Battlestar Galactica (spoilers/speculation)

[Riggswolfe]

My theory:

If you grok to the fact that the Cylons are essentially Buddhists and know a bit about that philosophy, last night's ep makes a lot more sense.

So, care to share the relevant parts of Buddhist philosophy?

[Roac]

Watch the scene in question in slow motion. There is something that looks like an eject and you can see the raider appear in the clouds at least once during that part of the scene.

The catch isn't that you see the Raider, it's that you see it from Apollo's cockpit.  When he said "I have a visual" my first thought was that he was reporting that he'd seen the Cylon, not Kara.  That means it's not just in her head; there almost certainly was a Raider flying about in the clouds.

[Jayce]

I still think that she'll wake up in a tank.  I don't think it's ever been said that the res ship has to have a blueprint of the model in question in order to res one.

Think about it: 
Leoben said "now you get to find out what lies between life and death" or something to that effect.
This was a gas giant or something, and her helmet was cracked.  She could survive being ejected and caught by a raider?  That would be a stretch.
D'anna saw someone and said "I had no idea, I'm so sorry"... I'm thinking we know who this was now.


Speaking of D'anna, I think some rogue model (possibly Caprica Six) will unbox at least one copy of her.  Discuss.

[Riggswolfe]

Another thing to bring up, D'anna was killing herself over and over in an attempt to see the Five before she rezzed. Possibly this is Kara starting on the same kind of journey?

[Abagadro]

My theory:

If you grok to the fact that the Cylons are essentially Buddhists and know a bit about that philosophy, last night's ep makes a lot more sense.

So, care to share the relevant parts of Buddhist philosophy?

Buddhists believe that everyone is reincarnated after they die each time, inheriting the "sins" of the prior life. The state of living is suffering (i.e. Dharma). The highest state of existence is reaching a state in which this doesn't happen, i.e. Nirvana or nothingness.  My theory is that Cylons actually hate the whole resurrection business and want to be able to "accept death". This is what is leading to the quest for normal birth (which would, ipso facto, lead to normal death). Almost all of the statements made by Cylon dude last night were highly related to the quest for Nirvana. Also, the concentric circle thing was basically a Budhist mandala.

[Jayce]

Buddhists believe that everyone is reincarnated after they die each time, inheriting the "sins" of the prior life. The state of living is suffering (i.e. Dharma). The highest state of existence is reaching a state in which this doesn't happen, i.e. Nirvana or nothingness.  My theory is that Cylons actually hate the whole resurrection business and want to be able to "accept death". This is what is leading to the quest for normal birth (which would, ipso facto, lead to normal death). Almost all of the statements made by Cylon dude last night were highly related to the quest for Nirvana. Also, the concentric circle thing was basically a Budhist mandala.

All that may be, but I don't quite buy it.   It's interesting that it can be taken that way.

But that would essentially mean that the whole series has a Buddhist axe to grind, since it's relied heavily on the ability of the Cylons to return to life from the beginning.  If so, it's the subtlest axe I ever had applied to me.

Also, I heard on the podcast that the mandala - which was first seen in Kara's apartment on New Caprica - was actually drawn by the actress herself for some reason (she asked to have it hung on the wall).  Later, they had the idea of the supernova and the eye of Jupiter, and it all fit.  You can see the mandala in one of the early episodes, where she goes back for the Arrow of Apollo.

[Abagadro]

But that would essentially mean that the whole series has a Buddhist axe to grind, since it's relied heavily on the ability of the Cylons to return to life from the beginning.  If so, it's the subtlest axe I ever had applied to me.

I dont' see it as an axe to grind at all. This show borrows theology from all over the place. Just seems to fit the discussion in last night's ep and other things mentioned throughout the rest of the series.

[Xerapis]

Did anyone else find the foreshadowing of her death extremely heavy-handed?

Seriously, I hope that she stays dead and is NOT one of the fab five.

Otherwise, for me, this was pretty much a shark jump.  I shudder to think of the episode where they bring her back and explain all the loose ends.  Sounds painful to watch.

[Roac]

They haven't been foreshadowing her death; they've been foreshadowing her as doing something "special".  If anything they've gone to great lengths, short of simply stating it, that she is not dead.  Her special thing was one of the big metaplots for the season, so I'd be very surprised if they decided to just toss it out with her death.

[Tannhauser]

Eh I see it as a 'you have to die to be reborn' motif.  She ejects from the Viper before it explodes and falls into the gas giant where she goes all 2001 and meets all the "HeadSixes, HeadBaltars, etc."  She will come back in Season 4 and guide them to Earf.

I'm glad she's gone.  Like the actress, but the character just got on my nerves and seemed to disrupt the show. 

Hmm just had an idea.  What if the Headfolks are the Fab Five cylons?  Maybe they are pushing Cylons and Humanity together to forge a new race at Earth?  Like they are?  "This has happened before."

Maybe the Headfolks are the 13th Tribe who have come to lead the others to Earf? 

[Stormwaltz]

Plot-wise, it pushed the limits of my credulity. Acting-wise, it was one of the best I can recall. The scene of Lee and Kara sitting together after she doesn't get in the cockpit communicated more through facial expression that Kiefer Sutherland has in his entire career.

[Riggswolfe]

Here's a link to a radio interview with Katee Sackhoff aka Starbuck

http://www.cortandfatboy.com/index.php?id=489

In it she says Starbuck is dead to her knowledge and that she's doing a pilot for NBC so might not be available even if they want to bring her back.

[Jayce]

She ejects from the Viper before it explodes and falls into the gas giant where

Lee said that he didn't see a chute.  I think she's dead.  Whether she stays that way is another question.

[Bunk]

I say it's a magical gas giant that doesn't have extreme pressures towards the core, but rather a somewhat desolate class M planet. Kara crashes on it along with the raider she was chasing. After she rebuilds the Cylon, they become good friends and spend long days pretending to play Parcheesi, wondering if they will ever be rescued. Then another raider shows up, but the rebuilt Cylon, now named Cy, goes against his programming and saves Kara from the other Cylons, but gets shot and has a dramatic death scene in Kara's arms...

Yea, that's what's gonna happen.

[Furiously]

I loved that episode as a kid.

[Abagadro]

They need more old-west, gunslinger Cylons.

[Dundee]

They need more old-west, gunslinger Cylons.

On horseback, no less.

[Oban]

[Furiously]

Well done.

[Ironwood]

Damn, I'm stupid.  I just got that...

[Yegolev]

Did I just read an Enemy Mine reference?

[angry.bob]

Did I just read an Enemy Mine reference?

Almost, but not quite. I think that was an actual episode of the original series which was as horribly bad and unwatchable as Buck Rogers. 80's TV sci-fi FTL.

[Kitsune]

As of last night, I feel confident in declaring season 3 of Galactica the official:

[Merusk]

The whole "I smell a change in the wind" thing at the end was, oh, fucking Heavy-Handed, sure.  I don't quite see how the episode was a shark-jumper though.   

Next week, however, has the potential to be just based on the teaser.  Of course, teasers are a horrible way to judge anything.

[Bunk]

Did I just read an Enemy Mine reference?

Almost, but not quite. I think that was an actual episode of the original series which was as horribly bad and unwatchable as Buck Rogers. 80's TV sci-fi FTL.

It was an actual episode, that aired after the series as a special. It was a rather similar plott to Enemy Mine.

No shitting on Buck Rogers.

[Evil Elvis]

Aside from about 2 episodes, the entire 3rd season has been shit.  Last night's episode was pretty good, but the whole time I watched it I couldn't help but feel like "I've seen this episode before".

Lee's quit the military and is on his father's shit list.  Again.
Tigh is off the wagon.  Again.
Helo is XO.  Again.
Roslin is dying.  Again.
Duwalla's on the out's with Lee.  Again.

And what the fuck is up with them admitting to the public that there's a half-human/half-cylon baby, and NO ONE giving a shit?  All the humanism they try to paint with those filler eps, all those crazy-assed radicals doing stupid shit like considering Baltar a messiah and giving sanctuary to Six... and an abomination like a hybrid child isn't cause for a good ol' fashioned insurrection?  Wack.

[eldaec]

Aside from about 2 episodes, the entire 3rd season has been shit. 

QFT.

I wrote the whole season off after watching the boxing episode. Christ that was terrible.

Off hand the only good thing I can remember about this season was the episode where everyone escapes from New Caprica.

The first two series used human angst and cylon religio-babble to add depth and motivation, this one has primarily been about the angst and religio-babble, and without any obvious attempt to even attach the angst to the plot.

Helo is XO.  Again.

This one consistently annoys me.

Last time I looked, Helo was a raptor pilot with no significant command experience.

15 minutes after arriving on Galactica he's the XO.

What happened to fat-assertive-guy who was acting-XO when Adama had been shot and Tigh was fucking up as acting-commander?


Also, btw, the increasingly inevitable ending, to wit, 'everyone makes peace and lives forever in happy clappy land', sucks monkey balls. Not least because it's being built up with random Cylon religio-babble which has no impact on the plot, and which isn't being driven by the plot, it's just masturbatory sci-fi bullshit. When it drives genuine conflict (like for about 5 minutes on new caprica, or the episode with the disease) then fair enough. But honestly, how many of those shitty scenes with the woman in the bathtub going all minorty report at Baltar did we really need? (espeicially when Head-Six and Head-Baltar were much better plot devices)

The D'Anna/Caprica/Baltar triangle, seriously, who gave a fuck?

And for fucks sake, on the human side pointless angst has gone beyond a joke. Some of the lead characters need to be just a little bit sympathetic once in a while.


That said, I don't think this is broken beyond repair. I missed a bunch of episodes from series 2 first time around, and I've just been catching them on DVD, watching series 2 again is bizzare, it reminds you that this can be a really good show.

[tazelbain]

I think it is the same shit they have always been doing. It just the spell doesn't hold us anymore.

[Roac]

Lee's quit the military and is on his father's shit list.  Again.
Tigh is off the wagon.  Again.
Helo is XO.  Again.
Roslin is dying.  Again.
Duwalla's on the out's with Lee.  Again.

The only one of those things that bugs me is the first; those two need to fucking get their heads screwed on straight.  He loves Lee when Lee does what he wants, hates him when he doesn't.  Resolve it already.

Tigh fits; he's always off the wagon.  He just sometimes needs shoved in a corner for a bit.  Helo as XO has more to do with using regular actors for the role.  Lee is the only other option, and he screwed that up.  Roslin.. well, this answers a previous question; we thought a dying leader was supposed to lead them, per prophecy.  Now she's dying again.  It was either that, or get a new leader.  Lee's love life is a minor thing too.  I mostly ignore it, because they haven't done anything *at all* with that thread yet.

What bothered me about this is that it took the plot nowhere.  I'm interested in seeing what they do with Baltar, but not over three episodes.  I would've been more interested in seeing how an interrogation of Six went.  Or head six/head baltar.  The other thing is that because they're spending so much time on Human-Human drama, it gives the sense that the last few thousand members of humanity really can't stop killing themselves and focus on the real threat.  Yes, I get it that this is a large metaplot, but enough.  Sometimes, in crisis, people really DO pull themselves up by the bootstrapts and quit bitching long enough to be productive.

And what the fuck is up with them admitting to the public that there's a half-human/half-cylon baby, and NO ONE giving a shit? 

Yeah, I guess that means someone leaked it a while back?  Even if Boomer had the kid, I still would've figured that this would've been classified info.  "Helo, where'd you get the kid?"  "Parents died, we adopted".  So now the fleet knows that baby-juice can ward off disease?  And with medicinal shortages all over?  

[eldaec]

 Roslin.. well, this answers a previous question; we thought a dying leader was supposed to lead them, per prophecy.  Now she's dying again.  It was either that, or get a new leader.  Lee's love life is a minor thing too.  I mostly ignore it, because they haven't done anything *at all* with that thread yet.

I don't think Roslin is *the* dying leader. I still suspect that it's actually baltar. Not least because the person leading both races to Earth has mostly been Baltar.

Six will probably be estranged from the cylons, then we'll end up with Baltar/Six achieving redemption by finally making peace between cylon and human, and finding earth, and dying in the process. 

I think it is the same shit they have always been doing. It just the spell doesn't hold us anymore.

I disagree. I was watching the Cylons-boarding-party-on-Galactica episode from the beginning of series 2 last night. Desperate running about shooting stuff, properly menacing Cylons, and managable levels of angst and political conflict adding tension rather than sucking the life out of the show.

Also, no stupid epsiode long boxing tournaments.

[Evil Elvis]

Yeah, I guess that means someone leaked it a while back?  Even if Boomer had the kid, I still would've figured that this would've been classified info.  "Helo, where'd you get the kid?"  "Parents died, we adopted".  So now the fleet knows that baby-juice can ward off disease?  And with medicinal shortages all over? 

It should have been a major plot point is what pisses me off.  I could buy it being leaked, but then you MUST show some repercussions from it in the show.  They should have devoted an episode to it, instead of it being a throw-away comment during The Trial of the Century.  Maybe they could have fit it in between the episode about Lee's love life, and the episode about Lee's love life.  Shit, they had a whole episode about Sagittaron racism, but we get nada about a half-cylon baby?  RAGE.

[Kitsune]

The characters are just way way too goddamn retarded.  The manic-depressive Adama family, people somehow getting the impression that major fuckup Baltar has divine powers, a courtroom defense with no more strategy to it than trying to attack the credibility of the witnesses, casually mentioning that humans and cyclons can crossbreed, any situation in which a sane person would go one way, the people on the show picked the exact opposite direction.

[eldaec]

btw, the way they should resolve the final 5 thing, is to have Al Quantum-Leap turn around in the middle of some facile boxing tournament, or long discussion about Lee's love life and say...

"You guys are fucking idiots. Look, Centurion - one, Raider - two, Heavy Raider - three, Base Ship Hybrid - four, Resurrection Ship Hybrid - five. There. Five. Sheesh, you'd think walking toasters would learn to count for fuck's sake."

But until that day, they should stop calling them the 'final 5'. If it were 2 left then fine, you can have a 'final 2'. But you don't call 5 out of 12 the final anything. There's only 7 of you so far, 5 more is almost as many again, it's the 'other' 5 at best.

[Xerapis]

That's precisely why I prefer to refer to them as the "Fab 5".  I think it has the appropriate amount of mockery in it.

Yeah, season 3 has kinda..bit..overall.  Escape from New Caprica was awesome, but only bits and pieces since then have been worth watching.

But at least Starbuck is dead.  That made me happy :D

[Kitsune]

Starbuck is entirely not dead.  Mark my words, that nebula she got blowed up in is going to wind up being the home of the godlike beings of the Galactica mythos, who zapped her off to safety.  Shit will hit the fans, big battle, and it'll be broken up by the arrival of these Vorlon-esque guys with Starbuck in tow.

Alternately, she's a Cylon and wakes up in the slime bathtub.