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Author Topic: "Buy your own shitty MMO" or "Dorkfall for sale?"  (Read 44174 times)
LC
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on: January 19, 2007, 12:21:42 PM

Some guy PMed this to me on Dorkfall's forums. There's no way to prove or disprove what he says, but it does make sense.

Quote
Hello

I was browsing these boards and saw the latest fuss about this Jan update thing. They seem to have conveniently left out a few details from that "update".
I'll clue you in on what is really going on with this darkfall project.

I had worked as a webmaster for a few months late last year for the mmog Thrones of Chaos. I left just before x-mas because I'll be starting work soon in a different field and need to relocate for it.

They were contacted by two companies last year who were looking to snap up a mmorpg project.
Most likely because of all the success games like World of Warcraft have shown. They were entertaining the possibility of selling if the deals were right.

From what I was told there is a mmorpg project called darkfall that was being offered for sale not so long ago. One of the same companies that approached Thrones of Chaos seeking aquisition had mentioned some back up choices and darkfall was one of them.

However after they evaluated it they had said that they were hesitant to move forward with that particular one as there was not much done with it.

They seemed desperate to sell. They even lowered their asking price down to basically peanuts when they found out the buyer was no longer interested and was set on moving ahead with Thrones instead.

That deal may go through now though since there really isn't many more choices out there and from what I was told Thrones was no longer selling to that particular company and took a completely different deal instead.

You can add me on MSN: removed@something.com
If you would like to know more before I leave.

Later
Aaron

I'm assuming he wasn't under an NDA or anything.
stray
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Reply #1 on: January 19, 2007, 12:23:46 PM

What the hell would be for sale? A disc full of manufactured renderings and concept art? Maybe a "feature_list.doc"?
Soln
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Reply #2 on: January 19, 2007, 12:26:00 PM

custom libs, source, incomplete stuff

any licensing deals they had I wonder?
Azaroth
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Reply #3 on: January 19, 2007, 12:27:57 PM

Is this a random PM, or someone you know pretty well?

If it's a random PM, I'll chalk it up to griefing until further notice.

F  is inviting you to start Quarto. Do you want to Accept (Alt+C) or Decline (Alt+D) the invitation?
 
  You have accepted the invitation to start Quarto.
 
F  says:
don't know what this is
Az  says:
I think it's like
Az  says:
where we pour milk on the stomach alien from total recall
LC
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Reply #4 on: January 19, 2007, 12:31:49 PM

My guess is:

Concept art
Various art and 3d models used for screenshots
A basic 3d engine
A vBulletin License
A few thousand delusional fanboys
Signe
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Reply #5 on: January 19, 2007, 12:37:15 PM

I wouldn't doubt this a bit.  Darkfall, Thrones of Chaos / Mourning, Dark and Light, Atriarch, and a bunch more.  I don't think these are going anywhere and some of them are outright scams.

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Soln
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the opportunity for evil is just delicious


Reply #6 on: January 19, 2007, 12:42:34 PM

you forgot Wish
slog
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Reply #7 on: January 19, 2007, 01:20:06 PM

So a couple of investors looking to do a quick cash in after watching WoW make billions check out buying a smaller game and realize that it's not as easy as it looks to make Money Hats inthe world of MMORPGS.

Nothing to see here.

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Signe
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Reply #8 on: January 19, 2007, 01:36:47 PM

I think Wish was different.  They seemed to get a lot done.  Berry picking, wood chopping, goat on goat action.  They went into beta and then it was like they suddenly got scared, shouted, "WE CAN'T DO THIS", and ran off.  It was weird and wee bit sad.

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Azaroth
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Reply #9 on: January 19, 2007, 01:40:51 PM

Yeah, that one seemed weird. I think they ran out of money and saw people leaving in droves over the connectivity issues and closed up shop.


F  is inviting you to start Quarto. Do you want to Accept (Alt+C) or Decline (Alt+D) the invitation?
 
  You have accepted the invitation to start Quarto.
 
F  says:
don't know what this is
Az  says:
I think it's like
Az  says:
where we pour milk on the stomach alien from total recall
tazelbain
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Reply #10 on: January 19, 2007, 02:00:03 PM

I was in the beta(well done tech demo) when they closed up.  It didn't seemed to have an technical problems.  Basicly, they created this platform to host a massive world.  I think they panicked when they realized how expensive it would be to fill that world with custom content.  I personally would have shifted my plans to explore player-made and dynamic content rather than despair that I couldn't fill every inch of North America with hand-made quests.

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Lantyssa
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Reply #11 on: January 19, 2007, 02:53:30 PM

I cannot be sure what went on with Wish.  There were places it needed improvement, but I was having fun during the beta, and not finding a lot of bugs.

Their claim was that they ran the numbers and would never be profitable.  A week later their server was on e-bay and that was the end.

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
Baldrake
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Reply #12 on: January 19, 2007, 03:52:04 PM

Mourning/Thrones of Chaos is one I've followed on and off through its various incarnations. I actually beta-tested it a few years ago. It looked to me like a nice successor to UO. And the artwork is really nice -- not anime, not WoW-style cartoon, but a nice realistic style. But they've had a real struggle to get out the door. I'm hoping for their sake that something eventually comes of it.
Nija
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Reply #13 on: January 19, 2007, 04:40:33 PM

Is this a random PM, or someone you know pretty well?

If it's a random PM, I'll chalk it up to griefing until further notice.

It's a random PM, but LC (and I, before I drifted into outer space) is big on making fun of games like Darkfall and even SB. We hit those SB beta boards hard.

The guy probably messaged LC over the last thread he started, which contained this image:

Azaroth
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Reply #14 on: January 19, 2007, 05:35:39 PM

Ah, okay. That makes sense.

F  is inviting you to start Quarto. Do you want to Accept (Alt+C) or Decline (Alt+D) the invitation?
 
  You have accepted the invitation to start Quarto.
 
F  says:
don't know what this is
Az  says:
I think it's like
Az  says:
where we pour milk on the stomach alien from total recall
LC
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Posts: 908


Reply #15 on: January 19, 2007, 05:53:07 PM

I'm trying to contact him on MSN. He is still offline right now. I will see if he can offer any proof.


I tried accessing the Mourning/RoT/ToC forums for info on this guy, but all I got was this message:

"Forums will remain closed for the time being due to a pending business deal. Thank you for your patience!"

and from the latest dorkfall update:

"The beta development milestone was met early in December. Since then we've had a fully functional and stable beta build up on remote servers, which is being patched regularly. At the moment we're using part of this system to show the game to prospective partners, distributors, publishers, technology providers, etc. Our motivation here is to provide the best quality assurance, distribution, and service for the game and its players, so we consider this to be a very important phase for Darkfall."

A fully functional beta is running, but none of the testers that signed up almost two years ago have been let in? The update sounds more like an advertisement to me.

"Hey we have a working game (engine demo) now. Come buy us out!"
« Last Edit: January 19, 2007, 06:09:38 PM by LC »
KallDrexx
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Reply #16 on: January 19, 2007, 07:28:49 PM

I cannot be sure what went on with Wish.  There were places it needed improvement, but I was having fun during the beta, and not finding a lot of bugs.

Their claim was that they ran the numbers and would never be profitable.  A week later their server was on e-bay and that was the end.

I still can't believe Wish got cancelled, especially since they had a real substantial product (huge land mass already made, totally dynamic quest system working, not too many technical problems, etc..). 

From what  I can tell what did them in was public appearance. 

1) The staggered acceptance of "open beta applicants.'  If you followed the boards at all (I followed the game for quite a while) a lot of people were pissed because they were told it was a one month open beta, but not everyone was able to play from day 1.  A lot of people got pissed even though ti was explained beforehand that this would occur and the reasons why (it was a beta test, they needed to correctly stress test the server). 

2) Server crashes.  While there weren't many, but there were quite a few in the week that the beta was going on, and people saw the crashes, coupled with the fact that not everyone was in the open beta yet (my above paragraph) made idiots go to boards and proclaim how shitty the code was.

3) Point and click.  A lot of people really did not care to take the time to find the advantages that PnC movement can give and instead hated the fact that it wasn't using the normal control scheme.  Also, since PnC does movement totally on server side (i.e. where you are is really where you are, unlike most games these days) the lag was more noticable (even though it was barely bigger then regular games). 

4) The UI.  I didn't mind it so much but the UI wasn't great, and a lot of people couldn't look past it to see the game behind it.  It didn't really mesh well with a fantasy game.

To me, Wish seemed the perfect example of "perception is reality."  With all four of these points people went to boards and bitched about how crappy of a game Wish was, and that news spread like a lot of other gaming news does.  I think the reason why it got cancelled unlike other games is that Wish was still quite early in it's development cycle (had at least another 6+ months of closed beta scheduled before the next open beta) so they could assess if the bad press would be enough to hurt them in the long run.  I also think that Wish was a perfect example of how most players don't treat Betas as an actual beta and instead use it as a pre-release test.  It had it's problems, but it also was at least a half-a-year from release, if not more and I can only wonder if things would have been differently if they didn't use the beta system the way they did (closed, open, closed, open, closed, open).

I still had the most fun (pve wise) in Wish then I have in almost every other game for the dynamic quest stuff.

And back on the original topic, I can't believe the PM is real because he blatantly gives away his position (webmaster of their website).  I can't think of any company out there that lets their employees talk about big internal happenings (hell most of Mythic didn't even know about the EA buyout till it happened because of the inside trading laws) so if he really did work for them, he wouldn't give such an easy way to identify him as the leaker of secrets.  Furthermore, he claims that he worked for Thrones of Chaos but was told by the company who was going to acquire them about their backup choices.  If I was trying to acquire a company I wouldn't tell them what my backup choices were, I'd keep that internal.  Sounds too fishy for me to believe it's real.
schild
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Reply #17 on: January 19, 2007, 08:03:53 PM

They didn't have a substantial fucking product. Wish was a train wreck from day one. Wish got canceled because it was a terrible piece of shit. Claiming otherwise makes you an asshole with bad opinions. Yes, opinions can be and often are, wrong.
HRose
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Reply #18 on: January 19, 2007, 08:23:04 PM

They didn't have a substantial fucking product. Wish was a train wreck from day one. Wish got canceled because it was a terrible piece of shit.
Nope. Wish was surely better than all these other mmorpgs popping occasionally like the one in this thread.

Wish was a solid game already when we got to play it. It worked and was vaguely fun to play even with most mechanics still to be developed. Maybe it was going to be a failure, but as a small MMO it could have worked.

Wish didn't go anywhere because of terrible management and direction, not because the team was clueless. It's really one of the smaller games that actually WORKED in all its essential parts and was playable. Hell, with more money it could have been more solid than Vanguard.

And it also had very nice towns. That kind of mood was never recaptured in any other game.

Then it was ALSO terrible for a number of choices. Like the one-server architecture or point and click movement. But, still, it wasn't vaporware like many other games we hear about nowadays. Just a project that went to shit because of bad management.

Btw, personal opinions aside, Eve-Online for example in beta was in a much worse state if you compare it to what was achieved in Wish beta.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2007, 08:25:17 PM by HRose »

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LC
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Reply #19 on: January 19, 2007, 09:22:29 PM

If Wish was such a great game, then why is it still canceled? Meanwhile someone is buying a game like Thrones of Shit. Does that make sense?
« Last Edit: January 19, 2007, 09:28:06 PM by LC »
Venkman
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Reply #20 on: January 19, 2007, 09:30:19 PM

Wish was cancelled because they got cold feet.

The rest live on because the teams want to sell. Or they have a good product. Or both.
Sparky
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Reply #21 on: January 20, 2007, 12:57:50 PM

Wish had nice crafting and resource collection but their plan for tons of bespoke player driven content always struck me as unrealistic.  Still if a broken piece of shit like Horizons can limp along forever with a few thousand subs I'm sure Wish could've found it's audience.
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Reply #22 on: January 20, 2007, 02:01:48 PM

Some people actually paid money for SEED.  There's a market for everything.

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Reply #23 on: January 20, 2007, 03:57:00 PM

Is this a random PM, or someone you know pretty well?

If it's a random PM, I'll chalk it up to griefing until further notice.

It's a random PM, but LC (and I, before I drifted into outer space) is big on making fun of games like Darkfall and even SB. We hit those SB beta boards hard.

The guy probably messaged LC over the last thread he started, which contained this image:



I'm not sure if I should take that image as a compiment or an insult, but it made me laugh!

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Reply #24 on: January 20, 2007, 04:49:21 PM

I played some Wish for about ten minutes before I got diarrhea of the eyes -- often called eyearrhea, familiar to people that hate brown and mustard-yellow.  When the client crashed, there was a popup window with a coupon code for tromantadine at Walgreen's pharmacy.

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slog
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Reply #25 on: January 20, 2007, 07:32:25 PM

They didn't have a substantial fucking product. Wish was a train wreck from day one. Wish got canceled because it was a terrible piece of shit. Claiming otherwise makes you an asshole with bad opinions. Yes, opinions can be and often are, wrong.

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LC
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Reply #26 on: January 20, 2007, 08:21:10 PM

I'm not sure if I should take that image as a compiment or an insult, but it made me laugh!

Find a nice torque SS, and then compare it to this image. It should be obvious.
rk47
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Reply #27 on: January 20, 2007, 08:56:27 PM

that screenshot made me hungry. looks like melted chocolate walls or something  tongue

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Venkman
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Reply #28 on: January 21, 2007, 01:27:59 PM

I'm not sure if I should take that image as a compiment or an insult, but it made me laugh!

Find a nice torque SS, and then compare it to this image. It should be obvious.
That's more style than graphical quality. Check the details. I think Torque could do as well with a competent artist on a team who knew how to use the thing. Can't speak much for the persistent world abilities of the engine though. Maybe Stephen could?
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Reply #29 on: January 21, 2007, 06:58:51 PM

I'm not sure if I should take that image as a compiment or an insult, but it made me laugh!

Find a nice torque SS, and then compare it to this image. It should be obvious.

Ahh, you mean like the ones posted Here?

Or maybe here?

No, wait...maybe here.

Nah, maybe we'll just settle with something like this.

Oh, and all of the above except for 1 will run at 30+ fps on a computer you bought 3 years ago...

yep, you're right, it IS obvious...it's the art that counts. Anyone can take a great engine and get a game that looks terrible, and not just anyone can take a good engine and make some amazing visual appeal.

Reviewing the image you posted by the way shows some glaring failures in both artwork and technology:

--terribly stretched textures on the bridge he's walking on in the foreground
--no shadowing at all
--completely half-assed sky
--very sloppy character for what should be highest level of detail
--I see at least two probable transparency rendering sort order issues
--flat out terribly modeled trees

I could go on if you like, but if you want to compare a funded project using years to develop a single decent screenshot (and I said decent--personally, I think it's rather weak) against some of the work indie developers can do with NO budget and good artists, I'm not stressed about it in the least :)
« Last Edit: January 21, 2007, 07:05:18 PM by Stephen Zepp »

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LC
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Reply #30 on: January 21, 2007, 08:22:22 PM

Reviewing the image you posted by the way shows some glaring failures in both artwork and technology:

--terribly stretched textures on the bridge he's walking on in the foreground
--no shadowing at all
--completely half-assed sky
--very sloppy character for what should be highest level of detail
--I see at least two probable transparency rendering sort order issues
--flat out terribly modeled trees

I could go on if you like, but if you want to compare a funded project using years to develop a single decent screenshot (and I said decent--personally, I think it's rather weak) against some of the work indie developers can do with NO budget and good artists, I'm not stressed about it in the least :)

The Darkfall project is about seven years old now. My guess is that a bunch of guys locked themselves in an office with a giant stack of "For Dummies" books. The "learn as you go" method didn't work out too well for them. Now they are stuck with a big pile of shit.
Chenghiz
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Reply #31 on: January 21, 2007, 10:36:29 PM

I think LC's point was that much better could be done with a relatively inexpensive alternative to developing a shit-tastic graphics engine like that in-house.
Endie
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Reply #32 on: January 22, 2007, 02:26:48 AM

{...Stephen seems to get a touch offended...}

What I got from the comparison LC made was a compliment to the Torque images and a "he he look what happens if you use the colour swatches from the new faecalphiliacs' 'Brown Around Town' collection for your entire game palette then draw it on screen using the Finger-Painting API" to the other one.  Shouldn't you be happy?

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Stephen Zepp
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Reply #33 on: January 22, 2007, 10:19:33 AM

{...Stephen seems to get a touch offended...}

What I got from the comparison LC made was a compliment to the Torque images and a "he he look what happens if you use the colour swatches from the new faecalphiliacs' 'Brown Around Town' collection for your entire game palette then draw it on screen using the Finger-Painting API" to the other one.  Shouldn't you be happy?

Wasn't really offended, but yes, the second response did appear to be saying that Torque sucked, so I responded in that manner.

Thinking why, it's because the darkfall image posted at first glance does look pretty ok (even with the critiques I posted, it's still not a bad image), yet the one that may have been Torque (the original image) was obviously not with any decent art!

Like I said in my first comment, I wasn't sure if it was meant as a compliment or not ;)

Interestingly, and disclaimer: we don't officially condone this at all, but we had a Torque user export WoW models into our import format and bring them into TGE-Advanced...and in many ways they looked better than the original source art within WoW.

There's no solid way to 100% compare performance settings, scene management, and a host of unqualifiable/measureable factors that go into a scene, but given even median technology it really is the art that counts, not the engine.

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LC
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Reply #34 on: January 22, 2007, 11:34:46 AM

{...Stephen seems to get a touch offended...}

What I got from the comparison LC made was a compliment to the Torque images and a "he he look what happens if you use the colour swatches from the new faecalphiliacs' 'Brown Around Town' collection for your entire game palette then draw it on screen using the Finger-Painting API" to the other one.  Shouldn't you be happy?

Wasn't really offended, but yes, the second response did appear to be saying that Torque sucked, so I responded in that manner.

Thinking why, it's because the darkfall image posted at first glance does look pretty ok (even with the critiques I posted, it's still not a bad image), yet the one that may have been Torque (the original image) was obviously not with any decent art!

Like I said in my first comment, I wasn't sure if it was meant as a compliment or not ;)

Interestingly, and disclaimer: we don't officially condone this at all, but we had a Torque user export WoW models into our import format and bring them into TGE-Advanced...and in many ways they looked better than the original source art within WoW.

There's no solid way to 100% compare performance settings, scene management, and a host of unqualifiable/measureable factors that go into a scene, but given even median technology it really is the art that counts, not the engine.

Honestly I think the Darkfall Engine and Art looks like shit. I think your critique was way too generous. This game just will further damage the reputation and future of PvP oriented games like Shadowbane did.

The torque engine is nice. There are a lot of games that could benefit from using it instead of their own half ass engines.  Maybe we will see a MMO using it in the future.

 
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