War - Press Event Week

[eldaec]

The tentonne hammer links Arthur posted are espeicially worth a look. This page in particular....

http://warhammer.tentonhammer.com/index.php?module=ContentExpress&func=display&ceid=100

Contains a video discussing the aims of rvr design.

[Hoax]

I dont think they should use the tank language, reading the class descriptions while I was over on tentonhammer for Orcs and Dwarves though made me pretty damn excited about the game though tbh.

[tazelbain]

I like the choice of a Soccer Hooligan as Producer.
Scenarios are the primary way to move the battle lines for the Campaign. I can't imagine RvR purists being too happy about that, but that sounds great to me.

[Arthur_Parker]

The tentonne hammer links Arthur posted are especially worth a look. This page in particular....

http://warhammer.tentonhammer.com/index.php?module=ContentExpress&func=display&ceid=100

Contains a video discussing the aims of rvr design.

It's worth sticking through the first half of the video just to see Paul explain why the British have so many museums.

Edit to add below.

New screenshots from Warcry

Artwork

Warcry Preview

"Humans will be humans," Barnett told us as he lamented that no matter what they did, most people (including himself) would likely roll a human anyway. I asked him why and he told me that - for many - all the fantasy races simply exist for people "to practice genocide" on.

[eldaec]

Scenarios are the primary way to move the battle lines for the Campaign. I can't imagine RvR purists being too happy about that, but that sounds great to me.

Yeah, it did sound unfortunate that the core of rvr may be locked into small group vs small group, also sounding less than ideal was the idea that the primary driver of victory points in these arena group v group battles is player kills, rather than objectives.

On the other hand they do go to great lengths to point out that at least this means rvr everywhere is always contributing to 'world impacting' realm objectives, which at least brings something positive out of the whole thing.

[angry.bob]

Yeah, it did sound unfortunate that the core of rvr may be locked into small group vs small group

This kills the game outright unless there is some form of autogrouping when entering an area for people who are not already grouped, ala WoW's battlegrounds. If they stick with that design theory, they will never, ever retain more people than are currently playing DAoC. Period. There is not any possible arguement against that, and I wonder what they're even thinking setting it up to focus on groups.

WoW has proven beyond any further possible glimmer of doubt that people do not like to group more than is absolutely neccessary to achieve a specific goal, and only on occasion.

[tazelbain]

Yeah, it did sound unfortunate that the core of rvr may be locked into small group vs small group, also sounding less than ideal was the idea that the primary driver of victory points in these arena group v group battles is player kills, rather than objectives.

On the other hand they do go to great lengths to point out that at least this means rvr everywhere is always contributing to 'world impacting' realm objectives, which at least brings something positive out of the whole thing.

By locked, I guess you mean like how BGs killed overland PvP on WoW PvP servers.  I'd hope Mythic would do a better job since PvP is going to be their bread 'n' butter. Probably lots of tweaking on the server on how much each types contributes to the war. But no matter people are going to complain.

On kills vs. objectives, the 2 speakers seemed to be at odds.  But it seems to me you want teams to both be good at fighting and meeting objectives. If you can ignore either it kinda defeats the purpose.

Yeah, it did sound unfortunate that the core of rvr may be locked into small group vs small group

This kills the game outright unless there is some form of autogrouping when entering an area for people who are not already grouped, ala WoW's battlegrounds. If they stick with that design theory, they will never, ever retain more people than are currently playing DAoC. Period. There is not any possible arguement against that, and I wonder what they're even thinking setting it up to focus on groups.

WoW has proven beyond any further possible glimmer of doubt that people do not like to group more than is absolutely neccessary to achieve a specific goal, and only on occasion.

With 40+ Scenerios, I think they can afford to have many types. All random groups, all premade groups, random-premade mix, 2 raid groups.  I like random grouping, it levels the playingfield.  I really hate when raid groups go up against non raids, its hardly ever fair.  Probably should leave the raid groups to overland battlegrounds.

[Venkman]

I agree that PUGs vs premade groups generally mean steamrolled PUG in an un-fun way. If WoW BGs had prompted more premades, I would have been in favor of the game ONLY pitting PUGs v PUGs and premades v premades. Just not enough premades though.

Given WAR's focus on PvP though, particularly how it apparently integrates with the whole of the game (and not just another ladder as is WoW BGs), maybe they'll be able to better ensure balancing.

I don't want 40-man PUGs though. They usually suck for six months until the truly dedicated leader-types emerge with their charisma and generally-good-chance-of-winning strategies. I've been in enough AV turtles to REALLY hate being in a PUG when the losses start piling up. At least WSG and AB were over quick, so I didn't have to listen to incessant "i told you so" and "we shoulda taken BS you n00bs" for too long.

[tazelbain]

In Guild Wars Alliance battle PvP, its 12v12 but people can only join is groups of 4.  It's a good compramise, you can play with a few friends but you can't dominate with an uberbuild and vent.

[eldaec]

By locked, I guess you mean like how BGs killed overland PvP on WoW PvP servers.  I'd hope Mythic would do a better job since PvP is going to be their bread 'n' butter. Probably lots of tweaking on the server on how much each types contributes to the war. But no matter people are going to complain.

I think the key difference is that in WoW is that overland and arena pvp both have the same impact on the game world - albeit no impact whatsoever.

In WAR, if the primary way to impact the battlefront is arenas rather than daoc style sieges or other 'open' events, you get a situation which encourages ubers to exclude noobs. The WoW pug battleground group mechanics are all well and good when nothing depends on the outcome, but when it is connected to the 'war' realm communities are likely to build informal strategies to 'manage' who gets 'randomly' selected.

I'll be interested in how WAR will prevent arena queue exploits, such as one realm preventing an arena event from firing by simply not joining the queues on a battlefront that is not percieved to favour them, or having pre-made groups bumrush the arena queue.


And of course, if we were to look at this optimistically, it is always possible that the video was overstating the importance of closed rvr because that was what they were showcasing.

[eldaec]

Something Mythic may have inadvertently announced is that the maximum group size looks like being 6.

I say this because the arena sizes mentioned were all multiples of 6 (6v6 12v12 etc).

[Arthur_Parker]

Gamespy preview

Curse Gaming preview

RPGVault preview

Gamespot preview, plus the video interview on this page is worth watching

[Murgos]

EA has no interest in stepping in and messing with things that work well.

Que?  Yo no hablo.  I obviously don't speak the same language as this guy because that line makes no sense to me.  I, personally, am convinced that EA waits until you have produced a success for them and THEN they destroy you.  Because that's the kind of demon hell spawn that run the place.

[Evangolis]

So, I'm not seeing any negatives in all this press.  Is that because there are few nits to pick (unlikely, IMO), or because the authors have no objectivity (possible, IMO), or because the exposure of information has been skillfully handled (less possible, IMO)?

In any event, I did see some things I liked, particularly the idea of starting players out with 'public quests' to get them grouping in a low stress way, and the addition of a reset to RvR, although the devil will certainly lie in the details there.  And a line from the Christmas party videos (not linked here, I think, but available via Gamespot) about witchhunters; 'We're bringing you the Spanish Inquisition - in leather.'

It could work.

[Riggswolfe]

I agree Evangolis. I'd love to believe that WAR will be the second coming in MMOs but am trying to remain skeptical. I did notice that what classes and scenarios were available were very limited, so we still don't know alot about the game.

[slog]

I agree Evangolis. I'd love to believe that WAR will be the second coming in MMOs but am trying to remain skeptical. I did notice that what classes and scenarios were available were very limited, so we still don't know alot about the game.

It's going to be WOW clone with RvR.  Mythic made their money doing evolutionary games, not revolutionary ones.


Edited for spelling.

[Nebu]

It's going to be WOW clone with RvR.  Mythic made their money doing evolutionary games, not revolutionary ones.

As opposed to Blizzard who... that's right... made their money doing evolutionary games, not revolutionary ones.  There aren't any patently new ideas in Diablo or WoW, just a fine job of streamlining old concepts.  Seems to be a good way to make a buck.

When it comes to pvp in an mmog, I happen to think that Mythic has been fairly revolutionary.  It gets overlooked often because their PvE has been so god awful.   

[Evangolis]

I'm still wading through all the PR crap out there.  Looking at the screenshots and thinking about the game design, I have to say that this game cries out for destructable terrain features, if not in real time, then at ownership change.

Not sure about this being the next coming, but it does have the potential to not suck.  But the devil remains in the details.

[tazelbain]

Yes, but some evolve faster than others.  This seems like a pretty quick pace.

Anyway, this event still hasn't persuaded me that combat is any good or has variety. Silouetting? Is that code-word for one trick-pony?  It sounds like they are going for very tight classes. Maybe that is easier balance and easier for new players, but in the long run it'll be boring.  When you see a group of dwarves and a warrior priest, you know how they will fight because there really only one way to play that group effectively.

[Nebu]

Not sure about this being the next coming, but it does have the potential to not suck.  But the devil remains in the details.

I know what you mean.  I remember the buzz about Auto Assault early in its production and look how that turned out. 

I'm going to remain cautiously optimistic.

[Riggswolfe]

I agree Evangolis. I'd love to believe that WAR will be the second coming in MMOs but am trying to remain skeptical. I did notice that what classes and scenarios were available were very limited, so we still don't know alot about the game.

It's going to be WOW clone with RvR.  Mythic made their money doing evolutionary games, not revolutionary ones.


Edited for spelling.

Ignoring the background lore which is enough to make them different, I still don't think so. The big reason I say this is the core design seems to be a big change in MMOs "standards". By that I mean:

No buffing classes and no dedicated healing classes. To me those two right there will change up the gameplay to a significant degree. I especially hope that they keep the concept that healing classes get spell energy by fighting. This would mean players can't pigeonhole classes back into the old MMO standards. All classes are expected to fight.

From the gamespy preview:

Indeed, those familiar with traditional MMO combat will be very surprised by Warhammer Online -- in addition to no crowd control and no long-term buffs, there are minimal stealth options. In Warhammer Online, you're expected to get in there and mix it up.

No crowd control and no long-term buffs, as well as them saying there is no "buffing class" seems to paint a very different picture of combat in this game to what we are familiar with. My only concern with this is that classes may be somewhat one-dimensional, basically "pick how you want to kill things." But on another level I'm overjoyed. Crowd control and buffs are both big issues in PvP and not having them will make PvP much more interesting IMO.

Also PvP and RvR sound like they're much more integral to this game than they are in WoW. Now, some of the basic PvE aspects will be similiar, IE questing, but I don't think it is enough to call it a WoW clone.

So yeah, not a WoW clone. That said I do have some concerns:

1) How much difference is there in the classes? How versatile are they? In an interview one of the devs claims you can solo from 1 - max level but how true is this?
2) How much will itemization affect PvP? This is one of WoW's big pvp downfalls IMO. Raiding guilds can wipe out pure PvP guilds. It sounds like WAR may have a handle on this with PVP loot but we'll see.
3) Will the PvE be any fun? I need fun PvE to keep my attention. I'm not one of you PK-types that will pvp 24 hours, I want some downtime too.
4) What is the end-game? I pray to all that is holy that it doesn't go down the raiding path.

[Evangolis]

Scenarios read like PvP raids to me.  Could be interesting, but can you do the matchmaking required, or is one side always going to be a PUG?  Details.

It's a long way to release yet.

[eldaec]

Regarding buffs - if you read what Mythic specifically have said, it seems more akin to 'no buffbots' than 'no longterm buffs'.

There is already a dwarf runeguy class that appears to based entirely around short and long term buffs. The trick is they claim to have included mechanisms to keep the buffers active (something that has been shown to work in CoH and EQ2 amoungst others).



As regards classes being too similar and one-dimensional, that really depends entirely on how they are implemented. Noone has yet managed to match the variety that CoH provides with just 5 classes named for very obvious MMOG archetypes. If WAR 'Healers' are as varied as CoH 'Defenders' then nobody will ever have any right to complain. OTOH if WAR 'Melee Tankers' are only as varied as all EQ or WoW tanks put together then the 'best combat group' could quickly become solvable.



The idea that healers must use offensive skills to generate support power is elegant in principle, and plays into Mythic's 'morale' concept of having characters increasing in power throughout an engagement (unlike current MMOGs which go entirely wrong by having characters decrease in power during an engagement). But I am worried about how this fits together with the fact that some people like to play pure support (people who don't like playing a cleric *really* need to accept this and get over it). I see the attraction of the whole smite cleric thing - but it does tend to lead to tears before bedtime if developers work out that support classes of any sort can compete with non-support classes.

Also the methods of gathering healing power seem hard to balance against each other (eg. melee faith generation vs ranged dps waaagh generation sounds hard to balance). Kudos to whomever finds the right forumla for that one.

[eldaec]

Scenarios read like PvP raids to me.  Could be interesting, but can you do the matchmaking required, or is one side always going to be a PUG?  Details.

tbh, I'd be surprised if they don't let pre-made guild groups into all of them.

This isn't WoW where people go pvp as a diversion. RvR is what the high end guilds will be *for* and they'll be expecting to plug their premades into these arena battles all day and night.

Silouetting? Is that code-word for one trick-pony?

Nah, it's a code word for 'all witchunters wear that style of hat so I can see what class you are at a 100ft range'.

So, I'm not seeing any negatives in all this press.  Is that because there are few nits to pick (unlikely, IMO), or because the authors have no objectivity (possible, IMO), or because the exposure of information has been skillfully handled (less possible, IMO)?

I think it's more because the games industry "press" isn't capable of critical analysis at a 1 year out preview (and only barely capable at review), and because they don't even listen to small amount of information developers give them.

Most of the reason we know as much as we do is because people here and on other MMOG sites are capable of parsing the precise words used by MMOG developers into information far better than 'some random guy from IGN who turned up for a goody bag'.

I agree with your point that this could still suck ofc.

I don't see it sucking like Vanguard though.

[Hoax]

Seriously go read the class press releases given to tentonhammer (and probably others) for the orcs and dwarves.  Sounds pretty fucking awesome when you figure out what they are trying to do.  The rest of this is just smoke up my ass.


I feel like the only way I'd even try to be confident at this point would be if when CB starts EVERYTHING on the pvp side is in place.  Perhaps PvE content doesn't even exist yet or only the newbie content or w/e.  But the PvP needs to be in place, fully, they keep saying and hinting at PvP from the ground up, but I always expect it to be tacked on.


Open areas:  What we know so far is every "zone" has some pvp component in it.  How does this work with the whole, no high level ganking allowed at all?  I mean I'm trying to imagine a zone structure where you could have a low level zone that both sides lowbies could access but it wouldn't hinder the movement of vet players.  Anyone figured that one out yet?  I would love to see the white board that shows how they are planning to lay the world out.

Also how well designed will these pvp components be?  Does that mean that every zone will have access to at least one BG style instanced fight?  That's sort of what I'm expecting.  Although hopefully some will have improved (non-shitty) versions of what WoW did in TBC with some of the new zones to try to encourage world pvp.

I'm also hoping that they create a shit-ton of zones that play like Hillsbrad.  Every pvp'er loved HB back in the pre-BG days.  That was when WoW was fun for me.  HB raids, Arathi Highlands raids, shit like that.  There was nothing I loved more then hiding in the middle of spawns of npc's that were neutral/friendly to me but would aggro horde.  It allowed a player who was outnumbered to still cause problems.  Hopefully they realize that and make most npc's neutral to one side and hostile to the other.

For that matter how incredibly awesome would it be, if you could fill empty spots in your "party" with local friendly npc's?  So basically you come to <generic empire border town here> and you and your buddy are duo'ing.  You go to the militia captain and recruit (pay some small fee) to gain the services of 4 generic militiamen.  I know they aren't doing that but once my mind started along the path I had to post it...

Anyways, this next year might not be so bad, at least we get to talk about pvp systems, not cock blocking systems (thx VG!).

[Riggswolfe]

But I am worried about how this fits together with the fact that some people like to play pure support (people who don't like playing a cleric *really* need to accept this and get over it). I see the attraction of the whole smite cleric thing - but it does tend to lead to tears before bedtime if developers work out that support classes of any sort can compete with non-support classes.

That thought had occured to me. My big fear is that Mythic will bow to some kind of pressure and make some classes pure support to fit that playstyle. I hope it doesn't happen though as nothing annoyed me more in WoW than becoming a heal/buffbot in high end raids. (something I should have seen coming honestly but managed to delude myself about.)

[Hoax]

The Squigg herder is already full support.  Not healing support but it is a completely out of combat class. The omg I wanna be pure support jackasses who are all manginas who want to get free shit by being a high elf healer w/ big titties can fuck off.  Learn to be DPS support you wanks.   

[Nebu]

The Squigg herder is already full support.  Not healing support but it is a completely out of combat class. The omg I wanna be pure support jackasses who are all manginas who want to get free shit by being a high elf healer w/ big titties can fuck off.  Learn to be DPS support you wanks.   

God forbid anyone should want to play the game differently than what you see as TEH VISION(tm).  Some people like to play support.  Thank god for that... it means I don't have to. 

[Riggswolfe]

The Squigg herder is already full support.  Not healing support but it is a completely out of combat class. The omg I wanna be pure support jackasses who are all manginas who want to get free shit by being a high elf healer w/ big titties can fuck off.  Learn to be DPS support you wanks.   

Actually it seems to be more a ranged/pet class. Probably closer to the WoW hunter than a support class.

[slog]

I agree Evangolis. I'd love to believe that WAR will be the second coming in MMOs but am trying to remain skeptical. I did notice that what classes and scenarios were available were very limited, so we still don't know alot about the game.

It's going to be WOW clone with RvR.  Mythic made their money doing evolutionary games, not revolutionary ones.


Edited for spelling.

Ignoring the background lore which is enough to make them different, I still don't think so. The big reason I say this is the core design seems to be a big change in MMOs "standards". By that I mean:

No buffing classes and no dedicated healing classes. To me those two right there will change up the gameplay to a significant degree. I especially hope that they keep the concept that healing classes get spell energy by fighting. This would mean players can't pigeonhole classes back into the old MMO standards. All classes are expected to fight.

From the gamespy preview:

Indeed, those familiar with traditional MMO combat will be very surprised by Warhammer Online -- in addition to no crowd control and no long-term buffs, there are minimal stealth options. In Warhammer Online, you're expected to get in there and mix it up.

No crowd control and no long-term buffs, as well as them saying there is no "buffing class" seems to paint a very different picture of combat in this game to what we are familiar with. My only concern with this is that classes may be somewhat one-dimensional, basically "pick how you want to kill things." But on another level I'm overjoyed. Crowd control and buffs are both big issues in PvP and not having them will make PvP much more interesting IMO.

Also PvP and RvR sound like they're much more integral to this game than they are in WoW. Now, some of the basic PvE aspects will be similiar, IE questing, but I don't think it is enough to call it a WoW clone.

Yanking out enchanters and shaman (I'm useing EQ1 terms here) and giving their spells to other classes is not revolutionary.  It's like you guys never played a MMORPG before.  FAQ's and previews are intentionally vauge and deceiving to make the game appear to be something besides the same old shit re-hashed.

[Hoax]

/\/\/\/\/\
@Slog:  Have you read the melee class descriptions?  If they can actually make something that plays like the fluff piece reads, it will have a decent amount of innovation within the Diku structure.  Will they actually make it work, I doubt it, but at least they say they are trying, or something.

The Squigg herder is already full support.  Not healing support but it is a completely out of combat class. The omg I wanna be pure support jackasses who are all manginas who want to get free shit by being a high elf healer w/ big titties can fuck off.  Learn to be DPS support you wanks.   

God forbid anyone should want to play the game differently than what you see as TEH VISION(tm).  Some people like to play support.  Thank god for that... it means I don't have to. 

Lets not derail this good topic, goddamn I'm having bad luck with people's reactions to shit this morning.

You do realize we're talking about hypothetical players that are hypothetically crying about there not being a healer who can only heal right?  What I was saying is, there are classes that will not be in the thick of combat, if you absolutely require that you get to watch other people's lifebars and have the satisfaction of feeling like you saved them from death.  So far it seems like your going to need to melee also.  Boohoo for you.  But really lets stop because this is stupid.  Why does my offhand comment about this get quoted but nobody talks about zone-setups or anything else I post about...

[Nebu]

Commenting on a press release or some exclusive interview is just something to pass the time until the game enters beta.  Noone takes this stuff very seriously.  It's just part of the hype machine. 

In answer to you Hoax, there is some irony in your statements if you take the time to find it. 

[slog]

I can't see the sites from work as they are blocked,  but feel free to copy and past them here.  I will then break them down line by line to demonstrate my point.

[Riggswolfe]

I can't see the sites from work as they are blocked,  but feel free to copy and past them here.  I will then break them down line by line to demonstrate my point.

So you can't see the sites but have decided this is a WoW clone from zero information? Noone truly knows what it is yet, but all the information leads to it not being a WoW clone. More like DAOC++ with the removal of some things that caused problems last time: too many classes, pure support/healing classes, crowd control, boring PvE (this PvE sounds much better.)

Of course, until people can talk about it in a fuller form it's mostly just speculation at this point. Though fun speculation. At the very least though we know they're not aiming to be a WoW clone.

[slog]

I can't see the sites from work as they are blocked,  but feel free to copy and past them here.  I will then break them down line by line to demonstrate my point.

So you can't see the sites but have decided this is a WoW clone from zero information? Noone truly knows what it is yet, but all the information leads to it not being a WoW clone. More like DAOC++ with the removal of some things that caused problems last time: too many classes, pure support/healing classes, crowd control, boring PvE (this PvE sounds much better.)

Of course, until people can talk about it in a fuller form it's mostly just speculation at this point. Though fun speculation. At the very least though we know they're not aiming to be a WoW clone.

Perfect example!!

 I wrote "I can't see the sites from work" which you read as "Slog has never read anything about Warhammer ever."  There are plenty of other possible options such as "Slog read the post from home but didn't bother to reply" or "Slog has been following the game for 5 months but didn't mention that" and so on.