Battlestar Galactica (spoilers/speculation)

[Samwise]

I know there are other BSG fans on here -- why no dedicated thread?




So, after watching the most recent episode, I have observed something.

1) There are five "missing" Cylon models.  At least one of whom is someone Deanna recognized.
2) There are five "humans" we have seen that have had mysterious "supernatural" visions or intuitions:
 - Baltar
 - Roslin
 - Starbuck
 - Chief Tyrol
 - The fortune teller on New Caprica

Coincidence?

[tazelbain]

I really wanted Admiral Adama to be a cylon, but it seems less likely as time goes on.
My new fav pick for cylon is Gata. He's distant from the others, acts in the uptight manor, and he had to outsmart Baltar and the Cylons to give intel to the resistance.  D'anna had known Gata.

And I want the next one to actually know that they are a Cylon.  None of that sleeper shit. ok? thx.

[Viin]

Yah, I'm a fan. :)

I'm not sure what the 5 'final' Cylons is really about, I assume there will be more on that soon. I was thinking that maybe that there was only suppose to be 5 of the 9 'humanized' Cylons left after some.. thing. Some kinda prophecy thingy again I bet.

??

[Evil Elvis]

There's alot of talk that Cally is one of them.  A closeup from one of the stills of the five looks somewhat like her.  It also makes Tyrol beating the crap out of her more profound.

[Margalis]

I think it would be rather silly if any more of the major characters turned out to be a Cylon. I mean there are 12 models total, logically aren't the chances 99.99% that they are all random jobbers of no importance?

[Samwise]

Not if they all have subconscious drives to get themselves into key positions in the government/military and superhuman abilities and/or subtle Cylon influences to help them do it.

My thinking is that all of the "prophecy" and "destiny" stuff is interwoven with some sort of Cylon master plan that even the Cylons don't really know about at a conscious level (just like, say, Boomer didn't know that she was going to shoot Adama).  And that the final five are going to be the catalyst that sets it in motion.

[Triforcer]

It would be even cooler if a Cylon discovered they were human, and then discovered they were a ghost. 

[Roac]

What is interesting about the missing models is that the existing Cylons seem to know next to nothing about them.  They also made reference to "the one who programmed us", who I'd assume they equate to the Cylon God, although they didn't make that clear.  It makes me wonder though, what sort of relationship they have with their creator?  Enough of one to know there are 12 models (to coincide with the 12 colonies somehow, I'm sure), but not enough to have met them.  More confusing is the age involved here.  The 'human' Cylons are only a few years old. 

Supposedly, the toaster Cylons were kicked out of the colonies at the conclusion of the war and sent to wander.  They came upon some planet with some sort of incredible intelligence that in turn created human models for the refugee toasters, who in turn became the leadership.  What did the previous Cylon leadership look like?  Was it overthrown?  The nonhuman Cylons appear to have little to nothing in the way of intelligence.  The best that has been said about them are the ships which are treated like pets, but that doesn't give much indication of intelligence or leadership.  So how much in common with the toasters do the human-Cylons have?

Not very much, in light of this temple.  Supposedly built by the 13th colony - the one that was headed for Earth many, MANY years ago.  Yet, this temple hosted technology that could reveal the faces of the other 5 Cylons.  Wait a minute, Cylons didn't even *exist* this far back.  Not in any form, toaster or not.  So how would the 13th colony know anything about human Cylons, or for that matter, that anyone would be standing in the temple 4000 years later?

There's no real reason to expect that the 13th colony would be much different from the other 12.  They were all leaving their homeworld, and we think were all part of the same society.  So why did this one group have insight the others seemingly did not?  There's a much bigger plot moving around besides Humans vs Cylons that includes both.  My guess?  The Lords of Kobol had something to do with it, and one of the Lords went with the 13th colony.  And that Lord is now known as God by the Cylons.

As for trying to peg who is one of the five, that becomes near impossible.  The trick used to be, try to figure out what someone's history was with the colonies.  So long as they went back far enough or had children, you could rule them out.  The first guideline doesn't work at all anymore, although the second might.  If hybrid children are this big a deal, then it probably hasn't occurred with the five either, which would rule out Adama.  Same would apply to Chief.  None of the other that Samwise mentioned had kids that I know of, so maybe they can be considered. 

[Samwise]

Good point on the Chief having a kid.  I'd forgotten about that entirely somehow, and that does put a bit of a wrench in the theory of him being a Cylon.  It's not ruled out entirely, though.  The rule that they seem to have is that Cylons can only conceive children with humans if they're in love, which is why whatsisface kept trying to win Starbuck over, and why Athena and Helo could have a kid.  So the Chief and Cally could have conceived a child under the same rule.

We also don't know if the final five are all that similar to the known models; one gets the distinct impression that they're somehow superior to the others.  That could mean that they don't have the same biological restrictions.

I don't think there's any way in hell that either Adama is a Cylon.  Too much history to manufacture. 

[Merusk]

Part of me feels the model Deanna recognized was Saul.  She apologised to it, and I couldn't think of anyone else she had a reason to apologize to other than Saul for taking his eye.

However, I only started watching in the last season and a half, so I have no idea if there's something in the past that rules this out.

[Ironwood]

  What did the previous Cylon leadership look like? 

[Riggswolfe]

Not very much, in light of this temple.  Supposedly built by the 13th colony - the one that was headed for Earth many, MANY years ago.  Yet, this temple hosted technology that could reveal the faces of the other 5 Cylons.  Wait a minute, Cylons didn't even *exist* this far back.  Not in any form, toaster or not.  So how would the 13th colony know anything about human Cylons, or for that matter, that anyone would be standing in the temple 4000 years later?

Actually, they may have. There has been reference in the series to "this has all happened before and will happen again." I believe a cylon said it to Starbuck or Roslin, though I can't remember for sure. At the time I took this to be a way of saying that the original series actually existed and happened. The question at this point is how many times it has all happened before and was there only one 13th tribe? Is it only the other 12 locked in this cycle for some reason?

[Lantyssa]

We also don't know if the final five are all that similar to the known models; one gets the distinct impression that they're somehow superior to the others.  That could mean that they don't have the same biological restrictions.

My guess, having not much to go on, is that they disagreed with the direction the cylon race was taking.  Whether separately or deciding as a whole I cannot say.

Since the seven were interested in the complete eradication of the humans, I would think the hidden five either supported peace, integration, or leaving the humans alone.  Given the latter doesn't make for much of an interesting story, I imagine some decided to live amongst and become part of the humans.

A different idea is that they left seeking the 13th colony, knowing they would harbor no direct grudges against them.  The seven could be interested in earth because they see the five as paving the way for a new beginning.  A few of the five could have remained behind to help the humans of the twelve colonies either find their way or to aid in some way against their eradication.

[Sairon]

I think the other 5 are on the 13th colony, and that when the series finally reaches earth a whole new story arc will begin. I hope the series pick up more on baltars little mind game some more soon, I love it. The episode where baltar tries to find out if he has something in his head or if he's just going crazy is golden  :-D

[Lantyssa]

I loved when Caprica woke up and she had her own Baltar.

[Evil Elvis]

I thought todays ep was the best I've seen since season 1. 

I'm glad they finally put a nail in the is-Baltar-a-Cylon question.  I don't think anyone really believed they'd really go in that direction.

[Riggswolfe]

I thought todays ep was the best I've seen since season 1. 

I'm glad they finally put a nail in the is-Baltar-a-Cylon question.  I don't think anyone really believed they'd really go in that direction.

I thought it was a good ep but also very disturbing. I actually felt sympathy for Baltar and even Roslin looked uncomfortable at times.

[Furiously]

Just wanted to add - it can't be Ty. He was in the first war with Adama and they didn't have human models then.

Starbuck makes some sense.

Gaita or Dee would be my guess.  Although...Someone from Pegasus would be a great twist.

[Riggswolfe]

Just wanted to add - it can't be Ty. He was in the first war with Adama and they didn't have human models then.

Starbuck makes some sense.

Gaita or Dee would be my guess.  Although...Someone from Pegasus would be a great twist.

If you're guessing who might be the final 5 I don't think it is anyone we've seen yet, with maybe one exception. I think they are mostly behind the scenes and will be new characters revealed in the future. I'm not 100% convinced that Deanna actually recognized one of them, I think her "I had no idea, I'm sorry." dialogue referred to something else, like her having the gall to try to see them when she wasn't the one intended to do so.

[Lum]

No, it was pretty obviously shock of recognition. Most fan sites are speculating it's Anders, because (a) there was the extended sequence between Three and Anders in "Downloaded" and (b) most posters on those sites are female and hot for Anders.

It's not going to be Starbuck. Spoilers for the next couple of episodes have conclusively ruled that out. Spoiler: In "Maelstrom", the actress is leaving the series... the hints are that she won't die, but "something" else happens to her. My guess is brain damage. They won't end the Final Five speculation that soon, though.

Personally, I pick Doc Cottell. Three had a scene where she tried to screw with his head on New Caprica. And he's different enough from everyone else that it fits.

[Evil Elvis]

Does anyone have a good reason as to why Leoben is special enough to have his own name?

[Lum]

The only Cylon that has a name is Caprica Six, the Six that manipulated Baltar into introducing the virus into Colonial defense mainframes that won the war. This is a key plot point and the writers went to great lengths that she was the ONLY Cylon with a name - that Caprica Six was a Hero of the Cylon and thus had influence as an individual, which is usually heresy with the Cylons, and convinced them to occupy New Caprica instead of nuking it to bits. It's also a shout out to internet discussion groups that all referred to her as "Caprica Six" as opposed to "Baltar Head Six" or whatever.

"Leoben Conoy" is the name used by that model (his number's never been revealed I don't think) that he went by when he was undercover with the human fleet. Especially since he never got an official number from the writers, the Cylons just refer to him as Leoben, usually (but annoyingly not always) with the caveat "the one you humans refer to as Leoben" or such like.

http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Leoben_Conoy

[Riggswolfe]

In reply to Lum's Spoiler: my guess is that something similiar to what happened to the original Starbuck will happen. The only problem being all the recent destiny stuff that has come up.

As for the rest of it, I still don't think any character we've yet seen will be revealed as one of the final five. The only one I suspected at all was Baltar.

I also find myself increasingly fascinated by the cylons as the show goes on especially the ones that are becoming more humanized: Sharon Agathon and Caprica Six among them. I am very curious as to what will happen to Caprica now that she's on Galatica. I see three alternatives:

1) She's airlocked by Roslin or Tigh at some point.
2) She defects much in the manner of Sharon and probably helps bring down Baltar in the process. (scorned woman and all that.)
3) She helps Baltar escape in some manner, probably by appealing to Sharon's empathy.

[Evil Elvis]

The only Cylon that has a name is Caprica Six, the Six that manipulated Baltar into introducing the virus into Colonial defense mainframes that won the war. This is a key plot point and the writers went to great lengths that she was the ONLY Cylon with a name - that Caprica Six was a Hero of the Cylon and thus had influence as an individual, which is usually heresy with the Cylons, and convinced them to occupy New Caprica instead of nuking it to bits. It's also a shout out to internet discussion groups that all referred to her as "Caprica Six" as opposed to "Baltar Head Six" or whatever.

"Leoben Conoy" is the name used by that model (his number's never been revealed I don't think) that he went by when he was undercover with the human fleet. Especially since he never got an official number from the writers, the Cylons just refer to him as Leoben, usually (but annoyingly not always) with the caveat "the one you humans refer to as Leoben" or such like.

http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Leoben_Conoy

Yeah, I know all that :)

I was just wondering why the Cylon's continued to refer to him by that name.  I was wondering if there was something to it, or if its just for the viewers sake.

[Lum]

Lazy writing/for the viewer's sake, mostly. It's difficult to communicate how hive minds "talk" in a dramatic context. Maybe they'd wiggle RNA strands meaningfully or something.

The Cylon storyline is interesting, especially now that the heavy handed New Caprica OMG IT IS JUST LIKE IRAQ allegories are over and they can get back to going all wacky religious on us. I suspect Caprica Six will try to worm her way into Rosslyn's confidences, perhaps cheered on by a Head-Baltar. Or if they really want to go into a dark place, Galactica may start torturing her. Hey look, Gina's back.

Maybe Head-Baltar and Head-Six can hook up sometime, they're made for each other.

I think I have a pretty good sense of where the rest of the season is going (climactic "Eichmann Trial" of Baltar, with Lee Adama for the defense) but have been surprised before, which is one reason I like the show. And I haven't a clue where they're going with the Final Five stuff.

Ron Moore said he'd like the show to have a five year run, so in 2 years I'd expect Galactica to make it to Earth and something twisted and wrong happened. Maybe a nuclear holocaust, or caveman running around an ice age, or Cylons waving Howdy from Assimilated New York.

As for the spoiler response: the new series doesn't always follow the old. Look how long Pegasus hung around.

[Ironwood]

But it suffered much the same fate, even if prolonged.

As far as I can see, the whole thing follows the original, er, 'flow' a lot more than most people think.  I'm still waiting for Count Iblis to turn up. 

[Riggswolfe]

The Cylon storyline is interesting, especially now that the heavy handed New Caprica OMG IT IS JUST LIKE IRAQ allegories are over and they can get back to going all wacky religious on us. I suspect Caprica Six will try to worm her way into Rosslyn's confidences, perhaps cheered on by a Head-Baltar. Or if they really want to go into a dark place, Galactica may start torturing her. Hey look, Gina's back.

I don't think the last option has any chance of happening thankfully.

I think I have a pretty good sense of where the rest of the season is going (climactic "Eichmann Trial" of Baltar, with Lee Adama for the defense) but have been surprised before, which is one reason I like the show. And I haven't a clue where they're going with the Final Five stuff.

I agree for the most part. My latest theory on the final five, given that they aren't talked about is that they are cylon exiles, perhaps they were against the war and exiled? If so, that ups the chances of some of them being on Galactica and being key players.

As for the spoiler response: the new series doesn't always follow the old. Look how long Pegasus hung around.

Agreed, however, given that we've seen homages before I just think it's possible this might be yet another.

[Ironwood]

We've yet to see the Daneel or Data Cylon models.  You know they're out there.

[Riggswolfe]

Another thought I just had: Lum's wiki link (thanks for that BTW, wasted like 3 hours surfing it last night!) mentions that Ron Moore has said each Cylon model is a core human stereotype

The twelve models are based on on archetypes determined by the Cylons that form what they perceive were the specific kinds of human behavior and/or personality, distilled into twelve varieties.

So far we have:

Six: Seductress
Leoben: religious fanatic - very much an antichrist figure with his half-lies
Sharon: saboteur/Military - Love to Six's lust
Deanna: manipulator
Cavil (It's evil Al man!): Cynical atheist (he's the f13 poster of the Cylon models)
Five (the PR guy from the miniseries): propaganda artists, fanatic about Cylon dogma
Simon (the black doctor): intellectual

So maybe if we can figure out what archetypes are left we can make an educated guess about the other 5 cylon models.

[Furiously]

The cook! They should get Steven Segal to play this one.

[Riggswolfe]

The cook! They should get Steven Segal to play this one.

Well, we haven't seen a fat past his prime wannabe Cylon yet. So that works.

[Tannhauser]

Baltar is the chosen of humanity and Caprica Six is the chosen of the Cylon race.  Baltar is chosen because he is the lowest of the low, a human who would betray his entire race for a romp in the sack.  Six for breaking up the collective with her individuality and empathy, weakening the machine race.

Both have 'whisperers' in their heads, urging them on.  Notice how Head Six almost always wears red.  Notice how the 'whisperers' constantly urge chaos.  I think god is real and he's the 

Oh and Hera is the anti-christ, so to speak.

[Roac]

My take is that I think it's no coincidence to have 12 colonies, 12 Cylon models, and 12 Olympian gods (the basis for the Lords of Kobol).  Oh, and a 13th tribe.  If the writers are following mythology, I would say that the Cylon god is Hades/Pluto.  Being able to resurrect would be a power you might assossiate with a god of the dead anyway, and could make a play into why Cylons are sterile. 

[Lum]

Both have 'whisperers' in their heads, urging them on.  Notice how Head Six almost always wears red.  Notice how the 'whisperers' constantly urge chaos.  I think god is real and he's the 

The original series did have a devil (Count Iblis), but Ron Moore's been quoted as saying he wasn't too fond of that storyline and we won't be seeing it in this version. However, your analogy actually gets more interesting when you realize that Head Baltar is actually a force of order (he appealed to Six's conscience about the Caprica genocide, encouraged her to love, and in general looked far more clean cut than the real Baltar ever does).

[Nevermore]

My take is that I think it's no coincidence to have 12 colonies, 12 Cylon models, and 12 Olympian gods (the basis for the Lords of Kobol).  Oh, and a 13th tribe.  If the writers are following mythology, I would say that the Cylon god is Hades/Pluto.  Being able to resurrect would be a power you might assossiate with a god of the dead anyway, and could make a play into why Cylons are sterile. 

My take on it was that while the colonists follow the 12 Olympian gods, the Cylons always referred to a singular God which I took as a Judeo-Christian-type god.  Which would make the 12 Cylon models analogous to the 12 apostles.