What is community relations?

[Morgan]

Being new to the community, I wasn't sure if this was the most appropriate place to engage in discourse about community relations and marketing. Nonetheless, I will value any insight and feedback provided. Thank you!

Edit 1: That said, I should also ask you, "What is community relations to you?"
Edit 2: Removed article because apparently posting links to your blog is a no-no. Sorry.

[Krakrok]

I think you're off base. 'Community Relations' doesn't say 'word of mouth marketing' to me. Word of mouth marketing might be an effect of good community relations but it isn't the definition. I'd say community relations is the interface between users (the community) and developers (the organization) in an MMOG context. Community relation reps filter and translate the data between the two. Depending on how it is managed it can make your organization look good or bad which leads to good or bad word of mouth marketing out along the social network.

What impacted me was the fact that their cause marketing initiatives are so effective that they can convince wealthy individuals to give truck loads of cash to strangers with no expectation of return on their investments.

Once you have X amount of money you run out of things to spend it on. What might seem like truck loads of cash to you probably isn't truck loads of cash to the person making the donation. And the wealthy individuals usually do expect a return on their investment except that the return is measured in social capital instead of cash.

[schild]

According to your "company" link, you do disruptive marketing. Whatever that hip phrase means, I have no clue. Suffice it to say, there's a difference between PR and community relations. And given your post, I don't even need to read the article to know that you're confusing the two. No article on CR should involve marketing of any sort. Community relations targets an existing community and the end "want" is retention of that community. Marketing is gaining new customers or winning back old ones.

Also, public relations is different from Community Relations and Marketing - THOUGH, PR can involve CR and marketing. CR and Marketing however should remain independent of eachother.

Edit: If that doesn't make sense, whatever, I downed a shitload of hot sake at dinner.

[Morgan]

Word of mouth marketing might be an effect of good community relations but it isn't the definition. I'd say community relations is the interface between users (the community) and developers (the organization) in an MMOG context. Community relation reps filter and translate the data between the two.

I completely agree! Community relations professionals are definitely facilitators, people who help the community and developers communicate better with each other. I think what I wrote was that effective community relations is characterized (not defined) by generating word-of-mouth feedback within the social networks of opinion leaders for a product, service, or solution. This feedback serves the purpose of analyzing the market for insights into consumer behavior and the purpose of passing along messages that advance positive perceptions of the organization. I probably wasn't clear enough though.

We should, however, distinguish between community relations (CR) and community management (CM). Community relations is a form of public relations that focuses on a single category of stakeholder, community and its leaders, to ensure that communication between other members and developers is neither disrupted nor corrupted. Community management, in my opinion, is concerned with reducing risks to retaining or growing the community base, such as by installing moderators to filter content considered inappropriate to this category of stakeholder.

[schild]

This topic is too masturbatory, imo. As in, it's an argument over syntax. Community management is but a tiny subsection of community relations.

I think I'd know.

[Morgan]

No article on CR should involve marketing of any sort. ... Marketing is gaining new customers or winning back old ones.

The marketing function in most companies, which are small businesses, is primarily performed by the sales force. This leads to thinking of marketing as a sales activity that exists only to generate and qualify leads for the sales force. In larger firms, however, the marketing function is separate from the sales function, and is strategic in nature. Instead of focusing on the Four Ps (Product, Pricing, Promotion, and Place), strategic marketing sets its beady eyes on segmentation, targeting, and positioning. Since I'm in the business of branding, I'm really not concerned with the sales end of marketing; I'm talking about strategic marketing, which plays a significant role in the ability of public relations (i.e., community relations) initiatives to connect with consumers, develop brand loyalty, and effect market growth.

This topic is too masturbatory, imo. As in, it's an argument over syntax. Community management is but a tiny subsection of community relations.

I agree with you. I was hoping we could shift to discussing CR problems that people normally encounter, and how these problems could be solved or better solved.

[UnSub]

I think that CR is part of MMOG marketing - it should form a core part of tools that are used to keep customers satisfied. I keep meaning to do a study that applies Hirschman's Exit, Voice and Loyalty theories to MMOGs (in short, having a community voice can build loyalty and reduce exit from the entity at hand, among other things). If CR can do that - provide feedback channels that help satisfy clients / solve problems, keep players involved where they may otherwise have quit - then it certainly falls into the area of marketing methods.

CR could probably be defined as any situation where the customer and the company meet, be it in-game or ex-game. In-game, it's dealing with petitions, helping players, running events and even just being there in-game to be seen at times. Ex-game, it's forums management, competitions, metagame information, providing player feedback to devs, fansite management / interaction and other other such activity.

Thus far, I don't think many (if any) companies really get CR "right". They may be strong in some areas but are weak in others. When it's realised that CR is something that can actually make a company money by reducing overheads (alternatively: the market matures so that few "new" players are available), I believe more attention will be paid to it.

[Venkman]

What is cause marketing that isn't normal policking? Different terms, but largely similar agendas built upon similar motivators. CR kicks things off, CM either maintains or grows.

What was it that you were seeking to talk about though? Bad CR as it applies to MMOG (based on this appearing in this particularly sub-forum)? Good or bad cause marketing? Not sure what the conversation is here.

[Murgos]

Morgan Ramsay and Kevin Klein, whose combined experience in marketing spans more than a decade, founded the agency four years ago.

So, other than this company you both had about a year doing marketing in the real word?

Why do I get the feeling that this is all BS?  Why does disruptive marketing sound like message board trolling to my jaded ears?

Who is it you are working for or are you just trying to get your 'brand' out there?  Also, stealing the logo and name from an eight year old software game isn't going to score you any points for creative ability with people looking to hire you for your creative abilities.

In short, why isn't this in the Den where it can be mocked properly?

[Signe]

Screenshots of naked clients or they don't exist?

Edit:  this should of been a question.  It changes the meaning.  Le sigh.   

[Grimwell]

Morgan's for real Murgos.

RE: The topic... my reflex thought is "What isn't community relations?" It's a really catch all aspect of these gaming companies. The CM's primary role is to be that public interface between development and players because it helps ensure that communication is being effective and heard both ways, but that's definitely not where it ends. A good CM has to watch out for everything going out to the players (and prospective players) to make sure that it's honest, accurate, and will resonate with the community that is out there.

They are almost 'responsible for everything' and 'in control of nothing'  That's a bit of an overstatement, but when anything goes down in/about/around a game and it's community, the CM is on the front line. So everything that happens, from the smallest and most innocent developer post to actual game design and future patch content, is on the CM's plate. They don't dictate future patch content, but they'd best know what's coming, and how the community is going to react. Throw in live events, fansite relations, forums moderation, and a whole lot of other interesting things, and you have a very big plate of things to mind over.

Then again, ask me in six months after I've been roasted a few times and I may have a better answer.  :mrgreen:

[Bunk]

Where the hell have I been? When did Grimwell get hired by Sony?
And here I though I was pretty good at keeping up with these things.

Oh, and the CR guy is the guy that the devs throw under the bus known as official message boards, because they know that the people having fits on said boards only represent 2% of the player base.  :P

[Murgos]

Morgan's for real Murgos.

For real how?  Like, he trolls message boards for pay so he can perform 'disruptive marketing'?  No shit.

Anyone and everyone who tries to 'spin' and bias my perceptions is immediately under a cloud of suspicion.  That include's you Grim, what 4 years?  More? you have been trying to find a legit in to be a red name?  Great, now instead of pretending to be one of 'them' you are one of 'them' and I'm supposed to sign off on some trolls obscure world of BS (Fucking awful article btw) because you tell me he is legit?

You're doing a great job, keep up the good work.  Both of you.

[Grimwell]

Watch now as my heart breaks in fragile silence from your lack of love 

I so desperately needed you.  :-(

[Morgan]

I keep meaning to do a study that applies Hirschman's Exit, Voice and Loyalty theories to MMOGs (in short, having a community voice can build loyalty and reduce exit from the entity at hand, among other things).

I'm eagerly awaiting that study. I believe that marketers need to step down from the ladder and join the crowd. They need to join brand conversations as participants rather than oversee these dialogues as panel moderators. In so doing, they would earn credibility as people genuinely interested in the wants and needs of the people in the community. The results of such a study would have a tremendous impact on my approach to branding.

CR could probably be defined as any situation where the customer and the company meet, be it in-game or ex-game.

Those points where consumers interact with the brand (brand touchpoints) are what I'm interested in. Clearly, when there's nobody to represent the community, relations with the community suffers. When there are too many representatives, things just get confusing for everybody. (The Paradox of Choice) But when would you say that CR needs improvement? What principles would a community want their representation to uphold? Utilitarianism? Ethical egoism? What philosophy should guide CR activities?

[Venkman]

What philosophy should guide CR activities?

They need to join brand conversations as participants rather than oversee these dialogues as panel moderators

Problem solved. Next!

:)

Just kidding. Basically though, I feel folks who want to espouse a brand must understand all interactions with that brand and its sub-parts, including the psychology of the person(s) doing so. There's ways to do this academically without losing yourself. You don't need to be addicted to something to build it. But you do need to understand it.

What I find trips up marketing folks a lot is this idea they can use consumer insights research as the sole input. That's valid as one source, but it's more reactive, something more useful in explaining why something became successful previously. It's not so hot at prediction. That I feel requires more lateral thinking. What are emerging trends across a number of different spaces? I use the iTunes/iPod example a lot.

There were MP3 players, online distribution services and client-side cataloging software before. But Apple offered a holistic solution that delivered the exact right thing at the exact right time. This won't last forever, but they won their money hats for a few years. The vision behind iTunes was not driven by marketing. That became an integral part only later.

And Murgos, what's your beef?

[palmer_eldritch]

I believe that marketers need to step down from the ladder and join the crowd. They need to join brand conversations as participants rather than oversee these dialogues as panel moderators . . . Those points where consumers interact with the brand (brand touchpoints) are what I'm interested in.

I used to work in marketing and yes, this is for real.

In general, there is nothing that can be said in incomprehensible jargon that could not be said just as well in plain English. Exceptions might include nuclear physics, but not marketing. This gobbledygook is not a sign of intelligence or knowledge, it's a sign of an inability to use the English language properly.

But this is how marketing people speak. The people responsible for communicating - especially if you include public relations and advertising as part of marketing - are usually the ones least able to do it in any business. An agency or consultancy which specialises in marketing is usually even worse than an in-house department.

Don't take it personally Morgan. I'm criticising the entire profession, not you.

I know I'd be better off ignoring this thread, but it brings back so many bad memories . . .

[Murgos]

And Murgos, what's your beef?

His business is to disrupt communities such as this one to create positive marketing for a corporate client.  He is the king mole of the moles.  Him or people in his pay almost certainly have posted to these boards under the guise of fellow gaming enthusiasts except that they aren't spreading their own heartfelt opinion but rather one they were payed to endorse.

A lot of the reason this is a community I hang around in is because people here go, "have you played X?  X is a great fucking game you really ought to check it out." and I can trust that.  People like this schmuck Morgan and the people who hire him like Grimwell and Sony are leveraging that strength we have all put time and effort to build into this community to make a quick buck.

That's my beef.

If he want's to interact with this crowd with his name in red text and a declared affiliation so we can identify his bias as such and factor that into our conversations that's one thing but to come in here as 'one of us' and use our trust to 'disrupt communities' well, fuck him and his fancy horse.

[Venkman]

Ok, I get ya. Morgan sorta comes outta nowhere with a semi-suspicious post, conveniently timed with Grimwell going big time/selling out, depending on the point of view.

Personally, I can vouch for Morgan, from conversations we've had over the last two years, mostly at Grimwell's forums, in their heyday (I'm embarassed by my own post count over there ;) ). He wants to learn like the rest of us. He's just asking different questions.

Now, I don't expect my vouch to mean dick, and maybe it casts suspicion on me because this comes suspicously close to when I shut down my blog  :-D But I did want to mention it anyway. There's people I won't go to bat for because I'm suspicious of them. But I know Grimmy well, and I don't think Morgan's been playing me for two years ;)

[schild]

Before we even go on. I really want to hear what the hell this Morgan guy actually does.

[Signe]

I consider anyone who gets any sort of job at all to be selling out.  You should all just flop around, like me.

Anyway, I kind of sort of mostly know who Morgan is and I blame God.

[Murgos]

He mentions specifically and repeatedly focusing on and targeting leaders in a demographic to exploit the follower mindset and generate brand affiliation.

Schild got 48 pages of grief because he endorsed SWG's revamp and it turned out to be crap.  I believe that that was Schilds honest opinion at the time, we all know how gung-ho he is for teh new shiney.  This guy's business model is to take people like Schild (or you or me) and co-opt his status (i.e. buy his opinion) to generate income for a corporate client.  He may be here in this community at this time to try and discuss this phenomena openly and I certainly would rather have open honest discussion about the subject but I can't buy into the thought that it's not possibly one of the most reprehensable marketing activities I can think of.

The phrase 'Sell Out' has negative connotations for a reason.  The guy want's us to help him create better more effective sell outs.

Grim just jumped into the conversation at the wrong time, I have nothing against him.

[schild]

I want his answer. I want to taste it.

[Signe]

eww.

[Grimwell]

Morgan's cool. A bit fond of big words for my style of writing, but he's been on my forums and whatnot. Further, he gave me a ride from the airport. Why's he here? Well I kinda shut down my forums and did suggest that this is once place where you can find good conversations, provided you have a thick skin. ;P

[schild]

I'm not responding to you til I see his answer.

[HRose]

Before we even go on. I really want to hear what the hell this Morgan guy actually does.

He does marketing research, no?

[schild]

Before we even go on. I really want to hear what the hell this Morgan guy actually does.

He does marketing research, no?

Hey, Get the fuck out of this thread.

[Morgan]

His business is to disrupt communities such as this one to create positive marketing for a corporate client. He is the king mole of the moles.

Astroturfing is unethical and often illegal. I don't support, condone, or practice astroturfing. What I do support is the anti-astroturfing code of ethics.

• "I will not fabricate a public concern by paying or coercing individuals to falsely act as concerned citizens. I will only seek to help give voice to those who already hold an existing concern and/or provide education to stakeholders that might be affected by a particular issue.
• When supporting grassroots efforts, I will ensure that I am transparent in all my actions and clearly and publicly state what actions I am taking and which organization or client I represent.
• I will never knowingly distort or falsify information to help my client/interest achieve a strategic/emotional advantage in a public debate.
• I will encourage all grassroots supporters to be open and honest in all of their communications, just as I will be open and honest in mine."

If he want's to interact with this crowd with his name in red text and a declared affiliation so we can identify his bias as such and factor that into our conversations that's one thing but to come in here as 'one of us' and use our trust to 'disrupt communities' well, fuck him and his fancy horse.

I appreciate that you see me as part of a larger organization, but in truth, my company is a small business (sole proprietorship) that consists of two people, two musicians. We don't currently have any clients in interactive entertainment. In the games industry, I worked in quality assurance at Sony Computer Entertainment America and Sony Online Entertainment on PS2 (NBA ShootOut 2006, SOCOM 3) and PSP (Field Commander, The Con, Untold Legends 2) titles. I was also the volunteer QA Manager at Wildfire Games on 0 A.D. for a brief time until the team realized we didn't have enough resources for a comprehensive quality assurance program. I'm very much a gamer, but I'm a musician first and a scientist at heart.

I'm also a member of the International Game Developers Association (IGDA), where I help run the San Diego chapter; the San Diego Military Advisory Council (SDMAC), where I just attend monthly breakfasts for now; and the Society of Digital Artists (CGS), where I'm organizing a leadership team to establish its San Diego chapter. I'm heavily involved with nonprofit organizations and activities, and I'm seriously interested in the common good. But there is that other side of me that's involved with branding. I thought my third-person biography explained everything. I don't like talking about myself. I'd rather be talking about something far more interesting.

As Grimwell suggested, I'm here because he shut down his forums, which was a good place to go to engage in critical discussions about the business of games. I've participated in a number of business communities around the Web, but as palmer_eldritch said, the lexicon of business tends to hinder clear communication. I like straight talk, even if I'm sometimes guilty of the complete opposite, and that's why I posted here, to solicit usefully cynical commentary.

This guy's business model is to take people like Schild (or you or me) and co-opt his status (i.e. buy his opinion) to generate income for a corporate client.

I strongly disapprove of financial incentives. From a discussion I had in a human resources management course, several of my classmates who were HRM professionals suggested that the workforce can be incentivized by monetary rewards to be more productive and loyal. I argued that these rewards actually create a mercenary environment in which members of this new mercenary force become more willing to pack their bags and leave for opportunities with higher rewards. (By the way, this type of environment is prevalent in many online games, by design.) Later, scientific research (used to be a free article) proved my hypothesis. I argued that the challenge to HRM professionals who continue using financial incentives is to craft programs that transform teamwork into a personal achievement and therefore stimulate collaboration in the environment. This applies to community and its leaders too.

In other words, I'll never pay you good money for bad thoughts. Sorry. :)

[schild]

His business is to disrupt communities such as this one to create positive marketing for a corporate client. He is the king mole of the moles.

Astroturfing is unethical and often illegal. I don't support, condone, or practice astroturfing. What I do support is the anti-astroturfing code of ethics.

• "I will not fabricate a public concern by paying or coercing individuals to falsely act as concerned citizens. I will only seek to help give voice to those who already hold an existing concern and/or provide education to stakeholders that might be affected by a particular issue.
• When supporting grassroots efforts, I will ensure that I am transparent in all my actions and clearly and publicly state what actions I am taking and which organization or client I represent.
• I will never knowingly distort or falsify information to help my client/interest achieve a strategic/emotional advantage in a public debate.
• I will encourage all grassroots supporters to be open and honest in all of their communications, just as I will be open and honest in mine."

If he want's to interact with this crowd with his name in red text and a declared affiliation so we can identify his bias as such and factor that into our conversations that's one thing but to come in here as 'one of us' and use our trust to 'disrupt communities' well, fuck him and his fancy horse.

I appreciate that you see me as part of a larger organization, but in truth, my company is a small business (sole proprietorship) that consists of two people, two musicians. We don't currently have any clients in interactive entertainment. In the games industry, I worked in quality assurance at Sony Computer Entertainment America and Sony Online Entertainment on PS2 (NBA ShootOut 2006, SOCOM 3) and PSP (Field Commander, The Con, Untold Legends 2) titles. I was also the volunteer QA Manager at Wildfire Games on 0 A.D. for a brief time until the team realized we didn't have enough resources for a comprehensive quality assurance program. I'm very much a gamer, but I'm a musician first and a scientist at heart.

I'm also a member of the International Game Developers Association (IGDA), where I help run the San Diego chapter; the San Diego Military Advisory Council (SDMAC), where I just attend monthly breakfasts for now; and the Society of Digital Artists (CGS), where I'm organizing a leadership team to establish its San Diego chapter. I'm heavily involved with nonprofit organizations and activities, and I'm seriously interested in the common good. But there is that other side of me that's involved with branding. I thought my third-person biography explained everything. I don't like talking about myself. I'd rather be talking about something far more interesting.

As Grimwell suggested, I'm here because he shut down his forums, which was a good place to go to engage in critical discussions about the business of games. I've participated in a number of business communities around the Web, but as palmer_eldritch said, the lexicon of business tends to hinder clear communication. I like straight talk, even if I'm sometimes guilty of the complete opposite, and that's why I posted here, to solicit usefully cynical commentary.

This guy's business model is to take people like Schild (or you or me) and co-opt his status (i.e. buy his opinion) to generate income for a corporate client.

I strongly disapprove of financial incentives. From a discussion I had in a human resources management course, several of my classmates who were HRM professionals suggested that the workforce can be incentivized by monetary rewards to be more productive and loyal. I argued that these rewards actually create a mercenary environment in which members of this new mercenary force become more willing to pack their bags and leave for opportunities with higher rewards. (By the way, this type of environment is prevalent in many online games, by design.) Later, scientific research (used to be a free article) proved my hypothesis. I argued that the challenge to HRM professionals who continue using financial incentives is to craft programs that transform teamwork into a personal achievement and therefore stimulate collaboration in the environment. This applies to community and its leaders too.

Holy shit.

There's no answer in there.

Yes, I read fast.

[Morgan]

I want his answer. I want to taste it.

Next time you're in San Diego, call me, and I'll treat you to lunch.

[schild]

I want his answer. I want to taste it.

Next time you're in San Diego, I'll treat you to lunch.

It all starts with a drink.

[Morgan]

I want his answer. I want to taste it.

Next time you're in San Diego, I'll treat you to lunch.

It all starts with a drink.

Damn straight.

[schild]

I want his answer. I want to taste it.

Next time you're in San Diego, I'll treat you to lunch.

It all starts with a drink.

Damn straight.

And in most situations, you know. I'd be cool with that. But here is why I need some answers.

1. Not actively working in the games industry? How are you involved with (much less heading) the IGDA chapter down there?
2. Want to pimp your blog? Give me a reason why I should let that sort of behavior happen.

It's a brave new world forum. And as Grimwell said "provided you have a thick skin." Well, we're asking you to validate the first post in this thread. Or rather, I am. I know I'm not the only one who wants to understand though.

[Murgos]

In other words, I'll never pay you good money for bad thoughts. Sorry. :)

There are other ways to buy people than cash.  Some people can be bought with friendship and conversation (or perks or what have you, journalists often fall prey to the promise of access, it's still being bought), if you are doing it to sell an opinion you don't personally hold, you're scum.  It's simple, really, and there is a very visible broad line that marks the boundary of that behavior.  Cash in hand would be honest corruption, at least.

All the rest of your post said was that you don't have any game clients, atm.  Great.  Whatever that means.