War December Newsletter + Looks like it's coming to a console

[schild]

My opinion? Due to the success of previous (and current) private forums here, I've no reason to believe this one would be anything other than great.

RE: Tegatana - the difference between us and whatever site you... inhabit.. is that we'd know about that lawsuit and have beaten it to death with a club and then complained about the HAM mechanic. In the same thread.

[Falconeer]

I have seen it happen while i was working in the gaming industrie,

Tegatana from Shadowbane Europe (aka: "we are sorry, no Shadowbane Europe"), I suppose. Wanted to ask this since message #1.

[kenrio]

please more chao's screenshots.

Sorry if i change of subject 

[Rasix]

Grand.

[Megrim]

Grand.

Bwuahahaha, i think i can see the blood leaking out of your ears from here. This is going to be so awesome.

[Strazos]

The forum here would be private for the same reason that some discussion panels at conventions are private - to keep the riffraff out. To keep people from coming in just to cause trouble.

[Megrim]

Dunno, despite being open f13 has always felt like a private community to me. Personally, i dislike the idea of anyone asking Schild for special treatment just because they post here. Personally.

[Strazos]

It feels private because it's, honestly, pretty hostile (relatively) to outsiders. Also, this place has a much higher barrier to entry; specifically, we don't put up with d00dspeak and poorly-written dreck. I still remember getting bitched out in my first handful of posts because I didn't capitalize.

This can all be contrasted with forums at...really any other place on the internet, where the quality of the average post is complete shit. The kind of shit that makes the eyes of people here bleed.

Then again, the intelligence of the average poster here is definitely skewed towards the higher end of the scale compared to most other places.

[Signe]

Awesome is one of the words/phrases that have been banished, along with pwn, Now Showing at Theaters, truthiness and the horrible new custom of combining names of celebrity couples.  (TomKat, Bradgolina)

Just sayin....

2007 List

[Nonentity]

Awesome is one of the words/phrases that have been banished, along with pwn, Now Showing at Theaters, truthiness and the horrible new custom of combining names of celebrity couples.  (TomKat, Bradgolina)

Just sayin....

2007 List

But... I had grandiose plans for my Blood Elf Warlock, Pwnography. Or was it Lolanime?

I can't remember.

[damijin]

As an elitist jerk in most games I play, I see the appeal for a private forum. But uh, there's a little irony, right?

The MMO industry is fucked because of it's incestuous nature, so you should band-aid it by making the family larger, but keep the attitude the same.

On the other hand, I'm totally down with Oedipus and his freaky Greek mother loving, so I fully encourage the idea.

[Fargull]

I don't think it's an either/or situation.  If GvG doesn't matter in RvR, why should a guild bother to put effort to build  a solid team together to help the realm army?  If anybody will do, why put in the effort, better to go to the common area spam the chat channels to get warm bodies. Anybody who attack the called target will do, maybe a healer or two, but who gives a shit as long as they show up.

Hmm.. I don't like that line of thought.  If the RvR is built right, it will attract all players and should not be designed to fit one mold.  The current concept seems to be aimed at providing the four (really three) I mentioned earlier in the thread and has focus for group and raid level (along with open).  If the tailoring of the games PvP is structured for Guild vs Guild (as it appears AOC is going to aim at..) then it is going to force the RvR to become a raid focus (if by GvG you are aiming to the rewards).  What I think would be nice is if part of that RvR structure built in military units instead of group units..  Have a commmander spot (as eldaec mentioned) and then tiered spots down with a bottom rank and file.  You earn the ability to be put into those slots from your contribution as a character in previous RvR, but you are elected, not auto assigned...  Does that make sense?

[eldaec]

It doesn't even have to be elected or anything so complex.

You just do it exactly like group leadership.

Whoever forms the meta-group gets the conch until they quit, give it up, or everyone revolts and joins a different gang. It was normal in daoc to have a chatgroup / battlegroup running for each area on the frontiers, the chatgroup leader then granted speak rights to whomever is the most appropriate battle leader. That system really just needs some spit and polish (waypoints, map marking etc) then you have all the battle direction you really need for a frontier as compex as Daoc's was (and I don't see anything in WAR yet that increases complexity).

Unless you mean a permanent ranking and organisation system? In which case you first need to decide what the organisation is for and what you do when any random subset of that organisation is online, and of course you still need to handle battle direction separately, because you can't (and wouldn't want to) force everyone to follow the guy who got voted in all the time.

[Righ]

Well you got a valid point here, you didn t hear about it, so it doesn t happen :-D

The correct B.net phrase is "screenshot or it didn't happen".

I have seen it happen while i was working in the gaming industrie, but only the REAL big things come up in the press (like someone claiming the idea of Harry Potter is stolen or someone suing Brown over Illuminati). And wasn t the USA the country where you can win files about burning your lips on hot coffee in an MC Donalds Store? :-D

I don't think the Illuminati has been the subject of many of the da Vinci Clone lawsuits. However, the most interesting was Lewis Purdue who wrote pretty much the exact same story two decades earlier (The da Vinci Legacy), and who didn't sue, but instead ended up getting (unsuccessfully) sued by Brown's publisher for having the nerve to point out the hundreds of similarities on his web site.

Off to politics with the comment about lawsuits, lest somebody point out that Germany is the country where one can be sent to jail for thought crimes. Oops.

Also, none of your points were either about WAR or MMORPG design concepts, so both our comments helped define the reason MJ doesn't want to discuss stuff in open forums. :P

[Lum]

DAoC was the forthcoming of god. And ltm/SND his herald.

That's a proven truth. Then there were a few sporadic voices. They told that DAoC wasn't all good, that it also has some dark spots, that it wasn't all perfect and that Mythic's was trying to just control and pilot the community for their only interest. Those players were banned and from there started a whole lot of drama.

This would be one of those threads that Sanya would come down from her office and yell at me once she saw me posting in it. As she's now limited to yelling at me via an IM window, let me just say this.

I have seen these sorts of accusations over the past 5 years. I am very tired of them. There was no conspiracy to make DAOC look good.

I was the editor of the website in question. I was also in the DAOC beta and liked it. Which I then posted in a preview that I did. You know, that's sort of what people do. The DAOC dev team was very good at viral marketing. They also happened to make a pretty good game, one that aimed itself (consensual PVP) squarely at the market of our web site.

So we were excited, but to say we were unpaid/paid shills is at best a vile slander and at worse actionable slander. And when you jump from that (as many do) to say that my hiring by Mythic was a quid pro quo compensation - that makes me want to sue people, or at a bare minimum punch them in the mouth. Why don't you accuse me of raping babies, too, that's almost better in my hiearchy of honor than what you're accusing me of. Seriously, die. For the record, I sent Mythic a resume months earlier when I was looking, had Dave Rickey told me I had no chance, and forgot about it till Matt Firor called me the day I was laid off. There's your quid pro quo, enjoy.

As for the Masked Gunmen whom were horribly banned; one of them was trolling my blog about it this weekend. Almost SIX YEARS LATER. Now, maybe I'm a little out of line but I personally think that that may be something of a long time to hold a grudge over a website banning.

HRose, you are on crack. You're not only posting 6 year old gossip, you're posting false 6 year old gossip. Stop it. Just stop it. Let Mark and company make Warhammer (I wish them well, and plz don't make the orks suck because I like things orky), let me move on to make my own damn game, and for the love of god LET THE BONE GO.

[Righ]

plz don't make the orks suck because I like things orky

QFT. (Not that the rest wasn't true, but this part was my favorite).

[Signe]

I finally found a common thread between Lum and Righ.  They both love non-sucky orcs.

And, yeah... I'm not usually mean to you, HRose, or even critical but I have to agree with Lum... let it go.

And shave.   

[Nebu]

Thanks Lum.  While I appreciate the passion HRose has for gaming, it's sometimes misplaced.

[HRose]

Hmm.. I don't like that line of thought.  If the RvR is built right, it will attract all players and should not be designed to fit one mold.  The current concept seems to be aimed at providing the four (really three) I mentioned earlier in the thread and has focus for group and raid level (along with open).  If the tailoring of the games PvP is structured for Guild vs Guild (as it appears AOC is going to aim at..) then it is going to force the RvR to become a raid focus (if by GvG you are aiming to the rewards).  What I think would be nice is if part of that RvR structure built in military units instead of group units..  Have a commmander spot (as eldaec mentioned) and then tiered spots down with a bottom rank and file.  You earn the ability to be put into those slots from your contribution as a character in previous RvR, but you are elected, not auto assigned...  Does that make sense?

Ah-ha!

That was one of my very old ideas, the "battle system". Very similar to what you describe.

The theory was that large battles aren't really designed to be so, they are only scaled-up group vs group. The game mechanics usually aren't planned on anything above the group scale and that's the reason why large scale battles in today's mmorpgs aren't really deep. It's because they are underdeveloped.

The idea I had is that you achieve PvP points and unblock special PvP classes. Each PvP class doesn't just give you special powers, but also precise and different objectives/roles on the battlefield. Like taking the structure of an RTS (whether it is Dawn of War or Medieval 2) and adding that layer to normal PvP.

At the same time the PvP class that you unblocked by earning points isn't automatically "usable", but you have to organize a "battlegroup" with team-leaders, division and everything. An organized structure. So, for example, the "team-leader" position would become available only when the group has already other 10 players in lower ranks.

This was intended also as a balancing mechanic. In the kind of PvP progression we have today, PvP points and skills are like a normal treadmill. Think about DAoC, for example. You gain Realm Ranks and you can group with all high ranked players to have a much more powerful group. It becomes a requirement if you want to play competitively (so the increasing gap between noobs and veterans).

Instead a battle system guarantees the equal-footing. You cannot make a group made just of team leaders with powerful skills, because you can only have 1 team leader every 10 players that are "soldiers". So only one every ten, in every case, will be a team leader and will have the team leader skills. Even if that group is made just by veteran players who capped their PvP points.

The point was then to come out with many different and "fun" roles to guarantee variety and that everyone has something fun to do no matter of the battle rank. So relying more on the diversification between the ranks/classes more than just scaled up powers.

I also made some concrete examples about the powers. For example leaders had morale and attack bonuses for all the players in the squad that remain close to its leader (made visible on the battlefield by a big flag). Or the possibility to cast a big energy barrier that covers a rather big zone, with a duration of one minute or so and that can be used as a rally point. To reorganize troops (large battles are usually a mess and visible rally points could help a lot to organize the action). The idea is that the barrier prevents the melee enemies to enter (if they weren't already inside before it was casted) and reduces ranged damage up to a 90%. So it would work more like a "timeout" to breathe and heal just in time for it to wear off and charge the enemy.

So, really, skills and powers that are DESIGNED with large battles in mind. That can affect an army, that make the landscape meaningful. Because today the zerg vs zerg is objectively underdeveloped. The problem is not that it isn't fun, the problem is that noone has really paid attention and polished it so that it would be cool to play and deep.

[Sanya@Mythic]

Sniff. I WAS the viral marketing, Scott honey. I was a dirty, filthy sellout two months before you were, jerkface.

P.S. My team trolls everywhere that metaphorical Mary goes, for the lambs are sure to go as well. I was sort of hoping this place would stay... well, whatever "pure" is, for F13. Which is why you'll almost never see me post here, but I had to respond to Scott's vile calumny.


Sanya M. Thomas
Director of Community Relations
EA Mythic

[Nonentity]

Sniff. I WAS the viral marketing, Scott honey. I was a dirty, filthy sellout two months before you were, jerkface.

P.S. My team trolls everywhere that metaphorical Mary goes, for the lambs are sure to go as well. I was sort of hoping this place would stay... well, whatever "pure" is, for F13. Which is why you'll almost never see me post here, but I had to respond to Scott's vile calumny.


Sanya M. Thomas
Director of Community Relations
EA Mythic

I have the distinct feeling we're being watched.

[Fargull]

Instead a battle system guarantees the equal-footing. You cannot make a group made just of team leaders with powerful skills, because you can only have 1 team leader every 10 players that are "soldiers". So only one every ten, in every case, will be a team leader and will have the team leader skills. Even if that group is made just by veteran players who capped their PvP points.

Kinda what I had in mind.. but I was also thinking.. that (as example) a scout group could be setup (class does not limit whom can join) that everyone receives a marker power to place that will create something like a target (on the global map) but also display as say a flare or such in game.

You can flag your character as to what squad type you would like to join and would be added when an opening existed or if the total squad roster has not been filled up.

As Eldaec mentioned though, keeping it simple would be the best idea.

[HRose]

So we were excited, but to say we were unpaid/paid shills is at best a vile slander and at worse actionable slander.

I don't think that and I've written in many occasion that I justify what you did. As everyone else I made my own opinion about what happened but I won't go in detail exactly because it's a dead point. What isn't dead, and what I brought up earlier in this thread, is an attitude of Mythic, Mark Jacobs in particular that is as "fresh" as always.

What Mark Jacobs did here, asking his private forum because HE thinks (not me, I never asked special treatments ANYWHERE) he is the special snowflake that deserves a different treatment from ALL other devs that also post on F13. He is just as bossy as ever. And what I hated the most is that he tried to portray me as his personal stalker who registered on this forum just to troll him.

Hello? If there's someone out there who REALLY loves to write ideas, critics, constructive proposals about game design IT'S ME. And in all this time I believe at the very least that I demonstrated it. In fact not long ago I explained in my blog that I was posting less and less on F13 because the discussions were so filled with inside-jokes between each other that the actual discussions about GAMES were sporadic.

So let's stop about talking about this and lets talk about games! Isn't that what Mark asked? I'm ALL for it. The point, the real point, is that what Mark asked is a JOKE. Because we do a lot of that ALREADY and he COULDN'T CARE LESS till two days ago. And just because he brings the implicit promise of candies, beta slots and "WAR swag" ALL the members of this forum started to drool on him.

Where the fuck is your dignity, I wonder? But that's not the point.

I doubt he is here to talk sincerely and passionately about games. Because if it was true then he had in me one of the strongest supporters. And surely he would have participated in the community before. Instead he couldn't be more out of place around here. If not for the legitimation that the "red name" offers.

The truth is that he couldn't care less about talking with "us" or he would have done it before. Raph is one who really looks for those discussions and he demonstrated it along the years without asking for any special treatment. You can easily say when someone is sincerely one of "us", or when he is just after something else that has very little in common with our passion.

There's a very evident line between those who are sincerely passionate and interested in a discussion and those who are here for much different purposes. When I read what Mark wrote I just wanted to make people notice that. I failed, but I'm still convinced of what I think.

Now let's talk about games?

[Nebu]

I really don't see what's wrong with having a private forum that improves signal to noise.  I'd say the fact that he requested it here says a little something about the people that frequent these forums.

[WayAbvPar]

HRose, STFU and remove yourself from this thread for a bit.

[Furiously]

I'm not a huge fan of ivory towers and intellectual elitism, but I'm not too fond of pages 2-5 of this thread either.

Would read access for "the many" and posting privileges for the "the few" be a horrid thing? And perhaps add in a gimick account the many could PM to add to the discussion?

[Nonentity]

I'd like to indicate that this thread reminds me of a soap opera, except with game developers, community managers, and verbose fans instead of doctors, spiteful housewives, and scheming siblings.

Please don't make it any more of a soap opera. If anyone reveals in this thread that they're someone's actual father, I'm leaving.

[MarkJacobs]

Folks,

   Just so you know, not only is Scott telling the truth regarding SJ/Mythic, he did forget to mention one tiny detail or two:

1) When we hired him we were in desperate need of a database programmer and what did Scott J. do for a living at the time?  Well natch, he was a database programmer (with just a wee bit of game playing experience) and the best candidate in the pool by far.

2) His contribution to DAoC's launch and success was anything but minor.  He did a great job for us at a critical time in DAoC's development and for that, he has my longstanding thanks and respect.  Let me be a bit blunt about this, anyone who says differently is either stupid, lying and/or living in their own reality.  He did a hell of a job for us and that, unlike many things, is simply a matter of record (or in Scott's case, lines and lines and lines of code).  And frankly, anyone who thinks I'd hire someone simply because they say nice things about us (or don't say tough things about us), especially then when we were a whopping 16 or so people when Scott was hired, doesn't know me worth jack. 

Mark

   

[damijin]

OT because the T is fubar

Folk,

What's the deal with "Folks,"?
I've wondered this for a long time.

(P.S. nuke the thread for great justice to all involved)

[MarkJacobs]

Damijin,

   Ah, the "Folks" is the way I've always spoken to/with the community/thread when I address it as a whole.  I don't know when I started using it but it was way before DAoC I believe.  Keep in mind that I've been talking to communities since the GEnie days (mid-80s) and it seemed a better thing to say then "Hey you guys/gals" or some other such way. :) I used it here out of habit, and you know what they say about old habits.

Mark 

[WayAbvPar]

Hey 'tards just doesn't have that community feel to it.

[eldaec]

Would read access for "the many" and posting privileges for the "the few" be a horrid thing? And perhaps add in a gimick account the many could PM to add to the discussion?

Yes, you'd just end up attracting the flames to the main forum thanks to the gift of quote tags.

Just inviting the devs to the usual private beta forum isn't likely to make the sky fall though.

[WindupAtheist]

Hey wait, does this mean we ARE getting a private "talk about game design" forum?

PS, EDIT:

You're just worried this thread may challenge your UO and SW threads for 100 page uber-thread dominance.

That last Vanguard thread died on page 29, meaning the record for the only 30+ page threads on f13 being about UO and Star Wars is still alive.  Buahahahahaha.

[HRose]

As Eldaec mentioned though, keeping it simple would be the best idea.

Yeah, my original idea was kind of messy, but there are certain ways to keep it simple. Today I would probably design things in a different way.

Anyway, it's a matter of presentation. In my idea you had a battle group panel with all the possible divisions. From there the leader would just "drag&drop" players into specific roles. Not much different from WoW's raid UI, just with more differentiated groups and purposes.

This general idea about PvP classes was inspired by Planetside. But the problem is still there: what kind of PvP progression?

In WoW it's gear, in DAoC it's power-ups. Both are treadmills that create gaps between players and ultimately unbalance the game and make PvP unfun.

From a side you need hooks, rewards, achievements. The carrot. Form the other you need to keep the players together and the PvP balanced so that everyone has a chance to win. My idea was an awkward attempt to join the two.

[stray]

Today I would probably design things in a different way.

You are not "designing" and will never "design" anything. Stop talking like that. You can't even design a coherent post.