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Author Topic: Tabu..wait... Richard Garriott back from the dead  (Read 146134 times)
Hoax
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Reply #105 on: January 23, 2007, 10:09:29 PM

I agree because I wont waste money on one of the two.

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Sunbury
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Reply #106 on: January 24, 2007, 05:58:33 AM

Speaking of FPS style MMOGs don't forget World War 2 Online (ducks).

Actually, tank to tank combat (once they stopped flying) wasn't bad, because those era (France 40) tanks were pretty slow and turned slowly.

However, infantry combat was flakey in all the same ways as Planetside, even worse, or when trucks got up to full speed it didn't work well either.  (Riders lagging off, client predictors way off, warping, etc).

Those WW2 online flight sims seem popular (at an indie level), I guess again even though the speeds are fast, the predictors can be very acturate due to flight modeling.

SO someone needs to do a FPS style MMO where you have to wear some kind of mech suit all the time, and that suit can't bunny hop or turn too fast, etc, again so it works well with latency and client predictors.
slog
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Reply #107 on: January 24, 2007, 06:20:35 AM

Why isn't it going to have pvp?

PvP is hard and Gariott still hasn't figured out how to do PvE yet.

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Reply #108 on: January 24, 2007, 10:14:50 AM

No PvP = No money from me. Bashing foozles gets really fucking old really fucking quickly.

When speaking of the MMOG industry, the glass may be half full, but it's full of urine. HaemishM

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Reply #109 on: January 24, 2007, 11:54:52 AM

You guys keep saying there will be no PvP, and I keep quoting the article where they said they're going to have matched PvP events.

Scroll back! Scroll, I tell you!

But that Captain's salami tray was tight, yo. You plump for the roast pork loin, dogg?

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Reply #110 on: January 24, 2007, 01:21:47 PM

Speaking of FPS style MMOGs don't forget World War 2 Online (ducks).

SO someone needs to do a FPS style MMO where you have to wear some kind of mech suit all the time, and that suit can't bunny hop or turn too fast, etc, again so it works well with latency and client predictors.

Something like Dark Horizons: Lore Invasion maybe?

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Reply #111 on: January 24, 2007, 01:47:07 PM

SO someone needs to do a FPS style MMO where you have to wear some kind of mech suit all the time, and that suit can't bunny hop or turn too fast, etc, again so it works well with latency and client predictors.
EA killed BT 3025 years ago...

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Hoax
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Reply #112 on: January 24, 2007, 02:26:43 PM

Fuck that was a good game...  Even though it was incredibly simplistic and there were some flaws (they needed to redesign hitboxes hella bad on some mechs) it was proof positive that fun gameplay can be > polish.  I have no idea why they killed it everyone who played it loved it so much...

 Sad Panda

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Calandryll
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Reply #113 on: January 24, 2007, 02:58:24 PM

Fuck that was a good game...  Even though it was incredibly simplistic and there were some flaws (they needed to redesign hitboxes hella bad on some mechs) it was proof positive that fun gameplay can be > polish.  I have no idea why they killed it everyone who played it loved it so much...

 Sad Panda
From what I recall, there were a lot of legal issues surrounding the license and who owned it. I don't remember the exact details, but it was more about that than it was the game itself or EA wanting to kill it. I could be wrong though.

BT was never going to be a huge breakout success, but it was a hell of a lot of fun and it had a lot of great concepts. Limiting the mech "tonnage" you could bring onto a planet was a great way to let new players game with their friends and still be integral to the success of their House without getting stomped by an Atlas every time. I got more kills using my Javelin on the medium planets than I did using it on the light planets. I really liked that game.

Like the miniature game though, the medium laser was still too powerful. ;)
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Reply #114 on: January 24, 2007, 11:53:09 PM

EA killed BT 3025 years ago...

Saul, king of the Israelites, had been a big fan of BattleTech... and for the rest of his reign referred to EA as "dirty Philistines".

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Reply #115 on: January 25, 2007, 12:27:09 AM

I've been calling EA "dirty philistines" ever since they made Origin "the Ultima company".

Some other thread around here has me saying how BT3025 needed firing cones to work.  Calandryll's saying copyright may have been the knife in the back that killed it is more feasible than my not liking a fundamental aspect of the balance.

So, people who are damning Tabula Rasa on having nonexistant match-based PvP... 
Killing the foozles is just boring, but killing the foozles so you can kill the players is alright?

Me, I don't think it's about the foozles, I think it's about the gameplay.  If Tabula Rasa plays fun and stays that way, I'll never see the grind.


Hoax
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Reply #116 on: January 25, 2007, 04:40:13 AM

Even at 5am that grief title made me laugh out loud.  Fucking awesome.


Cone of firing and some hitbox adjustment, everyone knew that.  Pinpoint accuracy overpowered alpha strikes.  Esp the all medium laser Jenner alpha.


Yes if a game is fun to play, then it is fun.  Thanks for that.  Ok seriously now about the "pve ok to get to pvp" comment which I think is a valid question.  Think more, pve ok because there is something to get to I care about instead of more pve.

A nation consists of its laws. A nation does not consist of its situation at a given time. If an individual's morals are situational, then that individual is without morals. If a nation's laws are situational, that nation has no laws, and soon isn't a nation.
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Reply #117 on: February 18, 2007, 07:49:25 AM

Lord British interviewed about Tabula Rasa at Voodoo Extreme.

Highlights:

    - Closed beta with thousands of invites witin "a month or so".
    - How combat works.
    - How much solo and group content. And instances.
    - Endgame, quests, storytelling and choices.
    - Character progression.
    - PvP, and Turf Wars (!).



Quote
VE3D: I haven't seen Tabula Rasa since E3. What's been happening?

Richard Garriott: So just before Christmas break we started with outside beta testers—what we call "friends and family"—[and] we've been slowly expanding a few hundred at a time. In the next build, we're going to be moving up to the point where we'll be bringing in thousands of people at a time—and pretty soon going to closed beta within a month or so, where we'll have hopefully tens of thousands…then later in the summer to Open Beta where we have basically anyone who wants to play. So we're in that final push to launch at this stage. Tabula Rasa will come out this year. We don't have a public specific date yet, but definitely the light is at the end of the tunnel. We're tying up the loose ends and polishing it up so we can get it out the door.

(Click to Enlarge!)

VE3D: Which features of the game have you guys been focusing on most in the last few months?

Richard Garriott: I'd say missions and combat are the two areas we've been focusing on most. Hopefully what you got a taste of, even at E3, is what I believe is a powerful blend of user-interface style. Instead of like with most MMOs in combat, you highlight a target, then you ignore the target, because he's just going to stand there and whack you—and you are staring at the interface and clicking fireball/fireball/swordswing/healing potion—Tabula Rasa is a game where you're really shooting through the reticle. You're constantly observing what's happening on the screen where you're aiming. It's still a role-playing game in the sense of when you shoot at something, it's based on your equipment and attributes as to who will be injured…but they're not just sitting there hitting you. Your opponent is moving and is aware of, say, if you're behind sand bags, he has a lower probability of hitting you, so he may instead run around to the side, kick you to the ground and start rifle-butting you as required, or however they can find their best position to engage you.

So it's no longer what I consider plodding-MMO-historical-type. This is an action-based role-playing game where you're having to pay more attention to what's going on on the battlefield.

VE3D: So you have things like flanking in the [NPC] AI?

Richard Garriott: Exactly. That's one of the things we've been most pleased with. When you think about most MMOs, once you've determined your best weapon and method of distributing damage, you basically end up doing that repetitively with each opponent you encounter. We've worked very hard to make sure that each creature has an AI associated with it that will change the way you need to engage it. It goes through simple things, like damage types and resistances that will make you change weapon types or abilities you're using; but the more interesting things are those that will require you to change the way you need to engage them.

So, for example, one of the opponents is the Shield Drone. An enemy Shield Drone protects nearly perfectly the enemies protected by it, so they can shoot you, but you can't shoot them. So the only way to disrupt that circumstance is for a member of your party to essentially sacrifice themselves, run inside the Shield Drone area—which now means they're going to be hand-to-hand with every person inside that Shield Drone—and they're going to have to, once inside, take out the shield drone. And so the rest of your group will focus on keeping that person alive for however long it takes for that person to take the Shield Drone down. And so I think it makes the battlefields more interesting.

VE3D: What would you say is the mix of content between solo and group/raid stuff?

Richard Garriott: It's pretty close to 50/50. The square footage in our game is a mix between public spaces and private places—about a 50/50 mix also. In most MMOs, the way public spaces work, to the north of the town is where the Level 1 monsters spawn, to the west is where the Level 2 monsters spawn, east is Level 3, etc. So adventurers will go out and play "whack-a-mole" and farm the monsters, and when [they] finish, the monsters will spawn back right where they were, so the next person can come farm.

I find that boring. It's perfectly suitable for where we are in the evolution of the genre, but I think we can do much better. The way we tackle that in Tabula Rasa is, first of all, it has a more dynamic battlefield. First of all, along the boundary between the main human area and the Bane (which we call the enemy), we've scattered what we call Control Points, which are patterned largely after what you might see in some first-person shooters--; they are basically Capture the Flag-style outposts. When one side captures one of these outposts, the outpost converts to a support system for whichever side that captures it. For example, there're vendors that come online which you may not have access to otherwise, or the NPCs that give or finish missions come online or offline. There's a waypoint system that is accessible or not, based upon the status of that Control Point, and there's a hospital usually associated with them that is available as a respawn point [for the controlling faction].

So, the shared spaces are non-static. Enemies may start at their bases and work their way out along these Control Points. You can cut off supply lines at the source versus just having them appear in the field beside you. We think it makes a much more realistic world. So that's what I call the improvements in the shared spaces—in the group activities.

But then the instances we use for storytelling. If you think about [typical] solo-player games, they did a great job of making you feel special, but you had to play alone. In most MMOs, they don't really try to do a lot of storytelling, because it's frankly hard to do in a shared space. In most MMOs, instances are used for when you're fighting the big dragon and going for the big drop. You're not competing with all the other players for the once-in-a-thousand-times-it's-going-to-drop-something something special—but it's just a random collection of monsters and treasure.

We use our instances as a storytelling space, so it becomes much more like a solo player game. There are lots of puzzles and traps, and NPCs that advance you through the story. There are some instances meant for you to play by yourself, but many of them you can play with your party of friends. You and your friends together will be accomplishing some great goal that will give you the feeling you've accomplished something very special as a group.

 VE3D: How do you envision the "end game," so to speak? When you're pimped out and skilled up, what do you envision a player doing at that point?

Richard Garriott: The elder game features include a long list of things, but first let me explain what gets you there. In most MMOs, [your progression] will be through a series of missions that lead you through the leveling process. In Tabula Rasa, each of the worlds we visit has a problem that we're dealing with. For example, the first world you're on has a peaceful indigenous population. If you just nuke the enemies, you might make it uninhabitable for the indigenous population you are there to ostensibly save. When you finish that plotline, you effectively finish that part of the story we're trying to tell; then when you've "graduated," you move on to the next chapter in the story.

In our game, we often give you multiple missions that can't be simultaneously completed, and you'll have to make the difficult decision of "who am I going to help here…what are the ramifications of helping one group over another?"

VE3D: So they're mutually exclusive? Like if you do one...

Richard Garriott: ...the other one's failed. And you'll know—it'll be clear. One of the first ones—one of my favorites is a drug-running mission—there's a group of NPCs that tell you, "Me and my buddy are being forced to stay up all night. We really need a stimulant. Will you help us get this stuff? And it pays well…" A lot of players will take that at face value, figure it's the wrong thing to do, so they're going to turn [the NPCs] in—because there's another guy trying to figure out where all the stim-dust's gone to, the commander of another area. But if you do that, you actually find out that this whole organization is somewhat corrupt, and stim-dust is really needed by a lot of these people, and they really do have trouble finding it, and you've cut off something that's actually a much more sophisticated story than how it appears on the surface. It still doesn't mean it's the right thing to do, to go down one path or the other. We're just full of these kind of ethical parables [requiring you to choose] what would be the right thing to do.

So, anyway, that's what leads you up to the elder game. In most MMOs, the first decision you make is what class you're going to play, and that's a permanent decision for that character. And once you've started leveling, you can't really go check out the other classes without starting over at Level 1. So what I think often happens…people will focus on one character to get up to peak level. If you have to start all over again, that's what I would call one of the "opportunities to exit."

Tabula Rasa has a very different leveling mechanic. We have a class "tree" that your character goes through, and you can load and save your character state all up and down the tree. You can "clone" your character at any point along that tree. What that means is that you can, for example, once you've explored the soldier class up a few levels, you may decide what you really wanted to try was a ranger. Well, that ranger—which has more sniping and spy skills—that branch of the tree may have only been 10 or 15 levels behind you. You can go clone your character back at that branch and explore up the tree the other way. And so we think people will explore a much broader suite of all the content we provide compared to most MMOs.

When you reach Level 50, which is our current cap, that's when your character becomes a General. The more General levels you've reached (stars), then the elder game includes things you can do each time you add a star, but in these higher echelons you get into things like being able to pick up a squad of NPCs that help you and being able to command them around the battlefield. We also have player-versus-player maps that kick in.

That drug-running mission I just told you about is an example that, on the surface of our game, it seems like a simple struggle of humanity trying to survive against the Bane—these evil aliens we're bringing in. But once you get into the game, you realize it's got a little more subtlety to it. The human command is not necessarily the group you may want to align with. The civilization on the first planet you go to may not be where you want to give your allegiance. The Bane are pretty much where you definitely don't want to give your allegiance. But as players get to higher and higher levels, they'll get to create their own factions. You may say, "Look, I agree with saving humanity, but the way they're doing it is all wrong." That gives us our impetus for the player-versus-player part of the game that shows up later on, beyond the impetus of just challenging another player to a duel—which is always fun, too—but the fictional faction battles come in at the higher level of the game.

VE3D: So PvP is a higher-level feature of the game?

Richard Garriott: Well, you can PvP immediately…you can start the game in PvP. But the fictional basis for turf wars comes into play at the higher levels of the game.

VE3D: What's your character's name?

Richard Garriott: What would you guess it would be?

VE3D: Umm...Commander British?

Richard Garriott: It's actually Lord British. Well, that's the character I play—at the moment—because you can clone your character. We have a first and last name capability in the game; that way your reputation follows you no matter what clone you're in. Your reputation goes to your last name, your family name, and each individual character has a first name. So one of my characters is Lord British. I have a female character named Lady British…pick how many variations of Lord and Lady, sons-and-daughters-entourage-British.

WindupAtheist
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Reply #118 on: February 18, 2007, 11:32:16 AM

Lord British is a mangina.  Lawl.

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Venkman
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Reply #119 on: February 18, 2007, 01:25:08 PM

Quote from: Garriot
We're just full of these kind of ethical parables [requiring you to choose] what would be the right thing to do
This is really what I've been hoping he would finally be able to revisit in a game. L1 was done when he got there and L2 seemed to be very much about Korean conventions, so not sure how much creative effect he had on the game. With TR, I'd been hoping he could bring some of the accountability I remember from Ultima IV/V so well. This may or not work as he describes in that one statement, but it's good enough to at least hear someone talking like this. Currently, "Faction" is little more than what you need in order to access places and vendor stores, from EQ1 on forward.

Quote
The more General levels you've reached (stars), then the elder game includes things you can do each time you add a star, but in these higher echelons you get into things like being able to pick up a squad of NPCs that help you and being able to command them around the battlefield.
That's cool. Sounds a bit like the NPCs of GW. Maybe we can control them individually, RTS style. Won't know until beta.

Quote
Well, you can PvP immediately…you can start the game in PvP. But the fictional basis for turf wars comes into play at the higher levels of the game.
About time. I never could believe this game wouldn't have PvP at some point, given the combat mechanic. Just didn't make any sense. I guess they prioritized it? Or did they simply not bother discussing it and letting people (including myself) think it'd not have a PvP component?
Margalis
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Reply #120 on: February 18, 2007, 01:29:18 PM

Quote
That's one of the things we've been most pleased with. When you think about most MMOs, once you've determined your best weapon and method of distributing damage, you basically end up doing that repetitively with each opponent you encounter. We've worked very hard to make sure that each creature has an AI associated with it that will change the way you need to engage it.

Sounds good to me. A number of other things in there sound promising as well. A psuedo job-system for example.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2007, 06:05:02 PM by Margalis »

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Reply #121 on: February 18, 2007, 05:55:55 PM

Quote from: Lord British
In our game, we often give you multiple missions that can't be simultaneously completed, and you'll have to make the difficult decision of "who am I going to help here…what are the ramifications of helping one group over another?"

This is the part of the interview that sticks out for me. Pulling this off in a way that is both meaningful and enjoyable for the players will be tricky, but I hope they can.

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Reply #122 on: February 18, 2007, 07:39:29 PM

There can only be so many branches/ factions when doing things that way, though.  Too many and you will alienate your customers by ignoring the people who made a different decision than you can come up with new content for.   It'll be interesting to see how 'wide open' it actually is, and how it's handled.

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Reply #123 on: February 19, 2007, 09:11:40 AM

This game sounds like it will be a mess at launch, at least that is my jaded response to that interview.  Trying to do too much, can't even give clear hype-speak on what they are actually doing.  I like the sound of what they are going to try, I think, but I doubt it will all come together.

Looking forward to the OB for this one though.

A nation consists of its laws. A nation does not consist of its situation at a given time. If an individual's morals are situational, then that individual is without morals. If a nation's laws are situational, that nation has no laws, and soon isn't a nation.
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SnakeCharmer
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Reply #124 on: February 19, 2007, 10:18:30 AM

Maybe my jade-o-meter hasn't reached the levels of critical mass that nearly everyone else's has, but for some reason, the more info they release about the game, the more excited I get.  The graphics look good, the gameplay mechanic seems interesting, and the storyline is decent.

Wish the fuckers would make a better site, thou....
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Reply #125 on: February 19, 2007, 10:30:22 AM

There can only be so many branches/ factions when doing things that way, though.  Too many and you will alienate your customers by ignoring the people who made a different decision than you can come up with new content for.   It'll be interesting to see how 'wide open' it actually is, and how it's handled.

I suspect that within a couple weeks the usual sites will have detailed guides that show the 'optimum' path through the various competing quests and within a couple months anyone asking for help on something not on that path will be shouted down as a noob.
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Reply #126 on: February 20, 2007, 03:18:28 AM

From the last part of Richard Garriott interview.

Quote
VE3D: I don't think players think about MMOs as having a lot of AI. They think of them as having scripting.

Richard Garriott: They don't, right. Literally even the tutorial map, which you'll be able to play at GDC [in March], it's really funny to watch people who are uninitiated to Tabula Rasa. Either they treat it like a first-person shooter and start jumping up and down and zigzagging, thinking it will make a difference, which it doesn't. What we have to educate people to is that the targeting is "sticky," you still have to aim through the reticle, say I'm going to shoot you, and if he runs under cover, you still need to move so you can get a bead on him, but the targeting reticle sticks to who you mean to be targeted to, so it's not an arcade game.

And the other behavior is people treat it like a traditional MMO, and you just target the guy and ignore him while you fireball/fireball/sword swing/healing potion. Whereas right in that same intro sequence you are taught, here's a group of sandbags right beside you. If you step behind the sandbags and kneel down, now when they shoot at you, the hit probabilities and indicators show you down behind cover—now you can face the whole storm of guys coming at you and pick 'em off, no problem.

It's getting people to realize now that it's neither extreme of the mind numbing whack-a-mole, nor the dexterity-based jump-up-and-down-and-zigzag. It becomes now tactical—where I really need to consider what group of opponents they are, how they are going to move, what's their sensitivity, how smart are they and therefore now I'm going to make judgments as to what I'm going to do. But that becomes apparent to you right at the beginning of the game.

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Reply #127 on: February 20, 2007, 09:06:29 AM

It sounds like they intend to put the fun up front. I hope they do.

I have never played WoW.
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Reply #128 on: February 20, 2007, 09:52:11 AM

He talks good talk, and NCSoft certainly has been patient in terms of giving him time to finish.  But as much as I want to be a Lord British fanboy, I just can't.  I'll need to see some execution to go alongside all those nifty concepts.

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Reply #129 on: February 20, 2007, 02:38:52 PM

At least he has some nifty concepts. We were talking about this very thing recently - different enemies behaving differently, with different movement and attack patterns, instead of every encounter in the entire game being the exact same.

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Reply #130 on: February 23, 2007, 05:51:34 AM

I've, err, "heard" that beta invites went out for those who were on the Benefactor Stone Promotional thing from E3 last year (or was that two years ago now?). Do we think it worth having a forum set up for it, one that could be closed once the game launches or the beta dropped?
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Reply #131 on: February 23, 2007, 10:18:35 AM

I've, err, "heard" that beta invites went out for those who were on the Benefactor Stone Promotional thing from E3 last year (or was that two years ago now?). Do we think it worth having a forum set up for it, one that could be closed once the game launches or the beta dropped?

I've already mentioned I had my Benefactor Stone piece of cardboard.

Other then that, NDA.

But yeah, a forum might be fun.

But that Captain's salami tray was tight, yo. You plump for the roast pork loin, dogg?

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Reply #132 on: February 23, 2007, 12:29:05 PM


I've already mentioned I had my Benefactor Stone piece of cardboard.


/jealous

I wanna play....:(
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Reply #133 on: March 07, 2007, 05:39:23 PM

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Reply #134 on: March 07, 2007, 06:02:53 PM

Yea, another lame trailer that has people standing around getting shot at. I still have no fucking clue what the gameplay is going to be like.
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Reply #135 on: March 08, 2007, 09:01:17 AM

I have to agree with Trippy. Not sure what these trailers are supposed to accomplish.
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Reply #136 on: March 10, 2007, 04:08:06 AM

It shows what it looks like on a computer newer than mine, I'll tell ya that much :)
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Reply #137 on: March 10, 2007, 05:30:28 AM

Yea, that trailer isn't what I'd call a "high point" in the lifecycle of this title.
Venkman
Terracotta Army
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Reply #138 on: March 10, 2007, 06:31:58 AM

It's kinda funny really. Almost every trailer they've shown hasn't done the game any service. I'm hoping they get a PR agency on board soon, one that can do some good editing. Granted, they can only work with what they can get from the game that exists at that specific time, but still, they really need to drive more info about this title than the weak-wannabe-FPS that these videos come off as showing. They'll never appeal to folks who can immediately tell the difference between TR and real FPS titles, and that's most anyone who's ever played an FPS.
schild
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Reply #139 on: March 10, 2007, 06:41:59 AM

I thought the first trailer with the fucking crazy asian designs and harps as weapons and all the vibrant colors was just goddamn fantastic. Sure, maybe the gameplay sucked, but the look was 9,000 times more appealing and out WoW'd WoW.
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