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Author Topic: I See What You Did There. A Vanguard Review.  (Read 54534 times)
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on: January 28, 2007, 03:17:58 AM

« Last Edit: January 28, 2007, 03:24:45 AM by schild »
Falconeer
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Reply #1 on: January 28, 2007, 03:34:38 AM

Whoa. Nice review.

pxib
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Reply #2 on: January 28, 2007, 04:27:18 AM

It's only a model.
I didn't think it could happen, but you've brought Vanguard to life for me. Looks like somebody finally made that dream MMOG I've been waiting for since I got tired of UO: the proverbial "last game I'll ever buy." I'm heading out and get my preorder as soon as the stores open in the morning. Bless you, Schild. You smug bastard... you've made me hope again.
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Reply #3 on: January 28, 2007, 04:41:48 AM

I can't figure out whether you understood what I just did. The internet is hard.
pxib
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Reply #4 on: January 28, 2007, 04:49:46 AM

I love you, man.
Signe
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Muse.


Reply #5 on: January 28, 2007, 09:20:39 AM

I can't figure out whether you understood what I just did. The internet is hard.

I see what you did there.

My Sig Image: hath rid itself of this mortal coil.
Miasma
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Reply #6 on: January 28, 2007, 10:15:10 AM

I keep forgetting to buy that movie.
Llava
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Reply #7 on: January 28, 2007, 10:31:47 AM

I was expecting cursing.

That the saints may enjoy their beatitude and the grace of God more abundantly they are permitted to see the punishment of the damned in hell. -Saint Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica
Arthur_Parker
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Reply #8 on: January 28, 2007, 10:43:20 AM

Didn't get the joke.
bhodi
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No lie.


Reply #9 on: January 28, 2007, 10:49:27 AM

Is he saying that, like Monty Python, the entire game is one elaborate joke? If so...

bignatz
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Reply #10 on: January 28, 2007, 02:18:58 PM


What was wrong with "you guys never learn... where's the game" ?
stray
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Reply #11 on: January 28, 2007, 03:02:51 PM

Let's not go to Camelot. It is a silly place.
Soln
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Reply #12 on: January 28, 2007, 03:05:36 PM

"HUGE tracks of land"  sic
Falconeer
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Reply #13 on: January 28, 2007, 03:21:51 PM

I was about to re-organize my amateurish preview of Vanguard.
Then again I thought: "Fuck that. I talked enough about Vanguard. Now I just wanna play it."

It's addictive as expected, it's better than expected and it's fucking explorators heaven.
There's no need you believe it, it's more than enough that it delivers for me. Thread closed. I'm relogging in VG right now and you all can go playing whatever you like.

stray
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Reply #14 on: January 28, 2007, 03:22:51 PM

Lets not go to Camelot. It is a silly place.
Signe
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Muse.


Reply #15 on: January 28, 2007, 04:59:13 PM

Stray! Falconeer said, "Thread closed!"  Don't make him stamp his foot!   angry

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Reply #16 on: January 28, 2007, 05:32:48 PM

Yah, thanks Signe. Tell'em.

 :-D

Hoax
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Reply #17 on: January 28, 2007, 06:01:14 PM

I dont get it, this whole thing left me feeling sad that there wasn't some kind of write-up with cursing and stuff.

A nation consists of its laws. A nation does not consist of its situation at a given time. If an individual's morals are situational, then that individual is without morals. If a nation's laws are situational, that nation has no laws, and soon isn't a nation.
-William Gibson
stray
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Reply #18 on: January 28, 2007, 06:41:08 PM

Has it not come to that though? This type of game isn't even worth rage anymore.
pxib
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Reply #19 on: January 28, 2007, 06:50:32 PM

You know the old joke about There...

"There's no There There."

We've already talked this game's flaws to death. All that was left was to offer it a chance to surprise and delight us... apparently the Pallid Scorpion will have none of that. Vanguard went a slightly different direction, but it's no further from Everquest than DAoCAMELOT! and there's nothing new to complain about. All Schild could have done is make the same tired rants that he, and the rest of us, have been reading and writing for nearly a decade.

McQuaid and team obviously haven't been listening.
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Reply #20 on: January 28, 2007, 06:51:07 PM

That's exactly it. There's nothing left to rant about in any way. If these fuckers don't even want to try to create an engaging experience from the first moment you log in, then fuck'em. These people are never, ever, ever going to learn. And when I say these people, I mean MMOG devs. No one wants to think outside the goddamn box, and the people that do think outside the box almost never create any sort of cohesive experience. I realize f13 started off pretty MMOG-centric, and I realize I used to be a lot more tolerant of MMOGs. But it's just not worth the expulsion of any sort of energy anymore. The most any shitty game is going to get out of me is some obscure joke and a photoshop. I just don't have the sort of time to waste that I used to have on this sort of shit. There's too many good games. When a _good_, from the get-go, MMOG comes out, I'll gladly come back and talk about it ad nauseum. But until then? Meh. Was of customer's money. Waste of development money. Just a big waste of money. Want something positive? I'm sure there's lots of good people at these companies, and I'm glad they have jobs. The videogame industry is a harsh place and those people are the glue that keeps it together. Too bad QA doesn't get paid enough to have the cajones to call something as they see it. When that happens, we might see some positive change.

Edit: Pxib, you get cookies.
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Reply #21 on: January 28, 2007, 09:44:04 PM

Fucking brilliant review Schild.

Nebu
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Reply #22 on: January 29, 2007, 01:35:44 AM

Very funny as an inside joke, but I think it's a missed opportunity.  I realize that you're throwing in the towel since anything you say won't change things... but why not at least take a shot?  People come here for the straight story and this would be a chance to show them that you're at least objective enough to provide it.  There are a lot of disenfranchised gamers out there dying for a place to read a REAL review of this game from somone that is intelligent, articulate, and experienced.  I think just such a review done right could generate some traffic.  Now they're left with the usual review fansite garbage from the standard people making a turd smell like a rose because they want a free peek at the next game on the horizon.   

Perhaps I'm naive.

« Last Edit: January 29, 2007, 01:38:29 AM by Nebu »

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
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Reply #23 on: January 29, 2007, 01:43:18 AM

Very funny as an inside joke, but I think it's a missed opportunity.  I realize that you're throwing in the towel since anything you say won't change things... but why not at least take a shot?  People come here for the straight story and this would be a chance to show them that you're at least objective enough to provide it.  There are a lot of disenfranchised gamers out there dying for a place to read a REAL review of this game from somone that is intelligent, articulate, and experienced.  I think just such a review done right could generate some traffic.  Now they're left with the usual review fansite garbage from the standard people making a turd smell like a rose because they want a free peek at the next game on the horizon.   

Perhaps I'm naive.


I think it's more Haemish's style to write long reviews on why something sucks than it is schild's.
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Reply #24 on: January 29, 2007, 01:51:26 AM

I think it's more Haemish's style to write long reviews on why something sucks than it is schild's.

Good reviews take time and work.  Anyone can say a game sucks.  Few can articulate why with an air of objectivity while maintaining credibility.  I certainly don't have the talent to do it, nor do most people.  That's why we come to sites like this... to read well-written reactions that state our exact feelings more eloquently than any of us ever could put into words.  I have a great deal of respect for Haemish as he possesses an uncanny ability to do just that.     


"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
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Reply #25 on: January 29, 2007, 01:57:00 AM

A good post release MMO review really needs around a week's worth of playtime (calendar, not /played). Even then it's difficult, because it's hard to motivate yourself to play something that sucks.  For a week. And then you have to write about it, then it has to get editted and posted.

Then you write it up, and 5 people read it.  No one cares about the game anymore because it's last week's news a week late.  Kinda like my AA review. </bitter>

You know, you could write a review.  You're intelligent.  You can write. Your views on what makes a good MMO are a lot different than mine, but I'd be interested anyhow.

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Reply #26 on: January 29, 2007, 02:00:02 AM

Very funny as an inside joke, but I think it's a missed opportunity.  I realize that you're throwing in the towel since anything you say won't change things... but why not at least take a shot?  People come here for the straight story and this would be a chance to show them that you're at least objective enough to provide it.  There are a lot of disenfranchised gamers out there dying for a place to read a REAL review of this game from somone that is intelligent, articulate, and experienced.  I think just such a review done right could generate some traffic.  Now they're left with the usual review fansite garbage from the standard people making a turd smell like a rose because they want a free peek at the next game on the horizon.   

Perhaps I'm naive.



How can he do anything like that when he played about 3 minutes?

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Reply #27 on: January 29, 2007, 02:04:08 AM

Then you write it up, and 5 people read it.  No one cares about the game anymore because it's last week's news a week late.  Kinda like my AA review. </bitter>

Now you know how I feel posting about comics in a sub-forum that only about 6 people read on a regular basis.  I guess if you enjoy doing it though, it doesn't matter much how many people read it.  I think that's why Haemish is good at what he does.  He loves to hate bad movies, comics, TV, and games.
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Reply #28 on: January 29, 2007, 02:05:21 AM

People are tired of same old, same old.

Once you've played Knights of the Round, Aliens. vs. Predator, Final Fight and The Punisher do you really need a comprehensive review of Cadillacs vs. Dinosaurs? (Obscure analogy for the win!)

It is pretty boring to say that something sucks in a predictable, tired way that everyone saw coming, or that a game suffers from the same problems most other games suffer from. A whole bunch of aggravating bugs - wow what a surprise! "Same as it ever was" sounds like a fine review to me.

At least if you are going to make mistakes, make new interesting ones. A game with a bunch of "potential" and a mess of problems, bugs and jagged edges...original.

At least AA was an original (in the MMORPG world) premise. A mediocre fantasy MMOPRG? Been there, done that, burned the T-shirt.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
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Reply #29 on: January 29, 2007, 02:09:02 AM

A good post release MMO review really needs around a week's worth of playtime (calendar, not /played). Even then it's difficult, because it's hard to motivate yourself to play something that sucks.  For a week. And then you have to write about it, then it has to get editted and posted.

Then you write it up, and 5 people read it.  No one cares about the game anymore because it's last week's news a week late.  Kinda like my AA review. </bitter>

You know, you could write a review.  You're intelligent.  You can write. Your views on what makes a good MMO are a lot different than mine, but I'd be interested anyhow.

I'm sure I could write an objective article about Vanguard.  I'm also sure it wouldn't have the same punch as anything Schild or Haemish could write... I don't have the gift for writing that they do.  That's why this left me disappointed.  I enjoy reading their reactions to games.  That's one of the things that led me here.  I think that's a part of what brings many people here.  

Maybe we can coax a comic out of Samprimary.  



« Last Edit: January 29, 2007, 02:10:43 AM by Nebu »

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
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Reply #30 on: January 29, 2007, 02:22:44 AM

/yawn.


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Reply #31 on: January 29, 2007, 03:23:23 AM

Guys, look. I don't know how else to put this. So I'll say it simply. 50+ Games come out every year that I think are worth playing. I beat maybe 15-25 of them. The other 25 sit around and I come back to them and thrash them on rainy days and holidays. I absolutely refuse to play anything that turns me off in my first moments in the game. It's the most basic of things to get right and one of the easiest things TO get right. Wow me with colors. Shock me with well-written dialogue. Just do something. Everything in gaming comes down to the first impression. Do you know why things like Indigo Prophecy and God of War and Resident Evil 4 were played and beaten by _so_many_people who often don't beat games? Because they were grabbed from the get go. Ookii, who almost never beats anything that isn't an FPS played almost all the way through Indigo and God of War in one sitting each. Even if they hadn't been crafted well enough to stick with, the openings sure pulled me in.

Honestly, I don't care how much depth something has if it's not good from the first moment. Learning curves are one thing, boredom is another. Vanguard is fucking boring. BORING, BORING, BORING. I don't care if the diplomacy is the most badass thing since Civiliation 2 met Romance of the 3 Kingdoms. I don't care if the crafting system is Atelier Iris mixed with fucking Magic the Gathering. I know what the core gameplay is. And it licks my balls. The game doesn't even try to say "Play me, I could be fun." No, it just says, "Hey, I'm another asshole who moved into your neighborhood, can I borrow a shovel?" Man, that just sucks and I don't have time for it. I'm playing 3 games right now that aren't out yet (reviews in February!) - all 3 of them are far superior to anything Sigil could have put out. Sure, that's due to the development team, but in the short time I was in Vanguard, I'd already given it more of a chance than any other MMOG this year (including some NDA stuff). Why? Because someone decided it was ready for release.

As I said before, when you support games like this - that are nowhere near ready for release - purely in terms of bugs and WORLD CHANGING patches every week- you're part of the problem. Do yourself a favor. Stay away. Stay far the fuck away. Go play on a UO server. Go play SW:G. Go play Shin Megami Tensei: Imagine's beta even if you don't understand moonspeak. Any of those will be better than this. This is a game that's about to charge you money. That's something I just can't put up with anymore. And if that upsets you, I'm sorry. I just don't have time for crappy games and frankly, they don't deserve respect from any of us. We're better than that.

Edit: I'd like to clarify, there are SOME THINGS that you go into expecting buildup. The aforementioned Romance of the 3 Kingdoms titles, first impressions for that came from when I was younger and more easily attached to games. I know what to expect from them. They don't deliver the hard hitting "oomph" of a God of War type. They do something else. They give results that make you feel better for using proper strategy and such. There's more self-perfection in those games than any MMOG, and I realize that goes against the bulk of my argument. But even those games I got into when I was younger have to try harder and harder to keep my attention. The last Romance I played before 10 was 8, and before that it was way back in the SNES era. I must've logged a total of 15 hours on 8 and 10. Must've logged 60-100 hours back in the day. The new ones just don't pull me in enough and say "This is a good way to spend your time." We'll see how XI does in a few weeks.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2007, 03:26:30 AM by schild »
pxib
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Reply #32 on: January 29, 2007, 03:44:20 AM

Vangaurd has contracted out a system through one of those web companies that lets you make flash avatars to deliver messages. I imagine it was intended to allow excited players to invite ignorant friends. This requires imagination on my part because it is not an intuitive result of the application. The twitchy, squinting avatars are immediately off-putting in every available costume, and the speech synthesis ably mumbles and mispronounces any custom message. There are three pre-recorded options, however... and I believe they artfully express the piss-poor planning and relentlessly half-assed execution that shadows every corner of this project:
Quote from: Excitable Rogue
If you're lucky, I'll let you take a ride on my flying mount!
Can you make that sound sleazy? So can he.
My Vanguard Review: C
Quote from: Leading Man
When you get to the world of Vanguard, look to the skies. You'll see me there... on the wings of a dragon!
The best voice actor of the trio, with the trill and timbre of a action hero from the 1930's. I imagine him much as I imagine the barnstormers of that era... bravely standing atop the wings of his dragon while his pilot does barrel rolls and laughs at danger. I don't imagine this functionality is available in-game.
My Vanguard Review: B+
Quote from: Effeminate Elf
Set yourself free and join me in a world without boundaries. A land where we will forge our own destinies.
Several female avatars are available, but this is the only voice that isn't baritone or beyond. It is also obviously a man speaking in falsetto. I won't ask why he chose to forge that destiny, but it's a boundary he can cross on his own.
My Vanguard Review: D

Worse yet, one of the available backgrounds is (I kid you not) the outside of Brad McQuaid's office.

The ways one might use this tool to mock and debase the game, they are beyond counting... but I can't figure out how anybody could successfully use it for what is, doubtless, it's intended purpose. That, writ large, is the trouble with Vanguard. PLEASE DO NOT HUNT THIS THING DOWN AND USE IT TO MOCK AND DEBASE THE GAME. We don't need another 30 page thread about this trash, and frankly Sigil doesn't need your help.
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Reply #33 on: January 29, 2007, 04:10:28 AM

(stuff)

That, writ large, is the trouble with Vanguard. PLEASE DO NOT HUNT THIS THING DOWN AND USE IT TO MOCK AND DEBASE THE GAME. We don't need another 30 page thread about this trash, and frankly Sigil doesn't need your help.

Someone hasn't been watching the Den. There was some usage of this tool for argumentative/comedic effect in another Vanguard-centric thread. Then it got stupid and got sent to bed without its supper.
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Reply #34 on: January 29, 2007, 09:41:36 AM

Upset? Naw.  I saw this as a wasted opportunity given some of our conversations.  Ultimately this is your sandbox and whatever you decide is what will happen.   I respect your choices and your gaming opinions and I'm in no way telling you how to go about your business.  Here's why I thought this was a lost opportunity:

1) I seem to recall you telling me that the MMOG forums have been the most active forums lately.  Unless I'm forgetting something obvious, Vanguard, Age of Conan, LotR Online, and Warhammer are the titles on the horizon receiving the most hype.  That's 4 games in the next calendar year in the genre receiving the most attention on your own forums.  Compared to the number of console titles you'll play/review, that's nothing. 

2) If you really mean it when you say that the consumer is part of the problem (and I agree with you completely), then why not do what you can to spread the word in educating the consumer?  Provide an entertaining review that lets them know immediately what they're getting into.  Each person you steer away is like another starfish thrown back into the sea...

3) You're an entertaining writer.  This is an opportunity to demonstrate it to people outside the niche.

It's not what you tell the niche audience here.  We're all here because we take the time to research this crap and make educated decisions about it.  It's the chance to spread the word to those that would normally get the candy-coated version from Warcry, IGN, Stratics, etc. 

Sorry if I ruffled any feathers.

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
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