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f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  The Gaming Graveyard  |  Everquest 2  |  Topic: Why I don't enjoy this game. 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
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Author Topic: Why I don't enjoy this game.  (Read 38911 times)
trias_e
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on: January 12, 2007, 01:40:00 PM

I've started up my EQ2 account twice in the last year for about a month each time.  And each time I am impressed with the content the game has to offer.  The second time, with the EoF expansion, was particularly impressive, with the new zones being beautiful and quite fun to explore (butcherblock, less so, but Gfay, very much so).

So why do I quit at level 25 every character I make?  I think I finally got it figured out.  It actually was hard to put my finger on...I would just get bored, but the 'why' behind the boredom wasn't exactly clear.

My take:  The combat stinks.  At first, I'm impressed with the amount of skills.  But once you get to level 20-25, the 20-skill-cycle you mindlessly go through every mob is ridiculously boring.  The skills are bland and not effective enough.

Why does WoW work for me better?  I solo'd practically to 60 with a mage, one of the most repetitive classes there is. 

1)  Distinct effects.  Frost nova is disctinct, obvious, and important.  It has good aesthetic appeal.

2)  Spells that matter.  Sure, you spam frostbolt and fireball alot.  But what's the difference between spamming fireball and a 20-skill-cycle that seems more like work than fun?  It actually is less fun, because the skills in that cycle are not reactive based on the mob, but rather simply a matter of mana use and cooldown ratio.  So it's just a whole lot more work.  BORING.

My mage has fireblast, CoC, frost nova, blink...short cooldown spells to be applied in specific situations.  These are aesthetically obvious and pleasing and distinct, but also tactically interesting.  I don't really feel the need for more spells with my mage, even though there's much less of them than any class in EQ2 has.

Bottom line:  Way too many fluff spells in EQ2.  When I press a button, I want it to matter.  I don't want to have to press 15 of them, making the most effective cooldown cycle, and do it over and over again.


I don't know why I really made a thread about this.  I suppose I'm curious what others think the flaws in this game are, and if others have the same view of combat in this game as I do.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2007, 01:41:49 PM by trias_e »
shiznitz
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Reply #1 on: January 12, 2007, 03:18:46 PM

You do make a good point. I would argue, though, that having lots of skills allows some skills to have long timers. That allows those skills/spells to be more powerful. If EQ2 was just auto-attack with 2 powerful 5 minute recharge abilities, combat would be really boring. I think EQ2 tries for a happy medium of giving you something to do and giving you abilities that can turn the tide if used properly.

Part of the problem is also that many of the class-defining abilities happen in the 40s and 50s. I have a single character, a berserker. His best skill, Rampage (every attack hits every mob in the necounter for 30 seconds or ten iterations), is a 50+ ability and it markedly increases the value of a berserker in a group or raid.

I have never played WoW.
Kitsune
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Reply #2 on: January 12, 2007, 04:09:04 PM

I also feel that the EQ2 abilities come across as bland.  They look okay, but none of them seem to have any oomph.  I was playing a Conjurer, and my pets were pretty weak, I couldn't rely on them at all, while my offensive spells just kicked up dust.  Compared to my EQ magician and his badass water elemental of ass-kicking and 'set everything on fire' spell, the conjurer was just pathetic.  And it's not even that the conjurer was actually weak, he just felt that way, I never had any sort of sensation that the primal forces of the universe were at my command.
Hartsman
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Reply #3 on: January 12, 2007, 05:09:27 PM


In my personal play, this is a big sticking point for me too.  The rate of ability granting was originally tuned for a much slower rate of level gain, which resulted in too many abilities that don't feel distinct enough in some cases, or powerful enough in others.  One of the things we're trying to find creative, yet not upsetting, ways to address.

tazelbain
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tazelbain


Reply #4 on: January 12, 2007, 05:12:16 PM

Loved the necro/conj pet.  I have made good exp in groups with the main tank being a pet against orange ^^^.  I only wish there was a healer pet, so I could fill in when the group lacks a healer.

"Me am play gods"
Hartsman
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Reply #5 on: January 12, 2007, 05:34:38 PM

Loved the necro/conj pet.  I have made good exp in groups with the main tank being a pet against orange ^^^.  I only wish there was a healer pet, so I could fill in when the group lacks a healer.

I was grouped the other day with a conj who had a heal/ward pet out -- Achievements are fun. :)

tazelbain
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tazelbain


Reply #6 on: January 12, 2007, 06:19:40 PM

Enhance: Hydromancer
Summons an inhabitant of the Plane of Water to aid the Conjurer's group. This pet is specialized in the recovery of health and power restoration with an assortment of temporary beneficial group enhancements.

Neat if it is useful, too bad I am a necro.  But I wouldn't be AL 21 in the forseeable future anyway.

The new acheivement list looks better in general.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2007, 06:28:17 PM by tazelbain »

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tazelbain
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tazelbain


Reply #7 on: January 12, 2007, 06:34:13 PM

EDIT: I shouldn't have to earn something that is a band-aid to massive flaw in your game.  You be giving to me for free just be happy to get my $15.

"Me am play gods"
Kitsune
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Reply #8 on: January 12, 2007, 08:20:23 PM

I think a lot of it's just art direction.  WoW's abilities have 'teh shiney', lots of flash and bright colors, while a lot of the stuff in EQ2 has a much more subdued appearance.  As an example, there was a staff that I got my conjurer really early on in the newbie island, and she looked badass with it.  Her attack animation was this swirling dervish of death with the staff, swinging the thing around like Darth Maul.  Later, I got a better staff, but her attack animation was reduced to just bonking things on the head with it.  Despite it being a more powerful weapon, statwise, I was very unhappy with it, because it had stopped looking impressive.

That's kinda EQ2's problem in a nutshell.  My conjurer wasn't actually weak, I was decent in a fight with her.  She just appeared weak compared to other experiences I've had because her pet and spells were all fairly low-key in effect.
Surlyboi
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eat a bag of dicks


Reply #9 on: January 13, 2007, 07:12:22 AM

I've said this before and hey, I'm saying it again. The lack of an overabundance of "teh shiney" is one of the many reasons I prefer EQ2 over WoW. It's a happy medium. It's not overly blinged in the armor/weapons/effects area, a-la WoW, but it's not underly so, a-la post NGE SWG. (Look! I'm a jedi, poke... poke... swing...). One obvious differentiation there though is what I like to call the "Qeynos uber gear".  (The Claymore, the Kilj, that bigass shield some pallys are sporting with the runes) I feel like I'm playing Final Fantasy or something when those get busted out.

Of course, YMMV...


Tuned in, immediately get to watch cringey Ubisoft talking head offering her deepest sympathies to the families impacted by the Orlando shooting while flanked by a man in a giraffe suit and some sort of "horrifically garish neon costumes through the ages" exhibit or something.  We need to stop this fucking planet right now and sort some shit out. -Kail
trias_e
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Reply #10 on: January 13, 2007, 11:16:12 AM

I'm not really talking about equipment.  And aesthetic is just a small part.  It's mostly the gameplay involved, which I consider tedious, mindless.

I'd rather auto-attack and tactically hit a button once every 3-6 seconds than mindlessly go through a 20-skill cycle over and over again.
Murgos
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Reply #11 on: January 13, 2007, 12:57:07 PM

I'd rather fight 5 or 6 things at once swinging massive blows that stagger and incapacitate my enemy while dodging incoming attacks.  Why must I stand in place in front of 1 critter for 3 to 5 minutes and tediously hit buttons in a preordained order?

"You have all recieved youre last warning. I am in the process of currently tracking all of youre ips and pinging your home adressess. you should not have commencemed a war with me" - Aaron Rayburn
jpark
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Reply #12 on: January 14, 2007, 12:42:05 AM

This is my favorite topic.  Isolating why EQ2 sucks so fucking bad is like a research undertaking:  can we identify the root problem(s)?

I have tried this game several times.  I would rather be working.  Or reading the telephone book.

Trias you hit the nail on the head (if we overlook the utter absence of art in the game).  Remember for EQ2 devs - they have it in their mind that SCOPE makes for fun.  You know THIRTY TWO Classes!  Several dozen spells!  Woot!  Tons and tons of Quests!

And I can barely remember any of them.  (I can remember when WoW was criticized prior to release for having too few classes).

These guys should take a hard look at City of Heroes - the best example of tight skill sets that have dramatic effects in combat.  WoW of course does a good job of this - but not quite to the extent of CoH.

The situation is so bad - that on my templar - when I get a spell upgrade (magic arrow + N) I cannot readily identify the next spell within the same spell line in my book.  Their nomenclature for the spell advances do not even follow an intuitive order.  I guess renaming the spell - when you upgrade it - makes look like there are even more spells to choose from!

Challenge:  Give me 6 spells.  Make them interesting.  I refuse to work with more than that.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2007, 12:45:31 AM by jpark »

"I think my brain just shoved its head up its own ass in retaliation.
"  HaemishM.
jpark
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Reply #13 on: January 14, 2007, 12:52:14 AM

Her attack animation was this swirling dervish of death with the staff, swinging the thing around like Darth Maul.  Later, I got a better staff, but her attack animation was reduced to just bonking things on the head with it.

I noticed this on a Monk alt I created.  There appear to be different types of staffs.  Strangely, the Darth Maul/ Kung Fu animation in using the staff is not a function of the class - but the item type itself.  Some staffs are used like clubs - "bonk" - while others are deftly used martial arts style.  My monk got a new staff and started using it like a club - so I got rid of it - and got another staff he used Darth Maul style for combat animations.

I forget the names distinguishing either type of staff and their associated animations.

"I think my brain just shoved its head up its own ass in retaliation.
"  HaemishM.
geldonyetich
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Reply #14 on: January 14, 2007, 01:54:38 PM

The reason being that some staves are intended to be used by mages while others by more martial classes.  Still, if it were up to me, I'd probably make the wielding style based off the class and not a flag on the weapon.

I, too, grew bored of EQ2 lately.  My reason wasn't' so much the combat so much as the monotony of the grind, doing quest after quest unceasingly, actually out leveling a goodly amount of my quests when doing quests alone.  EverQuest indeed.  I probably wouldn't have minded doing quests except for two bothersome things:

1. All that running around.  My kingdom for a horse!  Oh, 3 plat?  I'd probably afford this in my 30s.
2. In certain quests, spawns were ridiculously limited.  For example, I might be asked to kill 10 mobs in a dungeon where there's only two spawned at a time.  (This is considered a bug by the current EQ2 team, but is unfortunately low on their priority list.  Supposedly the newer content, such as Echoes of Faydwer, won't have this problem.)

I could never decide on a single character, breaking continuity.  (Alt-a-holicism is often a symptom of boredom.)

The Combat in EQ2 is actually pretty fast paced.  Having recently compared the two, EverQuest 2 combat actually moves significantly faster (in terms of the hotkeys are fired off) than City of Heroes.  Variety of moves is another issue with me, but I can't of having an insufficient variety when, by level 20ish, I've got three fully loaded hotbars of moves and situational items (ex. potions).  Thanks to the Achievement system, there's an increased variety of moves versus how it was before.

I might well resubscribe to EQ2 soon... because it'll be on the All-Station Pass with Vanguard.

jpark
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Reply #15 on: January 14, 2007, 02:06:32 PM

The Combat in EQ2 is actually pretty fast paced.  Having recently compared the two, EverQuest 2 combat actually moves significantly faster (in terms of the hotkeys are fired off) than City of Heroes.  Variety of moves is another issue with me, but I can't of having an insufficient variety when, by level 20ish, I've got three fully loaded hotbars of moves and situational items (ex. potions). 

Like the class system of EQ2 - no doubt there are far MORE abilities to use in combat than in CoH.  Frequency of use is really not important - but if you want - my Templar has to do quick cast remove trauma several times in some fights.  Yup, that adds to the frequency - and I can do with out it.

You have fewer moves in Coh, but when your opening move as a tank can be to teleport your foe right to your feet - that's just plain cool.  We don't forget powers like that.  As a healer - I might choose to go into stealth mode to reduce my aggro in a fight - or levitate to avoid certain knock back effects (based on power pool selection).  I could rhyme off many powers in CoH because they had a huge effect on combat and I looked forward to using them.

I can't really remember anything about my Templar's ability in the absence of looking at the spell bars.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2007, 03:06:18 PM by jpark »

"I think my brain just shoved its head up its own ass in retaliation.
"  HaemishM.
pxib
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Reply #16 on: January 14, 2007, 02:31:09 PM

I can't really remember anything about my Templar's ability in the absence of looking at the spell bars.

Bingo. I did the 14 day trial and came out of it completely nonplussed. I played a shaman, a conjurer, an illusionist, a necromancer, a berserker, and two or three other classes whose NAMES I've even forgotten. They all play exactly the same. Set up skills in a particular order on the skillbar and click them as soon as the cooldowns recharge. Every few fights some situational choice makes a difference, usually because of the bizzare combo system rather than because of my class. When skills had unique effects they tended to include long animations rather than flashy ones. I felt tracky rather than mighty.

I felt this way no matter what class I was playing. Click the buttons in order as soon as the cooldowns recharge unless the shape in the combo system says different this time.

The quests were fun and the storyline compelling, but wandering around the world getting in fights just left me cold. Plus the art was jarring. Scenery didn't necessarily match monsters or setting, and everything felt cramped and artificial. Overall it was unfun and uninspired. I didn't inish my 14 days.

farther refers to physical distance, further refers to metaphorical distance, father refers to emotional distance
Azazel
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Reply #17 on: January 15, 2007, 07:54:15 AM

Without going into flaming of the game, your post sums up how I felt in my trial of EQ2 pretty well as well. The most fun thing I found to do was actually foraging roots and various bits of crap off the ground in the skeleton/graveyard/undead areas of freeport.

Yeah, I didn't last through the entire trial, either.


http://azazelx.wordpress.com/ - My Miniatures and Hobby Blog.
Bandit
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Reply #18 on: January 15, 2007, 09:03:38 AM

I can't really remember anything about my Templar's ability in the absence of looking at the spell bars.

Bingo. I did the 14 day trial and came out of it completely nonplussed. I played a shaman, a conjurer, an illusionist, a necromancer, a berserker, and two or three other classes whose NAMES I've even forgotten. They all play exactly the same. Set up skills in a particular order on the skillbar and click them as soon as the cooldowns recharge. Every few fights some situational choice makes a difference, usually because of the bizzare combo system rather than because of my class. When skills had unique effects they tended to include long animations rather than flashy ones. I felt tracky rather than mighty.

I felt this way no matter what class I was playing. Click the buttons in order as soon as the cooldowns recharge unless the shape in the combo system says different this time.

The quests were fun and the storyline compelling, but wandering around the world getting in fights just left me cold. Plus the art was jarring. Scenery didn't necessarily match monsters or setting, and everything felt cramped and artificial. Overall it was unfun and uninspired. I didn't inish my 14 days.

Great summary, because you made it to what...level 10? With what maybe....15 skills? You can't tell me it's any different than playing WoW or any MMO for that matter at that low level.

Quote
Trias you hit the nail on the head (if we overlook the utter absence of art in the game).  Remember for EQ2 devs - they have it in their mind that SCOPE makes for fun.  You know THIRTY TWO Classes!  Several dozen spells!  Woot!  Tons and tons of Quests!

And I can barely remember any of them.  (I can remember when WoW was criticized prior to release for having too few classes).

You see the number of classes as a weakness? Personally I see it as a strength....they are not hard to remember if you have played for more than 2 weeks.  Issues like these are what most EQ2 Fanboys laugh at  "Too many skills! Too many classes!", get over it.

Quote
Like the class system of EQ2 - no doubt there are far MORE abilities to use in combat than in CoH.  Frequency of use is really not important - but if you want - my Templar has to do quick cast remove trauma several times in some fights.  Yup, that adds to the frequency - and I can do with out it.

So first you say its a matter of simply clicking refreshing abilites, then you get upset (as a templar) reacting to a heal situation?

I know this all comes across like a flame, and to a degree it is.  I am just getting tired of this damn EQ2 vs. WoW drama threads. *Yawn*  Jpark, I realize you do not like EQ2, you have made it abundantly clear, on numerous occassions....but if you played it more than you took time to bitch about it, you may see it differently.
 
I just don't see all these issues you cry about.  I have options every fight, it is not a matter of refreshing icons.  For instance, My troub can mez adds, short duration charms, debuffs, drop into range and fire off arrows to debuff and stifle casters, stealth and back stab, posistional attacks, melee attacks, about at least 12 songs to choose from depending on group make-up or enocunter, which group member do I superbuff (jester's cap) in what situation.   

I dunno guys, your points aern't just valid to me, carry no weight whatsoever.

I felt the same way when I played WoW after a year of EQ2, it was an okay game, but I was used to EQ2 mechanics...EQ2 just seems more iinteractive to me (must note only made it to level 40 in WoW). More meat to combat and encounters - more options. From my bias, I just see WoW as a dumbed down EQ2 with 1/10 the content.  Don't get me wrong, obviously WoW is pretty damn good, the numbers don't lie.  EQ2 does have some issues, but get over it...not evey game is as "perfect" as WoW :P




Azazel
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Reply #19 on: January 15, 2007, 09:47:20 AM

[EQ2 does have some issues, but get over it...not evey game is as "perfect" as WoW :P

Well, once a game enters a "finished" state (and I wouldn't call Vanguard finished, nor EQ2 in it's release state as opposed to now) it's really a matter of horses for courses. While I personally hated EQ2, it doesn't make it a shit game, just one I don't want to play. FWIW though, I found EQ2 very different to WoW at the low entry-levels. On a mechanical level on paper they may be similar, but I felt thay played very differently. But as I said, doesn't worry me if you like one more than the other, even if you like the one I don't..




http://azazelx.wordpress.com/ - My Miniatures and Hobby Blog.
trias_e
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Reply #20 on: January 15, 2007, 10:06:16 AM

If a class isn't fun to play by level 20, why am I still playing your game?

I've played a defiler, a paladin, and a swashbuckler all to 20-25.  The swashbuckler is the only one that was any fun whatsoever, and even that one was flawed.

Coincendentally, I find CoH combat to not be particularly great (for different reasons), and always quit at level 20 in that game too.  The combat is just one reason I quit CoH though...the combat is the main reason I quit EQ2.

Quote
Personally I see it as a strength

Why?  I'm not saying it can't be a strength.  But the classes need to be distinct and interesting enough to matter.  Also, of course, more classes = more balancing issues.  Why do you think EQ2 is a better game with 24 classes instead of 12?  I just want some sort of reasoning here.

Quote
For instance, My troub can mez adds, short duration charms, debuffs, drop into range and fire off arrows to debuff and stifle casters, stealth and back stab, posistional attacks, melee attacks, about at least 12 songs to choose from depending on group make-up or enocunter, which group member do I superbuff (jester's cap) in what situation.   

Have you ever considered that other classes in the game aren't as interesting as this and are just a 10+ attack-cycle rotation?  Becuase they are at level 25.  It's a fact.  Go play a paladin, I dare ya.  My defiler didn't use attack skills, but basically just cycled between a dot, debuff, heal, ward.  And god he was miserably bad and boring when it came to soloing.  In grouping, he was even worse, because I just debuffed and group warded over and over again.  Truly a class for the afk.

Even my swashbuckler, the most interesting class I've played, still used a 8-attack skill rotation by level 20, just with a circling move to the back now and then.  The only difference with it is that nothing lives past the second rotation generally...which is a great improvement.  But still, it's just another attack-skill rotation.

Yeah, so what I never got past level 25?  That doesn't mean my point isn't valid.  Maybe EQ2 becomes fun once you get to level 40 or 50.  Fine:  My character should start at that level then, thanks.

« Last Edit: January 15, 2007, 10:09:11 AM by trias_e »
jpark
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Reply #21 on: January 15, 2007, 10:53:13 AM

Trias post above summarizes my counter arguments.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2007, 10:55:02 AM by jpark »

"I think my brain just shoved its head up its own ass in retaliation.
"  HaemishM.
Surlyboi
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eat a bag of dicks


Reply #22 on: January 15, 2007, 12:32:19 PM

So then, when I say I hate WoW because no character I ever played was fun, I expect you knobs to accept that at face value.

WoW bores the shit out of me. The quests are uninspired, the class options shallow, the gameplay derivative and the "hyperreal" art direction that people have raved about screams to me "short attention span".

Haven't you trolls got an expansion to go play in?

Tuned in, immediately get to watch cringey Ubisoft talking head offering her deepest sympathies to the families impacted by the Orlando shooting while flanked by a man in a giraffe suit and some sort of "horrifically garish neon costumes through the ages" exhibit or something.  We need to stop this fucking planet right now and sort some shit out. -Kail
Rasix
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Reply #23 on: January 15, 2007, 12:35:56 PM

So then, when I say I hate WoW because no character I ever played was fun, I expect you knobs to accept that at face value.

WoW bores the shit out of me. The quests are uninspired, the class options shallow, the gameplay derivative and the "hyperreal" art direction that people have raved about screams to me "short attention span".

Haven't you trolls got an expansion to go play in?

 undecided

This is why I generally don't like others trolling the specific game boards here.  People get all butt-hurt.

Not saying all here is trolling though, but jpark.. let it go, man.

-Rasix
Surlyboi
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eat a bag of dicks


Reply #24 on: January 15, 2007, 12:48:41 PM

Not so much butt hurt, just incredibly hung over and tired of seeing basically the same person rehash an argument with not a lot of merit in my book. Everyone's milage varies on what they find a good game. The difference is, most of them don't hit another forum to air that beef.

Tuned in, immediately get to watch cringey Ubisoft talking head offering her deepest sympathies to the families impacted by the Orlando shooting while flanked by a man in a giraffe suit and some sort of "horrifically garish neon costumes through the ages" exhibit or something.  We need to stop this fucking planet right now and sort some shit out. -Kail
pxib
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Reply #25 on: January 15, 2007, 02:36:08 PM

So then, when I say I hate WoW because no character I ever played was fun, I expect you knobs to accept that at face value.

Done, I understand completely. I didn't really enjoy World of Warcraft either. I stuck with it longer for three reasons.

First, each class played sufficiently different from the others that gettng each to level 20 was a completely unique experience. I had to focus on different parts of combat and learn a new stye. That I was ultimately unsatisfied with any of them took weeks to realize. From the first few skills I was aware of the flavor of a class, and had much to discover about its niche. Not so EQ2. Here's the sustained buff, here's the group buff, here's the quick attack, here's the debuff. They had unique graphics, and different effects, but their feel (and even sequence) was typically the same. Perhaps in higher level play each EQ2 class is a singular experience, but I wasn't going to slog through the low levels to find out. I didn't just have to repeat low level content, I had to entirely repeat low-level play. The thought was not inspiring.

Second, I personally found the art immersive. For the first time since UO, I felt like a cartoon hero in a cartoon fantasy world.

Third, and most unfair to the respective quality of each game, I had friends playing WoW.

That positive response didn't keep me playing the game as long as I played DAoC or even CoH... but it held my interest longer than EQ2.

Not so much butt hurt, just incredibly hung over and tired of seeing basically the same person rehash an argument with not a lot of merit in my book. Everyone's milage varies on what they find a good game. The difference is, most of them don't hit another forum to air that beef.

Actually most of them do. Over and over again. I think "hit another forum to air that beef" sums up F13 pretty well.

farther refers to physical distance, further refers to metaphorical distance, father refers to emotional distance
Surlyboi
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Reply #26 on: January 15, 2007, 02:52:44 PM

Works for me, Pxib. I can respect that.

Not that I'm a huge fan of EQ2 either. Hell, feet will tell you I haven't been on since the expansion went live. Granted, that's mostly because no one from BC came back and I find soloing in the game a bit of a boring grind after 40, but I'd still take it over WoW any day of the week. Then again, I'd almost take a sucking chest wound over WoW so...

The only game that's really been able to hold my attention has been the original EQ that got five solid years out of me before I let it go.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2007, 03:10:50 PM by Surlyboi »

Tuned in, immediately get to watch cringey Ubisoft talking head offering her deepest sympathies to the families impacted by the Orlando shooting while flanked by a man in a giraffe suit and some sort of "horrifically garish neon costumes through the ages" exhibit or something.  We need to stop this fucking planet right now and sort some shit out. -Kail
Rasix
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I am the harbinger of your doom!


Reply #27 on: January 15, 2007, 02:56:07 PM

Quote
Actually most of them do. Over and over again. I think "hit another forum to air that beef" sums up F13 pretty well.

I really, really dislike this generalization and the practice of trolling the game boards in particular, and if it's truly IS the case (and my perceptions are just out of wack), we need to start correcting this (ya know, as a community!).  Rings similar to "f13 is all about trolling"! or "f13, the only place for teh hate".  Gah.  Sure it may add some spice, but as an identity?  Please no.

I don't think "why I dislike this game" threads  are bad, especially if they bring up salient issues with the game that others may feel the need to comment about.  It's the constant interjection by people that seem to have a personal, irrational stake in seeing a game fail, that really irks me.  And you know when it's going to happen, and by who.  It's like I said in the Festivus thread, some of you are just too damn predictable.   This isn't to say that there shouldn't be a place for dissenting views, it's just that some more closely resemble vendettas than an actual desire for discussion.

Most games that deserve constant vitroil tend to die.  At least lately.  (/wave AC2)

I still need to play EQ2 to decide where this game actually stands, but I'll have to burn through all of TBC first and get sick of WoW again.  So.. around July? I did promise to play this game (I was drunk though)  undecided

Edit: of course, I'm being predictable by saying the above.. again.   Beating a Dead Horse
« Last Edit: January 15, 2007, 03:03:12 PM by Rasix »

-Rasix
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Reply #28 on: January 15, 2007, 03:26:46 PM

Rings similar to "f13 is all about trolling"! or "f13, the only place for teh hate".  Gah.  Sure it may add some spice, but as an identity?  Please no.

I didn't think I was talking about trolling. Specifically baiting a game's dedicated defenders is repugnant, and the moderators and posters are pretty quick at sniffing out and mocking that sort of game. Rather than "f13, the only place for teh hate", we get "f13, the only place for teh hate debate". On most forums a frustrated anti-game post will just get you flamed... here it gets you flamed with a cross-referenced, link-heavy list of bullet points from professional curmudgeons.

That sort of hate is worth its weight in pizza and beer.

The only game that's really been able to hold my attention has been the original EQ that got five solid years out of me before I let it go.

I spent an equally pathetic amount of time playing UO. The first game gets a pass because we don't know any better. To capture that level of my attention, my time, and my cash again, a new game would need to make me feel like a MMOG virgin again. DAoC was my first 3D DIKU. CoH was, and is, its own novel combination of play styles. WoW is a genuine pop phenomenon.

Those surprises and discoveries squeezed more life out of me than EQ2 managed.

farther refers to physical distance, further refers to metaphorical distance, father refers to emotional distance
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Reply #29 on: January 15, 2007, 04:40:29 PM

I was just trying to express why I didn't like the game, which actually took me a while to figure out.  I was curious if it was just my experience or others.  Then everyone starts flaming and getting...butt-hurt.

?

Anyways, the problems with EQ2 are in many ways quite subtle in my opinion, and I really want to like this game.  This is why I think talking about the problems is useful for A) Figuring out exactly what they are, and B) Theoretically thinking about how to fix them.  I don't think WoW is a godsend by any means.  But they designed their simplistic and small amount of classes better than EQ2's large amount of 'complex' classes for about 95% of people I'd guess.  I think it's reasonable to ask what the problem is.

Finally, I know EQ2 devs lurk here, so I posted thinking I'd get a response or a read, which I did.


With that out of the way...

If you don't want to read about people complaining about your chosen game, don't fucking click on a thread that is obviously going to complain about your chosen game.  I think it's impossible to make the title any clearer.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2007, 04:44:52 PM by trias_e »
jpark
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Reply #30 on: January 15, 2007, 05:47:56 PM

Not so much butt hurt, just incredibly hung over and tired of seeing basically the same person rehash an argument with not a lot of merit in my book. Everyone's milage varies on what they find a good game. The difference is, most of them don't hit another forum to air that beef.

So where can I discuss the incompetence of the dev team for EQ2?

In the general gaming section? 

My arguments without merit?  Please - if EQ2 is unfairly characterized as you suggest - let's talk about those subscription numbers :)  It is very clear - without any room for equivocation - that this game has not done well.  The question then is, why?  That's my interest.

I come here to talk about the industry.  If you play this game naked - good for you - but I am interested in case studies illustrating success and failiure in this industry.  That's the context for this discussion.  Your personal experiences - or anyone esle' - are only relevant to me insofar as they act as a possible focus group to reflect the broader player base.

The initial design decisions behind this game upon release were truely remarkable.  The egregious nature of these decisions should not recede from discussion - and serve as great material in anticpating future mishaps.

If I show passion on this matter it is because it has less to do with EQ2 than it is my inability to suffer incompetence.  I did the same thing with management teams when I was an investment analyst.  Why should I be any gentler here?

Let's have two forums.  One for guys that wnat to share warm fuzzies about their game - and a second forum devoted to post mortem analysis.

« Last Edit: January 15, 2007, 05:59:04 PM by jpark »

"I think my brain just shoved its head up its own ass in retaliation.
"  HaemishM.
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Reply #31 on: January 15, 2007, 06:42:09 PM

Trias, I appreciate your input. Wasn't you I was bitching about.

jpark on the other hand, you should know if you were the "serious gamer pundit" you seem to be claiming yourself to be rather than just the WoW fanboy that you actually are, that sub numbers are fairly low on the list of reasons why a game sinks or swims.

Quote
The initial design decisions behind this game upon release were truely remarkable.  The egregious nature of these decisions should not recede from discussion - and serve as great material in anticpating future mishaps.

If I show passion on this matter it is because it has less to do with EQ2 than it is my inability to suffer incompetence.  I did the same thing with management teams when I was an investment analyst.  Why should I be any gentler here?

I call bullshit on this. If it was just an intolerance of incompetance as you say, you wouldn't take every opportunity to compare it to WoW.

As I've said multpile times on this forum and a few others, EQ2 is not "my favorite game" not by a long shot. That honor goes to EQ and pre-CU SWG. I liked the former because it was my first "visual MUD" that didn't have the top-down, less-immersive feel of UO. The latter because it changed the way the game was played. Skills instead of levels, a scalable con system based on what weapon you were proficient in and what other skills were handy. And yes, 32 classes which were hell to balance. Both of those games innovated where WoW merely copies and attempts to perfect an old formula.

So, to sum up. If you seriously dislike a game and it's implementation. Talk about the implementation and what is lacking about that. Don't use it as an opportunity to wax poetic about whatever game it is you're currently slapping the ham for.

Tuned in, immediately get to watch cringey Ubisoft talking head offering her deepest sympathies to the families impacted by the Orlando shooting while flanked by a man in a giraffe suit and some sort of "horrifically garish neon costumes through the ages" exhibit or something.  We need to stop this fucking planet right now and sort some shit out. -Kail
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Reply #32 on: January 15, 2007, 06:56:00 PM

jpark on the other hand, you should know if you were the "serious gamer pundit" you seem to be claiming yourself to be rather than just the WoW fanboy that you actually are, that sub numbers are fairly low on the list of reasons why a game sinks or swims.
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I call bullshit on this. If it was just an intolerance of incompetance as you say, you wouldn't take every opportunity to compare it to WoW.

?

Where to begin.

1.  No doubt you're a nice guy but I have no interest in your specific likes or dislikes per se.  Or anyone else who posts on f13.  I try to put together trends in my head based on that info - with its severe limitations.  It does not matter if EQ2 is your favorite game or not - I am not talking about you - I am talking about this specific game.

2.  WoW.  Prior to release comparisons were all made between WoW and EQ2.  That's the reason for the comparison.  Also, and this is so funny - and tragic - WoW did a better job of copying what was good from EQ than EQ2 itself.  That's the part I cannot get over - and I ask myself - what the hell was the Eq2 team thinking?  WoW is the natural "comparable" to EQ2 that's all - for these reasons.

3.  City of Heroes.  I am just as big a fanboi of CoH as WoW - just that my real life friends do not like CoH.  I fascinated less by WoW's success and more by EQ2 shortcomings.

4.  I learn from failiures.  Failure is an unfair reference to EQ2 - but it lost the battle with WoW.  For me, I learn more by looking at trainwrecks, not successes - in anything in life.

5.  Me a pundit?  Look if I thought I was a pundit - I would be publishing my views in a magazine or going on a radio or TV.  I do not publish - nor work in this industry - ergo I am no pundit.   Somehow it is ridiculous for me to spell this out - but let's get on the same page - I am no pundit.  I post in the political forums too - but I am no foreign policy analyst.

6.  Sub numbers.  For your PERSONAL enjoyment of EQ2 sub numbers are indeed irrelevant.  But in talking about the industry - they are the ONLY metric that counts (in the absence of actual revenue / gross margin numbers).  I am intersted in the latter - not your personal enjoyment (no offense).

For the record - I do believe EQ2 could be a better game.  But they do not have the capital to get there.  Their strategy behind expansions could be fertile discussion - but I just do not have the first hand knowledge of that anymore.  Regarding implementation - to re-hash:

A.  Character models.  These guys know that there is not exacly wide appeal here.  Financing such changes appears to be the challenge.
B.  Class system.  Not sure where the dev team stands on this - but Trias above summed up my problems with it. 
C.  Gear / Armor.  Often mundane, no variety.

If these 3 issues were adequately addressed - I would play.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2007, 07:15:50 PM by jpark »

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"  HaemishM.
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Reply #33 on: January 16, 2007, 12:21:51 AM

2.  WoW.  Prior to release comparisons were all made between WoW and EQ2.  That's the reason for the comparison.  Also, and this is so funny - and tragic - WoW did a better job of copying what was good from EQ than EQ2 itself.  That's the part I cannot get over - and I ask myself - what the hell was the Eq2 team thinking?  WoW is the natural "comparable" to EQ2 that's all - for these reasons.

I'm trying real hard at the moment to get into EQ2 for the first time.  I chose conjurer for my first character because I loves me some robed caster with a pet.  My toon started with a beetle for a minion.  Granted, it was big for a beetle, but a beetle nonetheless.  So, I dived into quests, looking forward to the next summoning spell.  At 12th level, I finally got it and the first conjuration yielded a damned centipede.  I had visions of an anthropomorphic rock, maybe crumbling a bit with a deep, gravely growl.  You know, the standard D&D earth elemental.  But I got another bug.  What will the 20th level summoning be?  A large mosquito?

Contrast with WoW.  Warlock's first pet is a fiery imp, complete with random backtalking.  The next is the voidwalker:  a hulking shadow.  Now, draw your own conclusions about which game wins here in the coolness factor.

In regards to jpark's assertion about WoW copying what was good about EQ, warlocks, like EQ's magician class, have a spell that summons a floating eye that can scout.  However, warlocks, unlike magicians, don't need to release their pet to use the spell.  So, I actually used it from time to time.  It's a fun utility spell in WoW.  It was a hassle at best, kill-me-please-scryed-monster at worst disaster in EQ.

Again, I want to enjoy EQ2 but so far I'm a bit underwhelmed by it.  The background graphics are pretty cool but my character feels and looks pretty dinky.  And the more I read spell charts and class-related quest info, the more distant the cool character-specific stuff appears.  An example of this is the pointy wizard's hat.  Since I'm a big Discworld fan, that's a pivotal item for my wizard-type characters.  Yet, those are 40th level item for mage types in EQ2.  In WoW, warlocks get a class-specific one as a 25th level quest; other cloth casters can get a 28th level one at the auction house.  Hell, in UO your wizard starts with one!
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Reply #34 on: January 16, 2007, 09:15:02 AM

1.  No doubt you're a nice guy but I have no interest in your specific likes or dislikes per se.  Or anyone else who posts on f13...

Dude, why do you post on a community website if that's your attitude?  I'm not trolling: I'm interested.


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