Tabu..wait... Richard Garriott back from the dead

[Falconeer]

Richard Garriot > Brad McQuaid

Darn, when you put it that way, I am SO with you.



For the win..

[Slyfeind]

*sheds a tear*

Anyone ever look at RG's bio? "Games he's worked on: Akalabeth, Ultima." It's so unpretentious, that it's pretentious. Or the other way around.

I want to be a Lord British fanboi again. God knows I want to see someone dethrone WOW, and back in the day, you'd think RG would be the man to do it. I fear that he's become too much of a businessman, though.

PvE FPSes are garbage? Does that include Doom?

[Shapechanger]

You know, this game piques my interest though.  It's cause it has Garriott on board.  I'm a believer, I suppose.

I put in a beta app.  My system is a bit under par, but as I *may* be building a PC for MEO assuming my wife digs, I listed those specs.  Hey, they didn't ask for dxdiag.  I'm sure I could optimize my current to run it, but it wouldn't be dandy.

[Venkman]

I want to be a Lord British fanboi again. God knows I want to see someone dethrone WOW, and back in the day, you'd think RG would be the man to do it. I fear that he's become too much of a businessman, though.

I don't think it's him, but rather, the climate. In his heyday, just launching a game was a big deal. And everything was so new there were no real rules. You COULD literally make a big selling game out of your garage, maybe even program it yourself.

Nowadays that's still maybe possible in lower-order casual online and mobile games. But you won't be launching an MMO by yourself, so you need to convince people to work with and fund you. Unfortunately, RG is not Will Wright, with a strong-ish history throughout the latter 90s when lots of things got formalized. So it's gotta be more challenging for him.

WE know well who he is and what he's done. But the better ya know/of him, the more outside the core target demographic you are 

[Falconeer]

Just curious: when we talk about UO we say Richard Garriott (and Raph, of course, and Starr Long too). When EQ comes up it's Brad McQuaid, and when you think at DAoC you think Mark Jacobs', but who would you say is "the man" behind World of Warcraft? How come some Lead Designers (or whatever they are) become famous and stuff while some others remain mostly hidden under the huge brand name?

I am not even sure about WoW lead. Is it Pardo? I mean, how come his name comes up so rarely?

[Trippy]

Just curious: when we talk about UO we say Richard Garriott (and Raph, of course, and Starr Long too). When EQ comes up it's Brad McQuaid (and Jeff Butler), and when you think at DAoC you think Mark Jacobs', but who would you say is "the man" behind World of Warcraft? How come some Lead Designers (or whatever they are) become famous and stuff while some others remain mostly hidden under the huge brand name?

I am not even sure about WoW lead. Is it Pardo? I mean, how come his name comes up so rarely?

Yes, Rob's so unknown that Time magazine named him to the TIME 100: The People Who Shape Our World list. In other words he basically skipped the gamer worship phase except by those who remember him from his days in EQ and went straight to being recognized by the mass media.

But seriously, to the public Blizzard was always about their executives like Mike Morhaime and Bill Roper and the designers and creative people toiled in relative obscurity. For whatever reason Blizzard decided to make Rob the "face" of WoW (and now VP of Game Design) even though by his own admission he entered the WoW design team very late in the process. Allen Adham (who?) was the original designer on the game but left to go into semi-retirement writing financial software.

[Venkman]

Depends on the size of the company and the era. If Microsoft only got huge in the last five years, it'd be in same place (no "Bill Gates", who still is more public than the folks really in charge). Without Jobs, Apple was just Apple. Big companies don't like non-PR folks to have too much exposure because it sets up unfair internal social conditions for employees who get it vs those who do not. This is not a good atmosphere for companies because while consumers may think it's one person who does stuff, it's really the total team that made it possible, with individual visions contributing along the way. We have a hero-worship problem as a culture, in business, games, sports and movies, all industries. But HR groups all over recognize the fundamental issue this presents for the internal culture.

Small companies have more freedom, but Blizzard is not a small company.

[squirrel]

I admit, I'm rooting for Tabula Rasa.  Richard Garriot > Brad McQuaid, in my book.  That's probably because I used to play a ton of games worked on by Lord British back in the C-64 days.  Granted, I liked WarWizard, too.

I'm rooting for it as well, although not because Lord British is involved. My support is simply for any persistent MMOG set outside of a fantasy universe that tries to shake up the prevailing mechanics.

I don't personally buy into Raph's new world MySpaceRPG vision, although i see the opportunity, but at the same time if I have to stare at another creation screen with "Dwarf", "Elf", "Human", "Orc" as the initial building block I'm done.

That said I liked DAoC enough I will try War. And TR. And then I'm out. Seriously.

[HRose]

Current WoW lead is Tigole/Jeff Kaplan, not Pardo. Pardo is now a design director/supervisor throughout the whole studio.

Simplifying, Pardo made WoW till before launch, then he was replaced by Tigole who drove the rest of the process post-launch.

My impression is that Pardo's current role at Blizzard is similar to what Raph did at SOE after he left SWG. With the difference that Pardo may have a stronger influence on game design.

[sinij]

I'm surprised speechless at depth of fanboism some of you show here, and I though F13 is a semi-respectable establishment frequented by jaded gamers. Asshats.

What you fail to realize is that all FPS PvE games are SINGLE PLAYER , they work because there are things in a single player games that you can't hope to do in a mmorpg.

So Tabula is ether not going to be mmorpg (and more something like diablo) or not going to be fun. Considering RG working on it I bet that Tabula will not be mmorpg in a classical sense, more like massive matchmaking multiplayer rpg.

[Venkman]

Actually, I believe most of us interested is based on two main things:

• It's trying something different enough. It's not groundbreaking, but it's not cloning WoW.
• It's not going to be hugely massive.

To that second point though, outside of economy, and some SB and PS battles, what is truly massive? Even 40 on 40 AV battles in WoW are more people both groups rushing to the opposing side's boss mob than a constant stream of Braveheart-type encounters.

FPS PvE is more about a unique control system strapped upon a traditional set of RPG motivators. In TR that'll include soloing, duoing, groups and raids. Is that automatically a bad thing?

[LK]

Just curious: when we talk about UO we say Richard Garriott (and Raph, of course, and Starr Long too). When EQ comes up it's Brad McQuaid (and Jeff Butler), and when you think at DAoC you think Mark Jacobs', but who would you say is "the man" behind World of Warcraft? How come some Lead Designers (or whatever they are) become famous and stuff while some others remain mostly hidden under the huge brand name?

I am not even sure about WoW lead. Is it Pardo? I mean, how come his name comes up so rarely?

Yes, Rob's so unknown that Time magazine named him to the TIME 100: The People Who Shape Our World list. In other words he basically skipped the gamer worship phase except by those who remember him from his days in EQ and went straight to being recognized by the mass media.

But seriously, to the public Blizzard was always about their executives like Mike Morhaime and Bill Roper and the designers and creative people toiled in relative obscurity. For whatever reason Blizzard decided to make Rob the "face" of WoW (and now VP of Game Design) even though by his own admission he entered the WoW design team very late in the process. Allen Adham (who?) was the original designer on the game but left to go into semi-retirement writing financial software.

It's because the entire company contributes and assists with the design and quality presentation.  The face of WoW is Blizzard, not any one person.  You can say "Yeah it's led by X and X person" but if you want to know who worked on WoW, the credits shipped with the product.

[LC]

There are plenty of games for you pwntards to play. I'm more concerned about the 'not-fps' aspects than the lack of pvp.

Name one that isn't a pile of shit.

Examples of shit:

Shadowbane
Planetside

[geldonyetich]

What you fail to realize is that all FPS PvE games are SINGLE PLAYER , they work because there are things in a single player games that you can't hope to do in a mmorpg.

The inner gaming fanboy also thinks that MMO has a chance, if only there exists a game designer that understands the idea of harnessing the massively multiplayer aspect productively, instead of just dogpiling everybody on a map and expecting it to work.

So Tabula is ether not going to be mmorpg (and more something like diablo) or not going to be fun. Considering RG working on it I bet that Tabula will not be mmorpg in a classical sense, more like massive matchmaking multiplayer rpg.

It's possible that Tabula Rasa will make use of instancing to keep players divided in such a way as to avoid the usual MMO problems, but seeing how they're going for a quasi-FPS, the architecture would favor them being able to put many more players on the map than a full blown FPS.  The last I've read, they will indeed have ORPG aspects.

[Slyfeind]

There are plenty of games for you pwntards to play.

Name one that isn't a pile of shit.

So, in 10+ years of online gaming, UO is the only "pwntard" game that did it right? Everything else is crap? This makes me wonder if PvP games just can't be done right, unless it's set in a virutal worldish sandbox. And a virtual worldish sandbox, I might add, isn't designed to be a "pwntard" game in the first place.

Alternatively, our vision might be clouded by our memories of UO. And alter-alternatively, maybe our standards are too high, there's really nothing wrong with Planetside or Shadowbane, and we're just bitchy.

[ahoythematey]

Doom2 over LAN wasn't single player, and it had hordes of PvE.  Well, more like PvP with monsters lying about waiting to be lured to enemy players.

...

You know what, if Tabula Rasa gives me the ability to lead creatures against other creatures and other players, I won't mind the lack of PvP.  I'd play it then.

[Trippy]

It's because the entire company contributes and assists with the design and quality presentation.  The face of WoW is Blizzard, not any one person.  You can say "Yeah it's led by X and X person" but if you want to know who worked on WoW, the credits shipped with the product.

Yes but there are other companies that do "promote" their game designers and some are even a brand unto themselves. Blizzard, until WoW, was not one of them.

[Venkman]

Exactly. Most aren't. You can't judge by Raph, Garriot and Will Wright. They are the exceptions, either because they are something the company can advertise (Wright) or because they have always been deeply involved in the public conversation (Raph).

[Shapechanger]

Blizzards top designers don't come out and make statements that increase community awareness.

In the names you gave above, it seems to me that all of them keep dialogue up with the community. Mark Jacobs occassionally posts and also gives annual boss type speeches.  The same from Garriott or McQuaid.  I haven't seen dialogue from designers with Blizzard, and perhaps that is why there is not as much awareness of it.


If you are interested in an article by Rob Pardo, from Austin Games, about his design decisions in Warcraft - I posted a copy http://lotro.turbine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8995&highlight=pardo there.  It's the MEO forums.  I post as LuthienTinuviel & Fanghorn there when I very rarely post there, cause I registered in the first seconds the boards came up...  It's too damn long to post here without cluttering the thread.

[Kageru]

Simplifying, Pardo made WoW till before launch, then he was replaced by Tigole who drove the rest of the process post-launch.

Which was a shame really. I found Pardo's beta posts very lucid and showing some solid and pragmatic insight into MMORPG design.

I have no interest in a PvP FPS MMORPG unless it has Australian servers, which is incredibly unlikely. I will be interested to hear how TR matures, thought I still think ranged / sci-fi combat tends to break down group dynamics. Still, some novelty would be nice to see.

[SnakeCharmer]

 

I would have liked to have beta'd this game, or even given it a shot on launch but I think it would make my comp choke and then throw up on itself.

[Venkman]

Sign up anyway. They probably want a broad range of setups playing TR so they can hone in their true minimum and recommended specs. You can only go so far designing for intentions. Eventually you gotta find out if you were right :)

[Signe]

I think I'll have to give this one a miss.  I don't think I'm very good at the sort of game this is turning out to be.  I'll be thrilled, however, if it ends up being something different AND successful.  Something out there has to prove that different can be profitable.  No PvP in this sort of game kind of does my head in, though.

[Grimwell]

I got my hands on TR in 2005 at E3, from the sounds of the linked article, it's the same TR that was on the floor in 2006. That iteration of the game was fun. It felt like a shooter, and left me thinking good things about it. If their launch TR is like that demo TR and it scales up to a large audience over the net well... it could be a good thing.

[Signe]

That's what I'm not good at... shooters.  For some strange reason, they make me feel panicky.  I would really like to see Garriott do something wonderful, though... and, like I keep saying, different.  As long as he doesn't dress up like a big poofy king anymore, I'm on his side.

You too, Grimwell.  No dressing up.

[Merusk]

It was my understanding that while it FELT like a shooter, it wasn't a shooter.   You still had specials and preset moves you could do a-la SWG rather than running & gunning like Planetside.  That's what I gathered from the early-on vids at the least.   So you alienate two groups of people right off the bat by presenting it far differently than it plays.

Name one that isn't a pile of shit.

Examples of shit:

Shadowbane
Planetside

Shadowbane was shit in execution, absolutly. It was a nice testbed for some ideas, though, and pointed out some weaknesses in the 'pwn the world' model.  I.e. when you get to servers that DO pwn the world, pure-pvp games become very, very boring places.

Planetside, however, I'd love to know why it was shit.  It did what it set out to do very well.  It just lacked the need to defend anyplace, leading to zerg vs counter-zerg style of fighting.  The fact that it was a pure FPS, however, meant it was destined to fail when put up against other free-play FPS that could evolve faster and incorporate new gameplay ideas better.   FPS games aren't made for longevity.

[SnakeCharmer]

Sign up anyway. They probably want a broad range of setups playing TR so they can hone in their true minimum and recommended specs. You can only go so far designing for intentions. Eventually you gotta find out if you were right :)

Eh, I signed up. Doubt i'll get picked thou.  Only thing I fibbed about was my processor speed (athlon 2400+), which is  j u s t  shy of their minimum reqs.  Everything else meets or exceeds them.

[Venkman]

I'm thinking that they would still accept below min spec or they wouldn't bother listing them as options :)

It was my understanding that while it FELT like a shooter, it wasn't a shooter.   You still had specials and preset moves you could do a-la SWG rather than running & gunning like Planetside

Based on the 2006 Demo, it's a bit of both. You CAN run and gun, but it uses something that felt similar to Planetside's cone of fire (dice rolls on stuff in target reticle, which expands or contracts based on events, in place of true collision detection).

[LK]

If the gunplay can impress, then this game will do well. I liked Planetside a heck of a lot, and fighting a war in that game felt pretty good most of the time, but there were certain cheesy elements that ruined it, like one guy being able to take out a battlemech.

[Venkman]

TR is PvE focused. So the gunplay's gotta work and "feel right" against AI :)

[Slyfeind]

If the gunplay can impress, then this game will do well. I liked Planetside a heck of a lot, and fighting a war in that game felt pretty good most of the time, but there were certain cheesy elements that ruined it, like one guy being able to take out a battlemech.

In SJ Games' table-top "Ogre," one player controls an army of grunts, the other player controls a giant tank. The army of grunts fights a war of attrition against the giant tank. Would this be fun in an MMO, if you were one of the grunts? In a PvE raid, this is how some fights go down; Onyxia is the giant tank, and the raid is the army of grunts. We hesitate to say "Dying is fun," because that doesn't make sense in real life, but...there are some pretty entertaining ways to die in a video game.

But what about PvP? When the giant tank becomes another player, is that a play mechanic that we can groove on?

[Venkman]

Was the other guy a battlemech? :)

I get the question though. It's not intuitive if one grunt with a pistol can take out a Battlemech, unless it was pure luck/one-in-a-million. I don't know the circumstance in PS, but it seems like it's something like that.

Ogre would be an interesting concept for a PvP encounter, but I think it would be tweaked so that in a, say, 20 on 20 battle, there'd be 20 grunts on one side and 20 people in the Ogre on the other, controlling the various weapons, treads, etc. It would be a bit like a Y8 vs a few single-person ships in SWG: JTL. It's plausible by being intuitive (brings back memories of mining with my buddy. He'd be in the Y8 with some crew, and I and a few others would be recon and perimeter defense... can't they just make a self-contained JTL that only includes the space content)? ;)

[LK]

The Mechs had a weak point and other hard points that someone could get inside their shields with heavy weaponry and cripple the mech.  Mechs have no defense directly underneath or above them, so one guy can parachute down and take out a mech real quick like.  Probably true of any big machine ... without the proper ground support, they are very vulnerable.  But I should be able to crush them underfoot!

[Venkman]

As much as I loved PS back in beta and for a bit of launch, I found there were a number of things that were sorta non-intuitive even then. For example, I loved me my Reaver. Why couldn't I kill infantry with missile splash damage? I think they tweaked that at some point, but it didn't make sense to me. If splash damage would make it too powerful, up the cost for training in. Force it to a higher BR as a result and/or a greater degree of speciality, whatever it takes to make it operate more as expected.

/rant off.

Man. Four years. I gotta let it go 

[LK]

As much as I loved PS back in beta and for a bit of launch, I found there were a number of things that were sorta non-intuitive even then. For example, I loved me my Reaver. Why couldn't I kill infantry with missile splash damage? I think they tweaked that at some point, but it didn't make sense to me. If splash damage would make it too powerful, up the cost for training in. Force it to a higher BR as a result and/or a greater degree of speciality, whatever it takes to make it operate more as expected.

/rant off.

Man. Four years. I gotta let it go 

There are too many superior shooters out now and coming out to even think about an MMO FPS that isn't triple A quality.  If Tabula delivers, great.  But I got an eerie feeling that Hellgate: London is going to supply a better online experience.

And if you hate persistance: Gears of War, Rainbow Six: Vegas, Quake Wars, Battlefield 2142, etc. are all available or will be soon.

When Planetside was on fire, man was it awesome.  But in most cases it was teh suck.