f13.net

I've started up my EQ2 account twice in the last year for about a month each time.  And each time I am impressed with the content the game has to offer.  The second time, with the EoF expansion, was particularly impressive, with the new zones being beautiful and quite fun to explore (butcherblock, less so, but Gfay, very much so).

So why do I quit at level 25 every character I make?  I think I finally got it figured out.  It actually was hard to put my finger on...I would just get bored, but the 'why' behind the boredom wasn't exactly clear.

My take:  The combat stinks.  At first, I'm impressed with the amount of skills.  But once you get to level 20-25, the 20-skill-cycle you mindlessly go through every mob is ridiculously boring.  The skills are bland and not effective enough.

Why does WoW work for me better?  I solo'd practically to 60 with a mage, one of the most repetitive classes there is. 

1)  Distinct effects.  Frost nova is disctinct, obvious, and important.  It has good aesthetic appeal.

2)  Spells that matter.  Sure, you spam frostbolt and fireball alot.  But what's the difference between spamming fireball and a 20-skill-cycle that seems more like work than fun?  It actually is less fun, because the skills in that cycle are not reactive based on the mob, but rather simply a matter of mana use and cooldown ratio.  So it's just a whole lot more work.  BORING.

My mage has fireblast, CoC, frost nova, blink...short cooldown spells to be applied in specific situations.  These are aesthetically obvious and pleasing and distinct, but also tactically interesting.  I don't really feel the need for more spells with my mage, even though there's much less of them than any class in EQ2 has.

Bottom line:  Way too many fluff spells in EQ2.  When I press a button, I want it to matter.  I don't want to have to press 15 of them, making the most effective cooldown cycle, and do it over and over again.


I don't know why I really made a thread about this.  I suppose I'm curious what others think the flaws in this game are, and if others have the same view of combat in this game as I do.

You do make a good point. I would argue, though, that having lots of skills allows some skills to have long timers. That allows those skills/spells to be more powerful. If EQ2 was just auto-attack with 2 powerful 5 minute recharge abilities, combat would be really boring. I think EQ2 tries for a happy medium of giving you something to do and giving you abilities that can turn the tide if used properly.

Part of the problem is also that many of the class-defining abilities happen in the 40s and 50s. I have a single character, a berserker. His best skill, Rampage (every attack hits every mob in the necounter for 30 seconds or ten iterations), is a 50+ ability and it markedly increases the value of a berserker in a group or raid.

I also feel that the EQ2 abilities come across as bland.  They look okay, but none of them seem to have any oomph.  I was playing a Conjurer, and my pets were pretty weak, I couldn't rely on them at all, while my offensive spells just kicked up dust.  Compared to my EQ magician and his badass water elemental of ass-kicking and 'set everything on fire' spell, the conjurer was just pathetic.  And it's not even that the conjurer was actually weak, he just felt that way, I never had any sort of sensation that the primal forces of the universe were at my command.

In my personal play, this is a big sticking point for me too.  The rate of ability granting was originally tuned for a much slower rate of level gain, which resulted in too many abilities that don't feel distinct enough in some cases, or powerful enough in others.  One of the things we're trying to find creative, yet not upsetting, ways to address.

Loved the necro/conj pet.  I have made good exp in groups with the main tank being a pet against orange ^^^.  I only wish there was a healer pet, so I could fill in when the group lacks a healer.

I was grouped the other day with a conj who had a heal/ward pet out -- Achievements are fun. :)

Enhance: Hydromancer
Summons an inhabitant of the Plane of Water to aid the Conjurer's group. This pet is specialized in the recovery of health and power restoration with an assortment of temporary beneficial group enhancements.

Neat if it is useful, too bad I am a necro.  But I wouldn't be AL 21 in the forseeable future anyway.

The new acheivement list looks better in general.

EDIT: I shouldn't have to earn something that is a band-aid to massive flaw in your game.  You be giving to me for free just be happy to get my $15.

I think a lot of it's just art direction.  WoW's abilities have 'teh shiney', lots of flash and bright colors, while a lot of the stuff in EQ2 has a much more subdued appearance.  As an example, there was a staff that I got my conjurer really early on in the newbie island, and she looked badass with it.  Her attack animation was this swirling dervish of death with the staff, swinging the thing around like Darth Maul.  Later, I got a better staff, but her attack animation was reduced to just bonking things on the head with it.  Despite it being a more powerful weapon, statwise, I was very unhappy with it, because it had stopped looking impressive.

That's kinda EQ2's problem in a nutshell.  My conjurer wasn't actually weak, I was decent in a fight with her.  She just appeared weak compared to other experiences I've had because her pet and spells were all fairly low-key in effect.

I've said this before and hey, I'm saying it again. The lack of an overabundance of "teh shiney" is one of the many reasons I prefer EQ2 over WoW. It's a happy medium. It's not overly blinged in the armor/weapons/effects area, a-la WoW, but it's not underly so, a-la post NGE SWG. (Look! I'm a jedi, poke... poke... swing...). One obvious differentiation there though is what I like to call the "Qeynos uber gear".  (The Claymore, the Kilj, that bigass shield some pallys are sporting with the runes) I feel like I'm playing Final Fantasy or something when those get busted out.

Of course, YMMV...

I'm not really talking about equipment.  And aesthetic is just a small part.  It's mostly the gameplay involved, which I consider tedious, mindless.

I'd rather auto-attack and tactically hit a button once every 3-6 seconds than mindlessly go through a 20-skill cycle over and over again.

I'd rather fight 5 or 6 things at once swinging massive blows that stagger and incapacitate my enemy while dodging incoming attacks.  Why must I stand in place in front of 1 critter for 3 to 5 minutes and tediously hit buttons in a preordained order?

This is my favorite topic.  Isolating why EQ2 sucks so fucking bad is like a research undertaking:  can we identify the root problem(s)?

I have tried this game several times.  I would rather be working.  Or reading the telephone book.

Trias you hit the nail on the head (if we overlook the utter absence of art in the game).  Remember for EQ2 devs - they have it in their mind that SCOPE makes for fun.  You know THIRTY TWO Classes!  Several dozen spells!  Woot!  Tons and tons of Quests!

And I can barely remember any of them.  (I can remember when WoW was criticized prior to release for having too few classes).

These guys should take a hard look at City of Heroes - the best example of tight skill sets that have dramatic effects in combat.  WoW of course does a good job of this - but not quite to the extent of CoH.

The situation is so bad - that on my templar - when I get a spell upgrade (magic arrow + N) I cannot readily identify the next spell within the same spell line in my book.  Their nomenclature for the spell advances do not even follow an intuitive order.  I guess renaming the spell - when you upgrade it - makes look like there are even more spells to choose from!

Challenge:  Give me 6 spells.  Make them interesting.  I refuse to work with more than that.

I noticed this on a Monk alt I created.  There appear to be different types of staffs.  Strangely, the Darth Maul/ Kung Fu animation in using the staff is not a function of the class - but the item type itself.  Some staffs are used like clubs - "bonk" - while others are deftly used martial arts style.  My monk got a new staff and started using it like a club - so I got rid of it - and got another staff he used Darth Maul style for combat animations.

I forget the names distinguishing either type of staff and their associated animations.

The reason being that some staves are intended to be used by mages while others by more martial classes.  Still, if it were up to me, I'd probably make the wielding style based off the class and not a flag on the weapon.

I, too, grew bored of EQ2 lately.  My reason wasn't' so much the combat so much as the monotony of the grind, doing quest after quest unceasingly, actually out leveling a goodly amount of my quests when doing quests alone.  EverQuest indeed.  I probably wouldn't have minded doing quests except for two bothersome things:

1. All that running around.  My kingdom for a horse!  Oh, 3 plat?  I'd probably afford this in my 30s.
2. In certain quests, spawns were ridiculously limited.  For example, I might be asked to kill 10 mobs in a dungeon where there's only two spawned at a time.  (This is considered a bug by the current EQ2 team, but is unfortunately low on their priority list.  Supposedly the newer content, such as Echoes of Faydwer, won't have this problem.)

I could never decide on a single character, breaking continuity.  (Alt-a-holicism is often a symptom of boredom.)

The Combat in EQ2 is actually pretty fast paced.  Having recently compared the two, EverQuest 2 combat actually moves significantly faster (in terms of the hotkeys are fired off) than City of Heroes.  Variety of moves is another issue with me, but I can't of having an insufficient variety when, by level 20ish, I've got three fully loaded hotbars of moves and situational items (ex. potions).  Thanks to the Achievement system, there's an increased variety of moves versus how it was before.

I might well resubscribe to EQ2 soon... because it'll be on the All-Station Pass with Vanguard.

Like the class system of EQ2 - no doubt there are far MORE abilities to use in combat than in CoH.  Frequency of use is really not important - but if you want - my Templar has to do quick cast remove trauma several times in some fights.  Yup, that adds to the frequency - and I can do with out it.

You have fewer moves in Coh, but when your opening move as a tank can be to teleport your foe right to your feet - that's just plain cool.  We don't forget powers like that.  As a healer - I might choose to go into stealth mode to reduce my aggro in a fight - or levitate to avoid certain knock back effects (based on power pool selection).  I could rhyme off many powers in CoH because they had a huge effect on combat and I looked forward to using them.

I can't really remember anything about my Templar's ability in the absence of looking at the spell bars.

Bingo. I did the 14 day trial and came out of it completely nonplussed. I played a shaman, a conjurer, an illusionist, a necromancer, a berserker, and two or three other classes whose NAMES I've even forgotten. They all play exactly the same. Set up skills in a particular order on the skillbar and click them as soon as the cooldowns recharge. Every few fights some situational choice makes a difference, usually because of the bizzare combo system rather than because of my class. When skills had unique effects they tended to include long animations rather than flashy ones. I felt tracky rather than mighty.

I felt this way no matter what class I was playing. Click the buttons in order as soon as the cooldowns recharge unless the shape in the combo system says different this time.

The quests were fun and the storyline compelling, but wandering around the world getting in fights just left me cold. Plus the art was jarring. Scenery didn't necessarily match monsters or setting, and everything felt cramped and artificial. Overall it was unfun and uninspired. I didn't inish my 14 days.

Without going into flaming of the game, your post sums up how I felt in my trial of EQ2 pretty well as well. The most fun thing I found to do was actually foraging roots and various bits of crap off the ground in the skeleton/graveyard/undead areas of freeport.

Yeah, I didn't last through the entire trial, either.

Great summary, because you made it to what...level 10? With what maybe....15 skills? You can't tell me it's any different than playing WoW or any MMO for that matter at that low level.


You see the number of classes as a weakness? Personally I see it as a strength....they are not hard to remember if you have played for more than 2 weeks.  Issues like these are what most EQ2 Fanboys laugh at  "Too many skills! Too many classes!", get over it.


So first you say its a matter of simply clicking refreshing abilites, then you get upset (as a templar) reacting to a heal situation?

I know this all comes across like a flame, and to a degree it is.  I am just getting tired of this damn EQ2 vs. WoW drama threads. *Yawn*  Jpark, I realize you do not like EQ2, you have made it abundantly clear, on numerous occassions....but if you played it more than you took time to bitch about it, you may see it differently.
 
I just don't see all these issues you cry about.  I have options every fight, it is not a matter of refreshing icons.  For instance, My troub can mez adds, short duration charms, debuffs, drop into range and fire off arrows to debuff and stifle casters, stealth and back stab, posistional attacks, melee attacks, about at least 12 songs to choose from depending on group make-up or enocunter, which group member do I superbuff (jester's cap) in what situation.   

I dunno guys, your points aern't just valid to me, carry no weight whatsoever.

I felt the same way when I played WoW after a year of EQ2, it was an okay game, but I was used to EQ2 mechanics...EQ2 just seems more iinteractive to me (must note only made it to level 40 in WoW). More meat to combat and encounters - more options. From my bias, I just see WoW as a dumbed down EQ2 with 1/10 the content.  Don't get me wrong, obviously WoW is pretty damn good, the numbers don't lie.  EQ2 does have some issues, but get over it...not evey game is as "perfect" as WoW :P

Well, once a game enters a "finished" state (and I wouldn't call Vanguard finished, nor EQ2 in it's release state as opposed to now) it's really a matter of horses for courses. While I personally hated EQ2, it doesn't make it a shit game, just one I don't want to play. FWIW though, I found EQ2 very different to WoW at the low entry-levels. On a mechanical level on paper they may be similar, but I felt thay played very differently. But as I said, doesn't worry me if you like one more than the other, even if you like the one I don't..

If a class isn't fun to play by level 20, why am I still playing your game?

I've played a defiler, a paladin, and a swashbuckler all to 20-25.  The swashbuckler is the only one that was any fun whatsoever, and even that one was flawed.

Coincendentally, I find CoH combat to not be particularly great (for different reasons), and always quit at level 20 in that game too.  The combat is just one reason I quit CoH though...the combat is the main reason I quit EQ2.


Why?  I'm not saying it can't be a strength.  But the classes need to be distinct and interesting enough to matter.  Also, of course, more classes = more balancing issues.  Why do you think EQ2 is a better game with 24 classes instead of 12?  I just want some sort of reasoning here.


Have you ever considered that other classes in the game aren't as interesting as this and are just a 10+ attack-cycle rotation?  Becuase they are at level 25.  It's a fact.  Go play a paladin, I dare ya.  My defiler didn't use attack skills, but basically just cycled between a dot, debuff, heal, ward.  And god he was miserably bad and boring when it came to soloing.  In grouping, he was even worse, because I just debuffed and group warded over and over again.  Truly a class for the afk.

Even my swashbuckler, the most interesting class I've played, still used a 8-attack skill rotation by level 20, just with a circling move to the back now and then.  The only difference with it is that nothing lives past the second rotation generally...which is a great improvement.  But still, it's just another attack-skill rotation.

Yeah, so what I never got past level 25?  That doesn't mean my point isn't valid.  Maybe EQ2 becomes fun once you get to level 40 or 50.  Fine:  My character should start at that level then, thanks.

Trias post above summarizes my counter arguments.

So then, when I say I hate WoW because no character I ever played was fun, I expect you knobs to accept that at face value.

WoW bores the shit out of me. The quests are uninspired, the class options shallow, the gameplay derivative and the "hyperreal" art direction that people have raved about screams to me "short attention span".

Haven't you trolls got an expansion to go play in?

 :|

This is why I generally don't like others trolling the specific game boards here.  People get all butt-hurt.

Not saying all here is trolling though, but jpark.. let it go, man.

Not so much butt hurt, just incredibly hung over and tired of seeing basically the same person rehash an argument with not a lot of merit in my book. Everyone's milage varies on what they find a good game. The difference is, most of them don't hit another forum to air that beef.

Done, I understand completely. I didn't really enjoy World of Warcraft either. I stuck with it longer for three reasons.

First, each class played sufficiently different from the others that gettng each to level 20 was a completely unique experience. I had to focus on different parts of combat and learn a new stye. That I was ultimately unsatisfied with any of them took weeks to realize. From the first few skills I was aware of the flavor of a class, and had much to discover about its niche. Not so EQ2. Here's the sustained buff, here's the group buff, here's the quick attack, here's the debuff. They had unique graphics, and different effects, but their feel (and even sequence) was typically the same. Perhaps in higher level play each EQ2 class is a singular experience, but I wasn't going to slog through the low levels to find out. I didn't just have to repeat low level content, I had to entirely repeat low-level play. The thought was not inspiring.

Second, I personally found the art immersive. For the first time since UO, I felt like a cartoon hero in a cartoon fantasy world.

Third, and most unfair to the respective quality of each game, I had friends playing WoW.

That positive response didn't keep me playing the game as long as I played DAoC or even CoH... but it held my interest longer than EQ2.


Actually most of them do. Over and over again. I think "hit another forum to air that beef" sums up F13 pretty well.

Works for me, Pxib. I can respect that.

Not that I'm a huge fan of EQ2 either. Hell, feet will tell you I haven't been on since the expansion went live. Granted, that's mostly because no one from BC came back and I find soloing in the game a bit of a boring grind after 40, but I'd still take it over WoW any day of the week. Then again, I'd almost take a sucking chest wound over WoW so...

The only game that's really been able to hold my attention has been the original EQ that got five solid years out of me before I let it go.

I really, really dislike this generalization and the practice of trolling the game boards in particular, and if it's truly IS the case (and my perceptions are just out of wack), we need to start correcting this (ya know, as a community!).  Rings similar to "f13 is all about trolling"! or "f13, the only place for teh hate".  Gah.  Sure it may add some spice, but as an identity?  Please no.

I don't think "why I dislike this game" threads  are bad, especially if they bring up salient issues with the game that others may feel the need to comment about.  It's the constant interjection by people that seem to have a personal, irrational stake in seeing a game fail, that really irks me.  And you know when it's going to happen, and by who.  It's like I said in the Festivus thread, some of you are just too damn predictable.   This isn't to say that there shouldn't be a place for dissenting views, it's just that some more closely resemble vendettas than an actual desire for discussion.

Most games that deserve constant vitroil tend to die.  At least lately.  (/wave AC2)

I still need to play EQ2 to decide where this game actually stands, but I'll have to burn through all of TBC first and get sick of WoW again.  So.. around July? I did promise to play this game (I was drunk though)  :|

Edit: of course, I'm being predictable by saying the above.. again.   :dead_horse:

I didn't think I was talking about trolling. Specifically baiting a game's dedicated defenders is repugnant, and the moderators and posters are pretty quick at sniffing out and mocking that sort of game. Rather than "f13, the only place for teh hate", we get "f13, the only place for teh hate debate". On most forums a frustrated anti-game post will just get you flamed... here it gets you flamed with a cross-referenced, link-heavy list of bullet points from professional curmudgeons.

That sort of hate is worth its weight in pizza and beer.


I spent an equally pathetic amount of time playing UO. The first game gets a pass because we don't know any better. To capture that level of my attention, my time, and my cash again, a new game would need to make me feel like a MMOG virgin again. DAoC was my first 3D DIKU. CoH was, and is, its own novel combination of play styles. WoW is a genuine pop phenomenon.

Those surprises and discoveries squeezed more life out of me than EQ2 managed.

I was just trying to express why I didn't like the game, which actually took me a while to figure out.  I was curious if it was just my experience or others.  Then everyone starts flaming and getting...butt-hurt.

?

Anyways, the problems with EQ2 are in many ways quite subtle in my opinion, and I really want to like this game.  This is why I think talking about the problems is useful for A) Figuring out exactly what they are, and B) Theoretically thinking about how to fix them.  I don't think WoW is a godsend by any means.  But they designed their simplistic and small amount of classes better than EQ2's large amount of 'complex' classes for about 95% of people I'd guess.  I think it's reasonable to ask what the problem is.

Finally, I know EQ2 devs lurk here, so I posted thinking I'd get a response or a read, which I did.


With that out of the way...

If you don't want to read about people complaining about your chosen game, don't fucking click on a thread that is obviously going to complain about your chosen game.  I think it's impossible to make the title any clearer.

So where can I discuss the incompetence of the dev team for EQ2?

In the general gaming section? 

My arguments without merit?  Please - if EQ2 is unfairly characterized as you suggest - let's talk about those subscription numbers :)  It is very clear - without any room for equivocation - that this game has not done well.  The question then is, why?  That's my interest.

I come here to talk about the industry.  If you play this game naked - good for you - but I am interested in case studies illustrating success and failiure in this industry.  That's the context for this discussion.  Your personal experiences - or anyone esle' - are only relevant to me insofar as they act as a possible focus group to reflect the broader player base.

The initial design decisions behind this game upon release were truely remarkable.  The egregious nature of these decisions should not recede from discussion - and serve as great material in anticpating future mishaps.

If I show passion on this matter it is because it has less to do with EQ2 than it is my inability to suffer incompetence.  I did the same thing with management teams when I was an investment analyst.  Why should I be any gentler here?

Let's have two forums.  One for guys that wnat to share warm fuzzies about their game - and a second forum devoted to post mortem analysis.

Trias, I appreciate your input. Wasn't you I was bitching about.

jpark on the other hand, you should know if you were the "serious gamer pundit" you seem to be claiming yourself to be rather than just the WoW fanboy that you actually are, that sub numbers are fairly low on the list of reasons why a game sinks or swims.


I call bullshit on this. If it was just an intolerance of incompetance as you say, you wouldn't take every opportunity to compare it to WoW.

As I've said multpile times on this forum and a few others, EQ2 is not "my favorite game" not by a long shot. That honor goes to EQ and pre-CU SWG. I liked the former because it was my first "visual MUD" that didn't have the top-down, less-immersive feel of UO. The latter because it changed the way the game was played. Skills instead of levels, a scalable con system based on what weapon you were proficient in and what other skills were handy. And yes, 32 classes which were hell to balance. Both of those games innovated where WoW merely copies and attempts to perfect an old formula.

So, to sum up. If you seriously dislike a game and it's implementation. Talk about the implementation and what is lacking about that. Don't use it as an opportunity to wax poetic about whatever game it is you're currently slapping the ham for.

?

Where to begin.

1.  No doubt you're a nice guy but I have no interest in your specific likes or dislikes per se.  Or anyone else who posts on f13.  I try to put together trends in my head based on that info - with its severe limitations.  It does not matter if EQ2 is your favorite game or not - I am not talking about you - I am talking about this specific game.

2.  WoW.  Prior to release comparisons were all made between WoW and EQ2.  That's the reason for the comparison.  Also, and this is so funny - and tragic - WoW did a better job of copying what was good from EQ than EQ2 itself.  That's the part I cannot get over - and I ask myself - what the hell was the Eq2 team thinking?  WoW is the natural "comparable" to EQ2 that's all - for these reasons.

3.  City of Heroes.  I am just as big a fanboi of CoH as WoW - just that my real life friends do not like CoH.  I fascinated less by WoW's success and more by EQ2 shortcomings.

4.  I learn from failiures.  Failure is an unfair reference to EQ2 - but it lost the battle with WoW.  For me, I learn more by looking at trainwrecks, not successes - in anything in life.

5.  Me a pundit?  Look if I thought I was a pundit - I would be publishing my views in a magazine or going on a radio or TV.  I do not publish - nor work in this industry - ergo I am no pundit.   Somehow it is ridiculous for me to spell this out - but let's get on the same page - I am no pundit.  I post in the political forums too - but I am no foreign policy analyst.

6.  Sub numbers.  For your PERSONAL enjoyment of EQ2 sub numbers are indeed irrelevant.  But in talking about the industry - they are the ONLY metric that counts (in the absence of actual revenue / gross margin numbers).  I am intersted in the latter - not your personal enjoyment (no offense).

For the record - I do believe EQ2 could be a better game.  But they do not have the capital to get there.  Their strategy behind expansions could be fertile discussion - but I just do not have the first hand knowledge of that anymore.  Regarding implementation - to re-hash:

A.  Character models.  These guys know that there is not exacly wide appeal here.  Financing such changes appears to be the challenge.
B.  Class system.  Not sure where the dev team stands on this - but Trias above summed up my problems with it. 
C.  Gear / Armor.  Often mundane, no variety.

If these 3 issues were adequately addressed - I would play.

I'm trying real hard at the moment to get into EQ2 for the first time.  I chose conjurer for my first character because I loves me some robed caster with a pet.  My toon started with a beetle for a minion.  Granted, it was big for a beetle, but a beetle nonetheless.  So, I dived into quests, looking forward to the next summoning spell.  At 12th level, I finally got it and the first conjuration yielded a damned centipede.  I had visions of an anthropomorphic rock, maybe crumbling a bit with a deep, gravely growl.  You know, the standard D&D earth elemental.  But I got another bug.  What will the 20th level summoning be?  A large mosquito?

Contrast with WoW.  Warlock's first pet is a fiery imp, complete with random backtalking.  The next is the voidwalker:  a hulking shadow.  Now, draw your own conclusions about which game wins here in the coolness factor.

In regards to jpark's assertion about WoW copying what was good about EQ, warlocks, like EQ's magician class, have a spell that summons a floating eye that can scout.  However, warlocks, unlike magicians, don't need to release their pet to use the spell.  So, I actually used it from time to time.  It's a fun utility spell in WoW.  It was a hassle at best, kill-me-please-scryed-monster at worst disaster in EQ.

Again, I want to enjoy EQ2 but so far I'm a bit underwhelmed by it.  The background graphics are pretty cool but my character feels and looks pretty dinky.  And the more I read spell charts and class-related quest info, the more distant the cool character-specific stuff appears.  An example of this is the pointy wizard's hat.  Since I'm a big Discworld fan, that's a pivotal item for my wizard-type characters.  Yet, those are 40th level item for mage types in EQ2.  In WoW, warlocks get a class-specific one as a 25th level quest; other cloth casters can get a 28th level one at the auction house.  Hell, in UO your wizard starts with one!

Dude, why do you post on a community website if that's your attitude?  I'm not trolling: I'm interested.

EQ2's spell system has an apprentice -> adept -> master system.  The pets usually look different as you buy or get the higher level spells.  I got an adept for my first pet which changed him from that dull beetle into a fairly gnarly looking spider (which was also much stronger).  Here is a link with most of the pictures. (http://eq2.eqsummoners.com/viewtopic.php?t=439)  Necromancers have pretty good looking pets but that's mainly because they are evil.

I mainly played a conjuror in EQ2 and I really liked it, you can solo with your own tanks (tellurian line) or group and bring out an AoE or scout type pet and do great DPS.

Looks like I am the sole poster that actually enjoys EQ2 round here.  So many points made against it, but many of these points are ridiculous to me - just nitpicking.  Sorry you don't get your pointy hat right away, sorry you don't get the earth elemental pet right away, sorry your staff was not what you hoped....yes you actually have to work for shit. I just can't defend these points, nor should I have to. 

Just to touch on the number of classes issue.  The obvious answer why this to me is a strength, choice.  At first, it may seem over-the-top, but if you play longer than the trial you quickly realize what the strengths and weaknesses are.  Each class is pretty distinctive, with obvious similarities between sub-classes (crusaders, bards, mages, etc.).  Once you have a solid understanding of each class, you can tailor your gaming experience to that strength.  Want a tank that groups almost exclusively? - Guardian, hands down best group/raid tank, but I wouldn't dare going around soloing with a Guardian, possible but very slow.  Want a tank that can solo? choose a monk or bruiser - Want a tank that does a little of both? than choose a Paladiin or Shadowknight.

You talk about class balancing. Yes, it can be problematic with 24 classes...obviously.  But this is not fucking WoW, again let me repeat...not WoW.  Not every class can effectively solo to 60 in 2 weeks.  You are not forced to group in EQ2, but it is heavily encouraged.  I see class balancing as overrated anyway.  I like unqiue experiences for each class.  My newer main, is a troubadour, and can't solo at all really, but total bad-ass and groups and it is very satisfying for me to see how much more efficient a group is with a troubadour mixed in.  Yes, EQ2 has "niche" classes.  Do some classes still have something to be desired? For me yes, but there are people that swear by classes like defilers, which both you and I find pretty boring, but some just see defilers as the best debuffers/warders in the game.  That's their preference, it just come down to choice.

The argument of WoW vs. EQ2 is getting old.  It is frustrating for EQ2 players to see WoW Fanboy's jump in and say that EQ2 sucks, when it is obvious that they really don't have a fine understanding of the game.  Most people I know, many who have migrated from WoW, are amazed at the pure amount of content available...and that's what people stay for and enjoy about it.  EQ2 definitely has it's issues, but alot of these issues seem to be the focal point for future development (such as armour variety).  It comes down to a matter of preference, plain and simple.  The number of subscribers of a game doesn't dictate my preferences, it is a good generalization that WoW has more mass appeal, but for those of us EQ2 players - that really doesn't mean shit.

Not likely to change your perspective on it at all, but that's your choice - and you can keep talking shit about it and I hope you get satisfaction out of seeing yourself as a legitamite game critic.  I just see some of your nitpicking as laughable, and have to jump in once in a while to defend it.  Sorry bout the rant :P

You just missed the point of gaming right there.  It's a game, not a job.  I want to have fun, not "work for shit".  Character development is one thing, mindless grinds to "earn" the right so do more is a bad gaming model.  If players are having fun, they will jump through the hoops to get to the endgame.  When it starts feeling like a job to get there, there's something seriously wrong. 

Forced grouping, minimal character customization, and timeless grinds all render this game less than what it could be.  The complete lack of an enjoyable endgame further limits potential.  I really like what this game was trying to do, but there just aren't enough gameplay options. Especially for casual and solo-minded gamers.

Not sure I missed the point of gaming - might have miscontrued my point.  You don't get those spells or upgrades right away, not really work, but actual playing of the game.  You don;t get some of those things at level 1, just like any other game. The Earth Elemental pet comes in time, not sure what level...but its just a simple pet upgrade coming through regular levelling.   The pointy hat, is on the other hand part of a high level quest line.  Not sure I undertand your point at all, no you don't get a level 65+ hat right away, sorry.  Has to be something to look forward to.

Minimal Character customization? I didn't even get into Achievement Lines, plenty of options to customize your character.  Want more DPS out of that Guardian than select achievement points that increase DPS, at the cost of not increasing defence. Pretty simple.  Pick 1 of 24 characters that best fits you - add achievement points for new abilities to further refine for customization. Its actually getting pretty good with Achievement lines.

Timeless grinds? Not at all.  Started my troub week before Christmas, at level 50 now, with 50 achievement points.  There is no "grind", not once am I forced to stand in place and down mobs for XP...there is ALWAYS a quest to do, whether it be solo or grouped.  So there is no "grind" or "forced" grouping....plenty of content for both.  Your just not going to see the same rewards soloing, or all the content - but you do have the option of buying some of the better equipment while soloing.  I soloed a fury about 95% of the time to the end game.

And the comment about End Game? No there is not there is not a limitless amount of end game.  But from my perspective, it has more end game than the majority of MMO's out there.

What you are doing is proving my past point - It is easy to armchair critic the game, but it seems you don't really have an understanding of the game in it's entirity.

EDIT - I am done with my rants and crusading for EQ2, not really my style.  Just wanted to jump in defence of a really good game, not a perfect game, but it has kept me coming back for a year and a half anyways (with a stint of WoW in between).  Either play the game or play another game, just tired of seeing the same unjustified statements.

So about how many new characters should you have to get to level 30 before you can expect to have a solid understanding of each class?

The game is a grind because combat IS, NOT, FUN.  It wasn't fun for a bruiser, wasn't fun for a defiler, wasn't fun for a paladin, wasn't fun for a swashbuckler.

How many times do I have to restart to find the class that is fun for me?  Playing 1-20 over and over again also isn't fun by any stretch of the imagination.  I'm guessing a troubador or an enchanter would be a much more fun class for me to play, presenting more tactical options and less mindless skill cycling.  Obviously it's my bad for thinking that all classes should involve more than mindless cycling button smashing.  And if getting to level 25 three times and quitting out of boredom each time isn't giving the game a chance, I don't know what is.

I'd much rather have 10 classes that are A) more distinct, and B) more customizable to different gameplay styles (although I agree that the AA system is cool, especially with EoF and KoS combined), than 24 classes that I don't really know what I'm getting myself into with, whose jobs meld with each other in odd ways.


Finally...A grind is only a grind if it's not fun to play.  WoW and EQ2 are very similar in what they present at this point (lots of quests/mini-achievement, both solo and group challeneges), so in theory, they should be about the same in terms of grind.  But they aren't for me.  I don't care to play WoW much these days.  But I did get to level 60 with a character and never felt a need to start over because the class didn't suit me.  And honestly, based on my knowledge of WoW classes and talent trees, I'm confident that I could have leveled any class to 60 the first time around without quitting out of boredom.

I think that is better design than having a class for every type of player (while said player, if a noob, has absolutely no way of figuring out what that class might be, or any reason of suspecting this is the case).

My statements here are about as justified as you can get.  Get over it, go play your fun class.  I'm glad you found the one or two out of 24 that was right for you.

Endgame = raiding for gear.  That's it.  What's the rest of it? 

As for the rest, be careful what assumptions you make.  I was in EQ2 beta.  Played SEVERAL characters to 50 and higher.  Perhaps it's the fact that I've been playing online games since there were online games to play and am tired of the same old systems.  EQ2 offers nothing that I haven't already seen.  In some places it has done things better (lots of quests and abilities, improved crafting, collection quests, player housing) and many it hasn't improved (too few armor skins, steep treadmill after 40, linked encounters to easily determine baf, etc).

I have often wondered many times if player housing was an often requested feature in WoW?  Not that player housing is ground breaking by any means, but can be cool to have a trophy room, even if it is too show off to yourself.


Not sure exactly what this statement means, but I assume (the bring along friends) social aggro mechanics in EQ2. The mechanics were changed a few updates ago. The Aggro system was changed to a more "social" aggro system.  Humanoid mobs will aggro other humanoid mobs (calling for help concept), so some encounters are a little bit trickier nowaday. After the haphazard update, some areas were insane.  One taunt or arrow pull  would pull an entire room or half a zone.  It was a welcomed change for me though, now pulling is become a bit of an art form again.  Tanks are learning to body pull, Templars can actually use thier pacifies, chanters must be on the lookout for difficult pulls, etc.  So I am not sure what your present understanding is, but it has changed.

Sumbitch.

You need to understand you can't understand what most of us are saying if you levelled to 50 in under a month. You are Different. Just because someone is different, doesn't make their statements unjustified. My view of the flaws of EQ2 are totally justified, and I actually do think it's a good game, except for those flaws. And I do play another game, so what's the point?

The point is that the flaws in the game that I otherwise like deter me from playing, thus justifying my statements. I'd assume others that take exception to portions of EQ2 feel similarly.

I agree the statement was harsh, and unjustified in itself.  Frustration getting to me a bit, that's always why I prefer to lurk and avoid posting.

FWIW I'm playing EQ2 with my gf as our full time MMO until LOTRO starts up to try.   I'm Scupper on Oasis.

The people here are very wary of the details.  I find that posting around them has helped my writing a lot.  Don't let me or anyone discourage you.  Different opinions make this place more interesting... especially when people are able to properly articulate them.

EQ2 is one of those games the abject failure of which I outright enjoy and view as positive for the genre.

"OMG this isn't WoW u cant solo to 60!!!"

Fine, then it can go sit in the subscription cellar.  Nobody will miss it.

Meh.  It's actually a pretty solo-friendly game.

Hm? I wanted to give it a chance last year and gave the trial isle a whirl....too short..I spent less time playing it than downloading.  :heartbreak:  I hope Play the Fag trial has bigger zone to explore for the trial people so they can decide better.

That's too bad as your avartard is a big ol' jar of lol-lipops.

Surprisingly, it is.  Lots more better than EQ back in the day ever was.  My only complaint is EQ2 is too "1st level D&D n00b"-centric.  Don't make me go through dinky-dom yet one more time, kthxbye.

Though I really have a strong dislike for the way EQ2 excludes solo players from dungeons and from killing some of the cooler names mobs in the overworld, it had /really/ improved from release when I was playing last winter. There are enough quests, and many of them are actually interesting, to keep me going to level 30 twice (once good, once evil). Soloing with my wizard was tricky, as always, but my shadowknight did pretty good. I do miss the 'old' feign death, it was my single favorite thing in EQ.

So...

I am going to give Vanguard a whirl when it comes out.  I appreciate what EQ2 has strived for - but missed in execution.  Maybe Vanguard might have success there.


The short answer is that I look at this as a series of business cases and look at the outcome in the market based on revenue generation.  It is of no interest to me if guys enjoyed that game.  If everyone posts that a game is awful - but I see it has good market share / revenue generation - then that latter is more relevant to me.  I do enjoy the passion shown here for said products - but the market and product dynamics are what interest to me.

:|

Britney Spears pwns!

Someone above really hit the nail on the head for me.

In wow, I can play my priest as a shadow priest or a holy priest and it gives me a different experience.

In EQ2 or COH, I hit the same 4 buttons and that's it. Sure I may have 3 bars of buttons in EQ2. But one row is big damage against X monster type, 1 row is my buffs, and 1 row is my attacks.

In WOW every button is something special. It's me doing something. In EQ2 and COH/V - I have to be hitting those buttons or I am doing no damage. I get carpal tunnel playing EQ2 it's pure button smashing. Same with COH.

WOW is button smashing, but mostly it's me moving my mouse around to say, ok... Bless, Judge, Bless, oh shit, heal, oh shit, purge. It's a bit more involved. Not hugely, but enough that it's more interesting to me.

I think I made it to around lv. 50 something not long after the decline of Bat Country.  I took a break from the game fully intending to come back when Echoes of Faydwer released (and of course I never ended up going back).  Now I can barely remember anything about the game (save for that one time we had a Bat Country group going and kept trying to do some quest that involved an instance on a boat with several waves of fairies or something attacking us, and then the boss would invariably kill us at the end every time we tired).  Literally, almost nothing about the game has stuck with me.

And that's about all I can say about the game.  It's the most forgetable experience I've ever had in an MMO.

I remember almost every heritage quest I did, those were great.

Enchanted Lands access quest final fight. This and the Zek one are optional now.

I'm pretty sure it was optional when we did it too.  We just didn't want to give up at the end.

Totally optional.

I soloed it at 50. Just 'cause that boss had to FUCKING DIE on my watch.

As for non-memorable, that's exactly the way I feel about WoW. Not one quest is memorable. The only thing I do remember about the game is the stupid Cow NPCs saying "Strength and honor" a lot. That and the twink-heavy PvP.

I have to disagree about memorable-ness in EQ2. The Heritage Quests were all fun, but they have been mentioned. Half their fun may have been the fact that I was getting an EQ1 item, though.

I remember the nights our guild dinged level 10, 20 and 30 pretty clearly since half the guild was out grinding writs together and watching the guild level bar.

I remember my first fight against Lord Everling because several of us completed multiple HQs as a result.

I remember our first few frustrating attempts at Deathfist Citadel - once again, HQ related.

I remember taking over 2 hours fighting down through the depths of Solusek to talk to Nagafen. Talk about amazing content almost no one sees. Too bad.

Like most MMOs, the strongest memories involves others, either with or against them. At least for me. I am not surprised that someone (and I am not claiming that Vel did this) who solos 95% of their time in EQ2 doesn't have strong memories about the game. I would argue that most powerful RL memories do not involve being alone, too.

I'm enjoying EQ2 now, but I'm getting tired fast of only having 30FPS at "extreme performance" while every other game like Oblivion flies on my PC at high quality levels.  I think SOE may have shot themselves in the foot over  having custom graphic dlls when they probably should've just licensed Unreal or Alchemy etc.   Lot more stable.  And it sounds stupid, but laggy and poor graphics are wearning at my fun.

I find it interesting that people see a difference in this regard between eq2 and other games. And I suspect it's not because of the combat mechanics, but because you didn't find what was going on around you interesting.

As an eq2 priest-class in a combat situation, you are still choosing between short term buff, short term debuff, direct damage or dot, cure effects, efficient specialist heal (ward, hot, reactive etc), or inefficient direct heal.

Plus if your cat herder is good enough you have the HO-fu thing going on as well.

I'm not saying this makes you wrong to say that it felt like button mashing to you, but the underlying mechanics are basically the same. Which just leaves the context you are doing it in.


I do think it's fair to say you have to work harder to find interesting instances/dungeons/encounters than in other MMOGs; but I think that is about design of the environment, not design of the combat mechanics. One problem with the typical EQ battle is that they are either too easy, or flat out impossible, it's hard to find battles that are challenging - not least because many of the most efficient xp spots that groups will drag you to are well known static spawns with repetitive and uninteresting combat.

As stated, I don't really find the combat mechanics uninteresting.....I like the vast array of subtle effects, with a few big ones to add to the mix.


I think you really nailed it with that statement.  Either a breeze, or flat out can't win.  I think they are trying to address it a bit, by making the orange cons a bit easier, and greens and blues a bit harder. 

It should proably be more down the lines of specific mob abilities that exploit or play to character strengths and weaknesses.  Heavier debuffs, and reliance on specific resistances (ie divine, mential etc.) might make it more interesting.  One character might wipe the floor with them, others might have really trouble beating them.

I have a quibble with this. EQ2 is no different than any other MMO that I have played in this regard. Players (either groups or solo) hunt in areas where exp will be maximized - either through mob exp or quest exp. That means picking battles one can win. MMOs are designed to enable this (level segregated content.) Occasionally, while fighting safely, someone may overpull or get a re-pop or wanderer. When that happens, a group will succeed or fail based upon the class makeup (crowd control) and/or player skill/luck (does the zerk have rampage+open wounds available? does the scout have evac available? does the guardian have his AE taunt available?) unless the addition encounter is an epic mob, in which case, yeah, you are going to lose. That is not a flaw in the game. It is a "flaw" in the players. They are inherently conservative.

I agree totally. In a way, I like it. A lot of 'underutilized' zones are my favorite areas in games. Quirky, exotic, not mainstream because the risk/reward is off, and I base my gameplay on fun and interest, not risk/reward.

But I don't like it when designers start to develop content around that conservative mindset, because then you start being required to play that way.

Oh, saying WoW combat is more interesting than CoH/V combat? That's crazy talk!

The majority of players' conservative mental approach is outside your sphere of influence as a developer - so complaining about it would be stupid and pointless.

If the most xp efficient thing to do is boring, then players will do that, people who want to do anything else will fail to get a group, your game will fail, and you will die alone and miserable in a debtors prison.

At the launch of CoH, the most efficient way to get xp was to do circuit patrols in city zones. Dull as dishwater, but efficient, so that is what most groups did. Cryptic fixed the problem by giving greater rewards for things that are more fun (missions). Later on, they realised that players were avoiding the more unusual or challenging villian groups - because variety introduced risk, and it was harder to optimise your character for a wider range of villians. Solution? More xp for whatever villian groups don't get killed often enough - like with missions, this pretty much removed the bias players had against missions featuring DE, rikti, longbow etc.

I didn't know CoH did that. Very cool idea.

Indeed.  While I love WoW, Co* pulls down its pants and pattles its little behind in the dynamic animation of combat, particularly for melee toons.  I played tankers solo in Co* and had fun smashing.  I can't stomach melee types in WoW or its kin.  Animation in fantasy settings are typically skewed in favor of casters, so that's what I wind up playing.  EQ2's berserkers are kinda-sorta fun, though.

So many people don't get this. A game is supposed to be fun from the first minute. That's why most people hate long, boring tutorials. 25 levels to get to the fun? No thanks.

I agree about the EQ2 combat from what little I played. (Up to level 18 or so) It was just an optimization problem, do your skills as fast as you can to maximize damage. It is the illusion that you are doing more without actually doing more.

In FFXI you can do very little during combat, fight for a full minute without using any special ability. But when you do use them they tend to matter. Or if you play a Red Mage and try to solo you are using an ability every 5 seconds and they *all* matter. Basically depending on your class you might not do much but when you do it means something.

EQ2 feels easily reduced to a simple optimization problem. I have 3 special attacks, with cooldown X, Y and Z and damage A, B and C. My mission: spam them as fast as possible. That's it. As a fighter I had IIRC 3 different attack specials: a kick, a slash, and a slash that hit multiple targets. There was really no difference between any of them if you are fighting a single MOB, other than damage and cooldown.

Note that doing things like adding different damage types or elemental weaknesses doesn't really address this, it is still a simple repeatable optimization problem only now it is a bit different for different mob types. That's just another way of increasing apparent complexity without adding any real depth.

The number of abilities you have doesn't really matter, what matters is how differentiated they are. A kick and a slash that both do damage might as well be the same attack. Now make it so that the kick can interrupt an enemy special attack but does a lot less damage and you may have something.

I just loaded up a bargain bin game I got a while ago: Gladiator Sword of Vengeance. Within a minute I was doing combo spin moves, jumping off guys and combo attacking secondary targets. MMO combat just sucks compared to any decent single player game. Even co-op stuff like XML2 is better than most mmo. Part of it is a latency thing, but c'mon. I remember playing Oni and thinking how cool my EQ monk would've been if he had those moves (which, c'mon devs, lets see more combat like that awesome game...4-way attacks, grab an enemies weapon while he's still holding it and shoot his buddy...what a game).

If you had those sweet combo moves but only 4 classes and 4 races, would you be happy?

You only need one good class and race that suits you, really.

Exactly - every special should be a choice of "What do I want to do this round", like the global spell recycle in WOW. Not, "Oh the timer is almost up on this ability, Grog smash button." One way a bot could play better then me, the other, I might actually have to think a little.

Continuing with my griping about diku mechanics, there is also the fact that you pretty much just stand there. Even if you have interesting combat choices, you really don't get the benefit of the environment. For instance, in BF2 I may be somewhat limited in 'attacks' (knife, rifle, grenade for my assault kit, for instance), but the ways in which I can implement those attacks is so varied because of the environment, and also stances. So while running and gunning might get me killed by the 'boss mob' say, a tank, lying low, sniping out support infantry and lobbing in some grenades is a good 'special move'.

I'm not great at fps, but it's consistently been the best implementation of real-time combat imo. Even Planetside (though in disclosure I played a grenade launcher guy in that game, too...avoiding the cone of fire once again!).

It was one of the first things my girlfriend noticed about CoV. "Why do you just stand there?" And that was with a traps MM, I moved around a bit to place traps...Having a non-gamer perspective around is great.

I think having people who have played action games but never a MMORPG play them for the first time would uncover some very obvious issues that MMORPG devs and players have learned to ignore. Like "why did he take damage 5 seconds after you attacked him?" and "how can he hit you facing the wrong direction?"

I have a new theory:  SOE bought Vanguard to make folks feel better about playing EQ2  :evil:

Seriously, you're like the fucking Eddie Haskel of the EQ2 forum. Find a better hobby. Don't you have a crusade to burn or something?

I don't necessarily want FPS or fighting game mechanics in an MMORPG.

You can say that MMORPGs seem dumb to people watching, but Final Fantasy looks pretty stupid to someone just watching for the first time as well. 

I don't really care if it looks or seems dumb to the uninitated.  That has nothing to do with my enjoyment of an RPG.  I just want the RPG mechanics to be interesting, have some tactical depth, and maybe a little aesthetic appeal.  I'm not saying that mixing genres couldn't be fun (played deus ex or system shock 2 recently?), but I don't think that's really the core of the matter here as much as design decisions are.  CoH actually failed for me partially because it was stuck in between two worlds, and I really wish it would have just went one way or another, to be honest.  Of course, YMMHV (may have varied).

And again, WoW did a better job of RPG mechanics than EQ2 did, even with it's simplistic style.  Not that I love WoW.  But, imagine if someone took the baseline of WoW (important abilities, cool looking abilities), and gave the system less spam and more depth.

I think in an MMORPG it's perfectly fine to not be spamming something all the time.  Auto-attack is a very reasonable convention, simply because this is an RPG, not necessarily street fighter. 

See, but that's you and you're entitled to that opinion. If I hadn't played UO and EQ and AO and SWG before WoW, I might feel the same way. Unfortunately, I did play those games and more. WoW is more of the same except sped up and flashier for the ADD crowd. Of course, that's my opinion. I could be wrong, but that's the feeling I get when I play it or watch other people play it. The constant ding grats is still a treadmill, Blizzard just disguises it better.

Well, to clarify, I don't think WoW is innovative at all.  But I do think it does get the 'distinct, interesting' abilities part down, generally speaking.  I did play EQ, and WoW is much better at this.  WoW is simple and flashy, however.  It is all about lots of short-term gratification (in all three levels:  Combat, Quest, Level) , until bait and switch raiding sets in at 60.

But my point is that the problem with WoW or EQ2 isn't that they are using RPG mechanics.  It's that they are using them poorly.  In EQ2's case, lacking the distinct and impressive part.  In WoW's case, lacking depth.  But I think WoW really demonstrates that distinct and interesting abilities should be the number 1 concern in RPG combat, the baseline for adding depth to.

I agree with you almost completely, except I think depth should be number one.

You got your chocolate in my peanut butter...

Great. But we've got how many auto-attack, stand-in-place games out there in mmo? Even Tabula Rasa is going to be in that category, for most purposes. I'm still very skeptical about Huxley.

What I'm saying is if you have great combat mechanics, like the chick from Oni (Konoko?) as a model for monk/martial arts-style melee, Soul Calibur as a model for weapons style, shooters like BF2 (with cover, concealment, prone/kneel positions) as models for ranged...and then you put that on top of a solid rpg world with questing and lore (unlike, say, Planetside's empty bland world)...that's what /I'm/ talking about.

And then add minigames, from Chess to Poker to Golf (where you actual go into a Tiger-esque instance with your avatar as your golfer, spend ingame dough to upgrade your clubs, etc)...

That's when mmo begins to shine imo. It's the magic idea I had when I first heard of the genre, and the genre has really not done anything to progress beyond MUDs, imo. How many meeelions for EQ2 and Vanguard? Give me a break.

That was good :)

Not sure if this is a rehash since I didn't bother to read the entire thread yet (it's late) but for me it comes down to a simple difference...


WoW is easy, EQ2 is not (at first).

I finally got around to playing WoW late last year and took every class up to about 30, except paladin. Currently I'm playing a 42 Druid and a 43 Hunter. There was no barrier to entry in WoW you could just jump right in and level with ease. You don't really have to learn a thing, equipment drops like candy and you just stop by a trainer every 2 levels and buy the best level of spell available. There really is nothing to it. Same with crafting. Harvest enough stuff, click a button, come back 10 minutes later and that skill is maxed for your level range. You don't even really need to quest to figure things out.

EQ2 on the other hand is more difficult at first. To start you only have apprentice 1 level spells which is a really big disadvantage starting by level 10 (an hour or two later). Now you have to figure out the upgrade paths there, where to get the materials to upgrade, etc... Decent equipment can only really be had by questing at those levels as well unless you tradeskill. It really is a tough game for someone starting up their very first character and without putting in a bit of effort to figure it out you will REALLY start to struggle around level 20-25. If you don't keep up with your skills AND equipment that's when the downslope of your power vs. mobs will really become aparent.

On the other hand once you've played one character through EQ2 and can provide the spell upgrades leveling can be really easy depending on how far you take the twinking.

I fully expect a lot of wowtards would never be able to get a single char up to level 70 in EQ2.

Just my 2 cents...

You do realize that Oni, Soul Calibur and BF2 are all entire games on their own right?

Also I hate it when people mention tech limitations wrt MMORPGs, but there really are some limitations.

I agree with you in spirit - and I do think you can come up with a fighting system *far* more advanced than what MMOs have today. I've been thinking of some ideas that would be fun and very doable.

Holy shit! I never realized that. I guess that explains the long load time between zones.

Ha ha.

This was meant flippantly but I think it's actually cogent... at least where Soul Calibur is concerned. There are notable load times before each fight as the game processes the animations for just two characters' fighting styles... and they don't have to deal with attacks from multiple directions simultaneously. Oni has more options, but fewer animations. Importantly, the main character never has to interact with enemies fighting as acrobatically as she.

Even ignoring the high-ping latency problems inherent to online play, we have yet to see the systems you are requesting combined in a single player game. I would not be surprised to see a more worldy version of Planetside produced along the BF2 model... but it will be a long time before we see Soul Calibur Online.

RISE FROM.. Er.. well,  4 posts down.   Damn shallow graves.

So I downloaded the "Play The Fae" trial and gave EQ2 another shot.  It's come a good ways from when last I tried it. Being able to pick the class I want to play from the get-go helps A LOT.  As does the actual neutral-evil-good races. (Pretty sure the Half-Elf I made last time had to be "good") 

Dittered around with the Fae for 5 or so levels and the starting area felt a lot better than the old island.  Very pretty, too. Switched over to playing a half-elf shadowknight and that was LOTS of fun for a bit as well.  Kudos to the game on coming a long way.

It still won't get me to switch over from WoW, though.  It was all about the little things, though, and not so much that I thought the gameplay sucked this time.   That's a VAST improvement.

Things that niggled at me still.
*  Although it's a lot faster (part of that is probably the new rig) it was still fairly unresponsive.  Keypresses felt like they took a little long to activate, and mouseovers took a second or two to pop-up.
*   Little touches absent.  Things  like strafing animations.  A few times I was running forward and sideways and my avatar just 'glides' on that 60 degree angle rather than shifting hips and body position.  It was like my character had a rod rammed up its ass.   
*  Armor still wayy uninspired.  Blobby, and simply 'meh' .  A game this pretty to have armor this ugly is a crime.  Even low-level WoW armors look snazzy, if a bit plain.
*  SWG syndrome.  All these detailed sliders and cusomizations for a face you hide under a helmet.  Even if you DON'T hide it (and I swear I thought there was a 'hide helm' option, but I couldn't find it after that first time)  the tweaks are so small that you may as well have gone the oldschool route of offering a limited number of different face skins and saved some resources.
*  The Interface;  My god, there's so many flips, levers, sub-menus and toggles it's distracting.  I gave up on tweaking settings because it just wasn't presented that nicely.   Then there weren't some nice convienances, like "open all bags" and "close  all bags"  I love that key in WoW. it's the best.
*  It feels 'dark'  Maybe I should've upped the gamma, but it felt like I couldn't see anything clearly.  Better than when I felt it was 'brown' though.  :-D
*  Mob names faded in-out too late.  I think there was a toggle for this, but again I'm not sure.
* Apprentice II spells/arts.  Why bother?  Maybe later levels there's a bigger difference, but it felt in the first 5 levels they were just deisgned to take money from the foolish who say "Oh it's II, it MUST be better!"  Hell there was only 1 Shadowknight Apprentice II art that had any difference from the I arts.  The rest did the same damage and took the same time to cast and refresh.  Boy I feel bad for folks who just up and buy them.
* Tradeskills.  The original newbie isle had a nice intro into them.. I didn't catch a trainer on the Evil Isle. Did I miss it? If not, then pity the noob who fills their bags with rocks, wood, plants and other what-not that has "NO VALUE"   If I did miss it, then it's hidden somewhere funny, and that's not good.


So it's not any one big thing, it's just a lot of little things at this point.  You've come a long way, baby.

The command to show/hide the helm is I, believe, /show helm or possibly /show hood.

As for the rest of your comments I mostly agree but I haven't noticed the unresponsiveness thing.  The standard armors are still sort of Meh, which is something they are addressing in the future with a new PC skeleton to make creating armors easier on their art dept.

If all you'd played for a long time were EQ2, I don't imagine you'd notice it.  I'm so used to the quickness of WoW, and the instant info popups that the half second to second delay on those is noticeable.   It was the same way with skills. The delay isn't much, but enough that it stands-out when you're used to something else.

See, I knew there was a hidehelm, and I was sure I saw it as a toggle not just a / command, but as I said. I'll be damned if I could find it after that first time for the 2nd character.

Before coming back to EQ2 this time around I had just done a stint in WoW to check out burning crusade so lets not go down the path of how my expectations are inferior because I have no concept of the Glory That Is WoW.  There is a sidestepping/strafing animation btw and I really don't notice any delay in the pop-ups or sluggish button clicking.

It really sounds to me that you are looking for nit-pickie things to say "Meh" about.  You really don't need to justify yourself, if you prefer WoW go play WoW.

I've never seen any delay in anything in EQ2. It's very responsive. I'm honestly not sure of what you nean. LOTRO, now there's a game with delays. Could this be something with your particular computer?

App 2s? Well they're vendor trash. There's several dozen shops in WOW where NPCs sell crap weapons. I feel sorry for the people who buy those too. The real upgrades in both games are available in the AH/broker.

Hiding your helm, your illusionary form (ie, bear form for shamans, cat for druids etc), your cloak, or the guild label on your cloak is under EQ2 menu/persona/Options. Persona is your standard character sheet so it's not that obscure. There's a / command as well. You have the option to show a helm, to show a hood but not a helm to show no head cover. Lots of options, several of which I don't think are available in WOW. LOTRO wins over both games because it lets you not display your boots--all important for the hobbity folk.

Open all bags has options /togglebankbags will change it so you automatically open all bags if you go to the bank. There's a key to open all your bags (alt b? control b? B?) Honestly, I don't know what the command is in either WOW or EQ2 because I never use it.

The faydwer is dark because it's dark. There are other places that aren't. The night elf starting area is dark and the orc one isn't. Same thing.

I recently resubbed and cancelled less than a week later due to boring combat.

Sure, sure, diku combat is inherently boring but EQ2 somehow manages to suck the very life out of you.  As a 31 bruiser I have about a dozen combat moves, none of which are particularly special, none of which are sync'd up to button mashing, none are in the least bit responsive to the situation.  I could write a macro to chain them up and go and do something else and I'd still never die.  Mobs don't run, call for help, or even notice their buddies getting whacked.  They stand there and take a pummeling. 

Combat is two simple equations.

1. combat length = mob hps divided by player dps
2. if monster dps times combat length > player hps then run away, else mash specials and collect loot.

In the end the only way I could die was by me pushing the envelope, "hmmm I wonder if I can take 3 Level 33 ^^ mobs", "oooh, I can, now I wonder if I can do it with long timer specials down"

I think that maybe the Bruiser is just way to easy for you.  Neither my paladin or my assassin can handle anything remotely heroic that isn't borderline green/grey and even then there must be no chance of an add. Yellow con solo mobs are about the extent of their solo abilities, they both do very well in groups though.  I rolled a bruiser specifically because they are one of the best solo classes in the game (Possibly Wizards are better?  But no feign death) but have yet to get past level 10 with him.

I agree with you on the button mashing and fights coming down to an equation almost but I can't think of one Diku based game thats not that way, WoW Warriors and Rogues certainly are as are all the classes form LoTRO that I beta'd.  The Assassin has a lot of positional attacks that require careful use of stuns and moving around the mob on tougher fights but I'm not sure what else you can expect from Diku combat.  Necro's probably require the most strategy to operate efficiently due to life/mana taps and pet control and etc but I haven't played one.

That's why I really only want to play the grouping game in EQ2.  A lot more "OH SHit!" moments to overcome and named chasing is like playing slot machines.  But the under 70 game is empty to say the least.

OH fuck you, dude.  Get the chip off your shoulder, it was an innocuous comment and you come in here dickwaving.  I was trying to guess at something and I was wrong. Oh fucking soooo sorry.

Yes, they're nit-picks.  I pretty much said that.  It's the small stuff that gets to you over time, and it's the small stuff that keeps me from playing things.  I wasn't looking for excuses not to play or any such bullshit, I was offering up an opinion. Cram it sideways up your ass with your ego, shitbrick.

I am not going to get into this argument again....

just wanted to note that you can adjust your tooltips to display instantly or set a delay in the options, or make it more opaque or more transparent, or what info is included in the popup...etc.

As mentioned, there is also a hide helm or cloak in the persona options.

Open all bags, is "b"

Never had a problem with darkness, but that can be adjusted with gamma as you mentioned.

The "sliders and levers" in the graphics options can be avoided by just using the default Extreme Performance up to Extreme Quality.  Make adjustments from there and you can save your custom setups.

I love the Apprentice I-IV, Adept I-II, and Masters...me likey loot and upgrades. Personal choice on that one I guess, but they are somewhat useless in Tier 1.

Not sure what you mean by response time when clicking combat arts/spells....they come up instantly with casting times, never ever had issues with that...unless yer mashing all your skills at once and not waiting for refresh timers...dunno?  You want unresponsive... try LOTRO (which I am really digging), I push a skill and it might go off sometime in the next 5 seconds, not that it is a bad thing, just different from what I thought were lighting quick responses in EQ2.

Heh.  'Tard.

The UI is probably the most flexible around in any MMORPG, everything can be customized without the need to know xmls or whatever.

I stopped playing after 18 months because of the boring and "unresponsive" combat. It's not so "delayed" that I loathed it, it's just doesn't feel right. As a berserker I had too few "instant" attacks and too many bars to fill. Not like it, I am not spellcasting, I am whacking for Brell's sake.

Finally, as I said multiple times, your attacks are usually not synchronized with the whacking animations. Not like it at all. Feels like I am "directing" the fight, not actually doing it. More like Dragon's Lair than Double Dragon. Not like it.

But as I said, it took 18 months to stuff me up. It's a hella of a good game. A pity they didn't nailed combat.

I was grouchy and your post set me off.  Kiss kiss.

I agree with this just as a general complaint about Diku combat in general.  It's the same 'hit A and go get a sandwich' problem.  Even with all the clicky buttons now in these games it really hasn't improved the mechanics.  It's just broken it up into smaller segments.  Heck, many games allow you to macro the combat commands back into one button anyway.

Having lots of abilities doesn't really improve anything if you just sit and hit them in succession as soon as they pop up.

Sadly, as much as I loved EQ2, it's personal. I played them all, as I am sure you did too. EQ2, save for uncanny LoTRO, is the one with the less satisfying combat I've ever played. And, as I said, that is basically because of the unsynched combat/visuals and for the general lack of "true instant" skills/arts/spells.

I obviously agree on the general dullness of MMORPGs combat, but EQ2 represents a step back in my book, while LoTRO is two giants step back.

It's fascinating how different people perceive things because I find when I play WOW or even more LOTRO that I miss all the different tools and feel of my rattie berserker from EQ2.

I'd agree about LOTRO btw. Which is funny since it's the game I'm actually playing. But let's be honest, it's AC2 reskinned.

If EQ2 had Vanguard's combat/classes, I'd probably be playing it right now.

This game is stuck between people like Bandit, who like the game as it is and are actually subscribing, and all the people like me who have subbed and quit because, at least in part, that they found the combat dreadful.  They can't make any big changes, because they damn well know what happened to SWG, and it's not worth it to totally alienate your core playerbase.

But man, would I like for them to totally overhaul their combat system.

I dunno, diku-style mmo combat all seems the same to me. I don't get what you guys are saying, I think.

The only mmo that's had decent combat has been Planetside, CoH and  :nda: . I don't see EQ2 going to that, so I feel they should just stick with what they've got.

That was great, I'm going to try to use that at least twice today.

Do you want VG's combat or VG's classes? You put a / between them like they are the same thing. I don't see how VG combat is that much different from EQ2 other than the weakness system, although, to be fair, I play melee in EQ2 and caster in VG.

As far as the classes go, they are quite similar in concept: tanks, melee dps, monks kind of in the middle. The only real difference is druids are healers in EQ2 and dps in VG. The disciple is a very cool re-interpretaion of a healer, I must admit.

VG's combat, at least as a fighter, is more "instantaneous". When I hit my "whack" skill, my char does that. I don't have to wait for a cast-like bar to fill.
Plus, when I hit the whack button, my char on screen whacks. It's not like, as it happens in EQ2, I see the whack animation while still seeing lots and lots of orange numbers coming out of the mobs for autoattacks landing but not showing.

EQ2 combat feels to me more indirect, or "visceral", than VG or WoW one. The latter is way better to me. I think to a certain extent that is true for all those people who found EQ2 combat boring.

Falconeer, you can't possibly be serious. Even if VG has an 'instant' attack, its just hiding the timer from you. Instead of placing the timer at the beginning of the combat move, its placing it at the end of the previous combat move. Its entirely cosmetic.  You can argue that that's a better design because it creats the illusion of instant responsive action, but the mechanics are identical.

Yes, Engels. That's it. I don't mind when the system rolls my dice, if it's instantly or a couple of second later (it's seldom more than that). But I can't stand my finger pushing a button and the feedback of my action reaching me those 2 seconds later.
It's annoying in EQ2 and it's frustrating in LoTRO (which is the game I am playing right now cause it has so many good things beside that pet peeve, that will drive me away anyway eventually, sooner or later).

But, as I said, part of my gripes are for the "slight delay", while the bigger part of it is for the too emphatic combat visuals which don't reflect my actions/autoattacks the right way (for my tastes). The often mentioned "lack of synch".

EDIT: I almost forgot! Enqueing attacks. That SUCKS. If a skill is down IS DOWN. Enqueing sucks sucks sucks!!! ( Grrrrrrr... )

The devil is in the details.  It's always the small touches that create the biggest difference in perception.  I think Falconeeer's hit on exactly why I felt the game was 'unresponsive.'  If not the lack of sync on combat actions, then the delay before as opposed to after.   It's part of the reason I couldn't stand playing melee WoW, too many "on next swing" actions.   Spell cast timers I'm ok with, but melee cast is lame.  :-D

That is, in fact, what he _was_ arguing.

Having to wait for visual confirmation that an action was received and processed creates a gulf of evaluation - you don't know what effect your keypress has had until the action actually _happens_.

If there's a delay at the end of the previous combat action, that's _better_. Because after the previous combat action resolves, shouldn't I be considering _what to do next_?

Placing the timer at the start of the combat action instead of the end of it gives you approximately zero time to actually evaluate the situation, since after the combat action resolves the server can accept another combat action immediately.

This, in part, is why I didn't like LOTRO combat.

--GF

Fair enough, but I do get tired of VG's bonking sound, along with the Big Red Text across my screen that hollers at me 'You can't do that yet' every time I hit the next action before the previous action's cool down timer is still running.

Glazius, I hear what you're saying, and I'm enclined to agree, for the most part.

Ah.

Well, that's not happy design there.

I'm speaking from a CoX perspective as far as waiting before/after goes. The "global cooldown" is animation time of a power - powers cool down individually. If you activate another power during animation, it queues for execution when the animation is done. If you hit yet another power, it kicks the first power out of the queue and takes its place. So, the "queue" is exactly one power long. You can also set exactly one power to "queue by default". A power's effects generally take place sometime in the middle of its animation, so if you know what you want to do by then or before then you can queue it up and it'll just chain.

I can see how _actual_ global cooldowns might play hell with this little miniqueue, though.

--GF

Falconeer is free to judge MMO combat mechanics on any basis he wants, but this strikes me as serious cosmetic nitpicking. I find EQ2 combat visually busier than VG, actually. I still have the issue in VG where I have to hit the hotkey twice to actually get the spell/skill to fire if I have clicked elsewhere on the screen previously.

EQ2 combat is very busy visually for my assassin and not busy at all for my paladin (when soloing, grouping is always a blur).  Both are melee classes but both look very different on screen.  A typical assassin combat is over in 10-15 seconds, often less, sometimes there will be 8 or 9 floaty damage numbers on the screen at once and a continuous string of particle effects from the various skills and procs (most assassin skills have a .5 second timer, practically unnoticeable).  In comparison with the paladin it is rare to have a combat that takes less than 60 seconds with a steady stream of damage and very predictable intervals between animations other than the default attacks and those are almost always either the heal or the damage shield.

Needless to say, the assassin is a much more visceral experience in combat.  What I am saying is that perception of the speed of combat in EQ2 varies greatly by class (and probably by level).

As far as the animations matching what is happening on the screen the only diku style game I can think of that did that very well was CoH/V.  CoH/V doesn't really have a traditional auto-attack though, as I recall every attack in that game must be triggered so it's much easier to match up the animations.

I like(d) EQ2.  We started very late and ended up hitting 50 in Permafrost the night before Desert of Flames launched.

We then went to 60 rather easily in DoF, and without a 24 man raiding guild, were relegated to running the same few instances every night for gear/masters.  Took a break for WoW and just recently came back for the free offer from cancelling the Vanguard accounts.

I have to agree with the opinions of those who say there are too many weak skills.  I am glad to hear that consolidation is at least on the developer/designer's minds.

I also think the spell progression should be done away with until at least level 35 so that brand new players who are very poor can at least enjoy their character at normal (Adept 1) spell/ability power until they can make some money.  On Oasis, Adept 1's even for level > 20 spells sell for at least 4 gold which is a lot of money for a brand new player.  Twinks can still utilize the low level Adept 3/Master 1 market.

I'll bite, it's lonely talking to myself in the design forum.

I downloaded EQ2 about 3 days ago, IIRC, this is the 2nd time I've tried the game, although I can't remember the first at all.

From the moment I booted the launcher, I was not a happy panda.  The download got to roughly 10% and then slowed to a snails pace, 77 hours to download? Baby jesus is crying somewhere.

After waking up the next morning, doing some quick googling, I discover that this is a rather well known issue, with an easy fix, exit and reload.  Simple enough, but this isn't a beta, I expect a working client.

Next comes character creation.  After choosing which midget race I wanted to play, I get to the appearance screen.  Wow, I think the best term to describe the level of customization when it comes to appearance would be "underwhelmed".  So after a few minor tweaks, I get to class selection.

Holy shit.

I've never played EQ2 before, I didn't read a bunch of guides online, simply because I shouldn't have to.  I'm left to pick a class from a huge list with nothing but vague descriptions to go on.  I haven't even logged into the game yet, and I already know for a fact that I'm going to have to reroll.  Kickass.

Finally, I decide upon coercer, DD/CC classes are almost always fun, and generally decent for some solo play.

I wanted to give this game special treatment, I really wanted to like it, I'm bored, WoW doesn't do it for me, and Vanguard can only be explained as blatant sabotage by SoE to funnel people into EQ2. Apparently, it worked.

So off I go into the world of Everquest, adventures await me, there are hopes to crushed, dreams to be smashed, and cute little fluffy things to burninate.

First impressions are oh-so important, and my first impression of EQ2 upon logging can best be described as a bad internet dating scenario.  You all know what I'm talking about, you find a gal with cute pics, chat for a bit, and decide to meet.  You're feeling pretty sporty at this point, it seems like you found the holy grail of internet dating, cute chick that isn't a total cunt.  Scoreboard you.

That first date rolls around, you're a little jittery, you put your best foot forward, only to be kicked in the nuts with the truth.  Shes a fatty.  I don't mean chubby, a little thick, we're not talking about 20 or 30 vanity pounds.  Shes. A. Fatty.
Fuck.

You try to reassure yourself, thinking "Looks aren't everything!  She's got a great personality, that's enough justification to like a dog, even for fucking Jules man, and he's a bad mother fucker, so it's got to be good enough for me!"

That's still a hell of a hurdle, but you've gone this far, and it's not like anyone is going to see you.
Off into the world I trudge, tweaking my graphic settings to 'Extreme Quality'.  Sure, it glitches a little bit, but think of it as e-drunk, sometimes you gotta do what ya gotta do.
Onto the tutorials, finally, a chance to fight something, lets put that personality to use!
A trio of sparring partners stands before me, showing no fear, I unleash a Mind Shock upon my unsuspecting foe, expecting his mind, overwhelmed with the fact that I just told him Santa isn't real, to simply cease to be.  Preferably, by way of exploding.

Little did I know, that the joke was on me.  Instead of brain melting, head exploding, fire erupting from ears goodness, my spell got switched to 'Mashed Potato Fling I", and apparently, I'm a rather inept flinger, because there was a significant cooldown on the only possible way I have to damage my opponents. Great.

Still, undaunted, I continue, this time picking the largest and most menacing sparring partner.  Flinging a glob of my death potatoes with the grace and skill of a hyperactive 9 year old, I quickly notice that he is not amused.  Ow, Ow, Jesus that hurts! I think to myself, as he pummels me mercilessly while I sloppily sling goop in face, ever so slightly moving that hp bar of his.  Not to be bested by a dumb brute, I quickly spring into action.  I sing a quick lull-a-bye, putting the brute to slee..err..well, he just stood there, pacified, frozen in fear while I wind up my tater-slinging arm.
Splat!
Sleep.
Splat!
Sleep.
Splat!
Sleep.
Splat!
Sleep.
Victory is mine!

I made it up to level 5 before I finally couldn't take it anymore.  I got duped, I should've run when I saw she was fat broad, but damnit,  once you put in the effort, you might as well just stick your wang in it.  Once.  And not call back.

Feel free to tell me why I'm wrong, how much fun I really was having, and how I'm a noob for not wanting to earn my fun.  I'm going back to progress quest, my talking pony rapes face.

Edit: Typos - it's 7am, I don't do 7am.

Please play more crappy games!  I  :heart: your reviews! 

Thanks (:

I'm thinking of writing a review for ninja gaiden: sigma on ps3, but right now even thinking about playing that game makes me search out ps3 controllers and throw them at things.

Sounds like you should have played a wizard.  You would have been 1 or 2 shotting those mobs.

Coercers are supposed to be pretty good later on but there is that whole start off weak and get stronger thing going on and they aren't really a DPS or main combat class.  They're crowd control with some DPS and that isn't until 'later'.  But yes, coercer is probably the least played class in the game, I don't remember how many classes there are but you did manage to pick the one no one else uses.

edit: I also disagree with the - I shouldn't have to do research to make a choice between 20 options, they all should fit me regardless of who I am and what my personal play style is - line of thought.  The 20, or however many there are, options are there so you CAN find something that fits your style without have to make everything mush to fit the LCD.  Maybe the descriptions in game could be expanded a bit but they do tell you basically what a class does - CC, AoE DPS, Single Target Ranged DPS, Tank++, Tank light with DPS, etc... the actual melding of that particular archtype with your play style is what the research is for.  The game isn't just hop in and play a few hours and you're done, no MMO that I know of is, and that depth of choice, as with all choices, puts the onus on you to make the correct decision, is a necessary component of what these games are.

Awsomely fun review, Nerf. I too have revisited EQ2, trying to see if the damned date has lost some weight, but alas, a fatty potato-flinging lass she remains.

Rapes face?

You're not wrong, EQ2 sucks.

Buh-bye.

Oh, I like EQ2 a bit, but I still enjoyed the review. 

I should've inserted this quote:

Ya don't like it? Play something else. It's really that simple.

Had a positiviely EQ1-like weekend in EQ2 camping the Sage in Castle MIstmoore. He drops the class legs. Like many of the named in Lower Guk, it is a bit of a fight to get to him, but once you are there and clear the room, there are just 3 spawns to cycle through, 2 singles and the Sage/PH. Unlike EQ1, though, none of the spawns have a fixed timer. The singles are 8-12 minutes and the Sage/PH is 13-17 minutes. I joined the group at 5pm. Two of the members had started at 8am. We were there until 10:30pm and only one set of legs dropped in my presence. In fact, we had 13 PHs and only 4 Sages in those 5 hours (we wiped once and there was some other downtime so the spawns/time won;t match exactly.)

Keep in mind that SOE did something excellent with the class sets. The drop rate considers what classes are in the group and which of those in the group already have their piece! So if 5 out of 6 have their legs and the legs drop, the 6th guy is guaranteed to get his. The two guys who started at 8am saw three legs drop before I got there but those winners left so they never benefited from the higher odds. You need friends who have their legs to stick it out because every person in the group who has theirs helps the odds for the others.

The evening was VERY EQ1. All of us were vets of that game so you can imagine the reminiscing. The only difference this time was that we were all on Ventrilo so only half the conversation was typed. Now I am not saying I want to go back to the EQ1 days, but I tolerated it because I am without the family for a week so I kind of enjoyed the retro aura of the whole thing.

Honestly I'm fine with doing research and browsing forums to check out classes in MMORPGS. 

But you never really know if you're going to enjoy a class until you play it, unfortunately.  I mean, the paladin sounds like fun on paper, but it's boring as hell in execution.  And when you have 24 classes, that's a whole lot of room for lots of classes you don't like.  WoW's system of less classes, more distinct classes, and talent specs to adjust for playstyle I think is a much better idea.

Christ, I'm pathetic.  I came back twice for more!  Maybe I thought she'd lost a few pounds.  Or I was just that desperate.

I have read trough all these posts and I am TRULY baffled...

So many people have absolutely NO CLUE what EQ2 is about.

I doubt many people even read the description of the skills they get, heck, maybe most can't even read cause EVERY combat art in EQ2 makes a difference.
You can hit and mash every combat art you have and "feel" they are useless etc... but if you would take a minute to examine just what it does and try to THINK (not that most of whom diss  EQ2 look like they can think) you would see that adapting the sequence can make a huge difference. My Paladin can do 1,5 K DPS when done right, most useless players who just want 4-5 bright shiny spells and don't want a deep focused game will be lucky to get 500 K DPS while pushing just buttons.

EQ2 may not be instantly gratifying and hell you can't log on and ding 60 after moving 2 steps and killing 3 mobs. But at least it is rewarding unlike some other games I won't mention. Hell I agree games should be fun, but without any difficulty, without any "work" or any kind of involvement and reading and studying of combat arts and classes you can't expect the same amount of achievement. You want to be able to run a marathon without training. Sure go ahead play that other game...

(http://www.terranuts.com/forums/images/smilies/pmimioja.gif)  Hello!

 :popcorn:

Hello to you too, and enjoy the popcorn  :-D

Oh, you have no idea how I maximized my dps.  I'm one of those people that has to do everything perfectly.  I don't half ass things.  I like to be that guy on top of the damage meters because I am obsessive over doing the little things that no one else in their right mind does.  I'm the guy that's crazy enough to actually do fucking math and enjoy the process.

And to maximize your dps, I basically pressed

1,5,4,=,3,7,8,6,2,9,-,0

over and over again.  I didn't even have to look at the screen.  I just stared at my refreshing hotkeys.  God I owned. 

Oh, and EQ2 is one of the easiest games I've ever played.

The others you played being Pong, Pac-Man and Mario Bros?  :evil:

Hell, considering those games are more difficult in core gameplay than 99% of playtime in any diku out there, I should just say yes.

If you had one neuron and could read the manual you would get more out of the game, and understand more of the difficulties and the core gameplay. Stick with those games if you find them better and post on those subsequent forums  :-D

Either you're missing the point or you don't read well.  MMOG's of diku origin just aren't all that complex.  He's stating as much and I think most here that have been playing/developing them since the MUD days would agree.  So if you're just trying to raise your postcount, please do it with some added value.

I HAVE PURCHASED CURRENCY IN AN ONLINE GAME

Wait - what are we talking about?

Well it depends how you would define complex.
I am a doctor anesthesiologist and have been playing PC games for eeeh what 20 years or so...

TBH no game is ever complex; certainly when you compare it to human physiology, biochemistry and the likes.
So yeah EQ2 is not complex. But compare it to any other game on the market bar maybe Civ, MoO, Galciv and some other it's as deep as any game can get, in fact it's the only game i have managed to play for more then 2 years and still get hooked. WOW? Yeah it was deep allright. Deep shit.


Oh and  for your info, I don't care about postcount amounts, so don't worry  8-)

Few here are fanatical about WoW, so save your bile.  Also lose the signature file.  They're a waste of bandwidth and not appreciated here. 

On a separate note; I'm guessing that you're either not a native English speaker or a premed.  Noone that is a physician would ever call themselves a "doctor anesthesiologist".  Besides, that doesn't make your opinion any more valid around here.  It only means that you stayed in school too long. 

You can never stay too long in school, that's where you are wrong.
And where exactly in my post did I say that my ideas are more valid then others???
And thirdly sorry I'm an MD Anaesthetist... is that better, and yes i'm not a native English speaking person, I speak Dutch, French and German.

It was implied in the fact that you even brought it up at all.  Like "I'm an MD so I know what complex is."  Who cares if you're an MD.  There's no reason to bring it up unless the topic is relevant.  This is a gaming forum. 

FWIW I do respect the fact that you're multilingual though. 

Get rid of the sig pic. 

Aha!  Does this mean I can have a sig pic?  Wait.  It was my sig pic that made sig pics not allowed, wasn't it?  Well, if you say yes, I want this one:

(http://projects.isr.umich.edu/eym/index_files/cgraph/lovedoctor.jpg)

I'm jealous of all the doctors around here.

So much for Paladin pride. :vv:

Hay guyz I got sig 2

(http://vanguard.tentonhammer.com/files/gallery/albums/article-illustrations/titan_grunk.jpg)

No that's where you are wrong, I brought it up to compare complexity, human physiology and complexity of gaming.
It was NOT implied to say I am better or more clever. In fact most doctors I know are total @"#  :-D

NO, DON'T DO THAT

(http://www.thenonentity.com/signelovedoctor.gif)

(http://www.terranuts.com/forums/images/smilies/harumph.gif)

(http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/7695/woohoogrunktz8.jpg)


And now back to your regularly scheduled charts.

THATS THE SHIRT I WANT!!!!

Why don't we just snip all the interesting t-shirts we could make from f13 and post them all in one thread. Not the sticky one in GD because it is too muddled up with stuffs already, but a true, "post an f13 shirt idea here thread" with a picture and a short description. In fact, I think I'm going to start one now :)

Why wouldn't you arrange your hotkeys so you could just hit 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,-,=?   :evil:

There are definitely CAs/spells that shouldn't be used in some situations and should always be used in others to maximize dps, so in that sense I agree with the new guy. But figuring this out isn't that hard - especially for a non-newbie MMOGer - so on that sense I agree with trias.

For example, a tank that uses an AE attack against a single mob encounter is an idiot since AE attacks have longer cast timers and higher power cost than single target CAs. That should be so obvious, but yet some players just spam their keys. That is sort of the baseline understanding of the game. At the other end of the spectrum you have players that watch their combat spam very closely and try to fit CAs in between the auto-attacks. I understand that I will get more dps if I do this, but I don't do this on every mob I fight in the game. It would make the game tedious as hell. That's not to say I spam all my CAs back to back even when I want to be lazy, but there are plenty of times I never even look at the combat spam in the chat window.

So useless players are doing 300 times as much damage as you? Wow, that's pretty useless.

Yes, yes, I think I know what you actually meant there, and I'm going to call you on it.

Post your computer genius man skillchain, and what you imagine the HURR PRETTY COLORS skillchain is.

We'll go from there.

If you have plenty of power then why not use the AoE on a single target in between refreshes of single target attacks?

If there is nothing else filling that space and power is not a concern then it's extra DPS.

The only real strategy is putting your debuffs on before hitting the big damager(s) but only IF Fight time with Debuff time < Fight time without Debuff time.

For mobs below a certain threshold it's not worth debuffing them first, the act of debuffing may actually be longer time wise than just hitting em with a few big punches.  For mobs above a certain point you may not even be able to hit them constantly until they are debuffed.

Unless you have a really slow 2-hander, you will lose at least one auto-attack cycle. The AEs I have are 2-3 secs of cast time. My auto attack unhasted is 1.5 secs.

Oh, come on. I know you have all these saved somewhere, and you giggle over them and rub your hands together in glee.

Like I have said before, I like the nuances of having a shit-tonne (metric shit-tonne) of skills at my disposal.   I learned  how my "useless" debuffs could be employed effectively, how to maximize my combat chains, what mob type had certain weaknesses, how to work better with other classes.  I felt like I was actually gettting better and "skill" was being used.  The game was about subtle nuances to me, when combined effectively, you could really blast out solid and effective DPS...even on a troubador.

Admittedly, I also felt like some of the skills and combat arts could be combined.....and it seems that they are moving that way with Kunark expansion, I just hope they don't go overboard.

I think we just keep arguing semantics on this topic though.  It does come down to preference - one is not better for all.  Many people hate the "button-mashing" because they have been engrossed with WoW for a long time, from the other point of view, I played mostly EQ2 so I found WoW combat strange and alienating a bit. I did not like global cooldowns at first.  Now I am playing LOTRO quite a bit and found their combat horrible at first, but getting used to it more and more - but I still wish I had a plethora of useless skills at my disposal.  I get more enjoyment out of choosing from a large arsenal of abilities.

Speaking of maximizing DPS, there is a x2 raid encounter (Bonesnapper in Fallen Dynasty) that penalizes the raid for exceeding 5k DPS by spawning adds (I have no idea how someone figured out the threshold.)  At the same time, the mob pulses an AE that saps HP and power, more HP the closer you are to the mob and more power the farther you are from the mob. So you have to keep your dps down and outlast the power drain. The first time we ran out of power. The second time we exceeded the 5k DPS, got adds which meant we once again ran out of power. Third time was a charm.

The thing with EQ2 is that sure you have a ton of skills but only about 25% of those are going to be useful during a typical solo fight so you can pretty much ignore the rest.

Another 30-40% will come into play when grouping, 25% or so are just utility (run speed, regen, calls etc...) and the remaining 10% or so are really only useful in raiding or very specific situations.

So average joe soloer is going to see a minimum of 40-50% useless skills on his character. Sure maybe my Swashbuckler can debuff a mobs magic resistance or wisdom but there's really no reason to do so unless I'm grouped with a caster.

Bonesnapper is a great encounter....one of the few raid mobs I got to actually use my troub's master elemental chorus (cold mit+).  Probably the last raid I was in before I took a break from EQ2, not that was huge raider or anything. 

The Corsolander in Labs is another mob I can think of that maximizing DPS ony wiped the raid (massive damage shield, tank could only taunt, no melee to hold aggro).

l
Agreed.  Wouldn't argue that.  Is it a problem though?

EDIT - responded too quickly, I do see your point to a degree Delt.  To many useless skills for soloplay? I guess if you primarily solo, then I would have to agree. You could remove them from your hotbar, and setup a group hotkey bars.  I just don't see a problem adding group or raid skills as well, in addition to your primary skills.

As the resident solo spokesknight (SK, geddit?), it's not a big deal. I throw the group-specific stuff on the end of my buff hotbar (hotbar 4, not visible normally) and forget about them. There're maybe four total. Maybe I'm unique in that I cast spells and melee, so I use my debuffs pretty extensively, but it's usually when I'm stacking dots as high as possible, a very rare occurance. But I like having the extra few abilities I don't normally use, in case things get hot.

Mostly I use a handful of abilities regularly, but I'm a very conservative player. Coil, Pact, HO starter, Taunt/DoT (for HO ender), Siphon Str, Summon dumbfire skel, Kick, Bash, ok maybe I use a decent amount regularly. If things get hot there are another four or five; then there are my three AoE I use extensively in encounters. And of course Feign and Harm Touch, which I rarely use but are my bread and butter when needed.

Second step of Bloodline Chronicle, a named summoner in the middle of two other summoners + adds. Then there were the ton of wanderers. She was only a blue (-1lvl) v mob, but with all the adds...I somehow bow pulled her without any of the wanderers (who were all even con), then HT her for 2950, instakill. I was all wtfquestupdate, had to chuckle. I'm finally starting to feel a bit powerful, taking on some even-con ^^heroics and once even a low blue ^^^heroic. Somehow lived to finish the fight against the damned epic elephant horde Oly pulled the other night, wiped most of us. Oly's nuts btw. I'm rambling now, time to go home!

It's not about fluidity, it's about repeating the same fucking thing over and over until you dream about it.
For example, the MUD I used to play oh..8 years ago, a pure pvp mud, gathering of resources to buy heals and then fight. To clear my favorite area (blackthorn) it was, eeeennegwwwwsgneeeennnnwwwsgdgsgngeengsgsgneegngugssgnnwwwwwwwssgnwgeegwnnnwgennwwwugdeeesseeeeeennegwwwsgnngswgsgnwugeegsgnnngdgeeegnnnngwwwwgssssgeeegugdssssssse buy 4 all

Macros are for fags.

So they just un-moderated the EQ2 chat channel so people can actually chat again.  Boy, was that ever a mistake!  It's NEARLY as fascinating as the old Horizons chat channel was.  They definitely need an Schild-like tormentor, though. 

My trolling is limited to Zombie Survival games right now. :|

Well, they closed it up again that same day.  The one poor girl in charge couldn't even handle the amateur trolls in there.  God only knows what you would done to the poor thing.

It has now been a month since my guild began raiding twice a week, Wednesdays and Saturdays. The raids are not mandatory so I guess that still makes us casual. We do not use DKP, just /ran 1000 if it's an upgrade but you can only win one Fabled piece until everyone who can use the item has won something. Wednesdays are for short raids like Gorenaire, Talendor and Harla Dar. Saturdays are for Labs and Deathtoll, the final KoS raid zone. Labs and DT are also required to finish Claymore and we still have people working on those.

Why am I posting this? I never thought I would ever get to this "stage" of an MMOG. I can only play 2-3 times a week so these raids are almost 100% of my gaming time and I find it a lot of fun. Most of that is because my guild keeps succeeding even though we haven't followed the traditional raid chronology and we do not have the "perfect" raid force. We are often filling 4-6 spots with pickups. Raiding in EQ2 is just not the chore it was in EQ1 at all and even being 1 of 24 people, I get upgrades often enough to keep me interested. As far as I can tell from the loot database websites, my helm (from Deathtoll) and legs (from Labs) are the best I can get before the Fabled class set pieces that drop in EoF raid zones (as compared to the Legendary set peieces that drop in the group instances.)

We try Freethinkers Hideout (the first EoF raid zone) this month for the first time so we will see whether skipping some of the KoS stuff is practical.

Sounds cool. My only trepidation about raiding is the time it takes up and the people generally drawn to that playstyle. I'd join you guys as a pickup member if I wasn't only level 42 :)

I got my second and third exquisite chests evar (solo) on Sunday. If SK's feign was on the same timer as brawler's, I'd say it was the perfect class. That's really been my only gripe up to 42, and that's only for tackling heroic content solo.

Nice on the Exquisites. I have only ever seen those in the group or raid instances.

My first one was a couple months ago, off the triggered named spawn in Nektulos, which is now a 27^ after the revamp. Hmm...I wonder if all those old heroic nameds still have their old loot tables or if they just missed him because he's a triggered spawn? I killed him four times over a couple days (the people who triggered him didn't know or couldn't handle him) and got: exquisite, small, small, treasure.

Sunday, one was from a wandering golem and the other from the named book, both in RoV. Trying to pharm Chorulle-style. Did ok, but there are a couple nasty linked rooms.

My name is becoming associated with unsavory acts.  I do not farm per se, I just help good items reach the hands of those who need them the most..for the right price of course.

At 42 I think you are just about the right level to start solo farming the chamber of immortality in Varsoon. I think the mobs are all low to mid 30's. Thats a guaranteed exquisite chest once per day.

No, you do not farm. You are just very good at taking named heroic content that up until recently I've been unable to do. It was meant in a way of respect, not derision, though I can see in hindsight it was bad form.

However, your nickname is now Jose Farmer. Sorry bout that :P

Also, I'm pushing Wyll to 49 for invis totems, so I should be able to crank out some cedar beating sticks if you need them (also...use the SoW and other totems in the guild bank!). I made a cedar beater (I just like saying that, it's a cudgel) for Vith, imbued and adorned...but it looks so silly (little tier'dal, giant shield and bat). Wish I could get enough feyiron to bother bringing up my weaponcrafter, still not worth it imo. Also, don't forget he can make ranged ammo. I've been providing some feyiron arrows to the guild bank (again, take 'em if you need 'em!), but for t5 ammo I am asking for at least the fulginate ingredient.

Also pushing Phiz to 38 for t4 jewelry. Jewelcrafting is odd. More fails than woodcrafting (which is very fast), but levels faster because there are far more pristine combines per level. 37 is a grind because there's only 5 or 6 pristines, I'm rebuilding my rest exp right now but should be able to hit 38 (and combat class jewelry) by the weekend sometime. I'm basically holding off on adventuring for a bit while I bring my crafting legion up to snuff, I'd ideally like to get Phiz up to 48 for t5 jewelry.

I should have ended that in a smiley or something.  I have no problem admitting I am a slut for exquisite and ornate chests in this game, and AA experience, so I find myself scouring dungeons looking for named to kill.  It will be a bit still before I need new weapons (34 now so I have a ways to go before I'll need anything else).  I am looking forward to 37 or 38 tho where I have decided that I want to try and reach the forge in DFC solo (with SoW and Invis totems of course).  I have a plan on how to do it, just have to see if it will actually work or not  :-)

You mentioned something about being able to use the forge without aggroing the guy in the room? I don't know if there's a respawn in DFC, but he didn't respawn in the time it took me to forge the full DFC set. If that's the case, you can feign in no problem.

If you have to take him, I could help if I'm on. Might be rough, but the two of us could probably handle it (38^^^ iirc). The tough part would be the two guys guarding the door, if we aggroed them, nasty things would happen.

The DFC stuff is pretty nice, I'm wondering whether to bother making myself ebon armor. I probably will because 52 is a looooong way off and I want the best stats possible until I get there...

Phiz hit 38 last night, so T4 melee jewelry is possible! I was really hurting in the jewelry department. Also decided I want to push my provisioner up to make lvl 50 food, I think he's 38 right now. The solo game is so much better with a legion of craftsupport, but it's time intensive.

Sky: What server are you on? I'm thinking of resubbing and I want someone to chat with while I solo.

There are about six of us in Bat Country on Oasis server.  There's also a channel named F13 although I've never heard anyone say anything on it. 

I said stuff on it once.

Once.

Oooo. Unless I was dropped, my original Bat Country character may still be in the guild. Just waiting for the damn client to download.

We pretty much got wtfpwned in Freethinker's Hideout.

The first named will summon and kill the last character on the hate list. Five of us (including me and the 3rd guardian) went naked and would run in and hit the mob once and then wait to be summoned. Took us three tries to beat him (have to joust his NASTY poison AE.) I died 20+ times but I was naked but for a weapon. One thing I have learned at level 70 - don't automatically sell gear once you get an upgrade. Anything Legendary or better should be kept unless its resists and stats are similar to the upgrade. For example, there is a mob in Deathtoll that is immune to piercing and then spits into two mobs, one immune to crushing and the other immune to slashing. In post-raid discussions, we think 3 nakeds would have been enough. The mob dropped a nice buckler with a +25 DPS proc, but almost 100 lower protection than the one in Unrest that I use so I didn't roll.

The next challenge was a 4 X 73x3 encounter. One of the mobs has insane debuffs. Took us three tries. Then we had another like that we beat on the first try.

The second named in the zone embarassed us. First, everyone in the raid was instructed to get disease resists under 1500. This involved removing key pieces of gear for most of us. Fighter gear tends to have a lot of disease resists. During the fight, the mob will cast a nasty disease attack on its current target, usually the tank. If the target does not DIE from that attack, a 73x2 mob spawns. I had my disease resists down to 1200 and I didn't die from it the one time I was targeted, although I died very quickly from tanking the mob since my mit was under 4k from removing gear. We failed three times at which point several raid key raid members couldn't repair any more due to the repair kit reuse timers. A coercer to control the adds should make the fight easier, but not easy. We will try that next time. Our one coercer was playing his healer instead.

ps - if no one has any real interest in these "updates" I won't post them. I just find the raid-game fun.

Man, how are you supposed to figure those raid bosses out?

"Wipe repeatedly" may be a valid option, but given the monetary and temporal consequences of wiping it doesn't sound very palatable.

Let the uber guilds figure it out first and read spoilers. I hate to use spoiler sites, but for raids, I can't say that I have the time to wipe over and over to figure things out. Unless the quest information, mob dialogue, etc. gives the appropriate hints.

And yes, shiznitz, I like the updates and like reading about the raids because I think they're interesting even if I'll never attain the level to try them in EQ2 or have the time.

Did I mention I finally got all patched up and logged in? Well, I did. Still fun, and still well done. I hazard to say even better now.

I see they did away with the base class thing. Not sure whether or not I like it that way.

The mobs do emote that they are doing something, but it would take more than a few attempts to discover the exact mechanics. Even then, though, there is nothing better than direct experience. For example, for the first named, our lone shaman just tried to heal the MT the first two fights. The third time, he made sure to debuff the nasty poison AE off the MT as his first priority since we learned that the DoT was 1/4 of the tank's health per tick for 6 ticks AFTER the initial DD portion for 4k. Cancelling that DoT was much more important that straight healing.

As far as the second named went, the raid does get a message on the screen (not in the chat box) in big red letters saying "<mob name> Points Her Finger of <blah blah> at <raidmember>." Then we would get a raid mob with that raid member's name, something like Corporeal Essence of <raidmember> which would quickly start attacking the squishies.

Nice to see that raids are still circle jerks of pain.

And keep up the updates, shiz. Nice to be reminded of what I'm not gonna do once I hit the upper levels.  :-D

Yes, thanks for the updates.  I've burned out on CoH again and need a new fix.  I'm torn between resubbing to EQ2 or WoW and have been leaning toward WoW just for ability to solo.  I guess I could always transfer one of my 40-something toons from butcherblock to oasis and join you guys, but I hate giving SOE money for that kind of stuff.  Suggestions are welcome btw.

I'm on a rather long break from CoX, too.  I never last more than a couple of months straight, if that.  I do go back, though, with every new issue and if they celebrate any sort of holiday or have an in-game event.  There is a ton of solo content in EQ2, now.  There is no reason to ever group if you don't fell like it.  I almost never bother with groups, especially since I usually play during the day and rarely for huge amounts of time in one session.  It's nice to have some sort of guild, though, when you do want some help.  Bat Country is small, but we're all very cute and smushy. 

Souk: if you haven't logged in since they ditched pre-classes....holy shit is the game a lot better now.

Nebu: Not sure when you played EQ2 last, it's very solo-friendly, though of course there are tons of group/raid cockblocks if you're not into that, but WoW has a few of them itself. I think about going back to my 58 Hunter from WoW release, but EQ2 is plenty of game for me...still only 42 with my main, mostly due to altoholism.

I played about a year ago... after most of the changes to combat mechanics etc, but before the Fay expansion.  When I left I was playing a brigand, which is why I found some of the linked encounters to be a tad rough.  I think I gave up on the brigand at about level 40.  My warden seemed to be a safer solo toon, but it was so slow that I had a hard time staying interested.  Perhaps I should go back to my dwarf warrior.  He was an armorer so I was always well-equipped. 

I think I'm going to give the BC 10 day trial a whirl.  If the graphics really begin to bug me again, I'll likely roll a noobie on Oasis. 

No kidding, Sky. I logged in yesterday and made an Arasai Inquisitor just to muck about and check out Neriak. Haven't made it to Neriak yet, but wow am I having fun. I'm sure it will only get better for a while. My main is only a level 20 dirge, but I remember burning out there before and that's when I stopped, so we'll see how things scale past 20. I'm not sure how well Dirges can solo so I don't know if I'll ever go back to playing that character. Not that I dislike groups, because those are fun, too. In any case, good stuff.

Neb, don't forget we have crafters, too. My SK is an armorcrafter...but for lower level stuff I do expect the materials because I don't keep all tiers stocked. I usually try to keep two tiers of common materials and usually only ask for rares/imbues/hard metals for most recipes.

At 42 with the SK, the soloing is as good as it's been all along. My wizard can still solo great at 33, my other characters are generally around 20 so no longer perspective. The ranger and paladin were slowing down a bit. Ranger needs to pick and choose battles more and paladin was just too slooooow. New monk is soloing stronger as he goes (he's 21 right now, going to level-lock him at 22 for a while). Also have a newbie Inq, I've heard good things about the Battle Cleric spec and hey, on the three times a year we group it'd be nice to have another healer (Gimpy plays a Fury, I think our only 'full-time' healer).

No one really figures them out on their own. At least not in EQ2.

The flow of info goes as follows:

Uber guild is invited to beta test. As part of the beta test they are given the rough breakdown of a mobs strategy. They then try it a few times to gauge the difficulty and determine if there is a sufficient strategy while the devs balance the mob to make it tough but beatable by the top guilds. The guild then offers the devs tips on how to make the zones/mobs more interesting. It's a give and take basically between the devs and the guilds. The devs get some free advice and the guilds get free strategy without wasting too much of their time.

The expansion goes live and the top guilds spend the first few weeks being the first to kill everything and deal with any last minute surprises the devs may have thrown in. Then they slowly start leaking info to the second tier uber guilds who then start posting spoilers on websites. The masses then read the spoilers and that's the end.

Usually the leaks come from former guild members who left the second tier guilds to join the top guilds. Back when I was raiding all our info came from a few folks in NPU which actually had/has a couple devs active in the guild. We also had a couple of our harder core members transfer servers to join NPU and a couple NPU who wanted to do more casual raiding do the opposite.

That would be the end of the game that /I/ don't enjoy. Exclusivity in a game meant for thousands of players. And people bitch about my favoring solo play in a massively multiplayer game. Heh.

Anyone know of a good spoiler site with all the raids listed? The one I've found is all KOS, but nothing much for EOF.

My guild is just starting into the EOF stuff. We've beat all the KOS raids (though I'd like to finish DT with a deathcount in the single digits). We mostly get some information from the web and then figure out the rest. The walkthroughs I've seen are never really all that complete. And it takes a few tries to really figure out where "get to side to avoid AOE" really means.

I think we learn more from a few people doing guest shots on other people's raids and having the occasional pickup who offers a hint--like the sneaky space so melee can go after Corsander in labs.

It's actually pretty interesting. A lot more so than I ever thought raiding would be.

Yes, it does sound interesting. I think it'd be a lot of fun. Unfortunately, most players will never get a chance to see the devs shine, eh?

I guess if any of you raiders are on Oasis you can grab BC members for pickup slots if you'd like, for mid-level raids, of course (if such things exist!).

There are no ABC walkthroughs for most of the KOS raids. Some mobs you have to joust and some you don't. Knowing that you have to joust doesn't mean you will win on your first try. Most raid dragons have a front and back AE. That means the tank pulls the dragon's head into a corner and everyone stands by the front shoulders. However, most dragons also have a special AE that requires something else.

Talendor's AE spawns 2 heroics for every PC caught in the AE. We pull Talendor to a specific spot every time. This way everyone in the raid knows the radius of the AE.  What do you do with the adds? Took us a few tries to figure out the best place to pull them and how many people to use to burn them down. We did get 30+ adds a few times when we messed up the joust.

Gorenaire doesn't have a special AE. She just teleports the tank across the room so the ST has to be there to re-grab aggro immediately. Telling you that, however, doesn't mean you can pull it off on your first try.

Those two dragons are actually very good "learning" dragons since they don't have tons of HPs.

I find the raiding more accessible in EQ2 than most games. Probably because the output of expansions is fast and one can "grow into" raid zones. So you might not see the top end, but the top end will be a step down in six months. It's more accessible than WOW and infinitely more than EQ. I've never raided before this in any game and I got recruited as a pickup. (There is a substantial repair bill if you try to do labs at 62.) We almost always fill out our raids with pickups and I see others pretty regularly looking for people for KOS raids as well.

This site has some pretty good KOS walkthroughs: http://www.raidwiki.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page but there are some gaps.

We always have 2-6 pickups. Raids in EQ2 aren't timesinks. There are one mob raids that take 45 minutes and multi-mob raids that can take 4 hours if you elect to kill all the nameds, but you can always quit early. I also love how in the KoS zones, any of the trash mobs in the major raid zones (Labs, Lyceum, Daethtoll) can drop relic armor, i.e. quality Fabled.

Sky, there are numerous mid-level raids in EQ2.  There are the occasional x2, x3 contested mob that go from the mid-teens on up and get lots of chat spam for pick-up members but there are also full on raid zones.  There are guild raids that you get from the city and provide lots of guild exp and status and areas like the one off the beach in Nektulous, Cauldron of something-or-other which is mid-30's or the one at the end of the Greater Lightstone quest that is mid-20ish and lots of others.

Build a core team for the raid, tank and what-not, of guildies and then advertise for pick-up groups that are there to just provide DPS.  I've taken my toon on several of these types of raids, they usually take about an hour to put together but can be pretty fun.  Start with the contested mobs since you can just put together a raid and kill it and then go on your way.  Once you have a few of those under your belt you can get more ambitious.

The Epic Angler in TS is the best practice raid ever. He's a level 50 Epic x 4 but easy enough that a single group of raid geared 60s could beat him even before KoS came out. Also really easy to get to if you have the Splitpaw shard. Call to Splitpaw and one zone later you are basically right there. Takes like 2 minutes for everyone to get there.

Then again most of the old world raids are pretty easy any more. Especially if you get a 55-60 tank to tank all the level 50 epics.

I totally dig the fact that even the yard trash in raids can drop useful shit. That was one of the bigger pains in the as about EQ raids. Sit for four hours and get two items for the 40 people that showed.

Heh. This is Bat Country we're talking about.

Yeah, we obviously can't stop here...  :-D