Raph is no longer taunting us (Metaplace)

[Yegolev]

Didn't see any of you at the chat. Oh well, you missed your first chance to actually use MP. ;)

Sorry, work and whatnot.  Excuses, etc.  Do you remember my particular question that I asked in our AGC interview?  (I was the goofy guy with the camera)  I'm on board and I'm ready for what you have going on, but I'm going to be frank here and say that I'll be all over this like white on rice once I can get my hands onto it... BUT until then, I can't guarantee anything other than annoying Facebook messages for CuppyCake, what with trying to teach myself C# and Real Life.

[naum]

Chat Transcript



More Screenshots

[Endie]

I don't know if it's the Call of Duty 3-type semi-French look of the buildings top-right, or the close-packed collection of cutesie, newbie-looking avatars, but on looking at that picture I was filled with a genuine urge to hoist a couple of hand grenades into that scene.

It's nothing against the tech (which I am really rooting for) or even the implementation we're seeing there.  I guess I've just been playing games for too long.

[Mrbloodworth]

That font, and UI needs work. Badly. Looks like programmer art. speech bubbles also... If its in flash, are they not vector? Whats with the rasterization.

[Obo]

Well I had a little problem with the text bar getting cut off at the bottom of the window in Opera, but I said as much in the chat at the start. I zoomed in with Opera so I could see it, but that meant I could also see the hidden avatar scene behind the chat window too before it was revealed (but the loading assets at the start was a bit of a give away too :)).

Thought the chat interface was a bit bare bones (and a bit too grey), but I suppose that all depends on how the module is put together by the creator. That was done in 6 hours with the help of a tester if I remember?

The youtube bit didn't fully work for me (although at first I though John was going to be triggering a global audio stream?). I got up three search results, but when I picked one to play all I got was a black box. I didn't leave it up too long, so it was either slow connecting to YouTube (like the popup here sometimes), or there was a problem playing it in Opera. Tried it a second time but I didn't even get the black box at all that time after selecting a video (or maybe you are filtering Chanology videos  )

The avatar bit was good, although when everyone started moving it got a little bit jumpy. And with so many avatars is a small place it was sometimes hard to find a place to actually walk to due to the pathfinding/collision (could have gotten boxed in). I also noticed it was acting a bit weird when I got close to the edges, as I was pushed about a bit in seemingly the wrong direction. But that could have just been due to the lag.
Again depending on how the module was made, but it was a bit hard at times to read the names of the avatars when all bunched up.

But overall it was good. And an unmoderated dev chat with over 100 people that wasn't chaos! Although I did manage to get in my little /b/ comment at the end there  .

[Ironwood]

That looks like City 17.

[bhodi]

They should rename their tools suite to G.E.C.K.

[Raph]

That font, and UI needs work. Badly. Looks like programmer art. speech bubbles also... If its in flash, are they not vector? Whats with the rasterization.

The font is just Lucida. You can use HTML to format text in the chat boxes and stuff, so that is up to you -- but that support isn't available until next week. :)

The UI there is just transparent rectangles.

No, the chat bubbles are not vector; any builder can put in any bitmap they want and use it for any purpose -- background, UI element, etc. The bubble spout definitely needs a better image or something -- very pixelly. :) Looks to me like a small bitmap was stretched to fit, rather than making art of the right size (you can do arbitrary scaling of the UI elements). (And bubbles and UI elements could probably benefit from vectorization, but in many cases, that does increase asset size and reduce quality, so it's very asset-dependent).

I don't know if it's the Call of Duty 3-type semi-French look of the buildings top-right, or the close-packed collection of cutesie, newbie-looking avatars, but on looking at that picture I was filled with a genuine urge to hoist a couple of hand grenades into that scene.

It's nothing against the tech (which I am really rooting for) or even the implementation we're seeing there.  I guess I've just been playing games for too long.

Or you hate the French? ;)

[Raph]

Well I had a little problem with the text bar getting cut off at the bottom of the window in Opera, but I said as much in the chat at the start. I zoomed in with Opera so I could see it, but that meant I could also see the hidden avatar scene behind the chat window too before it was revealed (but the loading assets at the start was a bit of a give away too :)).

Ah, that was you! :) We found the cut-off problem, and it was actually an HTML issue with the webpage, not with the client and Opera itself.

Thought the chat interface was a bit bare bones (and a bit too grey), but I suppose that all depends on how the module is put together by the creator. That was done in 6 hours with the help of a tester if I remember?

To get it working, yah. People keep fiddling with it to add stuff though. :) We originally used it for live support of alpha testers, which is why it is visually kind of blah. It took a long time before it got stuff like emotes, for example.

]quote]The youtube bit didn't fully work for me (although at first I though John was going to be triggering a global audio stream?). I got up three search results, but when I picked one to play all I got was a black box. I didn't leave it up too long, so it was either slow connecting to YouTube (like the popup here sometimes), or there was a problem playing it in Opera. Tried it a second time but I didn't even get the black box at all that time after selecting a video (or maybe you are filtering Chanology videos  )[/quote]

I've noticed some videos just refusing to load too... if you can tell me what you searched for and which you picked, we cna try to pin it down.

The avatar bit was good, although when everyone started moving it got a little bit jumpy.

Dude, 85 in one spot... that's jumpy in most anything. :) But we've got a lot of performance and bandwidth stuff to do yet.

But overall it was good. And an unmoderated dev chat with over 100 people that wasn't chaos! Although I did manage to get in my little /b/ comment at the end there  .

And THAT was you too. 

[Endie]

I don't know if it's the Call of Duty 3-type semi-French look of the buildings top-right, or the close-packed collection of cutesie, newbie-looking avatars, but on looking at that picture I was filled with a genuine urge to hoist a couple of hand grenades into that scene.

It's nothing against the tech (which I am really rooting for) or even the implementation we're seeing there.  I guess I've just been playing games for too long.

Or you hate the French? ;)

That'll teach 'em for using us as a distraction in the 15th century.

In my defence, though, I do like France.

[Mrbloodworth]

That font, and UI needs work. Badly. Looks like programmer art. speech bubbles also... If its in flash, are they not vector? Whats with the rasterization.

The font is just Lucida. You can use HTML to format text in the chat boxes and stuff, so that is up to you -- but that support isn't available until next week. :)

The UI there is just transparent rectangles.

No, the chat bubbles are not vector; any builder can put in any bitmap they want and use it for any purpose -- background, UI element, etc. The bubble spout definitely needs a better image or something -- very pixelly. :) Looks to me like a small bitmap was stretched to fit, rather than making art of the right size (you can do arbitrary scaling of the UI elements). (And bubbles and UI elements could probably benefit from vectorization, but in many cases, that does increase asset size and reduce quality, so it's very asset-dependent).

Thanks for the response, that was just my cold first impression feedback being an artiest.  (Bold line) You may want to look up what Vector objects are there Raph..... maybe it was just a bad worded sentence, but that line there would be incorrect. Candidates for use would vary thou, but the example above can all be vector, and should.

[Raph]

Thanks for the response, that was just my cold first impression feedback being an artiest.  (Bold line) You may want to look up what Vector objects are there Raph..... maybe it was just a bad worded sentence, but that line there would be incorrect. Candidates for use would vary thou, but the example above can all be vector, and should.

I know what vector art is. :) The avatars and the background would look worse in it, the UI would look better. The background especially, and the vector version would be huge. We tried. :)

We don't have vector support in for art uploads yet, but I can easily see it being added in the future. The trick is always being multiplatform and multiclient... can't ask clients to support every format under the sun...

[Obo]

if you can tell me what you searched for and which you picked, we cna try to pin it down

First one was the /video funny cat as suggested. Don't remember which funny cat video clicked on, got the blank window.
Second one was /video chanology, and I believe I picked this one http://youtube.com/watch?v=gaWBg_kQLNQ but got nothing.

Also, after messing about with zooming in opera, I reset the zoom but the chat window wasn't centred in the client window anymore.

Oh, and tell John to answer his emails .

[naum]

I know what vector art is. :) The avatars and the background would look worse in it, the UI would look better. The background especially, and the vector version would be huge. We tried. :)

We don't have vector support in for art uploads yet, but I can easily see it being added in the future. The trick is always being multiplatform and multiclient... can't ask clients to support every format under the sun...

Makes me question whether the whole Flash thing is a good idea… …I've seen few Flash implementations (other than cartoons or real simple games) that offer a rich enough UI without being all jittery…

[Mrbloodworth]

Thanks for the response, that was just my cold first impression feedback being an artiest.  (Bold line) You may want to look up what Vector objects are there Raph..... maybe it was just a bad worded sentence, but that line there would be incorrect. Candidates for use would vary thou, but the example above can all be vector, and should.

I know what vector art is. :) The avatars and the background would look worse in it, the UI would look better. The background especially, and the vector version would be huge. We tried. :)

We don't have vector support in for art uploads yet, but I can easily see it being added in the future. The trick is always being multiplatform and multiclient... can't ask clients to support every format under the sun...

I was only talking about the UI stuff, mainly the chat bubbles. (Thought i was clear, please excuse my moon language)

Anyway, we are on the same page. Just missed each other somewhere. *Shrug*

Anyway, no vector support? I thought this thing was built in flash..... ? There should be no incompatibility issues.....at all. Going only raster in such a client as a base support would be...well...wrong. Especially considering the delivery method.

I am assuming that your client has nothing to do anymore with the Flash authoring environment?

[tazelbain]

Tweens with a backpack market is bigger than I thought.

[Raph]

First one was the /video funny cat as suggested. Don't remember which funny cat video clicked on, got the blank window.
Second one was /video chanology, and I believe I picked this one http://youtube.com/watch?v=gaWBg_kQLNQ but got nothing.

I just tried all four chanology results and they all worked for me... Hurm.

Also, after messing about with zooming in opera, I reset the zoom but the chat window wasn't centred in the client window anymore.

Yah, the whole zooming thing needs a general fix.

Oh, and tell John to answer his emails .

Can you give me a bit more hints as to what you are referencing? ;)

Makes me question whether the whole Flash thing is a good idea… …I've seen few Flash implementations (other than cartoons or real simple games) that offer a rich enough UI without being all jittery…

Flash is a good idea. :) At least, for A client. There's no doubts it has limitations, but there's also a gigantic pile of benefits.

BTW, read this: http://blog.ogoglio.com/2008/01/the-java-experi.html

I was only talking about the UI stuff, mainly the chat bubbles. (Thought i was clear, please excuse my moon language)

Anyway, we are on the same page. Just missed each other somewhere. *Shrug*

Anyway, no vector support? I thought this thing was built in flash..... ? There should be no incompatibility issues.....at all. Going only raster in such a client as a base support would be...well...wrong. Especially considering the delivery method.

I am assuming that your client has nothing to do anymore with the Flash authoring environment?

Vector support is indeed built into Flash, and one of its key strengths, of course.

Metaplace is not "yet another Flash MMO." Metaplace is a multiclient, multiplatform, in a browser, standalone on a PC, on an iPhone, virtual worlds system. Because of that, we started with bitmaps of various formats, not vector graphics formats. (Actually, technically, we started with text). And yes, we have clients for other platforms than browsers, we just don't have any we're willing to release. :P

I don't doubt we'll add vector support at some point.

[stray]

Sorry if this has been asked, but is metaplace just a codename? Is this a virtual world that's the supposed to have the appeal of a social networking site, and not a game?

[naum]

Flash is a good idea. :) At least, for A client. There's no doubts it has limitations, but there's also a gigantic pile of benefits.

BTW, read this: http://blog.ogoglio.com/2008/01/the-java-experi.html

…

I don't doubt we'll add vector support at some point.

Yes, the "Java experience" would be an even more below par choice…

Don't know if the browser is going to be decent enough experience whatever platform, especially layered with all the other interfacing library stuff… …wonder if (excluding IE) if canvas/SVG would offer up a much snappier interface… …perhaps a simple cross platform client would be more suitable, though I guess someone else could write one (maybe single platform-er)… …just plugging in network and game/DB API calls…

[Raph]

Oh -- to be clear, we don't expect Flash to be theclient platform on all devices or all platforms. Not at all. You can write a client in whatever you want.

Right now, in browsers, Flash seems to be the best choice. Once the OpenGL canvas is out there, that's another choice. And of course, Flash isn't standing still -- 3d transforms are in Flash 10, and Papervision is coming along too.

For standalone -- heck, today I wrote a little client that does text-only for MP, and it was 330 lines, plus the MD5 lib and the CURL lib. After that, it's all parsing tags and rendering. So you should be able to go to whatever platform you want.

Sorry if this has been asked, but is metaplace just a codename? Is this a virtual world that's the supposed to have the appeal of a social networking site, and not a game?

No, it's not a codename, and no it's not a game. It is the name of the network and the domain on which our portal is hosted. Metaplace is a virtual worlds platform that works the way the web does and based on open standards -- you can build MMOs in it, or single-player games in it, link them together, embed them on web pages, use web services in and out, rate and rank and search them, etc.

[naum]

Right now, in browsers, Flash seems to be the best choice. Once the OpenGL canvas is out there, that's another choice. And of course, Flash isn't standing still -- 3d transforms are in Flash 10, and Papervision is coming along too.

For standalone -- heck, today I wrote a little client that does text-only for MP, and it was 330 lines, plus the MD5 lib and the CURL lib. After that, it's all parsing tags and rendering. So you should be able to go to whatever platform you want.

1. On Flash, one word - Adobe. I hope I'm wrong, but I see M$-ification happening with Adobe now…

2. Here is where I plead for a alpha/beta invite — I'd love to tinker with creating a canvas client, something browser + iPhone suitable (no Flash on iPhone, though it does video and javascript and then some WebKit stuff that is Mobile Safari only), given that iPhone can do canvas (+ all the Ajax-y JS) and there's going to be 10 million+ iPhones soon (I think already it like 5+ million, and everyday I see somebody else, even the most grumpy of Apple loathers getting one) along with all the iPod touches…

[Venkman]

As a platform for consideration, you could include both the iPhone and the iPod Touch. The latter supports almost all the same programs as the former (except those that require cellphone and bluetooth). And jailbreaking may not be a specific requirement for much longer, depending on the level of info released with the SDK they're said to be releasing later this month.

No idea how many Touch's have been sold. And while they projected 10mil for iPhone in cy 2007, they didn't hit that either. But it's still a growing platform, and even if you don't end up doing a multitouch MP experience for that, doing a multitouch MP experience at all provides learnings into what is coming regardless of who's bringing it.

[naum]

As a platform for consideration, you could include both the iPhone and the iPod Touch. The latter supports almost all the same programs as the former (except those that require cellphone and bluetooth). And jailbreaking may not be a specific requirement for much longer, depending on the level of info released with the SDK they're said to be releasing later this month.

No idea how many Touch's have been sold. And while they projected 10mil for iPhone in cy 2007, they didn't hit that either. But it's still a growing platform, and even if you don't end up doing a multitouch MP experience for that, doing a multitouch MP experience at all provides learnings into what is coming regardless of who's bringing it.

1. On pace for 10M by June, 2008, which is what was originally charted (a whole year, not 2007)… …unless I misconstrued Senior Jobs…

2. Yes, if I wasn't clear, I meant to include iPod Touch, which offers all the same capability as far as Mobile Safari goes

3. Even without jailbreaking / SDK (which, as stated, is supposed to be made public this month), given a decent net connection (even with Edge), is quite capable  of a rich UI - even drag and drop, 2 finger dragging v. 1 finger dragging, though for smallish screen size, I would just focus on finger tap UI…

4. Or joint browser / full client / mobile deal where you can update your (char | pieces | game state | etc.…) on the go…

5. Learned Cocoa and built some toy apps with XCode + Obj C, but single platform development nature did not interest me further. But a iPhone/iPod Touch SDK interests me greatly and if not a morass like the Palm SDK was, would be a joy to code…

[Venkman]

Good. I'll look forward to you building this then, because I wouldn't even know where to begin

One question about Metaplace that may have been answered: is it possible to make full-screen experiences? I'm pretty sure the answer is yes, but just wanted to be sure.

[Rasix]

One question about Metaplace that may have been answered: is it possible to make full-screen experiences? I'm pretty sure the answer is yes, but just wanted to be sure.

I'm pretty sure that would just depend on the client.  Someone makes a full screen client and you've got full screen Metaplace.

[Raph]

Yah, I wrote a full-screen client for standalone PC for example. The Flash client doesn't do fullscreen right now because Adobe decided that fullscreen needs to disallow key entry or something (?). But we can probably fake it.

And as far as an iPhone client, there's a few folks who want to tackle that... soon as the SDKs are out, I think. :) We're not likely to do it ourselves. Too many platforms, too little time... but we provide docs on how to write a client, and sample code even.

[Venkman]

I could learn this from following MP closer I'm sure, but there's just too much to keep up I've gotta play info-triage

From the MP demo a few days back, how much of what was shown then (I only saw screenshots and writeups) drive what players can do there. For example, can they use both bitmap (Webkinz) and 3D-object-based avatars (Cazmoo)? Can the camera be controlled? Can the game support both seamless/scrolling pov as (UO) well as per-screen zonebased (Club Penguin)?

I think the answer is "depends on how you write the client" I'm trying to figure out how far that goes though. Channeling Habitat here

[Raguel]

Raph:

I haven't really had to the time to do as much research on Metaplace as I'd like (I promise to be at the next chat tho.  )


It looks like some of the questions I had were already answered (e.g. support for single player games).

I do have a question that I didn't see asked/answered. My main interest is not so much towards making a complete, polished game, as it is to making (what I hope to be) interesting, novel systems that are fun and increase replayability (specifically for single player rpg games, but maybe there's a way to make it work for a mmorpg.) I'm wondering if that's a realistic expectation.

[Raph]

From the MP demo a few days back, how much of what was shown then (I only saw screenshots and writeups) drive what players can do there. For example, can they use both bitmap (Webkinz) and 3D-object-based avatars (Cazmoo)?

Right now, 2d only. 3d eventually. PlanetCazmo is 2d too I thought?

Can the camera be controlled?

If the worldbuilder lets you.

Can the game support both seamless/scrolling pov as (UO) well as per-screen zonebased (Club Penguin)?

Yep.

I think the answer is "depends on how you write the client" I'm trying to figure out how far that goes though. Channeling Habitat here

Actually, some of those are "how the builder builds the world."

I do have a question that I didn't see asked/answered. My main interest is not so much towards making a complete, polished game, as it is to making (what I hope to be) interesting, novel systems that are fun and increase replayability (specifically for single player rpg games, but maybe there's a way to make it work for a mmorpg.) I'm wondering if that's a realistic expectation.

It's more realistic that trying to make a whole game, IMHO. :) We've found most Metaplace builders are most successful when they are modding or extending rather than trying to create from scratch.

[Venkman]

Thanks Raph!

Cazmo is a 2D representation but the characters are 3D. Saved them a lot of time on assets

[Raguel]

I do have a question that I didn't see asked/answered. My main interest is not so much towards making a complete, polished game, as it is to making (what I hope to be) interesting, novel systems that are fun and increase replayability (specifically for single player rpg games, but maybe there's a way to make it work for a mmorpg.) I'm wondering if that's a realistic expectation.

It's more realistic that trying to make a whole game, IMHO. :) We've found most Metaplace builders are most successful when they are modding or extending rather than trying to create from scratch.

Cool. I think there's a way to use existing tools in different ways to create the "new" systems.

Can the camera be controlled?

If the worldbuilder lets you.

Could I give a player the controls to make a world in my world? 

[Endie]

Could I give a player the controls to make a world in my world? 

Metametaplace itt.

[Raph]

Have them go make a world, then give them an object that links to it from yours. It could be a doorway so you walk into it to go there, it could be an object that using it launches a separate experience, or it could happen right there in the same client. That's a big part of the point of doing it this way. ;)

[Raguel]

Have them go make a world, then give them an object that links to it from yours. It could be a doorway so you walk into it to go there, it could be an object that using it launches a separate experience, or it could happen right there in the same client. That's a big part of the point of doing it this way. ;)

 Good to hear, cuz my game is going to have a few mundane eggs.


As I said earlier, I'm more interested in working with systems as opposed to games. It occurs to me that, since I've never made a game before, I was approaching this the same way I'd do a lab experiment. I was planning on making instances and each one with a different system I'm playing with, tweaking as I get more feedback. Do you think that's a good idea or should I do one a time, in the same world?

edit: I was thinking of instances in terms of dungeons like current mmos, but I suppose, since in a way I'm starting from scratch, I can just make these instances menu options.

[sidereal]

Multiworld scavenger hunts ftw.

Is it possible to bridge inventory across places?  Does inventory exist?