Why I don't enjoy this game.

[trias_e]

If EQ2 had Vanguard's combat/classes, I'd probably be playing it right now.

This game is stuck between people like Bandit, who like the game as it is and are actually subscribing, and all the people like me who have subbed and quit because, at least in part, that they found the combat dreadful.  They can't make any big changes, because they damn well know what happened to SWG, and it's not worth it to totally alienate your core playerbase.

But man, would I like for them to totally overhaul their combat system.

[Sky]

I dunno, diku-style mmo combat all seems the same to me. I don't get what you guys are saying, I think.

The only mmo that's had decent combat has been Planetside, CoH and  . I don't see EQ2 going to that, so I feel they should just stick with what they've got.

[Nhilist]

Seriously, you're like the fucking Eddie Haskel of the EQ2 forum. Find a better hobby. Don't you have a crusade to burn or something?

That was great, I'm going to try to use that at least twice today.

[shiznitz]

If EQ2 had Vanguard's combat/classes, I'd probably be playing it right now.

Do you want VG's combat or VG's classes? You put a / between them like they are the same thing. I don't see how VG combat is that much different from EQ2 other than the weakness system, although, to be fair, I play melee in EQ2 and caster in VG.

As far as the classes go, they are quite similar in concept: tanks, melee dps, monks kind of in the middle. The only real difference is druids are healers in EQ2 and dps in VG. The disciple is a very cool re-interpretaion of a healer, I must admit.

[Falconeer]

VG's combat, at least as a fighter, is more "instantaneous". When I hit my "whack" skill, my char does that. I don't have to wait for a cast-like bar to fill.
Plus, when I hit the whack button, my char on screen whacks. It's not like, as it happens in EQ2, I see the whack animation while still seeing lots and lots of orange numbers coming out of the mobs for autoattacks landing but not showing.

EQ2 combat feels to me more indirect, or "visceral", than VG or WoW one. The latter is way better to me. I think to a certain extent that is true for all those people who found EQ2 combat boring.

[Engels]

Falconeer, you can't possibly be serious. Even if VG has an 'instant' attack, its just hiding the timer from you. Instead of placing the timer at the beginning of the combat move, its placing it at the end of the previous combat move. Its entirely cosmetic.  You can argue that that's a better design because it creats the illusion of instant responsive action, but the mechanics are identical.

[Falconeer]

Yes, Engels. That's it. I don't mind when the system rolls my dice, if it's instantly or a couple of second later (it's seldom more than that). But I can't stand my finger pushing a button and the feedback of my action reaching me those 2 seconds later.
It's annoying in EQ2 and it's frustrating in LoTRO (which is the game I am playing right now cause it has so many good things beside that pet peeve, that will drive me away anyway eventually, sooner or later).

But, as I said, part of my gripes are for the "slight delay", while the bigger part of it is for the too emphatic combat visuals which don't reflect my actions/autoattacks the right way (for my tastes). The often mentioned "lack of synch".

EDIT: I almost forgot! Enqueing attacks. That SUCKS. If a skill is down IS DOWN. Enqueing sucks sucks sucks!!! ( Grrrrrrr... )

[Merusk]

Falconeer, you can't possibly be serious. Even if VG has an 'instant' attack, its just hiding the timer from you. Instead of placing the timer at the beginning of the combat move, its placing it at the end of the previous combat move. Its entirely cosmetic.  You can argue that that's a better design because it creats the illusion of instant responsive action, but the mechanics are identical.

The devil is in the details.  It's always the small touches that create the biggest difference in perception.  I think Falconeeer's hit on exactly why I felt the game was 'unresponsive.'  If not the lack of sync on combat actions, then the delay before as opposed to after.   It's part of the reason I couldn't stand playing melee WoW, too many "on next swing" actions.   Spell cast timers I'm ok with, but melee cast is lame.  :-D

[Glazius]

Falconeer, you can't possibly be serious. Even if VG has an 'instant' attack, its just hiding the timer from you. Instead of placing the timer at the beginning of the combat move, its placing it at the end of the previous combat move. Its entirely cosmetic.  You can argue that that's a better design because it creats the illusion of instant responsive action, but the mechanics are identical.

That is, in fact, what he _was_ arguing.

Having to wait for visual confirmation that an action was received and processed creates a gulf of evaluation - you don't know what effect your keypress has had until the action actually _happens_.

If there's a delay at the end of the previous combat action, that's _better_. Because after the previous combat action resolves, shouldn't I be considering _what to do next_?

Placing the timer at the start of the combat action instead of the end of it gives you approximately zero time to actually evaluate the situation, since after the combat action resolves the server can accept another combat action immediately.

This, in part, is why I didn't like LOTRO combat.

--GF

[Engels]

Fair enough, but I do get tired of VG's bonking sound, along with the Big Red Text across my screen that hollers at me 'You can't do that yet' every time I hit the next action before the previous action's cool down timer is still running.

Glazius, I hear what you're saying, and I'm enclined to agree, for the most part.

[Glazius]

Fair enough, but I do get tired of VG's bonking sound, along with the Big Red Text across my screen that hollers at me 'You can't do that yet' every time I hit the next action before the previous action's cool down timer is still running.

Ah.

Well, that's not happy design there.

I'm speaking from a CoX perspective as far as waiting before/after goes. The "global cooldown" is animation time of a power - powers cool down individually. If you activate another power during animation, it queues for execution when the animation is done. If you hit yet another power, it kicks the first power out of the queue and takes its place. So, the "queue" is exactly one power long. You can also set exactly one power to "queue by default". A power's effects generally take place sometime in the middle of its animation, so if you know what you want to do by then or before then you can queue it up and it'll just chain.

I can see how _actual_ global cooldowns might play hell with this little miniqueue, though.

--GF

[shiznitz]

Falconeer is free to judge MMO combat mechanics on any basis he wants, but this strikes me as serious cosmetic nitpicking. I find EQ2 combat visually busier than VG, actually. I still have the issue in VG where I have to hit the hotkey twice to actually get the spell/skill to fire if I have clicked elsewhere on the screen previously.

[Murgos]

EQ2 combat is very busy visually for my assassin and not busy at all for my paladin (when soloing, grouping is always a blur).  Both are melee classes but both look very different on screen.  A typical assassin combat is over in 10-15 seconds, often less, sometimes there will be 8 or 9 floaty damage numbers on the screen at once and a continuous string of particle effects from the various skills and procs (most assassin skills have a .5 second timer, practically unnoticeable).  In comparison with the paladin it is rare to have a combat that takes less than 60 seconds with a steady stream of damage and very predictable intervals between animations other than the default attacks and those are almost always either the heal or the damage shield.

Needless to say, the assassin is a much more visceral experience in combat.  What I am saying is that perception of the speed of combat in EQ2 varies greatly by class (and probably by level).

As far as the animations matching what is happening on the screen the only diku style game I can think of that did that very well was CoH/V.  CoH/V doesn't really have a traditional auto-attack though, as I recall every attack in that game must be triggered so it's much easier to match up the animations.

[Elsebet]

I like(d) EQ2.  We started very late and ended up hitting 50 in Permafrost the night before Desert of Flames launched.

We then went to 60 rather easily in DoF, and without a 24 man raiding guild, were relegated to running the same few instances every night for gear/masters.  Took a break for WoW and just recently came back for the free offer from cancelling the Vanguard accounts.

I have to agree with the opinions of those who say there are too many weak skills.  I am glad to hear that consolidation is at least on the developer/designer's minds.

I also think the spell progression should be done away with until at least level 35 so that brand new players who are very poor can at least enjoy their character at normal (Adept 1) spell/ability power until they can make some money.  On Oasis, Adept 1's even for level > 20 spells sell for at least 4 gold which is a lot of money for a brand new player.  Twinks can still utilize the low level Adept 3/Master 1 market.

[Nerf]

I'll bite, it's lonely talking to myself in the design forum.

I downloaded EQ2 about 3 days ago, IIRC, this is the 2nd time I've tried the game, although I can't remember the first at all.

From the moment I booted the launcher, I was not a happy panda.  The download got to roughly 10% and then slowed to a snails pace, 77 hours to download? Baby jesus is crying somewhere.

After waking up the next morning, doing some quick googling, I discover that this is a rather well known issue, with an easy fix, exit and reload.  Simple enough, but this isn't a beta, I expect a working client.

Next comes character creation.  After choosing which midget race I wanted to play, I get to the appearance screen.  Wow, I think the best term to describe the level of customization when it comes to appearance would be "underwhelmed".  So after a few minor tweaks, I get to class selection.

Holy shit.

I've never played EQ2 before, I didn't read a bunch of guides online, simply because I shouldn't have to.  I'm left to pick a class from a huge list with nothing but vague descriptions to go on.  I haven't even logged into the game yet, and I already know for a fact that I'm going to have to reroll.  Kickass.

Finally, I decide upon coercer, DD/CC classes are almost always fun, and generally decent for some solo play.

I wanted to give this game special treatment, I really wanted to like it, I'm bored, WoW doesn't do it for me, and Vanguard can only be explained as blatant sabotage by SoE to funnel people into EQ2. Apparently, it worked.

So off I go into the world of Everquest, adventures await me, there are hopes to crushed, dreams to be smashed, and cute little fluffy things to burninate.

First impressions are oh-so important, and my first impression of EQ2 upon logging can best be described as a bad internet dating scenario.  You all know what I'm talking about, you find a gal with cute pics, chat for a bit, and decide to meet.  You're feeling pretty sporty at this point, it seems like you found the holy grail of internet dating, cute chick that isn't a total cunt.  Scoreboard you.

That first date rolls around, you're a little jittery, you put your best foot forward, only to be kicked in the nuts with the truth.  Shes a fatty.  I don't mean chubby, a little thick, we're not talking about 20 or 30 vanity pounds.  Shes. A. Fatty.
Fuck.

You try to reassure yourself, thinking "Looks aren't everything!  She's got a great personality, that's enough justification to like a dog, even for fucking Jules man, and he's a bad mother fucker, so it's got to be good enough for me!"

That's still a hell of a hurdle, but you've gone this far, and it's not like anyone is going to see you.
Off into the world I trudge, tweaking my graphic settings to 'Extreme Quality'.  Sure, it glitches a little bit, but think of it as e-drunk, sometimes you gotta do what ya gotta do.
Onto the tutorials, finally, a chance to fight something, lets put that personality to use!
A trio of sparring partners stands before me, showing no fear, I unleash a Mind Shock upon my unsuspecting foe, expecting his mind, overwhelmed with the fact that I just told him Santa isn't real, to simply cease to be.  Preferably, by way of exploding.

Little did I know, that the joke was on me.  Instead of brain melting, head exploding, fire erupting from ears goodness, my spell got switched to 'Mashed Potato Fling I", and apparently, I'm a rather inept flinger, because there was a significant cooldown on the only possible way I have to damage my opponents. Great.

Still, undaunted, I continue, this time picking the largest and most menacing sparring partner.  Flinging a glob of my death potatoes with the grace and skill of a hyperactive 9 year old, I quickly notice that he is not amused.  Ow, Ow, Jesus that hurts! I think to myself, as he pummels me mercilessly while I sloppily sling goop in face, ever so slightly moving that hp bar of his.  Not to be bested by a dumb brute, I quickly spring into action.  I sing a quick lull-a-bye, putting the brute to slee..err..well, he just stood there, pacified, frozen in fear while I wind up my tater-slinging arm.
Splat!
Sleep.
Splat!
Sleep.
Splat!
Sleep.
Splat!
Sleep.
Victory is mine!

I made it up to level 5 before I finally couldn't take it anymore.  I got duped, I should've run when I saw she was fat broad, but damnit,  once you put in the effort, you might as well just stick your wang in it.  Once.  And not call back.

Feel free to tell me why I'm wrong, how much fun I really was having, and how I'm a noob for not wanting to earn my fun.  I'm going back to progress quest, my talking pony rapes face.

Edit: Typos - it's 7am, I don't do 7am.

[Signe]

Please play more crappy games!  I  your reviews! 

[Nerf]

Thanks (:

I'm thinking of writing a review for ninja gaiden: sigma on ps3, but right now even thinking about playing that game makes me search out ps3 controllers and throw them at things.

[Murgos]

Sounds like you should have played a wizard.  You would have been 1 or 2 shotting those mobs.

Coercers are supposed to be pretty good later on but there is that whole start off weak and get stronger thing going on and they aren't really a DPS or main combat class.  They're crowd control with some DPS and that isn't until 'later'.  But yes, coercer is probably the least played class in the game, I don't remember how many classes there are but you did manage to pick the one no one else uses.

edit: I also disagree with the - I shouldn't have to do research to make a choice between 20 options, they all should fit me regardless of who I am and what my personal play style is - line of thought.  The 20, or however many there are, options are there so you CAN find something that fits your style without have to make everything mush to fit the LCD.  Maybe the descriptions in game could be expanded a bit but they do tell you basically what a class does - CC, AoE DPS, Single Target Ranged DPS, Tank++, Tank light with DPS, etc... the actual melding of that particular archtype with your play style is what the research is for.  The game isn't just hop in and play a few hours and you're done, no MMO that I know of is, and that depth of choice, as with all choices, puts the onus on you to make the correct decision, is a necessary component of what these games are.

[Engels]

Awsomely fun review, Nerf. I too have revisited EQ2, trying to see if the damned date has lost some weight, but alas, a fatty potato-flinging lass she remains.

[Sky]

Rapes face?

You're not wrong, EQ2 sucks.

Buh-bye.

[Signe]

Oh, I like EQ2 a bit, but I still enjoyed the review. 

[Sky]

I should've inserted this quote:

Feel free to tell me why I'm wrong, how much fun I really was having, and how I'm a noob for not wanting to earn my fun.  I'm going back to progress quest, my talking pony rapes face.

[Surlyboi]

Ya don't like it? Play something else. It's really that simple.

[shiznitz]

Had a positiviely EQ1-like weekend in EQ2 camping the Sage in Castle MIstmoore. He drops the class legs. Like many of the named in Lower Guk, it is a bit of a fight to get to him, but once you are there and clear the room, there are just 3 spawns to cycle through, 2 singles and the Sage/PH. Unlike EQ1, though, none of the spawns have a fixed timer. The singles are 8-12 minutes and the Sage/PH is 13-17 minutes. I joined the group at 5pm. Two of the members had started at 8am. We were there until 10:30pm and only one set of legs dropped in my presence. In fact, we had 13 PHs and only 4 Sages in those 5 hours (we wiped once and there was some other downtime so the spawns/time won;t match exactly.)

Keep in mind that SOE did something excellent with the class sets. The drop rate considers what classes are in the group and which of those in the group already have their piece! So if 5 out of 6 have their legs and the legs drop, the 6th guy is guaranteed to get his. The two guys who started at 8am saw three legs drop before I got there but those winners left so they never benefited from the higher odds. You need friends who have their legs to stick it out because every person in the group who has theirs helps the odds for the others.

The evening was VERY EQ1. All of us were vets of that game so you can imagine the reminiscing. The only difference this time was that we were all on Ventrilo so only half the conversation was typed. Now I am not saying I want to go back to the EQ1 days, but I tolerated it because I am without the family for a week so I kind of enjoyed the retro aura of the whole thing.

[trias_e]

edit: I also disagree with the - I shouldn't have to do research to make a choice between 20 options, they all should fit me regardless of who I am and what my personal play style is - line of thought.  The 20, or however many there are, options are there so you CAN find something that fits your style without have to make everything mush to fit the LCD.  Maybe the descriptions in game could be expanded a bit but they do tell you basically what a class does - CC, AoE DPS, Single Target Ranged DPS, Tank++, Tank light with DPS, etc... the actual melding of that particular archtype with your play style is what the research is for.  The game isn't just hop in and play a few hours and you're done, no MMO that I know of is, and that depth of choice, as with all choices, puts the onus on you to make the correct decision, is a necessary component of what these games are.

Honestly I'm fine with doing research and browsing forums to check out classes in MMORPGS. 

But you never really know if you're going to enjoy a class until you play it, unfortunately.  I mean, the paladin sounds like fun on paper, but it's boring as hell in execution.  And when you have 24 classes, that's a whole lot of room for lots of classes you don't like.  WoW's system of less classes, more distinct classes, and talent specs to adjust for playstyle I think is a much better idea.

[trias_e]

I made it up to level 5 before I finally couldn't take it anymore.  I got duped, I should've run when I saw she was fat broad, but damnit,  once you put in the effort, you might as well just stick your wang in it.  Once.  And not call back.

Christ, I'm pathetic.  I came back twice for more!  Maybe I thought she'd lost a few pounds.  Or I was just that desperate.

[Feydakeen]

I have read trough all these posts and I am TRULY baffled...

So many people have absolutely NO CLUE what EQ2 is about.

I doubt many people even read the description of the skills they get, heck, maybe most can't even read cause EVERY combat art in EQ2 makes a difference.
You can hit and mash every combat art you have and "feel" they are useless etc... but if you would take a minute to examine just what it does and try to THINK (not that most of whom diss  EQ2 look like they can think) you would see that adapting the sequence can make a huge difference. My Paladin can do 1,5 K DPS when done right, most useless players who just want 4-5 bright shiny spells and don't want a deep focused game will be lucky to get 500 K DPS while pushing just buttons.

EQ2 may not be instantly gratifying and hell you can't log on and ding 60 after moving 2 steps and killing 3 mobs. But at least it is rewarding unlike some other games I won't mention. Hell I agree games should be fun, but without any difficulty, without any "work" or any kind of involvement and reading and studying of combat arts and classes you can't expect the same amount of achievement. You want to be able to run a marathon without training. Sure go ahead play that other game...

[Signe]

  Hello!

[Sky]

 

[Feydakeen]

Hello to you too, and enjoy the popcorn  :-D

[trias_e]

Oh, you have no idea how I maximized my dps.  I'm one of those people that has to do everything perfectly.  I don't half ass things.  I like to be that guy on top of the damage meters because I am obsessive over doing the little things that no one else in their right mind does.  I'm the guy that's crazy enough to actually do fucking math and enjoy the process.

And to maximize your dps, I basically pressed

1,5,4,=,3,7,8,6,2,9,-,0

over and over again.  I didn't even have to look at the screen.  I just stared at my refreshing hotkeys.  God I owned. 

Oh, and EQ2 is one of the easiest games I've ever played.

[Feydakeen]

Oh, and EQ2 is one of the easiest games I've ever played.

The others you played being Pong, Pac-Man and Mario Bros? 

[trias_e]

Hell, considering those games are more difficult in core gameplay than 99% of playtime in any diku out there, I should just say yes.

[Feydakeen]

Hell, considering those games are more difficult in core gameplay than 99% of playtime in any diku out there, I should just say yes.

If you had one neuron and could read the manual you would get more out of the game, and understand more of the difficulties and the core gameplay. Stick with those games if you find them better and post on those subsequent forums  :-D

[Nebu]

If you had one neuron and could read the manual you would get more out of the game, and understand more of the difficulties and the core gameplay. Stick with those games if you find them better and post on those subsequent forums  :-D

Either you're missing the point or you don't read well.  MMOG's of diku origin just aren't all that complex.  He's stating as much and I think most here that have been playing/developing them since the MUD days would agree.  So if you're just trying to raise your postcount, please do it with some added value.