Vanguard Beta

[Nonentity]

I find the WoW/VG threads on the FoH forums the most uninteresting of them, actually.

I like watching the aged diku disciples tear apart games and mechanics in other threads, while the other half of the populace builds them back up.

It's like interweb tennis.

[sam, an eggplant]

FoH forums aren't really the uberguild chatspot of choice these days, the cool kids all hang out at the elitistjerks guild forums now. That's what I'm told anyway, I haven't played WoW since 8/05 but I occasionally check in on forums and such.

[Falconeer]

IGN/Fileplanet is about to start a half-open (subscribers only) betatest.

Given the enormity, the client is already available for download. What strikes me is the size: 6.6 gigabytes.

WTF? What happened to the remaining 10 gigs?
Wonder what got cut out of it...

[geldonyetich]

Checking "I Agree to share this information with Sigil Games Online and Sony Online Entertainment for future marketing opportunities relating to Vanguard: Saga of Heroes." required.  Oh well, more work for Mailwasher.

[sam, an eggplant]

High-res textures, maybe?

[Strazos]

I have friends who are really looking forward to this thing. One guy even did a full reserve on a copy tonight. I don't know what to do, and I need help. I don't want to see them poisoned by another fucking Diku piece of shit.

[stray]

High-res textures, maybe?

Maybe. DDO's normal download version doesn't include high res textures. If you want them, it's optional -- but it definitely doesn't amount to a 20 gig difference. Or even a 5 gig difference.

Then again, it's a dungeon centric world. I'd still be surprised though if that makes that big of a difference.

[Venkman]

I can't imagine it's the whole world. Maybe there's a level cap, and therefore restricted access from X amount of the game. That plus all associated high res textures, objects, sounds, whatever optimization they've achieved and whatever other content is specific to those places could maybe equal another 16gb in size. Maybe?

[Yegolev]

I have friends who are really looking forward to this thing. One guy even did a full reserve on a copy tonight. I don't know what to do, and I need help. I don't want to see them poisoned by another fucking Diku piece of shit.

Some people have bad taste in women, some in MOGs.  These people are not the ones that learn lessons easily.

[Falconeer]

A stripped down final beta phase (Are we still a couple of month from release? Gamestop/EBGames says 1 month), with only a portion of the world, or with a level cap or even worst low res texture it's not even worth the definition of "free trial". King Clusterfuck incoming? I'll be damned...

[Merusk]

A stripped down final beta phase (Are we still a couple of month from release? Gamestop/EBGames says 1 month), with only a portion of the world, or with a level cap or even worst low res texture it's not even worth the definition of "free trial". King Clusterfuck incoming? I'll be damned...

That was my thought. They know that nobody will hit the upper-levels on these trial accounts, so why include the zones, textures, .mp3s and all other files related to them?  Save yourself some bandwith (a LOT of bandwith if you're going from 22->6gb) and pass around a reduced file-size.

As to a release date, there hasn't been anything official.  The EB/GS date is pulled from someone's ass, per their usual M.O. for any announced-but-no-street-date game.

[Simond]

I don't know what to do, and I need help.

Point and laugh.

Edit: Get the popcorn ready

[sam, an eggplant]

Looking forward to it. I'd like to think of myself as the kind of open minded enlightened dude who'd be happy to see Vanguard succeed, because great games are good for everybody, but, well, I'm not. I'm bitter over EQ and addicted to my schadenfreude. I get a little tingle in my nipples every time someone badtalks Vanguard. I am a small, small, man.

[Signe]

The next bit of beta is open and you can get it from Fileplanet.

[geldonyetich]

It's not actually open yet, Fileplanet just offers the capacity to download it ahead of time to their subscribers.  At a 6.6 Gb download, that might not be a bad idea.

Too bad they wipe my hitpoints every time I let my Fileplanet subscription lapse.  Otherwise, I could afford some free softporn.

[Simond]

Another interview, this one all-but-spelling out the beta & launch dates:

[Ten Ton Hammer]: Many of us have seen the rumor recently leaked on the official Vanguard forums which suggests that open beta is expected to begin January 4, 2007. Of course, “expected” doesn’t mean for certain, but can you say with certainty that open beta will begin some time in early January?

[Nick Parkinson]: Beta 5, or “open” beta, will be starting in early January.


[TTH]: Some Vanguard fans consider moving into open beta so soon after beginning beta 4 (which started in mid-December) as rushing things. We know that much of the content on Kojan was just added and has had limited testing. What prompted this move to open beta so soon after the beginning of beta 4? Does Sigil simply feel the game is ready for open beta, or are there other motivating factors?

[NP]: It’s just the right time for beta 5 to start. I think our unusually long prior phases probably threw some folks off and they (understandably) assumed the final two phases would be equally long. Fortunately, we’re at the point where they don’t need to be now and we feel the month or so that beta 4 will have lasted when we move on to beta 5 will be sufficient.


[TTH]: An open beta in early January would likely put Vanguard on target to launch shortly after Blizzard’s first World of Warcraft expansion, The Burning Crusade, which will launch January 16. Is it Sigil’s intent to go head to head with the WoW expansion?

[NP]: There are a lot of gamers out there. We think that as long as the games are good, both titles can do just fine.

Don't forget, the  goes away with beta 5. 

[Strazos]

I'm not in the beta, so I am not held down by NDA. But I know someone in the beta, and have seen the character creator, as well as some gameplay. All I can say is...

WTF are these people thinking? I'm not sure who is more delusional - the devs who think the same old shit is going to meet with success, who the players who've already played this style of garbage before, and are STILL hyped about this turd. Just gonna ramble off some stuff:

- Player models are ugly. Yes, you have a lot of sliders to play with. I didn't see a "fucking ugly graphic" slider to raise or lower.

- Regurgitated gameplay. Instead of starting on rats and bats, at least in one area you start out on slime. Still plays like auto-attack + ability bullshit. How novel. Also, looks like they just put the abilities from EQ classes in a hat and shuffled them up, then drew them and assigned them a class. Necromancer is back, and is yet again a pet class. Blood Mage is the class with the drains and dots. And bards yet again sing different things to give AE effects. Oh, but now instead of twisting by hand, you "build a song," which is really just automating the singing of different songs from EQ. It's not cute, Sigil. It's a sign of bad things to come when new players automatically assume or ask if certain classes, like Shaman, are going to have good slows. Or that bards have travel songs. And they wear heavier armor. Way to be different. Morons.

- Oooo, you get a horse early in the game for travel. And you can put barding on it, and it kind of levels up. Big deal - how does it affect gameplay? "Awesome, you get a horse (or songs) for fast travel early in the game!" Yeah, too bad travel is going to Suck Fucking Ass in this game, due to both an almost complete lack of magical travel, and the sheer size of the world. +30-40% move rate is nice, until you realize that the world is 300%+ larger than EQ or something.

- OOO, the texture for that wall in the solo dungeon looks nice. The clouds are dynamic and shit. Cool stuff, I wonder how they had time to design that kind of extra stuff...

I'm going to laugh all the way to the fucking bank when this thing flops with everyone except for people with a poopsock permanently stitched to their anus.

[Merusk]

How does one empty a permanently attached poopsock?  Doesn't it defeat the purpose? Wouldn't a cork achieve the same end and be less painful?


The horse thing does sound pretty nifty, however.  It's not a gameplay-enhancing element, but a worldly element.  The same is true of the housing and 'inn' features they've been crowing about.   Their idea seems to have become "Combine EQ combat AND SWG/ UO world features" somewhere along the line.   They're promising to be the first MMO since UO to provide boats, afterall.

That said, the catass time to get to the fun/ neato parts still kill the game in the womb.

[Morat20]

Oh good. Boats. That's a triple-A game there. Think of all the fun that could be had with boats.

Umm.....

No, seriously, boats?

I can understand housing. Crafting. Even this weird diplomacy thing. But what's the big deal with the fucking boats, other than "It's like a horse, but made of wood and travels on water"? It's nice, but I think I'd prefer to forego boats in favor of having the suck removed.

[Venkman]

If a Horse is a worldy element, then so are SoW boots and Selos.

Nah. Horses are to get the job, as defined by the game mechanic, done faster.

Now, if these were pack horses where you could put stuff you couldn't carry on your person, or war horses you could armor up and have fight for you, then we're talking about some unique thinking. Yes those have appeared in games before. No they haven't been experienced by the vast majority of gamers.

Boats on the other hand, those are cool. At least in theory. If they do it right, it's a new way of playing the same game. And you know? That's sometimes just fine for this genre, in a WoW flying mount, or SWG: JTL sorta way.

[Merusk]

Oh good. Boats. That's a triple-A game there. Think of all the fun that could be had with boats.

Umm.....

No, seriously, boats?

I can understand housing. Crafting. Even this weird diplomacy thing. But what's the big deal with the fucking boats, other than "It's like a horse, but made of wood and travels on water"? It's nice, but I think I'd prefer to forego boats in favor of having the suck removed.

Every time I read someone bringing up UO to reminisce about, this will go through my head and I will giggle madly.  Thanks

If a Horse is a worldy element, then so are SoW boots and Selos.

Nah. Horses are to get the job, as defined by the game mechanic, done faster.

Straight sow/ selos is more game-y than worldly, simply because it's more artificial.  You also don't have to include anything beyond the speed increase and MAYBE some pretty flashing lights.  Horses imply a lot more thought that "hey we need some way to decrease travel time," and add another layer of realism to things, in addition to making you a bit more attached to your character.

Now, if these were pack horses where you could put stuff you couldn't carry on your person, or war horses you could armor up and have fight for you, then we're talking about some unique thinking. Yes those have appeared in games before. No they haven't been experienced by the vast majority of gamers.

There was, at one time, a rumor about horse-mounted fighting but I think it was scrapped. They DO have caravans, which I suppose implies pack-horses. I wonder if you can have a burro that stands around while you hack a_snake_0239 to death. Probably not, ah well.

Boats on the other hand, those are cool. At least in theory. If they do it right, it's a new way of playing the same game. And you know? That's sometimes just fine for this genre, in a WoW flying mount, or SWG: JTL sorta way.

Yep. Nifty toys are always fun. Like houses. I may favor gamey environments, but I like me some nifty toys to play with from time to time, too.  They don't even have to enhance my grinding efficiency.  :-D

[stray]

No, seriously, boats?

Boats in a Vanguard world....Yeah, probably not cool. Boats in a UO 2.0 world, where I can rape and pillage innocent spice traders. Yeah, that's cool.

[EDIT]

This post was for Merusk.

[Morat20]

Don't get me wrong -- I'm all for options. River and ocean travel on my own boat? Great. Sign me up. Sounds fun. However, this needs to be in the context of an actual fun game.

If the game's for shit, boats are a stupid thing to be wasting time on, unless they are somehow integral to the gameplay, which is more my complaint. Vanguard has -- as best I  can tell -- a lot of problems, and it's launch seems destined to be a replay of SWG. Boats are really not an important issue right now. I suspect there are few damn people out there who are going to say "This game isn't all that great, and it's buggy, and it runs like shit -- but fuck, it's got boats. Sign me up!".

Boats are not the new Jedi. They're boats. They don't even have the slightly guilty allure of player housing.

[stray]

As much as I'd like to rag on Vanguard, I don't think this will be anywhere near the clusterfuck that SWG was. For one, it's a diku. From Brad McQuaid of all people. There's not much to screw up there. There aren't as many expectations from a fantasy setting like this as there was with SWG either.

[Morat20]

As much as I'd like to rag on Vanguard, I don't think this will be anywhere near the clusterfuck that SWG was. For one, it's a diku. From Brad McQuaid of all people. There's not much to screw up there. There aren't as many expectations from a fantasy setting like this as there was with SWG either.

To my mind? It'll be worse.

Expectations at least get you eyeballs. All that new "WoW" market is going to take a fucking look at that, see a chugging graphics engine that's throwing (and they will NOT fucking upgrade to a new PC just to run Vanguard), see gameplay that's not as "grindy" as the hard-core masochists want, but that's a fuck more grindy than the casuals like, and see a game released several months too early and with all the flaws to show for it.

The casuals will go back to WoW, because it's polished, runs on their PC's and is fun. The MMORPG vets will release it's EQ2 meets SWG with an extra helping of dick-grinder, and decide they're too old for that shit and go back to whatever game they were getting bored with. The Brad vanbois will buy 30 boxes a piece, bitching about how Brad sold out the hardcore vision in which the game ships with a giant spiked dildo to shove up your ass while playing and made it too much like "WoW" in an attempt to attract 10 year olds while simultaneously praising the 5 FPS they get in the middle of nowhere as a brilliant cockblock designed to make sure ONLY people running 6k rigs who are ALSO hardcore old-style gamers will play -- thus keeping out the WoWbois.

In short, Vanguard seems designed to appeal to the intersection of the following groups:

1) People with top-of-the-line machines.
2) People who like shoving their dick in a grinder.
3) People who want EQ1, only with more suffering.
4) People who hate people who like WoW.
5) People who are willing to play it for the game it MIGHT be, two years down the road, once The Vision is complete.

So yeah, SWG meets EQ meets Lineage meets PC snobs. I think "clusterfuck".

And yes -- I'm aware that Vanguard isn't quite the grind-fest it originally appeared to be. I just think the hard-core Vanbois really WANT a dick-grinder, and that everyone else (vets and newbie "WoW is my first MMORPG!") isn't going to tolerate the "Same old shit". I think Vanguard is going to demonstrate that one thing Blizzard has really done to the market is make people intolerante of shitty releases.

[Venkman]

VG does not have the expectations SWG had, simply because VG is just a game IP appealing to just MMORPG players. SWG cast a net based on the license that covers, well, just about everyone.

VG may or not tank publicly and royally. But it'll do so base solely on its relevance as a game.

Straight sow/ selos is more game-y than worldly, simply because it's more artificial.  You also don't have to include anything beyond the speed increase and MAYBE some pretty flashing lights.  Horses imply a lot more thought that "hey we need some way to decrease travel time," and add another layer of realism to things, in addition to making you a bit more attached to your character.

Unless the Horse actually performs like a horse, like, it needs to be fed, groomed and so on, then it's simply replacing the gleamies of Selos with a 3D object. Particularly if everyone can have one quickly. That's my only beef. I like spells (I actually loved the EQ1 Bard song twisting. I've never seen the like, except maybe SB Shadow Mage). I like horses. I just want them to mean something more than just a spell rendered differently. Otherwise, it's a waste.

And careful with that "realism" thing. VG has spells too :)

[stray]

What exactly is bard song twisting (never played EQ heh...except a short trial)? The only bards I've like so far are Shadowbane Bards....Were they anything like that?

[Nonentity]

What exactly is bard song twisting (never played EQ heh...except a short trial)? The only bards I've like so far are Shadowbane Bards....Were they anything like that?

When you cast a song as a Bard in EQ, it would lag for a second, and then everyone in your party would get an extremely short duration buff, think 15-20 seconds. As soon as that buff hits, you would stop playing that song and start casting another one (casting songs? heh), until that one hit, and then start casting a third one. If you were fast, you could keep a couple songs 'twisted' together at once like that.

[stray]

Same as SB then. Think they had 30 sec timers though. You could pretty much run all of them -- especially with a macro. ;)

My SB bard shunned group support though. That was my solo pk'er. Awesome kiter with bows. Super speed, +haste, +damage, + regen, etc..

[CaptainNapkin]

I have to just lol at some of the performance comments, I just don't get it, for this and other games also. Obviously there's layers of sarcasm and exaggeration laced in those comments, but I'm not sure I could actually spend 6 grand on a box (without a monitor, which you don't need to upgrade until they die). Hell, if you want to play high end console games you have shell out 400 or 600 bucks, and this is PC land where we don't get off that easy. But seriously, where does it come from? My PCs here are no where near uber by today's standards and everything's running perfectly  All the other comments (many of which seem based on "my buddy's girlfriend's brother's sister who's in beta said" type of stuff) aside, if you don't expect to shell out a 1000-1500 beans every 2 or 3 years to upgrade your PC, then methinks PC gaming shouldn't be your hobby of choice. Then, by all means, stick with WoW that will run at 100fps on your 64meg card... it also happens to be a really fun game for a good amount of time.

[Venkman]

Same as SB then. Think they had 30 sec timers though. You could pretty much run all of them -- especially with a macro. ;)

My SB bard shunned group support though. That was my solo pk'er. Awesome kiter with bows. Super speed, +haste, +damage, + regen, etc..

Yes. I didn't think twisting was in ANY other game until I played the SB Shadow Mage. I was able to "twist" quite a number of buffs in SB. In EQ1, the usual cap was 2 for the lazy, 3 for the involved, 4 if you did nothing but twist songs, and on rare occasion, 5 if you were using some songs with much longer durations. I usually hovered in the 3 to 4 range depending on if I was also meleeing (in the 20s-30s range). There was also a school of thought that said having 5 buffs where only 3 were up at any given time was better all around than just having those 3, but I didn't really side with those.

Song twisting was apparently an accident, not intended by design. It's a shame though. I really wish other games integrated something like it. It really allowed players to define themselves as more than the sum of their gear and time-in. But at least the genre has integrated other ways of self uniqueness over time.

[Kageru]

Same as SB then. Think they had 30 sec timers though. You could pretty much run all of them -- especially with a macro. ;)

That's a major part of the difference, the serious bards did not macro their songs. This is partly because they had quite a few songs but mostly because EQ's macro capability was pretty basic / restricted. So you had a person spending potentially hours at a time keeping a simple rhythm on their keyboard. Visiting the bard class forums, and watching all the discussions on RSI prevention, made you realise how insane it all was. During the game it also meant that bards were mostly silent in chat, or had the very distinctive "ok12" as parts of their beat got into their short chat responses.

I tried it for a while, but it was too much work... though the things a good bard could do were insane / unbalanced.

From my memory the mechanics are that a time period was 6 seconds, bard songs were three seconds to cast and most songs would last for 6 seconds then fade over the next 12, which gave you the chance to trigger two more songs while the first was fading.

As for Vanguard, meh. Though I do look forward to the NDA dropping so it can be dissected in the search for any originality.

[stray]

The SB bard songs were instacast, if I recall...Which adds another layer of convenience compared to EQ, I guess.

Really great class, only topped by SB Mage Assassins. I've been wanting to see those two pop up in another game somewhere for awhile now.

[Threash]

This thread should now be about SB bards, best class evah.  Running in at full speed and smacking the shit out of someone with my blade master bard and then being able to run off before most of his group even knew what hit him was so much fun.

[stray]

I had a great bard name: Elvis the Pelvis. Irekei with the big chop sideburns