War - Press Event Week

[stray]

MMOG PvP has to learn how to walk before it can run.

It's been over 10 years now, and we're still standing around with our dicks in our hands. The time for learning was yesterday.

The average development cycle is what? 5 years or more for a MMO? Budget for a major is now around 50 mil or so?  There haven't even been that many major release MMOs.

This industry is still very much in its beginning stages, especially for design concepts.

Just seems like with other games, core ideas are pretty much fleshed out early on. Sometimes right off the bat (i.e. some games just get "it" right the first time, and there isn't much left to improve upon. Street Fighter, THPS, RotTK, or the Sims for example).

Take deathmatching in FPS's. The concept has been enhanced over the years, of course, but the basic idea has remained the same. Some guy who played Rise of the Triad lan games back in the mid 90's would be right at home in F.E.A.R.

MMO PvP - Fubar'ed from the beginning, and still fubar'ed now. Nobody knows how to really go about it. No one can even agree on what the core concept or what purpose it should have, let alone the minor implementation issues.

Maybe it just can't be done right. Or maybe the problem could be that mmo's try to please too many different people at once? I don't know.. I don't really have the patience for it anymore though.

[EDIT] The word I'm looking for is "canon". Unlike every other type of game/gameplay out there (even some of those included in MMO's), nothing about MMO PvP has been canonized. Still. We're all still clueless, and we're all still arguing the same things that were argued years ago.

[eldaec]

I'm not sure MMOG pvp has to be a single thing.

Planetside style, EVE style, GW style, DAoC style have all been done in a decent and fun way.



Naturally some have been done in a more accessible way, and some have had separate problems with developing a decent matchmaking structure.

What increases the whinefest to fever pitch, is that these things come with an enormous barrier to entry, you have to develop a character first. It's developing that character that gives people a sense of entitlement and triggers all the whining.

Also, MMOGs get built with insanely high expectations of how long a game should 'last'. Most gamers got bored of CS within a much shorter period than they give up on a MMOG.

People have crazy expectations of MMOGs.

[HaemishM]

MMOG PvP has to learn how to walk before it can run.

It's been over 10 years now, and we're still standing around with our dicks in our hands. The time for learning was yesterday.

Look at SWG: NGE. The MMOG devs are still learning HOW TO LEARN.

[Hoax]

MMOG PvP has to learn how to walk before it can run.

It's been over 10 years now, and we're still standing around with our dicks in our hands. The time for learning was yesterday.

Look at SWG: NGE. The MMOG devs are still learning HOW TO LEARN.

Oh my fucking god I laughed so hard...

Normally I wouldn't post this type of dumb comment but really it was like a full throated laugh, not the kind of laugh you usually direct at your computer screen while sitting alone.

Also I dont see how turning MMO combat into FPS/RTS high end competition with levels/items/characters should constitute as walking and creating virtual world open pvp should be considered a much loftier goal.  EvE does the latter correctly (or pretty fucking close) while GW does the whole BG thing quite well.  The only problem is to do it well, GW had to give up MMO status.  Which leads me to continue to think that MMO's are inherently better suited to open world pvp aka players as content then they are to instanced arena pvp with basically an in-game OGL style league system.  I can't help but feel that there is more synergy in the various gameplay aspects if you go the EvE route.

P.S.  No DAOC is not a third route, please dont bother saying that.  DAOC's own people basically describe the DAOC/PS model as "boring "capture the windmill" gags that repeat endlessly and serve no real purpose".

edit:  found quote, fixt early part.

[Nebu]

P.S.  No DAOC is not a third route, please dont bother saying that.  DAOC's own people basically describe the DAOC/PS model as "boring "capture the windmill" gags that repeat endlessly and serve no real purpose".

DAoC has solid mechanics for an attempt at balanced MMOG pvp and I think it's a viable avenue.  I do agree that the goals associate with DAoC pvp are less meaningful than they could be.  I like DAoC pvp and find it to be the most satisfying of the MMOG PvP styles available.  Could it be improved?  Hell yes.

If WAR turns out to be little more than DAoC with a slicker interface and a better engine, I'd buy it.  I do hope for more... a lot more. 

[Arthur_Parker]

French interview with Paul Barnett

JoL : Will there be macros ?
PB : Yes there will be.

JoL : Will they be complex ? Or rather simple?Seront-elles complexes ?
PB : Neither too complex not too simplisitic, they will be middling evolutive.

JoL : Do you thin the release date (Q4 2007) will be fulfiled ?
PB : It's the plan. Right now, it is still actual.


JoL : What will turn in the RvR so appealing ? What reward can we expect ?
PB : Skills, stuffs, titles, access to new zones... Really a lot of things.

JoL : How are you going to include the future races which will come with extensions?
PB : The new races will join a faction. Order or Destruction. Only the Skavens will stay on their own ! We will create a new battlefront for them, because they fight everybody, nonetheless we don't know if the Skavens will come with the first expansion.


JoL : Will you really add all the races ? Do you know the first ones which will be added ?
PB : Practically all races yes, we think a lot of Wood Elves and Bretonnia. With Tomb Kings, Vampire Counts... Only Lustria don't interest us that much.

JoL : How do you expect to motivate the players to defend their realm and not their ally's ?
PB : It works with influence. Your king will grant you several rewards for having defend your realm whileyour influence toward him will grow. Then you shall work your influence with your allies'kings. They will also grant you rewards. Where it becomes big, it's that after having obtained a particular influence level towards your allies, your own king becomes active again and grants you for your global war effort ! You will thus accomplish a complete loop in 4 steps.


JoL : Can we attack minor cities ? Even out of the RvR zones ?
PB : All big cities will be in RvR zone. You could attack only what stands in RvR zone, if a village stand there, you can attack it.

JoL : Will Crowd Control be primordial as in DAOC ?
PB : Crowd Control will be very important but also very different. We use collisions and we want to use them at the maximum. Our goal is to introduce a notion of character mastery much more important than in the other mmo and we spend a lot more time to polish this system. Crowd controls spells and capacities will be limited on purpose. They will be in, but they won't have the same preponderance than in DAOC.


JoL : At which frequency can a capital be taken ?
PB : We don't know yet, we'll see with the beta. In my opinion, approximately once every 5 days. Let's say once per week.

JoL : What will make the catpure of capital so appealing ? Except the fun aspect.
PB : Take a capital is the best way to get stuff from your king.

JoL : Tell me a bit about the craft system.
PB : I cannot. It is Mark Jacobs who looks after the craft and he knows exactly what he wants to do with it. We are finalizing the concept.

JoL : We were able to see a wheel on a screenshot, no doubt it turns...
PB : Yes ...

JoL : Will the crafted items be as powerful as items obtained by quests or powerful monsters ?
PB : I can't talk about this.

JoL : Tell me a bit about the economy system.
PB : I can't.

JoL : Will the stuff be preponderant in the efficiency of the character ?
PB : I still can't.

JoL : Are you going to use a communication system such as mailing boxes ?
PB : I cannot ... we will use a system, but it will most probably not be mailing boxes.

JoL : Mutant pigeons ?
PB : Maybe ! No mailing boxes, it is too classic.

JoL : You talked about a RvR dungeon. How could we accede to it ?
PB : They will run a bit like DAOC, but in better. Mark is excellent in this domain.

JoL : How many dungeons could we explore at the release ?
PB : I don't know exactly.

JoL : We heard about two.
PB : Two, three ... I still don't know.

JoL : Could we fight big monsters ? Realms creatures ?
PB : Yes, Daemon Lords.

JoL : You have stated : no stealth, but Sanya talked about a style of stealthness.
PB : No stealth class. We'll have positional fight skills but no stealth.

JoL : We have heard that climbing would be possible.
PB : Everything depends on the technical department. If they can do it, I would include it to my design. But il looks complicated.

JoL : Will there be weapon specialisations ?
PB : Your weapons are determined by your career. A hammerer will use only hammers, a Witchhunter a rapier...

JoL : I have seen yesterday that some weapons were dedicated to a race, and others to a skill system such as "shield specialization".
PB : Yes everything runs through a skill system but thoses skills are only available to the carrers intended to use them. You can't gain a skill which is not intended for your career.

JoL : Will mounted fight be possible ?
PB : It is again a question for the technical department. I don't think so.

JoL : Please, tell me about the dwarfs and a possible mount.
PB : If mounts are in game, dwarves won't ride anything, no horse, no mule, no donkey, nothing of this. In the background, dark elves ride cold ones, empirans ride horses or gryphons but not the dwarves. However they will have a quick conveyance as the others, probably gyrocopters or something like that.

JoL : I have seen ab high elf yesterday, just before entering Ekrund Doors, and he has the eyes entirely black.
PB : Yes, we don"t know yet how to do. According to Games workshop, in 2002 their eyes were entirely black and in 2006 their eyes are quite human like. We don't know wichi solution we will choose. Maybe will we keep the two.

Surprising amount of new information, nice to see an interviewer just cut right through the crap for once and ask direct questions on game mechanics.

[Riggswolfe]

I wonder if weapon selection will be as limited as that review makes it sound. Hmm, something to ponder. And a witchhunter using a rapier? Bah. That's something a frumpy Bretonian noble would use. Witchhunters are more about real swords IMO.

JoL : Are you going to use a communication system such as mailing boxes ?
PB : I cannot ... we will use a system, but it will most probably not be mailing boxes.

JoL : Mutant pigeons ?
PB : Maybe ! No mailing boxes, it is too classic.

This exchange worries me. Too classic? It works, shouldn't that be more important than "it's used already, think of something new and unique!!"

[Arthur_Parker]

If they have a mail system then just having mailboxes is lazy when they could do something weird for each race.  Really not keen on the weapon restictions myself.  I liked the wheel comment though, looks like crazy siege engines are in for the city attacks.

[eldaec]

I have serious doubts that Skaven will really turn out to be a 3rd realm.

'because they fight everybody' seems like weak reasoning, in warhammer everyone fights everybody - that's the whole point, but the existing realms certainly aren't set up that way.


I hope Skaven deliver a third realm, just like I also hope Orcs don't end up in the same realm as chaos - but that won't happen either.

Paul Barnett has a habit of getting carried away and suggesting stuff that fits the lore better, but doesn't necessarily turn out to mean what a MMOG fan site might parse it to mean.

[tazelbain]

Also I dont see how turning MMO combat into FPS/RTS high end competition with levels/items/characters should constitute as walking and creating virtual world open pvp should be considered a much loftier goal.  EvE does the latter correctly (or pretty fucking close) while GW does the whole BG thing quite well.  The only problem is to do it well, GW had to give up MMO status.  Which leads me to continue to think that MMO's are inherently better suited to open world pvp aka players as content then they are to instanced arena pvp with basically an in-game OGL style league system.  I can't help but feel that there is more synergy in the various gameplay aspects if you go the EvE route.

P.S.  No DAOC is not a third route, please dont bother saying that.  DAOC's own people basically describe the DAOC/PS model as "boring "capture the windmill" gags that repeat endlessly and serve no real purpose".

edit:  found quote, fixt early part.

Because right now fighting dumb AI punching-bags is dominate mode of play.  Anything that breaks out of the mindless quest/kill/loot to fight other peoples is a win for all pvp.  For many people just showing them that you can fighting others *and* have fun at the same time would is step forward.  Each time a new MMOG with a central PvP stands up and walks(instead of shitting the bed and lying in its filth like UO/SB/EQ), it gives us a better understanding about what it takes get more into people into PvP.  GW, EvE, WoW, DAoC.  Each gives insight into the PvpP puzzle.  WAR and AoC will hopeful give us more.  Eventually we'll get an idea what to takes to give the players the freedom create their own destiny without having them reduce the game to slag.

Let's say Blizzad wants to a "Shadowbane Done Right" but they aren't sure about the market. Doesn't WAR being a huge success make it more likely SBDR gets green-lighted?

Also I disagree that the EvE's end-game is lofty in anyway (nothing noble about gang warfare).  Or that GW isn't MMOG(it isn't not a VW).

[Arthur_Parker]

I have serious doubts that Skaven will really turn out to be a 3rd realm.

Mark Jacobs jumped in to post for the first time in the other thread immediately after Daeven's comments about Skaven, zone control changing hands and warpstone.  Dunno, but I commented at the time that I thought it was odd.

[tazelbain]

Weird stuff about Skaven, they completely pretzeled the lore to make 2 sides.  And then they undo it.

[Hoax]

@Tazel:  You are the one who called BG pvp walking and the concept of open world pvp running.  Not me, therefore I twisted that logic and called EvE's open pvp lofty.  I agree that anything with pvp as a core type of game experience is a step in the right direction, you dont see me dogging WAR for using a BG-system of pvp like some others have.  But that doesn't mean I'm not going to say that I still think that option does not fit as well in the medium as a more EvE/SB-esque open system.

As for GW, come on, if GW is a MMO then Gunbound and a host of games like it are MMO's.  If you think that is accurate then invent a new term that stands for MMOG's that have an online persistent world component and pretend I've been using that term instead of that standard MMO.  I think that the aye's have if on the GW is not a MMO department around here though.

@Everyone:  Do we really want to even waste text talking about what races they may add?  Seriously we're talking what minimum 3 years from now?

Also whoever did that French interview is pretty cool, actually asking questions that people want to know the answer to is an interesting twist on the whole interview process.

[Johny Cee]

@ Hoax:

Alot of what you say about DAoC PvP only shows part of what was actually happening.

Group on group fights,  when two good well balanced groups met,  is some of the best competive play you can have.  Fights tend to go on forever,  as the sides chase and retreat or catch their breath.  I've had quite a few group on group fights go between 5 and 10 minutes,  many times with the losing side pulling their shit together and coming out on top.

The problem is that you NEED a well balanced group with good players at key positions.  Otherwise,  you're in PUG hell and do tend to get rolled by the gank crews.  See some of Nebu, Eldaec, et al's comments on the real grinding in DAoC being social.  You need to form your play bonds so that you can log on,  look up those good players to fill up your group, and go.

DAoC's best real world equivalent sport is Golf.  Long periods of "meh" interspersed with amazing fun.  Some days are just bad,  and it's frustrating.

I also tend to think the "capture meaningless windmills" quote was more directed at WoW bgs that set capture location victory conditions that have no effect on the overall realm vs. realm board and just signify win this instance.

Between relic access, DF access, and the New Frontiers porting systems,  capturing a location does have significance.  Some of the best rvr you get is when someone takes the bull by the horns and establishes a port in another realm,  then moves on to knocking out opposing realms ports and threatening the relics.

You get groups and zergs roaming the frontier trying to counter, defend, and attack each other while 8 mans ambush the slow or small zergs and stealthers hit roamers.

[tazelbain]

My point is EvE is still walking.  It still has a huge chunk of players in safe zones.  And its too small.  To get a top quality Open PvP world, we are going to need a Triple-A Developement team and that's going to require numbers that make Producers drool.

>I think that the aye's have if on the GW is not a MMO department around here though.
Its not my fault they can't see that Guild Wars is massive, multiplayer, online or a game.  I was using the term MMOG back people were still saying MMORPG.  Anyway, if GW isn't an MMO than neither is WoW.  It has jack shit for persistance either.

[Strazos]

I never understood how GW is not an MMO.

[Hoax]

Johny my point is not about the quality of the actual pvp but the mechanics of it.  The way I see it you can more or less group pvp into three types right now.

DAOC, PS > The mechanic for pvp are capturable static points that basically change hands from time to time and do provide some sort of bonus, reward or ability to trash talk but have little effect overall on the game.

WoW, GW > The primary pvp mechanic is a system that attempts or is working towards mimicking the way competition works in other online genres.  Basically like Margalis said, WoW's BG's draw a direct line back to console fighting games which passes it through fps and rts territory.  Two people/teams enter, one wins, the other looses.  Now with the new Arena season thing that I'm only just starting to try to find out about.  It sounds like WoW will try to incorporate some type of ladder/ranking system like they had with the old honor system.  Except this time around it sounds like they will be pushing more towards having a OGL/teamwarfare style ranking built into the game if I'm understanding what they are up to properly.  Basically in terms of pvp in WoW the world becomes a lobby and the pvp takes place in instances designed to let the best players prove they are the best.  Guildwars is even more direct about this since the pvp is the entire "endgame", Hall of Heroes is a perfect example of how this type of pvp is meant to work.  Capturing the hall means you need to beat teams that are winning also.  You only face good competition.  Capturing and holding the hall proves you are the best.  An artificial environment is created where charaters who gain their powers in a game world go to actually fight each other.  That is obviously in stark contrast to the last type of pvp.

SB, EvE > The mechanic for encouraging pvp is that through it players can actually control portions of the gameworld.  Really this has been talked to death, you know the deal here.

Now obviously you can say, well WoW pvp servers are just as much pvp enabled as EvE's 0.0 zones.  That is true or close to true.  But your being a jackass and nitpicking when you know that world pvp in WoW is dead and buried.

@tazel:  Have you played EvE?  A huge chunk are in safe zones, ok fine whatever.  Its too small?  What does this mean?  It has 33k people playing at once.  No WoW server comes close.  It is a top quality Open PvP world, the gameplay isn't for everyone but dont' rag on EvE because it doesn't have elves and appeal to the entire LCD.

@Strazos:  Fine its a fucking MMOG so is CS, there are tons of people playing it online and its a game...  Like I said invent me a term for Massive Multiplayer Online Games With a Persistent World that Matters (at max lvl WoW doesn't qualify tbh) and I'll start using that.  I'm not going to say sandbox because that term comes with hella baggage.  GuildWars doesn't play like a MMO it plays like any fps but where some servers are PvE areas and some are PvP areas.  Please also realize I'm talking about GW at launch if they've added a bunch of shit, good for them sorry I didn't know about it.

[stray]

Even pushing the GW PvP model aside, GW is still not an mmo on PvE and general community terms. A lobby is not a world. And just because a massive number of people are using the same login server as you doesn't make it an mmo.

That isn't to say it's a bad idea necessarily though.

[Signe]

You are all MMOs to me.

[Strazos]

@Strazos:  Fine its a fucking MMOG so is CS, there are tons of people playing it online and its a game...  Like I said invent me a term for Massive Multiplayer Online Games With a Persistent World that Matters (at max lvl WoW doesn't qualify tbh) and I'll start using that.  I'm not going to say sandbox because that term comes with hella baggage.  GuildWars doesn't play like a MMO it plays like any fps but where some servers are PvE areas and some are PvP areas.  Please also realize I'm talking about GW at launch if they've added a bunch of shit, good for them sorry I didn't know about it.

If that's how you want to qualify whether a game is a MMO or not (to you), then practically all games fail to meet that standard. These are Games we are talking about. And they all play like games to me. W T F is the difference between GW and WoW, the amount of instancing? Because neither of their "worlds" matter one iota.

I mean, seriously. What, GW doesn't qualify because I don't run across other players out in the wilds? Those portions are PvE anyway, so the lack of other (non-party) players is probably a plus, because the instances allow for more customized/scripted missions.

EDIT: Hell, off the top of my head, wouldn't DDO be in the same category as GW, since all their missions are instances as well?

[eldaec]

I'm with Strazos. I never understand why people think it's the open world structure that makes something an MMO.

The nature of GW, and even Diablo, is that your 'game' continues from one instance to the next, you can interact with a massively multiple number of players over the course of your 'game', and the results of your instance can impact everyone else in other instances - even if it is just by moving your team around a leaderboard, and earning loot that you can sell to other players.

If WAR was structured like GW for all combat, but still had the mobile battlefront, surely it still has to defined as an MMO.

And what, exactly, is the conceptual difference between a lobby screen where you click on the thing you want to visit next, and a rendered world that you move your avatar around to reach whatever you want to visit next?

The difference between GW and CS, is that in CS the game ends at the end of each rubber, before you could ever hope to interact with a massive number of players. Nothing carries over.

An instance structure doesn't prevent world altering events.

My reasons for being down on the idea of instances dominating RvR have more to do with the way they enable uber-guilds to dominate the landscape using small pre-made groups that exclude newbies. And because RvR has much more scope for larger scale events and for connected events (Johny's post above describes a lot of the great stuff that went on in daoc if only you could get through the price-of-entry grind). It seems a shame to dump much of the potential of the open and connected world when games like GW can already do the instance thing just as well as WAR could.

Hell, off the top of my head, wouldn't DDO be in the same category as GW, since all their missions are instances as well?

Also CoH (who street sweeps these days?).

[eldaec]

>I think that the aye's have if on the GW is not a MMO department around here though.
Its not my fault they can't see that Guild Wars is massive, multiplayer, online or a game.  I was using the term MMOG back people were still saying MMORPG.  Anyway, if GW isn't an MMO than neither is WoW.  It has jack shit for persistance either.

Couple more fun things about nomenclature.

1) I really enjoy how we started with MMORPG for massively multiplayer online roleplaying game. Later, we all dropped RP because no fuckers role play. We started calling things MMOGs. Nowadays producers refer have dropped the G, and refer to them as MMOs. Has someone recognised that these things aren't fun?

2) Persistence. Back in the days of UO, 'Persistent world' meant the things that you did were persistent. You built a house, it persisted to exist in the game world. These days you hear a producer say persistent, and what they now mean is that 'the game world stays the same, forever!'.

Isn't language fun?




On Skaven, some guy from Mythic posted this at Warhammer Alliance.

First of all, the balance implications of that statement [that Skaven fight everyone as their own faction] make me and Sanya want to vomit violently...

Sanya has stated many times in the past that based on feedback, Skaven is definitely on top of the list as the most requested army not in the list. And she is on her hands and knees begging the powers that be to make sure they make the first expansion pack. But we aren't even close to the point where we'll start looking at which armies will make the first expansion and which alliance they'll belong to.

So it looks like Skaven will just join Destruction  . An asymmetric third realm would be incredibly cool, but it's not really the Mythic way of doing things. There are also some posters claiming the correct translation of PAul's interview is that Skaven can join order or destruction - personally I think that sounds flat out stupid.

And I find it frankly bizarre how people on that alliance forum are so dead against the concept of a third realm.

[Daeven]

You are all MMOs to me.

You are all squeaky little Skaven to me. And I am the Hammer of Sigmar. I shall now crush your skulls.

Oh. Useful feedback? Fine. They are making this a Teen Game? With the Warhammer IP? Dark Elf Bikini Goth Babes are ok, but Nergle is to 'icky'? 

[Daeven]

So it looks like Skaven will just join Destruction  . An asymmetric third realm would be incredibly cool, but it's not really the Mythic way of doing things. There are also some posters claiming the correct translation of PAul's interview is that Skaven can join order or destruction - personally I think that sounds flat out stupid.

And I find it frankly bizarre how people on that alliance forum are so dead against the concept of a third realm.

Or, you know, they could do something really radical and add Lizzies and Skaven at the same time. It's not like there's a shortage of races.

Let me know when I can play an Ogre Maneater damn your eyes!

[Strazos]

Dark Elf Bikini Goth Babes

I could go for one of those right now. 

[Johny Cee]

I've floated this idea before, but....

Add races that are asymmetric.  Give them access to both Order and Destruction starting RvR points.  Then have a treaty system controlled by Mythic.  Use the asymmetric races to balance out population.

Order has a higher poputlation then Destruction?  The Skaven/Lizardmen/whoever can only access Destructioin starting points and can only attack Order forces.  Population balanced?  Skaven can access/attack either.  Just tag Skaven players as being pvp eligible to Destruction if they come in at Order spot.

Would seem to me to add shifting alliances and help counter population balances.

Of course,  Skaven will probably just get lumped into one side or the other.

[Azazel]

It does for me but it's a bit zoomed out for my taste.

Separated at birth?

Twin 1

Twin 2

You realise that Warhammer has had Beastmen that look just like that since before the first Warcraft RTS game came out, don't you? They appropriated them from Runequest's Bree, I believe.

Trust me, anything that you look at in Warhammer that looks eerily similar to something in Warcraft was in the Warhammer IP first, and stolen from somewhere else, before that.

[Azazel]

Or, you know, they could do something really radical and add Lizzies and Skaven at the same time. It's not like there's a shortage of races.

That's exactly what I was thinking, right up until I read the part of the interview where they say thay have little interest in Lustria...

When they were talking Brets and Woodies, I thought Vampire Counts and Tomb Kings would work ok, but then 2 undead races in the same expack might be too much. Skaven is next-to-Nurgle, anyways...

[Arthur_Parker]

You realise that Warhammer has had Beastmen that look just like that since before the first Warcraft RTS game came out, don't you? They appropriated them from Runequest's Bree, I believe.

Trust me, anything that you look at in Warhammer that looks eerily similar to something in Warcraft was in the Warhammer IP first, and stolen from somewhere else, before that.

You having a laugh or what?

[Azazel]

No, I'm dead serious. Though I could understand what you're getting at if you elaborated a little more.

Or you think Warhammer is copying Warcraft in some way regarding some (or any) part of the IP?

[Arthur_Parker]

Even though the gameplay footage looked a bit like WoW, I didn't think twin 1 and twin 2 looked anything like each other, I was joking.

[Signe]

I get you, Artie! 

[Seldaren]

I liked the wheel comment though, looks like crazy siege engines are in for the city attacks.

In reference to the crafting stuff, and the wheel, I believe the French guy was referencing the paper mock up in on of Paul's vid blogs:
http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/behindTheScenes/vidPhoneDiaries/2006october.php

Look down at "Paper Prototype Crafting System". It's got a bunch of wheels and stuff. At least that's what I remembered when I saw the comment about "wheels" and "crafting".

Seldaren