game that I wanted to like, but just never did. Like others have said before, it's often more fun to read and talk about EVE then to actually play it :)

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Morat20
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Reply #131 on: February 09, 2007, 02:48:53 PM

Wait, the CEO says their Internal Affairs department found nothing wrong and yet the dev that did cheat came forward and admitted it. What does that say about CCP's IA department?

That was my first thought. I read it more closely, and understood:
Quote
When the recent allegations came to light, our Internal Affairs department immediately went to work, reexamining logs for all the developers involved in great detail over the course of several days. They have concluded that none of the other developers abused their positions to gain any advantage for themselves or others. In accordance with our rules however, those characters must be removed from the game. Developers have had, and continue to have, characters in many alliances in the game, and it is wrong to assume that the presence of several characters in any one particular alliance is either uncommon, or automatically indicative of cheating.
Judging by the forum post on it, the blogs were meant to be read together. t20 admits he did it. Hellmar discusses the steps CCP has taken in the past to combat this, what they've changed, and the results of an exhaustive audit of Dev accounts.

It'd have been clearer if he'd said something like "Aside from t20, none of the other developers...."
« Last Edit: February 09, 2007, 02:51:28 PM by Morat20 »
Sparky
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Reply #132 on: February 09, 2007, 03:25:57 PM

Haha holy shit, I was wrong after all, he is just an enormous dumbass.  Shame it had to be dragged kicking and screaming out of CCP though, and they're still glossing over many of the allegations.
Morat20
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Reply #133 on: February 09, 2007, 03:36:22 PM

Haha holy shit, I was wrong after all, he is just an enormous dumbass.  Shame it had to be dragged kicking and screaming out of CCP though, and they're still glossing over many of the allegations.
Most of them aren't proveable -- and some of them are idiotic. "OMG, FUCKING DEVS PLAY IN CORPS!". Stupid. "OMG, DEVS GAME BOB WAR INFO" -- unproveable, unless BoB players are willing to step forward an offer concrete examples that couldn't be gained by covort ops ships or something. "OMG, GAVE INSIDE INFORMATION ALLOWING PROFIT OFF UPCOMING CHANGES" -- pretty hard to prove, as Devs speak a lot about upcoming changes, they're on the test server for a long time, and vets will have a pretty good idea of where to speculate with mineral prices and the like.

T2 BPOs, however, have an auditable trail through the DB that can be traced at any point. And I suspect the GM tools are having their logging increased substantially.
Yoru
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Reply #134 on: February 09, 2007, 03:45:12 PM

Can we dial the histrionics down past 11? Feeling frustrated, angry, hurt, betrayed - that's fine. But we're not on Eve-O or the Vault here.
Margalis
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Reply #135 on: February 09, 2007, 04:01:34 PM

From an outside perspective this looks awfully fucked up. It isn't the first time this has happened either. There is clearly a company culture that makes it permissable to do this sort of thing, and the covering-up and ignoring makes it that much worse.

In cases like these, where abuse has already taken place, just the opportunity for or appearance of abuse is bad.

Can't the CCP devs better predict the value of things? Know a little bit more about the combat? Know about upcoming game changes in advance? It is the equivalent of insider trading.

I have no problem with CCP guys playing their own game but to have major leadership positions is screwy. IMO all devs should be identifiable as devs from the get-go in-game.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
Trippy
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Reply #136 on: February 09, 2007, 05:34:50 PM

Wait, the CEO says their Internal Affairs department found nothing wrong and yet the dev that did cheat came forward and admitted it. What does that say about CCP's IA department?
That was my first thought. I read it more closely, and understood:
Quote
When the recent allegations came to light, our Internal Affairs department immediately went to work, reexamining logs for all the developers involved in great detail over the course of several days. They have concluded that none of the other developers abused their positions to gain any advantage for themselves or others. In accordance with our rules however, those characters must be removed from the game. Developers have had, and continue to have, characters in many alliances in the game, and it is wrong to assume that the presence of several characters in any one particular alliance is either uncommon, or automatically indicative of cheating.
Judging by the forum post on it, the blogs were meant to be read together. t20 admits he did it. Hellmar discusses the steps CCP has taken in the past to combat this, what they've changed, and the results of an exhaustive audit of Dev accounts.

It'd have been clearer if he'd said something like "Aside from t20, none of the other developers...."
I saw that too but that's not how I read it. He spent the first part talking about some incidents in the past so I read the "other" as "current" developers. And yes he could have made it explicitly clear by mentioning t20's involvement with the BPOs this time around.
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Reply #137 on: February 10, 2007, 12:58:36 AM

Devs should play their own game, not cheat at their own game.

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Trouble
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Reply #138 on: February 10, 2007, 10:29:06 AM

According to the devblog the allegations about the BPOs are true.

http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=424

Quote
As you might have read and heard, there were recently some allegations posted regarding developer misconduct that basically come down to:

    * Developers helping (an) alliance(s) gain information they otherwise would not have.
    * Developers having an unfair advantage of game mechanics.
    * Developers helping themselves acquire goods in-game by means of in-house tools, otherwise not available to regular players.

All allegations mentioned above are untrue, except one. Sadly enough, the allegation regarding unlawfully obtained blueprints are, in my case, true. I’m here, laying out the facts of what happened in June 2006 so this whole issue -- which jeopardized my colleagues, my company and our community -- can be put behind us, I hope for the better.

The blueprints in question will be returned to CCP and reintroduced through a new raffle in the future. Specifically, these are:

    * Flameburst Precision Light Missile Blueprint
    * Phalanx Rage Rocket Blueprint
    * Havoc Fury Heavy Missile Blueprint
    * Bloodclaw Fury Light Missile Blueprint
    * Spike L Blueprint
    * Sabre Blueprint

Regrettably, my actions inevitably led to a shadow of suspicion being cast on a number of my co-workers, as well as Reikoku and Band of Brothers. I wish to make it clear that I acted alone and my co-workers and corp/alliance mates have been cleared of any alleged wrongdoing.

As much as this is a confession it is also a request for your forgiveness for events of which I’m truly sorry.
Der Helm
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Reply #139 on: February 10, 2007, 10:56:56 AM


"I've been done enough around here..."- Signe
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