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f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  MMOG Discussion  |  Topic: War December Newsletter + Looks like it's coming to a console 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
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Author Topic: War December Newsletter + Looks like it's coming to a console  (Read 138404 times)
Typhon
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Reply #105 on: December 30, 2006, 08:40:34 AM


7) If you're going to have some bonus for "capturing the flag" (i.e. relics in DAoC), make sure that the bonus isn't unbalancing.  A 20% bonus is obscene when given to the realm that already has enough power to capture the flags.

7a) In the vain of above: Create incentives to play as the underdog... else you'll see many people jumping ship to play with the winning side.   

...

9) Battlegrounds are fun, but they can also be a distraction.  When a portion of the playerbase would rather participate in the BG's than the endgame, you may want to ask yourself "why?".


Good summary.  I'm trying to hold off posting to see if we're gonna do the private forum thing, as a fan of DAOC RvR I'd like to be included.

That said, I strongly agree with item 7.  CoH character customization and DAOC housing seem like popular, non-combate related areas to invest in rewards (access to character/weapon auras, housing items - epeen stuff, versus significant improvement to the ability to wage war)

My take on 9 is, battlegrounds are fun, so make them a part of the end-game in the way that Darniaq was talking about (the "PvP as sport" > "total immersion PvP").  e.g. Chaos+Greenbacks must win best of X battlegrounds to take the currently contested land (which should change npcs and fortifications over to chaos troops) in addition to open-warfare siege PvP.
Venkman
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Reply #106 on: December 30, 2006, 09:38:23 AM

Quote from: Nebu
9) Battlegrounds are fun, but they can also be a distraction.  When a portion of the playerbase would rather participate in the BG's than the endgame, you may want to ask yourself "why?".
Actually, you want to ask "why is that bad?"

PvP does not need to be relevant and world impacting. I appreciate Stray's point, but the more immersive it is, the more world impacting, the more relevant, the less people will want to partake because they'll be shouldered out by the truly dedicated. You can have some world-changing events, but do them as story arc/chapters, on a periodic basis. In between is for micro-rewards.

I just want to ensure there's balance between what was good about DAoC PvP and recognition about what so many gamers are interested in doing.
Arthur_Parker
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Reply #107 on: December 30, 2006, 10:47:45 AM

Lemme guess, Warhammer google alerts?

The current top front page news item on warhammer alliance links right to here.

They now have their own discussion going and I'll quote you the 2nd post.

Quote from: Kromlech
First!

GREAT find Garth, thanks!

That's a lot of great info, and I for one am going to register over at f13.

Later!
Ironwood
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Reply #108 on: December 30, 2006, 10:53:46 AM

Good God.

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
Modern Angel
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Reply #109 on: December 30, 2006, 10:57:41 AM

The horror... the horror...

I think Mark got scared off now anyway.  cry
Arthur_Parker
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Reply #110 on: December 30, 2006, 10:59:41 AM

Execute plan orange.
Venkman
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Reply #111 on: December 30, 2006, 11:46:49 AM

The horror... the horror...

I think Mark got scared off now anyway.  cry
It's Saturday :)
Signe
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Reply #112 on: December 30, 2006, 12:17:40 PM

They are coming. 

My Sig Image: hath rid itself of this mortal coil.
waylander
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Reply #113 on: December 30, 2006, 12:24:05 PM

Who cares if Warhammer Alliance got the info. Sanya and their CM's troll that place quite frequently, so I doubt many would swarm to a place like this. Besides people have to earn their stripes around here, and its not like some newb is going to be put in any private group.

But at least we're having a good discussion.

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stray
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Reply #114 on: December 30, 2006, 12:42:34 PM

I appreciate Stray's point, but the more immersive it is, the more world impacting, the more relevant, the less people will want to partake because they'll be shouldered out by the truly dedicated.

What you should be afraid of is bad implementation. Not entire concepts. Not the possibilities of the genre itself.

Any of the historical problems you point out about persistent/world changing pvp can be fixed and were due to bad execution in one way or another.

And besides, I think some of these problems are only imagined anyways. Their PvP systems are just a scapegoat. Any one of these games' failures to "bring out WoW numbers" (A stupid and unfair criteria for success to begin with. I'm fucking sick to death of hearing it) came down to things that had nothing to do with pvp at all. People complain about SB.EXE far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far more than they do it's pvp system. People complain about the gold farming aftermath of defeat more than the pvp itself.  

Hell, I guarantee that if Shadowbane was strictly a PvE game, but with all the sensibilities and technical problems of the real one, it would have failed in like manner. If Eve didn't have PvP, it still wouldn't have any more subscribers than it already does. Their lack of appeal is due to all kinds of things. Because they don't have WoW Battlegrounds is not it.

[EDIT] Besides all that, half (if not most?) of WoW's servers are open pvp, with plenty of intrusions on people in a far more shitty, unpoliced way than Shadowbane. Explain that. Not even everyone playing WoW is playing it the way you think it's being played.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2006, 01:12:24 PM by Stray »
Strazos
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Reply #115 on: December 30, 2006, 01:46:38 PM

Nice to see some constructive discussions going on. Anyway...

I really like PvP. And I don't have anything against Mythic or the Warhammer IP, so I would be perfectly willing to give this a shot. Also, even though I really like the IDEA of a game with open, focused PvP, the actual execution in pretty much every other MMO I have played has been abysmal; in most games, the classes/abilities/items are balanced primarily for PvE, so some people can be royally screwed in PvP. If you're going to make a game with a focus towards PvP, for the love of god, Balance for it.

And onto something I just thought of...I don't know what the IP will and will not allow you guys to do with classes within the game, but please, Differentiate your classes. Substantially. For instance, with rogues - please, don't just make them melee wizards. I for one will not play another fantasy MMO that reduces a rogue to simply close-range DPS. Give the rogue, along with other classes, Something Else to do. Let me sneak into places and cause havoc. Let me don disguises to wreak destruction among enemy ranks (you can even make me use Disguise Kit reagents or something). Also, I'm in favor of ditching "Invis" stealth, but that does not mean you should totally drop the idea. Make me walk silently or something. Take off my nameplate. Maybe a little camo or something. My point is, give different classes DIFFERENT interesting things to do besides attack or heal (directly).

Oh, and on the subject of the private boards and the news bulletin over at that Warhammer site...Yeah, keeping any Warhammer dev forum we may form private, even if I do not get in, is probably a great idea. Reading their thread over there was...painful. Also comical. Barbarians at the gates and all that.

Edit: Grammar.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2006, 02:22:22 PM by Strazos »

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stray
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Reply #116 on: December 30, 2006, 01:49:22 PM

There won't be any stealth classes in WAR.
angry.bob
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Reply #117 on: December 30, 2006, 02:20:31 PM

Oh, and on the subject of the private boards and the news bulletin over at that Warhammer site...Yeah, keeping any Warhammer dev forum we may form private, even if I do not get in, is probably a great idea. Read their thread over there was...painful. Also comical. Barbarians at the gates and all that.


I think the simplest solution would be for Mark to give us beta accounts and we set up the private board, or alternately, Schild could make me a moderator.  Either one would work pretty well I think.

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Signe
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Reply #118 on: December 30, 2006, 02:36:00 PM

I would worry for your blood pressure.   undecided

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Strazos
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Reply #119 on: December 30, 2006, 02:41:45 PM

There won't be any stealth classes in WAR.

Doh...well, that solves a whole host of problems I guess.

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Nebu
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Reply #120 on: December 30, 2006, 03:00:41 PM

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE eliminate stuns.  It has ruined my enjoyment of pvp in almost every game in which it existed.  Standing there watching someone kill you while unable to do anything is NOT fun (also see the grapple ability ToA introduced in DAoC... and Forceful Zephyr before it was fixed).

Beyond that, I'll be pretty easy to please.

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
eldaec
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Reply #121 on: December 30, 2006, 03:18:00 PM

Quote from: Nebu
9) Battlegrounds are fun, but they can also be a distraction.  When a portion of the playerbase would rather participate in the BG's than the endgame, you may want to ask yourself "why?".
Actually, you want to ask "why is that bad?"

PvP does not need to be relevant and world impacting.

I'd agree it doesn't....

...if you were trying to make a PvP group vs group game based on individual matches. (Games like Counterstrike, Chess, or Cricket do just fine)

If you are trying to make a Realm vs Realm game then those matches need to connect up, else it's all just a bunch of individual teams who hate each other - and probably don't care a jot whether their realmmates are being successful,

At the very least you need something to help everyone keep score. And if you can keep score in-game by pushing the front line forward/back then so much the better.


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Fargull
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Reply #122 on: December 30, 2006, 04:00:15 PM

Actually, you want to ask "why is that bad?"

PvP does not need to be relevant and world impacting. I appreciate Stray's point, but the more immersive it is, the more world impacting, the more relevant, the less people will want to partake because they'll be shouldered out by the truly dedicated. You can have some world-changing events, but do them as story arc/chapters, on a periodic basis. In between is for micro-rewards.

Actually, I think the question is more Why is this Bad and can that aspect be fixed?

I like the idea of a backward impact.  Say a lowering of price across the board in the capital cities.  The ability to buy a squad of grunts to use in an instance run or that only last 5 minutes and such... Nothing huge, but minor things that can be interesting.  Maybe if say the dwarves push the greenskins back and capture the iron valley mine then the option of going and getting a glowing enchantment that will last 24 hours applied to a weapon of choice from the head priest of the temple of war in the main dwarven city.  The glow could include a minor buff or not...

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Reply #123 on: December 30, 2006, 06:17:52 PM

Well, there needs to be something more than GW/WOW's "get stuff" model. One of the appeals of an MMOG (THE appeal for me) is scope. It's a big place that keeps going even when you sleep. I don't think people need to go to the SB extreme when they add their affecting of the world elements but we have game games; there's enough wiggle room to add a little world to the diku. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that a diku with some world is the only way the broader market is going to get any world at all right now; a world first game isn't going to appeal to the companies with the most resources to pull it off in non-crap fashion.

How much influence is too much influence is a matter of taste but surely someone can offer more than Capture the Flag/SHINY!
Venkman
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Reply #124 on: December 30, 2006, 07:38:47 PM

Quote from: Stray
What you should be afraid of is bad implementation. Not entire concepts. Not the possibilities of the genre itself.
LOL. Touche. Seeing as I have been making that point in the Raph thread, I've got to agree :)

You're right, it's the implementation. But business decisions are most often based on precedent. And so far, precedent has shown that the more immersive a game, the more fulltime the experience, the more quickly one can get rusty from being out of play for a few days or by not living the forums 24/7, the fewer people will be attracted. It also shows that delivering a game of appreciable breadth to include ALL levels of the Player Pyramid AND world-impacting relevant PvP (or even just cumulative-result PvP) is so complex, something crucial eventually needs to be sacrificed along the way. Whether it's graphics, UI, content or stability, the magnitude of delivery is beyond reality.

My expectations for WAR are based on history, so fairly average. The singlemindedness of Mythic with funding and currently hands-off attitude of EA emulating the UI of WoW with a lore of similar appeal. Could mean good things. But I don't expect it to be SB done right. More like WoW for folks seeking more relevant PvP. Which is why I think it'll be of more moderate success.

All ideas should be tried until done right. But somebody's gotta pay for it. And convincing them to do so is the real first battle :)
tazelbain
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Reply #125 on: December 30, 2006, 09:05:27 PM


I like the idea of a backward impact.  Say a lowering of price across the board in the capital cities.  The ability to buy a squad of grunts to use in an instance run or that only last 5 minutes and such... Nothing huge, but minor things that can be interesting.  Maybe if say the dwarves push the greenskins back and capture the iron valley mine then the option of going and getting a glowing enchantment that will last 24 hours applied to a weapon of choice from the head priest of the temple of war in the main dwarven city.  The glow could include a minor buff or not...
I like this, but it has to have meaningful to stop the the RvR people from whining about the BG people.  Didn't Mythic add something so that controling the BGs added more guards for you side?  That didn't stop the complaining did it?

Quote
9) Battlegrounds are fun, but they can also be a distraction.  When a portion of the playerbase would rather participate in the BG's than the endgame, you may want to ask yourself "why?".
Well it can't be bad that players are having fun.  Not only "why did some people prefer the battlegrounds?" but "why did it bother people not in the battlegrounds?"

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Nebu
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Reply #126 on: December 30, 2006, 10:09:55 PM

Quote
9) Battlegrounds are fun, but they can also be a distraction.  When a portion of the playerbase would rather participate in the BG's than the endgame, you may want to ask yourself "why?".
Well it can't be bad that players are having fun.  Not only "why did some people prefer the battlegrounds?" but "why did it bother people not in the battlegrounds?"

I think everyone missed my point here. If a portion of the playerbase finds the BG's a more fun version of PvP than the PvP at the endgame, then it's likely due to balance, terrain, etc.  Those things should be considered.  Of course fun is a good thing, but often things like this are a symptom of problems in implementation.

I also think that PvP needs to be meaningful in order to keep retention up.  It doesn't have to be earth-shattering, but it should provide more than just a way to by some second rate equipment.  Why bother to play capture the flag unless it has some carrot of an outcome?  Yes, fun for the sake of fun is nice but it won't keep paying subscriptions very long.

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-  Mark Twain
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Reply #127 on: December 31, 2006, 10:27:39 AM

Lemme guess, Warhammer google alerts?
Nope.

Since Mythic doesn't have their developer posts in one place, many fans have no clue what developers are saying about the game. Community fansite admins have to be proactive in browsing places where developers are known to post. So I tend to gravitate where the developers post so I can bring that information to the people whom might not know where to find it. Just so happens, I've been a long time lurker who just registered in April. I miss a lot of the stuff, but not for long. :)

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Signe
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Reply #128 on: December 31, 2006, 11:16:49 AM

And he's in some sort of alliance, too!  That has to count for something, no?

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eldaec
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Reply #129 on: December 31, 2006, 11:27:32 AM

Well it can't be bad that players are having fun.  Not only "why did some people prefer the battlegrounds?" but "why did it bother people not in the battlegrounds?"

The reason it bothers people not in the battlegrounds, is that the idea of an RvR war is only workable, and only gets better if there are more people in it.

It's a form of prisoner's dilemma.

If, as a player, I go RvR it might be good if everyone else also goes RvR, or it might suck if people don't.

If I go for a group v group battleground I'm certain it'll be some fun, but not so much fun as RvR is if everyone is doing it.

Now, you could argue that you prefer group v group even when RvR is working properly, in which case the whole concept of RvR isn't your thing, and you should probably play Guild Wars more.

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tazelbain
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Reply #130 on: December 31, 2006, 02:33:45 PM

Now, you could argue that you prefer group v group even when RvR is working properly, in which case the whole concept of RvR isn't your thing, and you should probably play Guild Wars more.
I'd say that there is a large flaw in RvR if group v group isn't viable strategy.  Just as large of a flaw as the 90/10 thing.  I really doubt RvR was more fun with more people.  It's more to the fact that the zerg was the dominate strategy and if there were 20 people playing in the BG, that was 20 less people in your zerg or counter zerg.

That reminds of something Mark should really consider, regardless of the scale of your PvP everyone should try to acheive the skill depth of Guild Wars. It really makes the game more exciting when you meet up against oponents not knowing what they will be using. It makes target and skill selection the dominate factor rather than raw strength. Even large scale PvP would benifet from it because it make mindless zerging inefficent. Random skils against random oponents becomes very wasteful and a smaller more organized group can take advantage of it.


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Reply #131 on: December 31, 2006, 09:19:58 PM

Mark Jacobs loves to do that. Spread the love and use the community at his pleasure till he finds it useful, and then repudiate it as the love story is over and there isn't anymore anything he can use to his advantage.

Hello there. Someone may remember this:
Quote
Folks,

As of this morning I signed off participating at SND (formerly Lum’s site). In my post I also indicated because of personal issues that I feel the man who is running the site has with some Mythic personnel (Scott, Sanya and myself) that the site would not be able to post objective (neutral) criticism or praise regarding Mythic or DAoC. I stated that I was going to ask that Mythic personnel would no longer cooperate with any SND writer nor were we going to post there any longer. Just to make one issue clear before I get to the real reason for this post, I want to see that I could care less what happens to SND. I have never asked Scott to shut it down, take away assets, whatever. Whatever fate has in store for SND it will have earned it on its own. But who knows, maybe I did do something when I was sitting atop of the grassy knoll, dressed in black after my return from Area 51. happy

So, the real reason for this post is a thank you. It’s a thank you to all the folks at the former “Lum The Mad” site who made it possible. For many months LtM was my first stop in my morning “check all the new sites” review. While they weren’t always right and while they weren’t always fair, the site was a valuable and precious resource to the MMORPG community of developers and players. It was where some cool stories would be broken first, where developers and players of multiple communities could exchange ideas, stories and occasional rotten fruit. It was a place where I felt comfortable posting and talking about things in general as long as doing so violate my rule of not slamming other developers. It was part of my daily routine and I loved it and I miss it already. It was thanks to that site that we were able to find a man who became a very important part of Mythic at a very critical time in the development of DAoC. Without that site we wouldn’t have been fortunate enough to discover that Lum (Scott) was also a talented programmer as well as a writer.

Thus, I want to thank Scott for creating the site and making it what it would become. I want to thank some of the talented writers there (Mys, Arcadian, Tick and others) who helped keep the site vibrant and fun. I also want to thank the community there, those who liked us and those who disliked us as well. I loved being a part of it and I will miss it greatly. For those there who supported us I thank you for your efforts and your support and we will not let you down. You haven’t yet seen the best of Mythic nor of DAoC, things are only going to get better. For those there who criticized us, flamed us or worse, I also extend my thanks. All of that was part of what made LtM what it was for me and for the industry.

I would have posted this there but since I said I wouldn’t be back, I could not do so. However, since I know that many people here are also readers of SND and that some of the writers get their information from these boards, I figured it wouldn’t take long before this message gets out to SND and to the community there.

Mark

P.S. Just in case anyone here at the VN feels slighted at this letter and thanking LtM and that community, don’t. I’ve thanked the VN folks and the community here a number of times and will continue to do so in the future.
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Reply #132 on: December 31, 2006, 09:55:49 PM

I'd say that there is a large flaw in RvR if group v group isn't viable strategy.  Just as large of a flaw as the 90/10 thing.  I really doubt RvR was more fun with more people.  It's more to the fact that the zerg was the dominate strategy and if there were 20 people playing in the BG, that was 20 less people in your zerg or counter zerg.

I like large battles with many participants, even if it means putting up with people on your team that don't play as well as you'd like. I didn't play DAOC RvR, largely because I came to the game late and couldn't stomach the level grind. Grindy games are bad enough without needing groups in a period where there are very few lower level characters. I did suffer the excruciating grind in Lineage and enjoyed the castle sieges there. In the occasional period where there was a moderately stable version of the Shadowbane client, large scale conflict was entertaining.

Guild Wars actually seemed very rock/paper/scissors to me. You needed to rebuild your skills and team composition based on what the most common opposition 'builds' were. In that regard, it was more similar to M:TG than it was to other MMORPGs.

Quote from: Sun Tzu
8. It is the rule in war, if our forces are ten
    to the enemy's one, to surround him; if five to one,
    to attack him; if twice as numerous, to divide our army
    into two.

 9. If equally matched, we can offer battle;
    if slightly inferior in numbers, we can avoid the enemy;
    if quite unequal in every way, we can flee from him.

10. Hence, though an obstinate fight may be made
    by a small force, in the end it must be captured
    by the larger force.

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tazelbain
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Reply #133 on: January 01, 2007, 12:07:46 AM

In DAoC, I was in the Albion zerg it was madding. It was like being in a guild with entire vault network. In SB, I was in a mid-sized guild.  We could win often heads up, but inevitably the zerg would be called in.  Any allies we tried to make with would inevitable turn on us when faced with the zerg. So I am prejudged when someone says "large battles."

Ya, I am not a big fan of gimmick builds. It would be very interesting to see how gimmicks faired in 100v100.  Gimmicks rely on the odds that your opponent won't have the counter loaded. But in 100v100, the odds are someone will have it and look you up.  But my day dreams of armies maneuvering their groups to create favorable matchups are probably naive.

EDIT: Sun Tzu would nuke your ass from orbit if he could.  I doubt he would make a very fun game.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2007, 01:18:39 AM by tazelbain »

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Arthur_Parker
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Reply #134 on: January 01, 2007, 05:14:30 AM

Mark Jacobs loves to do that. Spread the love and use the community at his pleasure till he finds it useful, and then repudiate it as the love story is over and there isn't anymore anything he can use to his advantage.

Eldin went postal on Mythic, that's what caused that quote.  The only love story I remember involved two males, missing money and a trip to Europe.
Ironwood
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Reply #135 on: January 01, 2007, 06:23:23 AM

Indeed.  But you must remember that EVERYONE involved in that little tea-party got covered in shit.  There was more than enough clownshoes to go around.  Mark shouldn't have been involved AT ALL.

I am still of the opinion that Developers Should Not Be Posting in regards to games in which they are currently involved.  Can Raph come over and get pelters due to HAM ?  Sure.  Can Mark come over and tell us how cool WAR is gonna be ?  Not so much.

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
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Reply #136 on: January 01, 2007, 10:25:22 AM

The point is that Mark Jacobs exploited the lumthemad/SDN site to hype his game and be welcome like a king. That site had a MAJOR importance in the perception of DAoC before launch and its success. I remember that *from Italy*, when I didn't have any clue about the english community and barely played just Ultima in the evening, DAoC was hyped often with links from ltm. It was all: look these guys are attendible, they know a lot of these games and they are saying that DAoC is going to be very good.

Mythic came out of NOWHERE and it absolutely needed a way to be recognized and a way to evangelize the community. And these flowering communities of cynical, passionate players started to have a very important role, because it was here that you could get the unbiased commentary. DAoC was hyped as the best thing ever. DAoC's devs posted on the forums giving the illusion that they actually cared about the community, that everything was going to change, that they would have taught SOE a lesson. It's the exact same thing that happens in politics when they want you to vote for something else. Life will change! All empty promises.

DAoC was the forthcoming of god. And ltm/SND his herald.

That's a proven truth. Then there were a few sporadic voices. They told that DAoC wasn't all good, that it also has some dark spots, that it wasn't all perfect and that Mythic's was trying to just control and pilot the community for their only interest. Those players were banned and from there started a whole lot of drama. And when things weren't so joyful and useful for Mythic and Mark Jacobs to exploit, he gave the famous "order" to all his devs to come back home and leave SND behind because it was clear that the story was going to change. That the control wasn't anymore as easy. With the hope that without "red names" left and with its legitimation revoked that community would quickly die and cause no harm. Mythic used the community to earn legitimation, then used their new power to delegitimate the same community that gave them that power.

Mark Jacobs exploited it for his use. And when it was depleted and the community claimed back its dignity, it was abandoned. Mythic's involvement with the community has been a lie and a joke for a very long time.

He's here once again in the hope to trick you through the exact same pattern. He'll use you at his advantage till you lay down a red carpet at his feet and offer him free advertisements. Then it will fuck you off spectacularly at the right time. In the case he cannot control and pilot you anymore.

-HRose / Abalieno
cesspit.net
Sairon
Terracotta Army
Posts: 866


Reply #137 on: January 01, 2007, 11:00:51 AM

I think that's pretty much to expected from a company, I've seen shittier things done in order to keep a good profile with the public.

If a discussion would commence in which Mark Jacobs participated and showed a will to in fact take suggestions from this community in to account, I can only see as something mutually beneficial. A lot of us are MMO veterans with a hobbyist intrest in game design, what is there to loose?
Modern Angel
Terracotta Army
Posts: 3553


Reply #138 on: January 01, 2007, 11:06:10 AM

Oh for fuck's sake. NEWS FLASH: COMPANY SELLS SOMETHING, PEOPLE BUY IT!

It's not incumbent upon him to tell us he's bullshitting but on the consumer to figure out what's hype and what's not. I remember that whole debacle and didn't bat an eye. If he wants to come here and use these forums as a gigantic billboard with 90% bullshit and 10% facts, more power to him; I'll sort out which stuff is fact and make my own conclusions. Seriously... taking advantage of the MMOG community for his nefarious ends. Horseshit. Caveat emptor.
damijin
Terracotta Army
Posts: 448


WWW
Reply #139 on: January 01, 2007, 11:27:57 AM

I'm gonna side with HRose. Not because I believe or know first hand any of the shit he's talking about, but because Mark told me to:

Quote
go crawl back under the rock you and your kind have come from.

And I thought that was kind of rude, considering I've loved Mythic since Dragon's Gate and Darkness Falls back in the dizzay. :(
edit: but to be fair, I was trolling a forum and advocating gold farming at the time~
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