Dungeon Running anyone?

[bhodikhan]

NCSoft strikes again. http://www.dungeonrunners.com

Been playing the beta on and off for the past couple of months. NDA has been lifted. It's been fun playing with my two kids. Not sure it's worth actual money. The member perks versus the non-member perks might turn off people. Crappy armor and no bank for non-subscribers. Maybe 5 dollars per character will hit some sort of sweet spot not covered by the other games. Given that GuildWars involves a ~$40 dollar purchase and is free thereafter  DungeonRunners might appeal as it's free to download AND free to play (albeit minus some perks).  I'm interested to see how the market views this offering.

It sort of feels like Diablo with some WOW shoved up it's arse. I think I've already had enough running and grinding. Every level looks like the last except you had to grind up the gold to buy more powerful spells. Sounds damn familiar.

Does every game feel the same to anyone else?

[schild]

Can you refer me? I've kinda been wanting to try my hand at this. :)

If you are a current Dungeon Runners player, you can find out more about this offer by simply logging into your PlayNC Account Management page and clicking the ACCOUNT DETAILS button of your Dungeon Runners game account. Then look for the REFER A FRIEND button located in the Account section. Clicking that button will provide you with all the information you need to begin inviting friends immediately.

Yar.

[bhodikhan]

PM me your email address. I'm sure that's gotta be what they're gonna need.

Never mind. I found your F13 address. duh.

Filled out the referral. We'll see how long it takes. They will send you three game registration codes. It's stupid as they will require you to make three NCSOFT accounts. I  just created one character with one number and used my COH account. I gave the other two numbers to friends when I got into the beta. Unless  you want to play a ranger, mage, and a fighter you might just want to give friends the other two (2) numbers.

[schild]

I have to make 3 different accounts? what?

Also, the boards are wrecked. Seems I can't login with the login/password I made up.

[bhodikhan]

They send you 3 game serial numbers.  You have to make an account for each number which gives you one char per account. Not the brightest idea. It's par for the course with the whole game. Good idea. Poor execution.

I can't wait to see what you think about it. 

[Cheddar]

Might as well toss me an invite (if you have one).  All I have is some  and Civ4 FOH mod. 

Well, after Tuesday I will have lots of free time.  We had an untimely death in the family so have to deal with that.  Death sucks.

[bhodikhan]

Not sure if I can do more than one per week (or two). I'll check. Maybe Schild can once he gets into the game. I'll try. Have Schild give you one of the three serial numbers he gets. Each one can create a game account for a single character.

[Velorath]

That website is pretty sparse for a game that's already being tested.  I can't even tell if I should be interested in the game or not 

[schild]

We were unable to verify your login. Either your login information was entered incorrectly, or the account system is currently unavailable. Please check the normal downtime schedule and announcements at www.dungeonrunners.com.

Doesn't look like I'm ever gonna get to play anyway since that shit won't accept my login information.

[WindupAtheist]

So NCSoft is targeting Runescape.  Wonder how successful they'll be with a client you need to download.

[Trippy]

I can't wait to see what you think about it. 

It's easy to predict what schild would've have said if he was able to play the game:

Does it have Diablo-style loot?

Yes = "OMIGOD THIS THING IS ROBOT JESUS"
No = "THIS GAME SUCKS, ANYBODY WHO PLAYS IS AN MMOTARD"

[NiX]

Schild is an open book with half a page.

[schild]

Nah, even with Diablo style loot it can still suck balls. Beyond Divinity? Am I still playing Titan Quest?

The only thing that was FANTASTICO was Fate. And I still romp through that on some saturdays.

[Azazel]

What happened to Titan Quest anyway? I thought it was the next big thing for you guys?

[schild]

It seemed fantastic but they recycled too many enemies and it never got frantic enough.

You don't really notice until until the end of chapter 4 in diablo (pandemonium?) or... all of Chapter 5. But what makes Diablo different from all of it's clones is the overwhelming number creatures the game throws at you. Sometimes, you feel like a god. Instead, in Titan Quest, they have you kill a titan and the walk up to him on Olympus has less creatures than the Den of Evil in Diablo 2.

So there's more to it than a kickass item system.

[Strazos]

I found Fate to be very dull. It had some interesting mechanics...but I just could not get into it for the life of me.

[El Gallo]

So, is this game fun or what?  I could use something to play until TBC.

[schild]

I'm too stupid to log into the game to answer that question. As in, I can't figure it out.

But I can help you with that part about waiting for an MMOG expansion.

Get a fucking DS.

[geldonyetich]

Diablo style loot (and even more Diablo-like similarities) gone massively multiplayer is not the essence of robot Jesus.  If it was, Ragnarok Online is ready to accept your unconditional devotion.

Personally, I'm under the impression that only when we've got a combination of a designer who has the insight to see past old conventions and pair them up with a development talent to make this vision a reality, only then do we make progress.  Unfortunately, talent is so spread across the industry that design with the vision insight is about 1 in 255, and a development talent capable of  a reasonable translation is also about 1 in 255.  Thus, the odds of the two meeting are approximately 1 in 65025, and this is about how often we have a good game.  (Feel free to take my total shot in the dark numbers literally if you want to prove your anal retentiveness.  I'll savor your not having the attention span to read the last sentence with churlish zeal.)

As for Dungeon Runners, well, look for yourself.  Looks like something you can already get in Dungeon Siege to me... maybe the interface is a bit cleaner.  You know what I'd add if I had designed it?  Combination party attacks and dynamic content generation.  Come on Mark, you can push the envelope more than Dungeon Siege.

[Modern Angel]

Tried it. Found it sucked ass. This was fairly early on but my hard drive is rapidly filling with  :nda:s that are worth a shit. Might be nicer now but I simply can't be bothered.

[schild]

Diablo style loot (and even more Diablo-like similarities) gone massively multiplayer is not the essence of robot Jesus. If it was, Ragnarok Online is ready to accept your unconditional devotion.

The subtleties of loot heavy game dynamics evades you. The difference between Diablo and Ragnorak Online - even if you strip away everything EXCEPT the loot system is gargantuan. Don't say things like that, it makes you look like you only read about games instead of playing them. Though, given how much you write, that might be true.

Personally, I'm under the impression that only when we've got a combination of a designer who has the insight to see past old conventions and pair them up with a development talent to make this vision a reality, only then do we make progress.  Unfortunately, talent is so spread across the industry that design with the vision insight is about 1 in 255, and a development talent capable of  a reasonable translation is also about 1 in 255.  Thus, the odds of the two meeting are approximately 1 in 65025, and this is about how often we have a good game.  (Feel free to take my total shot in the dark numbers literally if you want to prove your anal retentiveness.  I'll savor your not having the attention span to read the last sentence with churlish zeal.)

Why even type shit like that? Is it humorous? Is it making a point? Goddamnit Geldon, you don't look any smarter when you shit out words like that.

[geldonyetich]

A) Like many forum disagreements I run into, we're quibbling over a matter of severity.  It was ambiguous when I heard "Diablo-style loot".  Is Ragnarok Online's loot system similar in many ways?  Hell yes (assuming I don't have them mixed up with Priston Tale).  Is Ragnarok Online's loot system identical to Diablo?  Hell no.   We're in agreement there, but disagreeing over the matter of severity you think you read.

But, what would be your point in emphasizing that Ragnarok Online's loot system differs?  Are you backing up the idea that a MMORPG with a loot system identical to Diablo would be an automatic success?  I think you know games better than that.

B) Yes, it was meant to be humorous.  Too subtle?  (Although the bit in parenthesis was my attempt to stave off people who love to call me on my humor as if it's surefire evidence I'm an idiot.  You can find adequate evidence of my lacking supreme and total knowledge of the universe without misinterpretation.)

[schild]

DIABLO STYLE LOOT ISN'T AMBIGUOUS. WHEN I SAY IT I MEAN IT! And of course a game with Diablo-style loot wouldn't be an automatic success. But it'd be a step above the dreck we deal with now - including WoW.

[Falconeer]

Auto Assault has Diablo Style loot. For real. They were Diablo lovers and copied it completely. They even admitted it in an interview. Basically they wanted to do Diablo on persistent wheels. Too bad they failed. Or better... too bad they ask a monthly fee for that.

[geldonyetich]

Diablo Style loot, and inventory, is a pretty good system but (we're in agreement here) it wouldn't guarentee a good game.  When I mentioned Ragnarok Online, I was just trying to provide an example, but like any analogy it's easy to find differences.  Auto Assault is another good analogy.

I think the loot is a bit of a supporting mechanic to the overall game, though.  Sure, it's part of the GUI, and the GUI is the game, and so Diablo-esque loot management is a game in itself, but that alone is not enough to be the game - at least not one that'd entertain me in particular.  That'll getcha 20% of the game, now lets see the development community come up with an equally good or better 80% of the game.  For me.  Because I'm too lazy to do it myself.

[Venkman]

Left field: someone summarize Diablo-style loot please. It's been, err, 7 or 8 years since I've played them, but the one I recall was early D2 (closed server), with a crapload of tradeable drops, slotted items that could be filled with gems (seen again in WoW), and the Horadric Cube where items could be combined for other such stuff (or was it that you used the Cube to set the gems, or break down items)?

I'm ignorant here. Help a guy out. My D2 install discs are long gone...

[geldonyetich]

If we're operating on a universal definition of Diablo-style loot, I'd be surprised.

But suffice to say, Blizzard innovated an interesting (and oft-copied) loot system in Diablo where an item has a number of random altering variables that set it apart from others.  A screenshot would probably be the best place to start.



Anything in blue is random, putting a difference between that cleaver and others you might recover, creating infinite suspense about wondering if perhaps the next cleaver will have higher damage, or life stealing, ect ect.

I suspect what schild might have been referring to had to do with the distribution method to an extent, but he'd have to explain it as I'm not a mind reader.

Note also the way the inventory works, with that slot-based mechanism.  It creates a minigame out of organizing your pack and also creates an illusion that the items have space.  Good mechanism there.  I wonder where Blizzard stole it.

[geldonyetich]

Anything in blue is random

My bad, the blue actually referred to modification occurring from other aspects on the item.  Any and all values on the item is actually random, limited only be algorithms that scale things to be appropriate to the level in which the item was found.  They probably had a table that during item regeneration had a 1 in 20 chance of tacking an extra effect on the item and this guy is showing off the result of what happens when he got 5 of those in a row on the same Cleaver.

[Cheddar]

OK, I am confused now.  How the hell did this thread get this way?  Err, not to piss off anyone, but I for one vote that Geldon gets a word limit.  Sorry man, but you have diarrhea.  Clean my toilet, please.

[geldonyetich]

So I'm now the sole cause of thread derailings.

...

My god, I'll rule the universe!

[schild]

I'll grant that Geldon hasn't actually hurt this thread other than being too broad with his definition of Diablo loot.

There are 6 things that make Diablo loot what it is.

1. The distribution system: Some things have higher drop rates on better items, but no one is chasing after that one shiny - this is where WoW fails, everyone knows what everyone wants.

2. .The randomization of attached attributes: This is something WoW could fix, sure everyone wants the...whatever, but that whatever could have different stats from your friends. Wouldn't fix problem #1 though.

3. Can't exist in a game that isn't replayable. Something that needs to be paired with this loot bit is randomization of actual levels and bosses and such - there's a reason all of this is being pimped so hard with Hellgate: London (SAVE ME FLAGSHIP), and there's a reason why PSU fails so bad, and there's a reason WoW will never have a loot system better than say... EQ.

4. There needs to be many tiers and sister types to the tiers - the set system was a good start, but I imagine Blizzard or Flagship will expand on this for the appropriate titles.

5. Class, level, and stat specific loot. Level specific loot is so... passe. We need, Thief Only, Dex 100 required on this shit. This is the ultimate carrot. Sure, you may be in a dungeon and kill something that drops a kickass sword - but you can't use it yet. What do you do? You grind to the point of using it of course. And then you grind some more because you just found a kickass pair of boots but you dumped all your points into dex when you leveled and you need more points in strength. Just one more time through Travincal, just one more time.

6. Most importantly? Tangible differences between every item. This is key. When I equip a short sword, I expect to see a shortsword - when I requip an icy short sword, I expect to see some sort of particle effect or different color blade. The most recent game that comes to mind that nails this is Summon Night 1 & 2 for the GBA from Atlus/Flight Plan.

Anyway, yea. There aren't any MMOGs out with this done right. They're all missing one or more of the things above. Most fuck up on #6, which is just goddamn unacceptable.

[stray]

OK, I am confused now.  How the hell did this thread get this way?  Err, not to piss off anyone, but I for one vote that Geldon gets a word limit.  Sorry man, but you have diarrhea.  Clean my toilet, please.

All threads derail. Terribly. Hell, we could even change the discussion to just talk about that (which I'm doing, of course).

Also, threads about NDA'd or, in this case, limited beta games, are meant to be derailed. Who gives a fuck (that's not a question).

[Furiously]

So any more codes - I'm bored...

[HRose]

1. The distribution system: Some things have higher drop rates on better items, but no one is chasing after that one shiny - this is where WoW fails, everyone knows what everyone wants.

Explain this one better?

[Strazos]

In WoW, there are definitive "best items," which drop from raid bosses. Not so in Diablo.

Or even if some bosses have set drops in Diablo, you can get a lot closer to that top gear in Diablo with random drops than you can in WoW.

Hell, in WoW there are practucally no such things as random drops at higher levels.