Will one of you MMOG gurus please explain to me ....

[Kamen]

why there isn't a "American Wild West" themed MMOG?  I am only a gamer - a user - but it seems to me that a MMOG set in the American west of the 1800's would lend itself nicely to people who enjoy exploring, crafting, running a store, PvP, etc.  Not everything has have elves in it does it?  Is there some sort of fundamental problem with wild west genre that I am unaware of?

Perhaps one is under development that I am unaware of?

Thanks.

[Baldrake]

I don't know if this was a subtle way of shilling, but here you go.

EDIT: Not that they're too far along. The "careers" section lists "Seeking a professional with experience pitching and selling a concept. This person should have cut at least one big deal in the past."

[shiznitz]

I wanna kill Injuns!

That is probably a major reason right there. You know, same reason there is no SimPlantation ca. 1825. No matter how hard a development tries to be historically accurate, investors are not going to get comfortable with the potential player response.

[Kamen]

I don't know if this was a subtle way of shilling, but here you go.

No, it certainly isn't.  I'm just a catass Eve gamer wondering why this genre was being ignored (guess it isn't).  Thanks for the link, I'll look it over.

[Nebu]

I know of Frontier 1859 being in development.  Also, there is Bang Howdy, but it's more like puzzle pirates than the typical diku clone.

Edit: You guys type faster than I do!

[Azaroth]

Trying to figure out itemization for a wild west mmo makes my head hurt. Silver bullets for wild west werewolves? Gold bullets for... uh... fuck it... DRAGONS. You probably couldn't do Diku, unless you just found names for "Six Shooter", "Better Six Shooter" and "Wow UBER Six Shooter".

I think the real problem is that it's hard enough to make one of these things profitable in the first place, and most people want elves. Some want pew pew lasers and space. The odd person ends up wanting a wild west world to play in, but if it ever happened, it'd probably be an indie venture. See PotBS.

Preemptive edit: Or Frontier 1859. There we are.

[Stephen Zepp]

I know of Frontier 1859 being in development.  Also, there is Bang Howdy, but it's more like puzzle pirates than the typical diku clone.

Edit: You guys type faster than I do!

I know of at least one indie project going this direction as well, but they aren't really interested/ready for publicity yet.

The main problem is of course what was already mentioned...any time you start using historical settings, you get historical baggage as well. No one is able to get lesiglation passed against a game where you kill orcs (at least not yet anyway), but when you are killing injuns, or whipping slaves, or things along those lines, it's a lot harder.

Interestingly, I haven't seen a lot of ACLU lash back at games that do pit you against real world foes, so maybe I'm being over-pessimistic.

[tazelbain]

Deadlands ftw.

Plan Jane old west seems very boring to me especially with no death.

[Baldrake]

Found another one. Wild West Sim (wow, what a title) claims to be starting closed beta this summer. The web site is... sparse.

I think ultimately, the issue is that developers who have any money prefer to go with a proven theme. So far, the only kind of MMORPG that has made it big has been fantasy-themed. There are some decent also-rans in the superhero and space genres, but that's about it. Like Azaroth said, this is the domain of indy publishers, and for the most part, indy publishers struggle in the MMOG space because of the resources required to put one together.

[Stephen Zepp]

Found another one. Wild West Sim (wow, what a title) claims to be starting closed beta this summer. The web site is... sparse.

I think ultimately, the issue is that developers who have any money prefer to go with a proven theme. So far, the only kind of MMORPG that has made it big has been fantasy-themed. There are some decent also-rans in the superhero and space genres, but that's about it. Like Azaroth said, this is the domain of indy publishers, and for the most part, indy publishers struggle in the MMOG space because of the resources required to put one together.

I will tell you this, WW setting has at least last year been considered very sexy, but also very dangerous....kinda like that high class call girl you see in the hotel. You know you want her, but you're really not sure she's worth the risk.

I've heard quite a few drunk developer conversations at conventions mentioning how cool it would be to have a WW setting.

[Surlyboi]

Cowboys and Indians? PVP goes old skool.

[Nija]

There was a game called "Priest" that fell off the radar a few years ago.

http://pc.ign.com/objects/550/550044.html

It was to be a 3rd person twitch MMO, so who knows. The devs probably gave up after playing WOW beta.

[Falconeer]

Yeah, Priest came straight from a Korean comic (a "mahnwa" IIRC). But it wasn't a true wild west setting, just the usual dystopian/fantasy eastern thing, with undead, ghouls, werewolves and giant spiders. Wondering if it ever came out at least in Korea or it actually sunk for good.

[tazelbain]

Oh, yeah. The Civil War was a stale-mate in Deadlands.  That opens a whole lot politically incorrect goodness.

[stray]

There was once a time where I cared about this subject a lot, but.....

Well, nevermind.

Yeah, Deadlands is a good fit that helps avoid any historical/political pitfalls. And at the same time, it includes MMORPG staples (that people simply must have for whatever reason) such as magic.

You probably couldn't do Diku, unless you just found names for "Six Shooter", "Better Six Shooter" and "Wow UBER Six Shooter".

That's like saying melee weapons must be called "Battleaxe", "Spear", "Rapier", and "Broadsword".

Real Wild West guns had names like "Widowmaker" and "Peacemaker".

Sky's the limit as far as creating other names: The Raven, the Seraph, Paladin, Big Bertha, Bulldog, Speedmetal...

"We call this piece the Fecalator. One look at it and the target shits him or herself."

[Nebu]

Am I the only one old enough to remember playing Boot Hill?  I should think the P&P game in conjunction with the BioOne expansion (bullet location and bleeding factors) would make for a great PvP world.  

Drops would include guns, clothing, holsters, boots, and perhaps even horses could be gained/lost.  If you look at the mechanics of Boot Hill, they gave skill points for gunfight kills that could be used toward accuracy, speed, courage, etc.  I think done right, it would be an incredible open PvP game.  Own a shop, play sherrif, be part of a lynch mob, collect bounties, rob a bank or train... it's endless.

[Azaroth]

Yeah, that's true. I thought about that after I posted. I suppose the only problem would have to do with realism and differentiating the guns at a distance. Ie the "wow I'm kewler" effect. I'm sure some creative art fixes that problem too, but the last thing you need is red, glowing pew pew six shooters.

[Bunk]

Did anyone else notice that the reply came four and half minutes after the first post, from two guys whose total post count is around 60? Oh well, that being said, a Deadwood type MMoG could be fun I guess. It would be a decent setting for smaller scale, non diku styled MMoG. Preferably a shooter/MMoG hybrid really.

[Krakrok]

There is a colonial+wild west RTS called No Man's Land which I thought was fun.

Also Brisco County Jr. is out on DVD. Netflix ftw.

And Bang Howdy which was already mentioned is semi fun if you can stand the turn based movement aspect.

[rk47]

*puts on feather hats and his tomahawk*
awoo wooo woo woo woo woooo 

errr did i do that right? i'm asian btw :P

[hal]

The real problem with cowboys and Indians is its the worst story of human genocide in recorded history. A gunpower society took down a stone age society. YAY Team!! It is a really sad chapter. Why did they do it? Because they could.

[Venkman]

Yeah, Priest came straight from a Korean comic (a "mahnwa" IIRC). But it wasn't a true wild west setting, just the usual dystopian/fantasy eastern thing, with undead, ghouls, werewolves and giant spiders. Wondering if it ever came out at least in Korea or it actually sunk for good.

I saw this only once, ever, at E3 2004, and the build they had playable then was fairly compelling: Indian Shaman versus American frontiersmen. Spells vs guns with a console-like combat feel to it. The whole world was public-space zoned, and you could control zones (eventually, wasn't coded in that build). I played it in Kentia Hall, itself a clue into its future.

To the original question: Aside from the ones mentioned is Bang Howdy from the guys who made Puzzle Pirates.

[Strazos]

*puts on feather hats and his tomahawk*
awoo wooo woo woo woo woooo 

errr did i do that right? i'm asian btw :P

Just for reference, if you ever do that in the physical presence of a real American Indian, don't be surprised if you get your ass kicked.

[pxib]

If Virtual Worlds had proven as well-stocked a goldmine as MMOGs, which is to say Games, we'd have a wild west one by now. It turns out that it's hard to make the gameplay for a dancer, doctor, shopkeeper, or drunk particularly exciting and rewarding. The remaining option: Cowboy DIKU.

You could be an outlaw or a rogue lawman, but they'd have functionally identical stats and abilities. After you'd gone out into the desert and killed 4,000 rattlesnakes, 16,000 wildcats, and 40,000 rabbits you could level your marksmanship and stealth to the point that you could risk the instanced missions wherein you either robbed stagecoaches or infiltrated nefarious hideouts. You could also hang around in the bar and play cards for imaginary money for only fifteen real dollars a month.

As a Prospector you might have the ability to go pan for gold or dig for silver, hoping to strike it rich. This would involve uncountable hours of watching a progress bar. If you succeeded, you'll have to be able to survive the gauntlet of bored outlaws and bored lawmen eager to steal or tax the proceeds of your grind. I recommend killing at least 30,000 rabbits just to make sure your shotgun skill is up to snuff.

Gosh I'm getting excited. Authentic 19th century American adventure!!

Cowboy Virtual World might be fun too, but nobody will make it.

[Kamen]

Thanks for all the leads guys, I'll look things over in depth but at first blush it seems most everything is in the concept stage with a lot of "OMG we will have the PC police WTFPWNing us" hand wringing.  You guys also seem to have one or two tinfoil hat posters here don't you?  Like I said, I'm just a dumbassed gamer and just would like to see some sort of wild west oriented MMOG.  So, FWIW:

Diku?  Uhh no.  Wait, let's make that HELL NO.

Magic in the wild west?   Make people who select to be Native Americans better at some tasks/skills but let's try and stay from being "magic".

Slavery?  Ignore it.  Don't incorporate anything related to it.  What could possibly be fun about that crap anyway?

Confict?  Hell yeah, and plenty of it!  Some great guilds are possible:  Various Indian tribes, The U.S. Army, Outlaws, Mexicans, etc.  I really think you guys might be overly worried about the PC police.  JMO, but can't you can be historically based without being historically accurate?  Letting guilds control areas gives the catasses something to sink their teeth into.

Maybe I'm just simplistic, I want heavy crafting (farming, mining, stores, etc) with plenty of non-consentual PvP available such asstreet gun fights, bar fights, range wars, bank robbing, etc. Couple this with the ability of guilds to control land and you have Eve (my game) in the wild west.  Is that historically accurate?  No, but it's historically based, and I bet it could be fun.

[CmdrSlack]

Did anyone else notice that the reply came four and half minutes after the first post, from two guys whose total post count is around 60?

LOL.  Baldrake is part of my weekly gaming group.  I highly doubt he's a mole.  If he's a mole, all that time he spent writing at Grimwell.com before it shut down the first time was an AWESOME cover.   

On topic, I think Deadlands would rock, but I'm afraid that it's just close enough to the Gunslinger books to see tons of people with the Raistlin effect in character naming.  I do think that a steampunk wild west MMO would rock.  I know I'd dig it.  The only MMO I've played that even had guns was SWG and, well, we know how that one turned out.

ETA -- As long as it doesn't end up being an Oregon Trail MMO, that'd be huge.  Although Oregon Trail would be rad with permadeath...everyone would die to typhoid somewhere around Kansas.

[pxib]

Maybe I'm just simplistic, I want heavy crafting (farming, mining, stores, etc) with plenty of non-consentual PvP available such asstreet gun fights, bar fights, range wars, bank robbing, etc. Couple this with the ability of guilds to control land and you have Eve (my game) in the wild west.  Is that historically accurate?  No, but it's historically based, and I bet it could be fun.

EVE has magic, in the Arthur C. Clarke sense. It has mages, pets, DPS, tanks, and healers... only they're ships instead of classes, and you can change skill-sets by stopping by a station. You don't grind experience, you grind cash and resources. Not DIKU exactly, but not far removed. You're talking about a world, and as fun as virtual worlds seem when you imagine them, they don't excite that same sort of thrill during most actual play.

Nobody other than Puzzle Pirates has made heavy crafting fun. Running a store is only fun if you have a rare commodity people want. 90% of shopkeepers will have the same things as everybody else. Street gun fights, bar fights, and bank robbing are supposed to be rare events. No more than once an hour, I hope. They're exciting because they're rare. Once people realize they're the only fun thing the game has to offer, they're all people will want to do. Walking into an open-PVP town to get something to drink at a bar will be like strolling through a zombie movie where the zombies not only want your flesh, they have guns.

I'm not saying somebody won't surprise me and produce the perfect Old West MMORPG (because you're definately interested in the RP, yes?), but I would still be surprised.

[Kamen]

All very good point's.  I'll think on them, although I have never considered myself a RP'er I see your point.

Regards

[Velorath]

I think part of the problem with doing a Western MMO would be getting combat right.  When you think of Westerns you think of quick-draws and one-shot kills which aren't easily translated into MMO's, thanks in part to latency.

[Hoax]

Nail meet coffin.

Nice work Velorath.

Shooter combat just doesn't translate well to MMOG's unless you are going some kind of sci-fi route so you can explain why you have to shoot something 20 times before it dies.  But if there is a setting that brings out the more cut-throat pvp+ crowd I would imagine the wild west is that setting.  So now we have a real problem.  Unless you are going to make a MMO that not only operates in a totally untested setting.  It also overcomes the whole making pvp not suck balls problem that every other developer who has tried to make pvp an integral part of their gameplay has encountered.

When a massive multiplayer game that gives pvp much more then the lip-service of WoW hits A+ moneyhat status I expect we'll see a Wild West MMO announced within a year.  In the time honored tradition of making wild claims from no position of authority on the internet that is.

[tkinnun0]

As a European, Indians vs Cowboys doesn't have that much appeal to me. Luckily our history has something similar. I just wonder why no-one has made Nazis vs. Jews MMOG yet? The setting is perfect for all kinds of PVP. As a Nazi, you could kill Jews, take their property and advance your career in SS or other organizations. As a Jew, you could amass Nazi money, gather Nazi blood for your rituals and prepare your world domination.

That would be rad.

[garthilk]

Not only that I'm not sure about the marketability of a wild west MMO. How would it play in Asia?

[Falconeer]

Not only that I'm not sure about the marketability of a wild west MMO. How would it play in Asia?

They have shitloads of wildwest themed or inspired anime and manga, so I guess it could work.

[Evangolis]

I'll second Velorath on the mechanics issue, and follow on with the way the setting cries out for hardcore PvP.  Oneshot permadeath PvP gameplay, hmmmm.

Ignore slavery?  Not much of a Wild West without the Buffalo Soldiers.  And Confederate Renegades.  You going to leave Jesse James out too?  If you use a historic setting, you need to confront the historic dilemmas, otherwise you'd be better off doing a Trigun MMO.

[Riggswolfe]

Maybe the proposed Firefly MMO will come close to this since Firefly is a western in space.